Gun safe vs. poured vault

With any luck, I'll be building my dream house this summer. I've lived in the city long enough, and I'm willing to make the 40 minute commute to live out on my farm with the rest of my family.

I own a good gun safe, but the problem is that the sucker is just too small. I'm faced with the choice of buying another safe and using two safes, or buying a bigger safe and selling the small one, or pouring a reinforced concrete walk-in vault when we build the house. I've found a couple of companies that sell vault doors, and they're cheaper or at least no more expensive than most decent gun safes.

It will be above ground, poured as part of the garage if I go that way.

Does anyone have any experience with poured concrete vaults?

How are they about humidity? Are they as secure as a good safe?

Any advice or thoughts would be appreciated.

KR

Two safes.

Maybe even add a couple cheap "gun lockers." (for guns that are used a lot)

The bigger you make a single safe, the more guns you will have "in the back of the safe."
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Well, I'm no expert, but if **I** had the chance to make a concrete safe, I'd jump at it. I'm assuming you can have top, bottom, all sides of somewhat thick and reinforced concrete. I'd look into what would make it quite slow for the internal temperature to rise, so that internal contents would not be damaged during fire, and I'd go for it. Concrete has got to be cheaper than steel! Do some searching on the internet to see what other people have done.

By all means do a concrete vault. They're far more secure than a steel safe. However, if I were to build a new room or a new house, I'd consider also installing a floor vault. Basically a hinged opening directly into the slab in a place that could easily be concealed with carpet and a furniture. It's not something that would be practical for everyday storage, but it's more a "what if?" kind of thing.

do the following put you gun safe inside of the area where will you will pour you bigger safe. Make sure that you put a lot of steel in your poured concrete safe. Prior to pouring weld the steel together. Also anything can be broken into. There are diamond saws. A properly constructed safe will slow a thief down and there will noise. In the slab of your house add a hidden floor safe for what you absolutely can not lose and tell no one about it period.

If you build your gun safe into the foundation, you better be darn sure you'll never have to move.

If you build your gun safe into the foundation, you better be darn sure you'll never have to move.
I wouldn't necessarily say that. While it would make it less convenient for you, it wouldn't detract from the selling value of the house. In fact, it would only increase it.

Your biggest advantage in the opportunity to build a safe as part of your home construction is that you can do it somewhere inconspicuous.

You could have it be off the basement and disguise the door, or have it in the floor as has been mentioned. Anything can be broken into given the right tools and a little time, but not if they don't even know it's there.

What about humidity? Doesn't new concrete throw off a lot of moisture for several months if not longer?

Sure, it will eventually cure and dry I guess but I think I'd want to talk to some concrete experts and find a way to line the outer sides of the pour with something that will absolutely block moisture from coming through the concrete once the pour itself had dried.

Doing this right for something as sensitive as gun metal deserves a lot of study and input from real experts in concrete bunker design. I ain't one ... good luck. Sounds like a great idea to me if you can get it designed properly.

Add electricity to your room, lighting, and if possible, HVAC to keep temp and humidity fairly constant. Make sure you have a drain or other means in case of a flood or busted water heater. Recess the locking door behind a regular door with something like "Danger - High Voltage" or similar - most smash and grab guys won't bother looking in something like that

You could have it be off the basement and disguise the door, or have it in the floor as has been mentioned.
A basement safe room would be nice but I would not put a floor safe in the basement. A busted pipe would wreak havoc in it. Build it a good foot or more off the ground if in the basement and look into a good dehumidifier system (I'm sure a room would take more than a goldenrod)

In my neck of the woods there are a number of homes I have seen with bomb shelters built in the basement. A left over from the 50's. Now they are in the basement not above round like the OP asked about, but all the ones I have been in were definitely cold and damp. Good for a root cellar but not guns. At the least I would have electricity so you could have a dehumidifier or heater going if needed.

When I build my house I plan on doing the same thing. But mine is going to be nice, I'll put in a drop ceiling, with lights, HVAC, stud the whole room and rock it, etc.

Sounds like an ideal gun storage area. I suspect you'll need a dehumidifier though as I agree with those that think moisture from the concrete might be a problem. There's probably a sealant paint or coating that would minimize, or maybe eliminate the dampness.

I built a concrete walk in vault in my basement when we built our house about 5 years ago. I installed HVAC and electricity and have never had a problem with moisture. We built our house a mile from where the wife grew up, and we don't ever plan on moving.

