How are Turkish made shotguns?


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faizi
April 14, 2010, 12:05 AM
Hi,
How you guys compare Turkish made shotgun with Europian and American made shotguns?
Mossberg,Weatheby and few other American and Europion manufacturers import shotguns from Turkey and sale them under thier Flag.

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MAX100
April 14, 2010, 02:23 AM
Some of the Turkish made shotguns have had problems with parts breaking; firing pins, extractors, ejectors and locking blocks. They seem to be having problems somewhere in the heat treating process.


GC

MCgunner
April 14, 2010, 08:48 AM
I'd as soon own a Yildiz as a Maverick or 870 Express, personally. A 400 dollar stack barrel and its warranty/repair center is two hours from my house. I hear a lot of good things about these guns and they feel good to swing at the store. I'm considering one, not sure if I will, but I'm considering.

ArmedBear
April 14, 2010, 08:57 AM
They seem to be having problems somewhere in the heat treating process.


Of course, this has been true for decades, now. So we're not just looking at a learning curve, apparently.

MC- Want a stack barrel? Get a Lanber from CDNN for $500. These guns are well-proven. This is a clearance price, since they changed US distributors. It's a very good price for what you get -- probably the best deal in a NIB O/U today.

jmortimer
April 14, 2010, 10:01 AM
I would for sure get a Winchester SXP (aka 1300). Good gun- great price. Worth every penny. Fastest pump action produced.

MCgunner
April 14, 2010, 10:59 AM
ArmedBear, I will buy nothing in a stack barrel unless I can pick it up, check fit, swing it. Can't just shim the stock for fit on one of these things. Fit is important to me and it's not one of those things you can ask your friend about as everyone has different dimensions. If I could find one local, but if not.....:D

As I really don't NEED a shotgun at the moment, I'm putting it off for the day I can afford a gun in the 1500 dollar range, look at Cynergys and Red Labels and stuff. For now, I'm suppressing the stack barrel urge. :D

oletymer
April 14, 2010, 11:03 AM
For the most part Turkish guns are best left for someone else to buy.

chas08
April 14, 2010, 11:28 AM
MC- Want a stack barrel? Get a Lanber from CDNN for $500. These guns are well-proven.
+1 on the Lanber. I bought one from a small gunshop near my home in 2000 or 2001 for about $450 give or take. I was rebuilding my gun assortment after the flood of '98 so I gambled on the Lanber and have never regretted it. I had to have the 14.5 LOP shortened to 13.75 but I new that going in, since I was able to handle it first. The drop at heel and comb were fairly standard. It has chrome lined barrels and chambers, five stainless steel chokes, and a fit and finish that equal guns well into four digits. I had seen them a couple of years ago going for $700-$800, so $500 would be a very good deal right now.

Snarlingiron
April 14, 2010, 11:40 AM
Well I will disagree. I ain't skeerd.

Some of the Turkish made shotguns have had problems with parts breaking; firing pins, extractors, ejectors and locking blocks.

The same could be said of guns from the U.S., Italy, Japan, etc.

I have a Yildiz 12 ga. Gift from a friend. Nice shotgun. I actually shot my best round ever of sporting clays with it. Will it hold up to 20,000 rounds a year? Probably not. Will it last most folks for a lifetime of hunting and an occasional round of clays? Probably.

I also have a Stoeger M2000. It has been flawless. Great shotgun. Is it finished as well as my Cynergy? No. But it cost 1/4th the cost of the Cynergy.

I will wager that most of the nay sayers have never owned a Turkish gun and likely haven't had their hands on one either.

Now with all that said, if I had the choice between a Yildiz and a Lanber for $500.00 I would get the Lanber (made in Spain where they have turned out lots of great shotguns and lots of cheap clunkers too). The Lanber is one of the good ones. A buddy of mine bought one and it is a very nice well made shotgun.

