[Smiley]

I was going to buy some .223 ammo for paper punching and just to have for on the side SHTF stuff. I always buy from ammoman.com and I was looking at the russian stuff. I know many of you are going to say to not use that garbage. Normally I would agree with you however I have a close range buddy that has used nothing but the russian stuff for many thousands of rds through his bushy and never had a problem. He barely cleans the thing either and he gets excellent shot results.

My question is is there any advantage to getting the 62gr stuff over the 55gr? Are there any disadvantages?

I have a 16" dissapator and a 16"shorty AK bushmaster that I use.

[MiniZ]

I'm not sure what your barrel twist is, but I am going to guess 1/9. You should have no problems with either bullet weight as 1/9 is kind of a "catch all". Before investing in an entire case of Russian, you may want to try a few boxes of the particular brand first. Some ARs do not do well with steel case ammo, while others will thrive on it. My ARs puke on it.

[KW]

Best bet is to get some of both and try them out. Either weight should group fairly well from a 1/9 barrel. See if you gun likes either.

[Wildalaska]

Put your gunsmith on retainer when you shoot the Russian stuff...

WildwishboneAlaska

[swingset]

Put your gunsmith on retainer when you shoot the Russian stuff...

Even if it bungs up an extractor (not likely, I've run 5,000 rounds+ of Wolf & SB through mine with no hiccups), so what!? You replace it and you're back in business. He's shooting an AR, not an $8,000 Weatherby. AR's are easy and cheap to fix IF they break.

[Deep Blue]

Is there any 5.56mm ammo that doesn't cause a huge ball of flame to spit from a 16" barrel? I bought a case of Federal brand American Eagle ammo, and the muzzle flash is almost frightening. It throws a flame at least 2' long, visible even on overcast days.

[444]

If you are plinking/causually paper punching then what you get doesn't matter as long as the gun runs. If there is any chance of using the ammo for defense or hunting then the choice becomes much more important.

As I have mentioned on here a number of times I use Wolf ammo for plinking, and practice ammo. It runs flawlessly from my guns and provides pretty decent accuracy. Never had a problem of any kind in well over 6000 rounds so far. However, I wouldn't trust their bullets to perform the way they are supposed to on flesh. I have no experience, but my life is worth more than the cost of a box of good ammo. I would stick with the 55 grain bullet. The 5.56 cartridge in a FMJ configuration depends of fragmentation and tumbling to obtain best lethal results. This in turn depends on having adequate velocity. The lighter 55 grain bullet is faster to start with and maintains that velocity longer than the heavier bullet. According to the stuff I am reading from out last few military conflicts, the GIs were much happier with the 55 grain stuff than they are with the heavier bullets.
Personally, I would simply invest in a few or more boxes of good defense ammo. Again, personally, I would go with a good civilian softpoint 55 grain bullet. Then I would buy another ammo for general range use.

[Jick42]

You might look at some 69gr also. All depends on the Twist of the barrel.

[Nero Steptoe]

My Bushy Shorty does well with 69gr. Sierra hpbt match bullets. Also does well with lighter bullets. Give Bushmaster a call and get their opinion of Wolf ammo. I personally wouldn't want the stuff in the same city as my Bushy.

[TN-popo]

DeepBlue...GeorgiaArms "Canned Heat" 55gr.FMJ and 62gr.SS-109 are both very low flash and accurate from my 16" bare barrel.
georgia-arms.com

Federal M193 and Winchester Q3131A were pretty bright (with Federal being the brighter of the two and Win being more accurate in my rifles).
Best.

[c_yeager]

Personally i recomend winchester Q3131A. Its milspec and pretty good stuff. Also federal XM193 is pretty much the same. This is the older 55grain military ball that was replaced with SS-109 (M885 i think is our designation for it).

[Texas Gunman]

I know of alot of AR owners using Wolf ammo, based on their results, it is safe enough to use, they havent had any problems with using this Wolf ammo. I use brass cased GI ammo in my Bushy A2M4 sporting a 16" barrel. I have ran 60rds of Russian ammo, just to see if my bushy would digest this type of ammo, it digested this ammo without a hitch, but it dirty burning ammo. I'd recently purchased some Wolf for plinking, figure on saving my brass cased ammo for shtf. :D

55gr and 62gr works great in Bushy shorties.


TG

[DeputyVaughn]

I've pretty much settled on using the 62gr Silver Bear stuff for my Bushmaster. Ammoman has it for about 2.39 a box. CTD has it for 2.89 a box. (If your already ordering something and already paying shipping it may be worth it to pay the extra per box price.) Feeds good, not any dirtier than federal. Accuracy is still above my skill level.

Scott

[ny32182]

DeepBlue...GeorgiaArms "Canned Heat" 55gr.FMJ and 62gr.SS-109 are both very low flash and accurate from my 16" bare barrel.
georgia-arms.com


I'll second this... GA arms 55gr FMJ has the least muzzle flash of any .223 I've tried, although it still flashes a good bit out of my 16", not so much at all of my 20". Before I bought the GA arms, I ran PMC for a while. Much bigger flash out of both lengths, although it burned a lot cleaner, so I might switch back when I run out of GA arms. Both run 100%.