My room is constructed of poured reinforced concrete 8" thick on all sides and the roof. The floor is only 4" thick, but has a 24" footer all around the outside edge.

Moisture would only be an issue if built below ground. If in your garage (as you originally mentioned) you can easily ventilate it without compromising security. But pouring concrete can get expensive quick. And the kind you would need isn't like the 80lbs bags you can get a hardware store. But since you'd more then likely be having a slab poured for your house anyways, it's not a big deal.

As some others have mentioned, you should also have electric run into it. That way you can sell it as a tool room or work room. You can even make it classy with some nice wood paneling. All in all good luck. Wish I could do the same.

Above ground concrete vault, with gun safes inside! You're talking about my dream here, on private land of course, with a private range.

The bigger you make a single safe, the more guns you will have "in the back of the safe."

If I do pour it, and I'm leaning that way pretty strongly, it will be a walk-in affair, with guns down both walls and the back wall. It would make my guns much easier to get at. Right now I have about 50 long guns in a safe designed for half that many. It takes me a loooong time to get anything out of the back, and that's an issue I want to fix.

Make sure that you put a lot of steel in your poured concrete safe. Prior to pouring weld the steel together.

That's good advice; I'll add that to my checklist. Thank you.

You could have it be off the basement and disguise the door

If I do the concrete vault, I'll pour an extra run of footer and set it in the garage, not the basement. Having it above ground will help on the humidity. I do like the idea of concealing the door though. I'll have to work on that.

Add electricity to your room, lighting, and if possible, HVAC to keep temp and humidity fairly constant. Make sure you have a drain or other means in case of a flood or busted water heater.

Also good advice. It's easy enough to add those things before the pour, but much harder after. I'll definitely take this advice.

This is one of the things I love about this forum; A lot of good advice I wouldn't have thought of on my own. I'd love to hear any other thoughts or suggestions.

For the record, if I pour, I'll pour 12" walls and the vault would sit on the garage floor, which I'll reinforce heavily and pour at 6 or 8". The trick will be setting the slab for the top, but I'm contacting the concrete, so that shouldn't be too bad.

KR

For moisture, you'd have to epoxy coat the cement or form some sort of vapor barrier. Moisture seeks a constant level through nearly any material.

I'd suggest a humidifier/dehum for controling that. There are some nice small air conditioners that control HVAC and Hum % that you could use.

Above ground concrete vault, with gun safes inside! You're talking about my dream here, on private land of course, with a private range.

I'll probably just build some nice racks inside and count on the vault being enough protection. My place is out in the boondocks on 75 acres of family farm. My Mom's house will be about a hundred yards away, and my aunt and heavily armed uncle are about 400 yards off. We already have a 200 yard range cleared where we shoot. I'm really looking forward to not having to load the truck and drive for 40 minutes to go shoot.

When I get the house finished, I'll probably build a picnic shelter (aka covered shelter for shooting) behind the house, but that may well have to wait for next summer :P

Oh well, one dream at a time I suppose.

KR

Kentucky Rifleman

You might want to check out this site for your long gun storage inside your built-in safe: www.storemoreguns.com . I just saw him and his storage hardware at a gunshow today and it seemed like a pretty ingenious solution to storing a large number of long guns.

I think a concrete vault would be more secure. Of course disguising it is a big advantage to building as mentioned above. Humidity will be a problem at first, as the concrete cures, you may need to either do something special or wait some period of time to allow it to cure.

There are a few profession lock smiths on THR

a1abdj is one who seems to know alot by his post

When I build my house I plan on doing the same thing. But mine is going to be nice, I'll put in a drop ceiling, with lights, HVAC, stud the whole room and rock it, etc.

That's what I'm thinking. Before I was a teacher, I did construction for 12 years, mostly custom cabinets and interior trim. I'll make it nice inside.

I've decided on the poured vault. Several people gave me good suggestions, and I've found several companies that offer excellent vault doors.

I'll wire it for electricity and ventilate it with the house's HVAC system. I'll also plan on a good dehumidifier. I've been looking at moisture-proofing paints, and the best seems to be UGL Drylock. I read about several online and then went over to Lowe's. The paint guy said it was definitely the best for concrete. I'll probably paint the interior, and then use furring strips and Walnut panels to finish it out nicely.

The other thing I've realized is that the vault would allow me to lock up my ammo more securely as well. Considering I keep at least 1000 rounds on hand for every centerfire gun I own, 5000 for each rimfire, and components to load at least as many more, vaulting my ammo supply seems like a good idea from both the preventing burglary angle and the safety in case of fire angle too. (I've told my wife that if the house ever catches fire, just RUN. When the firefighters show up, tell them to steer clear of the back bedroom.