You have to evaluate the individual shotgun and not just paint everything made in a certain Country as being no good. Remember when "Made in Japan" meant the product was cheap junk? I do. It pretty much means the opposite now.

chas08
April 14, 2010, 12:04 PM
I handled a CZ Bobwhite 16 ga. at the Cabelas in Buda, Tx, a while back. It certainly didn't look or feel like a POS. But aside from the fact Cabelas wanted as much or more for it used, as you could have bought it NIB elsewhere. I couldn't help but wonder, Why is it, such a new gun is on the used rack?

MCgunner
April 14, 2010, 12:18 PM
I was in a Gander Mountain not long ago, bought a pistol there. But, most of their pricing was just plain scary. Sure had a lot of volume, probably 'cause they couldn't sell it at what they were pricing it. :rolleyes:

oneounceload
April 14, 2010, 01:15 PM
When it comes to doubles, whether SxS or O/U, generally speaking, you'll find three basic groups - inexpensive and not well made; middle range with good mechanicals but lacking some of the finer touches and not engraved,; and then there are the high-end guns that can go to stratospheric heights with engraving.

The differences between each group can be night and day. The lower end guns tend to be clunky and chunky, like holding a 2x4, the wood to metal fit and finish is sub-par, the barrels may, or may not, be well-regulated, the parts may or may not be properly made and heat treated. As a general rule, these aspects tend to apply to guns under $1,000.

The second batch tend to have most of those aspects properly corrected, are a little more lively in the hands, have a better "feel" to them and run from $1,000 to about $5,000.

The third group, starting at $5,000 and going upwards past the cost of a new 4 BR home, have all of the minute details one would expect from a "bespoke" hand-built gun. They are literally an extension of you and your arms, are gorgeous eye-candy to behold, and move with a "feel" second to none.

Are there certain exceptions to some of the groupings? Certainly, especially if you look at older used guns made in the 20s, 30s, 50s, 60s and 70s - and they can sometimes be had for a mere pittance of what they would cost new today.

Turkish guns, as a general consensus, tend to fall in the lower category. It isn't that a great gun CAN'T be built, it just seems they aren't there yet.

Remember it took the Japs a while to go from "Jap Crap" to top of the auto and electronic fields. Maybe one day Turkey will get there - IMO, they're not there yet

faizi
April 14, 2010, 01:37 PM
Best reply so far.

MAX100
April 14, 2010, 01:55 PM
The same could be said of guns from the U.S., Italy, Japan, etc.

But it's not.

Mossberg had a problem with firing pin breakage with it's Turkish made SR o/u shotgun when first came out. Visit the Charles Daly forums and read some of the post. I am not saying all Turkish made shotguns have problems but some do.

The Stoeger M2000 has had a few problems in the past but Benelli has taken care of them.


GC

earlthegoat2
April 14, 2010, 02:24 PM
DeHaan shotguns are made in Turkey and I would consider them a more middle teir shotgun. Upon close inspection though, they even have some tell tale make-this-as-cheap-as-possible corners cut.

I tend to think you better just stay away from Turkish shotguns. The best gun they make is the Stoeger/Beretta Couger which is a handgun.

There are some fans of Turkish made shotguns out there but those people are usually the more inexperienced shotgunners or they just want a beat around gun for the inlaws.

RUT
April 14, 2010, 02:38 PM
As you'd expect, they're turkeys!! :p

ArmedBear
April 14, 2010, 03:11 PM
Remember it took the Japs a while to go from "Jap Crap" to top of the auto and electronic fields.

As often as this is repeated, there's one problem with it. It's not true.

Japanese businesses initially targeted low-end manufacturing, for export as quick cash generators. Cheap toys and poor quality commodity items flooded the US marked "Made in Japan."

However, their automobiles were well-made from day 1. The car makers were not the same companies, and they had different strategies. Toyota copied Brit sports cars and American Jeeps, and they improved on them if there was a reason. Nissan/Datsun copied the BMW 2002, and their cars were good, from day 1. The same goes for electronics. The Japanese copied European manufacturing, then improved on it.