As to wolf, .223 would be the last caliber I would ever use. My buddy uses it in his M96 and doesn't have problems, but he doesn't get the gun hot enough to melt the laquer. I get mine heated up pretty good sometimes, and also don't want the steel case to wear out my ejectors. I plan to use it in 7.62x39 though.

[JNewell]

55 gr USGI spec for its higher velocity.

If you shoot steel-cased ammo, expect to replace extractors more often.

[Obiwan]

For punching paper 55 gr is fine

For putting holes in bad guys...go with the heavier bullets

[Preacherman]

Out of a short barrel, you lose quite a bit of velocity, which affects the terminal performance of the bullet. I'd stick with 55gr. for the shorter barrel, and - if you want to - go with 62gr. or heavier out of a 20" or longer barrel. Personally, I stick with 55gr. out of any length barrel... YMMV.

As for Wolf, I totally agree with WildAlaska and others who hate the stuff. Jim Clark Jr. of Clark Custom Guns says his gunsmiths get a good deal of gainful employment fixing extractors and firing pins in 1911's and AR's that have fired this stuff. Also, Olympic Arms posts this very explicit warning on their Web site (see here (http://www.olyarms.com/usa.html) for the source, and click on "Ammunition Warning"):Lacquer Coated Ammo

If you plan on using lacquer-coated ammo in your Olympic Arms AR-15, please be aware of the following. We have received many recent phone calls, as well as some rifles sent in for repair, complaining about reliability problems in their Oly Arms AR's. The first question usually asked is, "What ammunition are you using?" The answers to the question, as well as seeing the chambers of the rifles that were sent in are showing us that lacquer coated ammo is clogging the chambers badly.

What we are seeing is that once the chamber in the rifles gets hot, it is melting the lacquer off of the casings, and leaving a gelatinous goo in your chamber. Under continuous fire, this is usually not noticed, but once you stop, the barrel cools, the lacquer sets and you now cannot chamber and/or properly extract your ammunition. You will experience this in AR-15's much more frequently than other rifles such as the SKS and AK/MAC variants. In most cases the 7.62x39 rifles have chambers cut to the large end of the safety spectrum so that feeding and reliability is uncompromised by the type of ammunition or the consistency of the case dimensions. AR style rifles, and especially those from Oly Arms will have tighter chambers so that you can experience a greater level of accuracy that these rifles are capable of performing. Olympic chambers specifically are cut to 5.56 NATO specs via Clymer reamers in all button rifled barrels, and minimum SAAMI spec .223 Remington on all SUM Ultramatch barrels. Our rifles will provide superior accuracy, partly based on that fact.

Major brands of lacquer coated ammo we have seen are Wolf, most Russian ammo (even if it has the Remington head stamp), Norinco (or most Chinese) and most all former eastern block countries.

Our recommendations: DO NOT USE LACQUER COATED AMMO. Otherwise, be prepared for the consequences. Additionally, most lacquer-coated ammo utilizes steel cases instead of brass. BAD FOR YOUR CHAMBER.

The Consequences: Poor feeding, poor extraction, poor accuracy, and an impossible to clean chamber possibly resulting in a rifle that simply does not work.

Although Olympic Arms only warrants their firearms when used with new production brass cased US manufactured ammo, we would be remiss to think that the bulk of our customers do not use remanufactured, imported or reloaded ammo. We know that they will, and do. The reason that our warranty does not cover the use of this ammo is as much to protect you, as it is our product and our product. If you are using factory US new manufactured brass cased ammo, and something goes wrong and the rifle is damaged, the ammo manufacturer will usually take care of any repair costs. If not, and the damage can be proven to be the fault of the ammo, you have some sort of course of action you can take against that manufacturer to recover some or all of the expenses of the repairs. If you use foreign lacquer coated ammo as an example, you have NO options.

Is your rifle worth it?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

What we are seeing is that once the chamber in the rifles gets hot, it is melting the lacquer off of the casings, and leaving a gelatinous goo in your chamber.

I am going to take issue with the folks at Olympic on the above warning. Shooting some Russian ammo will cause a gelatinous goo in the chamber; but in my experience, it isn't lacquer; but the red sealant used to seal the bullet at the cartridge neck. Check the pictures of pulled Wolf ammo at http://www.ammo-oracle.com/ and you'll see that they are quite generous with the sealant.

I have attempted to heat a fired steel case to the point that the lacquer melts off and forms a gelatinous goo and I just can't do it in a regular oven (up to 575F). So that tends to suggest to me that lacquer-coated steel cases are not the issue.

Also the malfunctions I've seen relating to Russian ammo invariably show a red goo in the chamber, and the lacquer on the steel cases is green.

This minor nitpick is relevant to the use of Russian ammo in ARs because newer lots of the Wolf ammo have done away with the sealant.