My neighbors would croak if they knew how much ammo, powder, and primers I'm sitting on. That won't be as much an issue on the farm.

KR

Something to consider, why not make it large enough to stay in if a tornado shows up?

Might as well add a few bunks in there too.

-Matt

I have something of this sort in my basement. It's concrete on all 5 sides, ceiling and floor. It gets pretty hot and humid in there so I run an electric dehumidifier and I haven't had any trouble at all with corrosion. I put an electronic deadbolt on the entry door for quick access. I probably need to add a couple more deadbolts I can lock with a key for when I go on vacation or gone for an extended period of time.

Vault every time.

For the price of a real safe suitable for storing guns in you can build a vault with a vault door that will hold ten times what you could put in a safe. You can run electrical to it and light it and run a real dehumidifier. Heck, you can run any utility to it you like and make monitoring it a snap.

You can even dedicate enough space to it to use as a shelter/safe room.

Man I just had a thought of a "man cave". Been some posted on here before too. If you have the funds why not a gun "room" off the back of the garage. Call it a "storm shelter" on the blue prints. A 10x10 room with HVAC, electric, alarm system and nice wood paneling. One side has gun racks, the other, a reloading bench. Only accessible from the garage through a wood door, behind which is your vault door.

Biggest concern would be where you build and what the water tables are in that area. Basements are at the bottom and that's where the water goes. Sewers can back up and water pipes can spring leaks. Even sumps are worthless if the power fails or if you're in a flood plain. It's the same concerns if safes were stored in a basement. Over time concrete foundations can crack and seep moisture. Done right it can be far superior to a safe.

To construct your roof you will need what is called B Deck. When you pour you walls let the rebar stick out a couple of feet. Then the B deck sits on top of the wall and you bend the rebar over that connect them together with additional rebar and weld it all up. You need to support it during the pour, but after that you can park your car on it!

In AZ you shouldn't have a problem with moisture. You can use what is called a mini-split A/C system to cool, heat and control moisture. Just electricity, a 3/8" and 1/2" copper line through the wall to hook it up. ~wingnut13

I live in SE Texas and built a custom home in the early 80's. We took an area in the center of the house and designated it as a vault from the start, had the builder rearrange a few walls to open up the area to the desired size, and worked with him to make what I consider an almost perfect vault.

We bought a Browning Pro Steel vault door, custom made to our specs, with door sides that dropped 12 inches below grade, and poured the slab around the door frame. Then we framed the house around the vault area, lined it with 3/8 inch steel plate, welded it all up with a steel top, put in a light in the ceiling, and now we have a nice walk-in security vault. Well, it's walk-in except you'll trip over the guns. Anyway it has survived two burglaries with no loss. It is not fireproof (note I described it as almost perfect) but it's good enough for me.

We do not have humidity problems in the vault since it's inside the main house which is heated and air conditioned. There's no problem with moisture seeping in from the sides or bottom. It's hidden out in the open: the vault door is hidden by what appears to be a normal wooden door opening into the hallway, where you would expect a closet to be. Surprise-- the closet is a nice sized room and has a vault door on it.

I would recommend spending the money on a nice vault. You only need to do this once and it'll last a lifetime. Our problem now is that we're planning on selling this place and moving to our retirement place which does NOT have a vault and it's already built. I guess I'll have to line up safes somewhere-- a definite step down. Bummer.

Biggest concern would be where you build and what the water tables are in that area.

Most basements in the neighborhood are damp or wet, which is a big part of why I'm building it in the garage.

The house itself is on top of a significant hill, 34 feet above the creek that drains the property. During the worst flooding Kentucky has seen in the hundred years our family has owned the place, the creek came up 7 feet. Add to that the 2 feet above grade I'm pouring the garage floor, and I feel pretty good about not flooding. If My site goes under water then the rest of Mercer County, and two-thirds of the state is under water.

KR

Something to consider, why not make it large enough to stay in if a tornado shows up?

I'm not too familiar with vault doors, can they be secured and opened from the inside? If so, it would be a perfect storm shelter.

I have worked in construction for a while and I have seen some really nice homes with walk in vaults. Some of the cheaper, less noticable ways was one guy had a basement with a gun vault built under his front porch, the concrete floor of the porch was about 12 inches thick with woven rebar and he thought that if the house ever burned the vault would be safer being outside the majority of the house where if it was in the middle of the house and the first floor came down into the basement if would be sourrounded by fire.