Japanese electronics and automobiles are not analagous to Turkish shotguns, nor do they have anything to do with cheap stamped-out toys that were "Made in Japan" back in the 1960s (must... resist... gratuitous... Remington... reference...:D).

See, the Turkish shotgun makers have had plenty of European, Japanese, and even American products to copy, for decades. Have they learned how to make guns to European standards? Have they (like Japanese automakers) actually improved on them? No.

There's no comparison between making poor versions of a mature product for decades, and improving on, then dominating, auto and electronic markets. Japanese "continual improvement" is not just a meaningless buzz phrase, no matter what Cerberus bean counters think.

Japanese success is the result of specific plans and actions by Japanese business. One cannot assume that, since Japanese cars are good, Turkish shotguns will be. Google "cargo cult." It seems to be a natural human tendency, and as such it can be a common problem in the business world.

A given shotgun, made in Turkey, or anywhere else, might be a POS, or a fine piece. You have to judge them one at a time -- but it's a lot safer to mail-order a B-gun...

Snarlingiron
April 14, 2010, 03:47 PM
Japanese success is the result of specific plans and actions by Japanese business. One cannot assume that, since Japanese cars are good, Turkish shotguns will be. Google "cargo cult." It seems to be a natural human tendency, and as such it can be a common problem in the business world.

A wonderful example of this is the Kwanon camera. U.S. GIs began to bring these things back from Japan after WWII. Great high quality camera for not much money. From these humble beginnings grew the present day Canon corporation. Widely recognized as one of the best of the best Camera and optic manufacturers. You are totally correct, in that they developed all this from carefully formulated plans to emulate the great German manufacturers such as Leica. Realizing that they could not approach the quality of the Leica with current technology. So, they hired R&D folks and engineers and figured out how to approach that quality at a much lower cost.

But it goes to exactly what I was trying to say. There are some well made guns coming from Turkey. Why would we assume that they are not trying to emulate the Japanese in striving for better quality at a price point? Not saying that they are there yet.

And the fact is whether it is / was right when I was a youngster, "Made in Japan" was a mark of inferior quality. Even on those products that didn't deserve it.

Just like "Made in Turkey" is a mark of inferior quality on guns from Turkey, even when they don't deserve the lable.

oneounceload
April 14, 2010, 04:07 PM
What made Japanese products from garbage to quality was listening to an American - Deming. Not going to go into it and hijack the thread, plenty out there to read.

The thing is - the Turkish guns builders have the same access to the same quality CNC, EDM and robotics that are used by everyone else, yet somewhere in their QA/QC, they still have issues. I believe as the major European makers lose business due to high cost, Turkey will emerge as a maker of "decent" guns. I doubt they will ever rise to the level of the Euro "best" makers from Italy, England, Spain and Germany.

Right now, most of those folks are seriously hurting to stay afloat. Companies like AyA, Arrietta et al who make a few hundred guns a year are struggling in this economy. Whether Turkey can swoop in and get market share remains to be seen

ArmedBear
April 15, 2010, 02:06 PM
somewhere in their QA/QC, they still have issues

If QA/QC is their problem, they have never even heard of Deming...:)

JohnBT
April 15, 2010, 03:35 PM
www.hugluarms.com/about_us.htm

The history of Huglu is, or mirrors, the history of shotgun making in Turkey. There are a lot of home craftsmen making a piece here, or doing some engraving there, and they have been willing to work to the ordering company's price point. There is a factory, but notice the part about the huge amount of addition square footage dedicated to work rooms.

The quality of the hand work can vary quite a bit from what I've seen.

______________

Here is some information about the history of Huglu.


The shotguns we have to offer are manufactured in Huglu, a small town with a population of 3,500 on the slope of the Taurus Mountains in central Turkey.