[444]

I hate to get into this since it has been cussed and discussed almost an infinite number of times, but that stuff about the laquer melting in the chamber is rubbish. I was at a friends house one day and we were having this very discussion since we both shoot a LOT of Wolf ammo and have never had any kind of a problem at all. We took a fired case of Wolf ammo out to the garage and heated it until cherry red with an acetylene torch and then scraped with with the business end of a screwdriver. NOTHING came off the case. This is far hotter than you would ever get a cartridge case in any firearm; I don't care if it is a belt fed machine gun. If you ever got a case anywhere near this hot the rounds would be cooking off immediately.
Extractors. I have never replaced an extractor in an AR15 due to wear. I remove my extractor every time I clean the rifle and have never noticed any wear at all. For those not familiar with the AR15 extractor, it is removed (or replaced) by drifting out a single pin which is usually done with your firing pin. Removing or replacing a firing pin requires the removal of a cotter key which comes out with your fingernail. I was taught to disassemble my bolt carrier group when cleaning the rifle in basic training. As far as I am concerned, any concern about steel cases damaging your extractor or firing pin are unfounded. I KNOW that any concern about the replacement of these parts is something that could be done by a four year old child with 30 seconds of instruction.
For that matter, how does Wolf or other steel cased ammo cause increased wear on the firing pin ? The firing pin never touches the case, only the primer ?
The statement by Olympic Arms leaves out a critical piece of the puzzle. Oly Arms does not use a chrome plated chamber and barrel. There are those that say this is a silly waste of money and is not nessessary. If you are thinking along those lines, re-read the statement by Olympic Arms and think again. None of this is an issue with your Bushmaster. Shoot and enjoy the superior design. Bushmaster rifle generally cost more than Olympic Arms; there is a reason for that.

[DFBonnett]

Check this out...


http://www.ammo-oracle.com/

[Preacherman]

Thanks for that link, DFB - I was about to post it myself. From that Q&A page:Q. Is Wolf-brand (or other steel-cased) .223 ammo okay to shoot in my AR15?

Well, if you didn't start a flame war with the M193 v. M855 question, you have now.

Many former Eastern-Bloc countries use steel ammo casings in place of brass, as the cost of steel is much less. The steel casings would quickly rust if left untreated, so one of two methods is used to treat the steel cases: lacquer or "copper-washing." Most cases are coated with a protective lacquer, usually green or gray in color, which is the cheapest solution. Copper-washed ammo is a blotchy bronze color and usually the entire loaded round is coated. Copper-washed ammo is usually only found in the East-Bloc calibers. The lacquered cases generally work without problems in most calibers, but 5.56/.223 is often an exception. Unlike the Soviet-designed cases, the 5.56 cartridge has very little taper to the cases and its length to diameter ratio is very large. The result of this is that 5.56 ammo has more friction during cartridge extraction and comparatively less extractor surface area. This usually isn't a problem with brass cases, but when lacquer is factored in, stoppages often occur.

Often the lacquer on the cases is not evenly applied and visible drips and runs can be seen. When the chamber of the gun heats up from firing, the lacquer will often melt and coat the surface of the chamber, in effect gluing the case into the chamber. In some cases, the extractor will be able to remove the case (though wear on the extractor is increased), while in others, the extractor will slip off the case or pull through the rim. When this happens, not only does it cause a stoppage, but the case often has to be removed by inserting a cleaning rod down the bore and pounding out the case. Then the lacquer must be scrubbed out of the chamber, which is not an easy process.

To be sure, some people report no problems using lacquered ammo and enjoy the fact that it is available at very low cost. Nevertheless, enough people have problems with it sooner or later that it may be advisable to avoid lacquered 5.56 ammo altogether.I guess this confirms the other warnings that have been posted. For those who've never had a problem with Wolf or similar ammo, good for you, and I wish you many years of happy shooting with the stuff. I use it myself in my ComBloc firearms, which were designed for that type of ammo. However, it's not getting anywhere near my AR's, 1911's, or other guns...

[444]

I have said it before, and I will say it again.
When you have done something, somewhere in the neighborhood of 6000 times you tend to start believe the results you are seeing.
Having someone tell you that this experience was a fallacy because an internet website says so is kind of hard to swollow.
So, you go out and try it again, and again, and again, and again and the results remain the same every time. You test the specific claims made and you can't reproduce them with normal or even abnormal conditions.
After awhile, you realize what is true and what is often repeated internet rumor and outright speculation.



This would be similar to someone asking if you car can go 50 mph. You say, of course it can; I do it almost every day. I can do it on command, in front of witnesses anytime I want to. And they tell you that you are out of your mind because they read on the internet that it isn't true.

[MicroBalrog]

Put your gunsmith on retainer when you shoot the Russian stuff...

You called?:D

[JNewell]

FWIW, I have a lot more than 6k reps on the extractor issue and I have worn one out on a BM. Also FWIW, have done same w/ Colts and not had this issue. Since the BM's extractor failed, I keep a spare in the buttstock. While I'm FWIWing, I'll add that I've never fired a steel cased in any rifle, so that failure was with brass cases only...it's possible that the BM part was bad to start with. I shoot with someone who's got a registered M16 and that rifle breaks pins and wears out extractors. The extractor design is not IMO a strong point of the design but it is easily serviced -- if you have a spare.

[444]

............or, if this extractor issue keeps you awake at night, you could buy the hard chromed extractor from Les Bear.