Another one had a big room poured into his basement foundation in the corner with a concrete roof and gravity drains around the foundation and in the room.

Both had electrical and both still kept gun safes in there for the higher dollar and prized guns.

I hope to be able to build a house with a vault some day, getting tired of buying gun safes :D

Oh, what the heck.

No half-measures!

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/trivia/Fort_Knox.jpg

You can line the entire vault with 2" foam, glue sealed at every joint to moisture proof it, and then put in a radiant heating floor in it. The floor will be a dry heat source and the room will remain heated so it won't draw any moisture on the colder winter days. A radiant heated floor for a space that small will propbably cost less than a few hundred extra bucks.
Having a built in vault will be a huge resale feature.

If I could do it over again, I'd have put in a vault. Roughly the same price as a couple mid-range safes.

There is a product made by UGL called "DRYLOC" which is a latex based waterproofing paint. It is very heavy bodied, fills in voids extremely well, and is a highly reflective white color. Two coats will go a long way to remedy any water problems. In bank vault construction, an aggregate that is extremely hard (therefore resistant to cutting by carbide bits) can be formulated into the concrete. I'm thinking they use carborundum. Just make sure you have your electrical conduits roughed in before you pour it.

Only thing I can add is, make it big. Bigger than you think you'll ever need, as big as you possibly can. 10x10? Please. I'd want it at least the size of an average 2-car garage. Sure as hell, you'll want to be able to lock up all kinds of things someday.

I have several photos on my website showing vaults, both modular and cast. Each type has its advantages.

A 12" pour (including ceiling) will let you hang a pretty serious door. If going this route, you really should pay a pro to do it. These are not the types of doors that you want to buy off E-bay and install yourself.

Lighter doors can be do it yourself projects if you're careful. 12" of concrete is a bit overkill for most lighter doors. 8" to 10" is more common. The lighter doors are usually set up to open from the inside, whereas bank grade doors are not.

Doors built by gun safe manufacturers are not much more secure than the gun safes that they build. It's not worth putting a tin can on a 12" concrete room.

So far, my record is a 40' x 40' vault inside of a residence.

two thoughts...

One large advantage of building the "room" at the same time you build your house is that it will be easy and cost effective to plan concealment.... I'd suggest hiding the vault door behind a generic looking swing out exterior six panel door with a good lock set on it. This should only add ~$200 in materials and will hide your vault door form curious eyes.

Consider making the room large enough to also function as both a safe room & tornado shelter.

What about humidity? Doesn't new concrete throw off a lot of moisture for several months if not longer?

Consult with some concrete experts. I worked construction many years, and trust me they can make it do just about anything they want. They can make it water proof which keeps water from wicking in which is what cause most moisture problems in basements. They can also cause it to set up underwater, and anything in between. The options are many and varied. Check into it with an expert.

So far, my record is a 40' x 40' vault inside of a residence.

Holy friggin' smokes!! That's larger than the main floor of your average house!!

Quote:
So far, my record is a 40' x 40' vault inside of a residence.

Holy friggin' smokes!! That's larger than the main floor of your average house!!


With 20' ceilings, so I supposed technically they could have added a floor giving them 3,200 square feet of floor space with 10' ceilings. :D

So far, my record is a 40' x 40' vault inside of a residence.

WOW! What size is an average gun vault? What size would you recommend for a gun vault/tornado shelter? I think along with most people here this is a part of my future dream house. Always good to hear from an expert in the field. Thanks.

It will be above ground, poured as part of the garage if I go that way.
Just make sure the vault does not share an outside wall. Don't want anyone to get any ideas about using a vehicle for a smash and grab.

I'd suggest hiding the vault door behind a generic looking swing out exterior six panel door with a good lock set on it.
This is a good idea if the vault is going to be in a fairly visible location of your house or garage. Nothing peaks the interest of a would-be burglar more than the sight of a huge vault door.

Just make sure the vault does not share an outside wall. Don't want anyone to get any ideas about using a vehicle for a smash and grab.


This is a good idea if the vault is going to be in a fairly visible location of your house or garage. Nothing peaks the interest of a would-be burglar more than the sight of a huge vault door.
I'd hate to see the vehicle involved in that smash and grab. I can't imagine there'd be much left of it with 12" concrete walls.