Gun craftsmanship was brought to Huglu by two master gunsmiths who learned maintenance and repair of guns while they were in the army during World War I. They returned home and started their first workshop around 1914. In a few years, the business became the most popular industry in the town. Other gunsmiths, from their separate workshops, began to support this business. As a group they decided to establish a cooperative to better their production and marketing strategies. Now, there are more than 100 separate workshops, with more than 600 craftsmen, and they employ another 500 workers. Approximately 65,000 shotguns are manufactured each year in Huglu, of which 15,000 are over/unders, 10,000 are side-by-sides, 15,000 pump action, and 25,000 semi automatic models. The main factory building is 107,640 sq. ft. and there is 538,200 sq. ft. of separate workshops.

Our Master Craftsmen, with over 75 years of experience, have developed a premium firearm with most of the work being done by hand.

The models presented on this web site have been designed to our specifications. In order to be able to compete with the world's top brands sold here in the U.S. these models are provided with top quality workmanship at the most reasonable prices with the most popular options included. Only the most experienced craftsmen of Huglu work on the shotguns brought to this country.

oneounceload
April 15, 2010, 04:06 PM
If QA/QC is their problem, they have never even heard of Deming

And while the Japanese have, perhaps the Turks have not yet embraced his ideas

oneounceload
April 15, 2010, 04:13 PM
JohnBT - The English gun trade, and the Spanish, and to some degree, the Italian are also set up the same way. Many an English "BEST" gun had someone in his shop make the locks, while another struck the barrels, a third filed the action, etc. In England, it was who did the last file stroke that allowed, in their minds, Purdey, BOSS, et al to place their name on a gun and call it their own. Whole other companies have been making guns or parts of them for different firms. They have managed on those other countries to get it right. Again, IMO, Turkey just isn't quite there yet - their consistency from gun to gun remains suspect at this pint in time

nicksterdemus
April 15, 2010, 04:43 PM
I don't shoot that often and I was in the market for a budget O/U.

I bought a Yildiz youth model. Aluminum receiver makes for a light gun, chrome 26" brls are durable, easy to clean and the furniture is nice..

It comes w/3 yr warranty by Briley should something go awry.

430 simoleons + tax & I get 5% CC purchase back in a gift card through Academy.

I could do w/o the laser etching, yet I'm sure some young lad would think it kewl.

Yildiz did have an issue w/soft firing pins, but that has been addressed and Brileys has those, coil springs and some small parts available.

I wanted a light weight O/U in 20 gauge and the Yildiz looked good and the price seemed fair.


I already had purchased a Charles Daly HD 12 in nickel through CDNN for 200 clams.

I had to strip it down, clean, lube, reassemble and rack the slide a couple of hundred times and repeat as necessary.

It smoothed up nicely w/little time and elbow grease.

Shortly after CD announces it's going belly-up and I cruise by Waly-world.

They have a CD semi-auto in 20 gauge marked down to 280 bucks.

I offer them 250 & they honor my offer.

No, it's no B-gun either, yet it's light, gas operated, works and the price is right.

Even though it's a 3" chamber there's a good chance I'll only run 2 3/4" shells through the Turkish Akkar wonder.

I don't shoot that much so I went this way and if I get burned, dem's da breaks and I'll grab one of the others.

I can afford to wait on parts if need be or scrounge around looking.

hoghunting
April 16, 2010, 12:57 AM
I did some work for a client and took a Weatherby SA-08 in trade. It is a very well built shotgun with amazing wood. It has a perfect fit and balance for me and has been 100% reliable. I haven't looked at other Turkish firearms, but this one is better than most American semi-auto shotguns I've used.

ArmedBear
April 16, 2010, 12:34 PM
And while the Japanese have, perhaps the Turks have not yet embraced his ideas


Deming summed up what he thought of QC/QA thusly: “You can not inspect quality into the product; it is already there.”

oneounceload
April 16, 2010, 07:22 PM
AB - absolutely correct - tis a shame that the arrogant US mfg. companies in the 50s, 60,s and 70s. didn't listen - we are paying for it now. In the gun trade, it seems the transition takes an extra 20 years or so....but we are seeing it now in the way Remington is making guns, as well as the rest

nicksterdemus
April 17, 2010, 10:39 AM
http://www.trimports.com/commerce/ccp1988-huglu-eagle-

ultralight-1-0847.htm

$667 & new model.

Not your usual Turkish offering w/lightweight steel

receiver...
------
At least I think it's not Aluminum alloy. The description is a little vague. It has steel inserts @ the hinge pins and the breech face, but it doesn't say the rest is aluminum. All it sez about the receiver is that it is black.

I e-mailed a query, so time will tell.

JohnBT
April 17, 2010, 04:36 PM
"The English gun trade, and the Spanish, and to some degree, the Italian are also set up the same way."

The English are rightfully famous because they made the system work. The Italians have done a fair job, and then there are the Spaniards and Turks. They certainly have produced some good guns, but getting one seems to be as chancy as rolling dice.

JT

tactikel
April 17, 2010, 05:24 PM
I have a Huglu 20 ga OU (now imported by CZ) and have found it to be a reliable, well made field gun. I've had it for 5 years and have about 3000 rounds thru it with no problems. It's my favorite upland game gun. While not as finely finished as a Beretta Onyx (and a few ounces heavier) it has served me well, and cost at the time $500 less. My friend just bought a CZ 28 ga SxS-Its very nice and he has had no problems, taking it afield for Woodcock/Grouse this last season.
I have a Browning Superposed 12 ga (pre-war) and would never take it into the swamps, cut overs, popple stands we bust for Grouse! Is the Huglu as well made? heck no, but it is certainly a serviceable gun for most applications.
Never buy a shotgun you cant hold, shoulder, and swing to see if it is right for you.

natman
April 18, 2010, 03:22 AM
DeHaan shotguns are made in Turkey and I would consider them a more middle teir shotgun. Upon close inspection though, they even have some tell tale make-this-as-cheap-as-possible corners cut.

I tend to think you better just stay away from Turkish shotguns. The best gun they make is the Stoeger/Beretta Couger which is a handgun.

There are some fans of Turkish made shotguns out there but those people are usually the more inexperienced shotgunners or they just want a beat around gun for the inlaws.
The DeHaan is a Huglu. Underneath the fancy wood and engraving it is the exact same shotgun sold by CZ for $750. Personally I'd rather have a bottom of the line Beretta with plain walnut and no engraving.

Silly Rabbit
April 18, 2010, 09:58 AM
bought one new, ok not really great, found a used beretta for same price, beretta kicks it butt for fit/finish/feel would stick italian or american even if you have to wait it out to get a used "deal"

Y-man
April 18, 2010, 11:08 AM
I agree about the QC issues with *some* Turkish shotguns. While Huglu and others might be "decent", there are a few other manufacturers you guys in the US might not be aware of. They manufacture POS shotguns and ship them to Africa, and Asia where we snap them up.

I bought one sometime back: a "Magnum EFE" that was "Made in by EFE-Turkey" (Can you imagine their grammar?!) 12ga Semi-Auto PGO, 7+1, smoothbore. I modified to fit a stock and cleaned it up. It served me for sometime, I used it for barely a year, and put barely 300rds of birdshot and slugs through it: did some hunting, and target shooting... Then one day, while hoping for some fowl on my table that night: I squeezed my trigger, and "Click!". Cleared it, reloaded, found the lucky bird: and "Click" again!

I unloaded it, and gingerly kept it in my truck then went home.
I took the shotgun apart, and discovered to my dismay that the firing pin was broken!

Of course: this was a major loss: there are no gunsmiths in my country that can fix this, (Of course we have very good smiths who can build guns from scratch here, but clean repairs? No.)

Well, I seem to have "lost" this shotgun: though, I have used the barrel to fabricate molds for home-made slugs, and I have kept the trigger group to use in one of my next projects: a crossbow!

I have a good old American Mossberg 500A now, I'm still working on training myself not to pull trigger twice instead of pumping before pulling the second time! (Still transitioning from Semi-auto to pump action...)

No cheap Turkish shotguns for me any more!

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