+1 on making it big enough to use as a safe room from home invaders or a tornado room. After all, your family is worth more than your guns.
;)

I would take the opportunity to consult with a professional in these matters and see what your options are, plus the costs. It may be that a hardened basement will work, while still incorporating the ventilation system, pumps and other services.

I'd hate to see the vehicle involved in that smash and grab. I can't imagine there'd be much left of it with 12" concrete walls.
No doubt. But the bad guys probably won't know that they're dealing with 12" (or 8") reinforced concrete, and the attempt will still leave a damaged wall that the OP will not appreciate. It's better to not even give the bad guys the idea.

I'd hate to see the vehicle involved in that smash and grab. I can't imagine there'd be much left of it with 12" concrete walls.

Yeah, me either. Also, it would be a very risky proposition where the property is located.

Basically I just need to ward off smash and grab idiots looking for pill money.

I have 5 family members pretty close, 3 of whom are armed. I'll wire in a silent alarm on the house, and have it buzz through to my Uncle's place.

My wife and I both work day jobs and are home at night, but my Mom, Aunt, and Uncle are all retired, and around a lot during the day. Add to that my cousin who runs a landscaping / nursery business across the road from us, and somebody is near home all day.

My wife's parents are joking about us building out there, calling it the "family compound."

The compound thing suits me just fine :)

The worst two threats about living there will be the meth-heads scrounging for fix money and the rougher illegals - and some of them are pretty rough. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure which group is the bigger threat these days...

KR

Good a cement man can fix you up. Good Luck on your build.

I have a few observations, first off it's important to note that using Concrete Masonry Units (CMU) or "cinder block" is a pretty rapid way to get a wall put up. There's plenty of opportunity to place some rebar inside. Another approach is to cast the walls as a tilt up. By having the wall cast on the floor, you can reduce the amount of formwork necessary. Building a tallish wall to be monolithic cast would require that you have form ties which in turn will require grouting at every tie. Most commercial bank safes are constructed from pre-cast panels with metal embed plates that are welded together. Finally don't forget two things, first, put a smoke detector in the vicinity that's hooked up to a full home system. Anything that cuts generates heat, dust, and smoke which will set the alarm off. Also, remember that gypsum wallboard is a excellent means to achieve a fire rating. As few as two layers of drywall can achieve a 90 minute rating.

In deference to some opinions, CMUs are not the way to go. They are weaker, and you can see how easy they break (watch karate guys, LOL). Tilt wall construction is ok for big stuff, but a real PIA, on the residential level. I have built over 3 dozen concrete homes as a builder, all in the last 10 years. By far the easiest, and strongest are the ICF's. They are basically Styrofoam forms you pour the concrete into. I have had real good luck with the PolySteel brand. We have built whole houses, safe rooms, vaults, etc with these things. They are big boy legos in how they go together.

I would consider first building the entire house (exterior walls) out of these with your vault integrated into the design. As far as comments about putting steel in them. Trust your engineer, they will tell you what size, spacing, etc on that stuff. Building codes will generally apply as far as electrical and HVAC. The holes you make to route the mechanicals inside your vault will not be large enough to compromise the security. Be leery of putting a dehumidifier inside a closed space with guns. Getting the humidity below 50% will cause more damage to your wood, than the benefit from adding protection to your metal. Museum guys have the proper numbers for long term storage of firearms.

A good architect will be worth his fee. Even if you have a design in mind, he will put it in a format that the regulating authority will like, the engineers will like, the contractors will like and it will make your life easier.

Check out the ICFs, Insulated Concrete Forms. Most of these companies will help you with the design at little or no cost, or provide plans. I have personally used the first three companies listed below. Almost used the Owens/Corning product, but lost the bid :(
http://www.polysteel.com/
http://www.eco-block.com/
http://www.rewardwalls.com/
http://www.quadlock.com/
http://www.foldform.com/


This group is here to help you.
http://www.cement.org/homes/

As an added benefit, you can't find a more solid structure with a better energy saving potential. The additional cost is usually made up in a couple of years with energy savings.

Good Luck.

I'd like to add one more thought about vault building, try to limit who knows and how much they know about it, a storm shelter doesn't sound like a nice target for crooks, but a gun vault, will be another story, if roumer builds it up enough somebody will make an attempt.

As to those worried about a smash and grab using a vehicle, maybe a water feature in the right spot in the yard will fix that, nobody needs to know that that fish pond you always gripe about was really your idea. Maybe not a pond but a tall raised flower planter, made of a ton of concrete?

I'd like to add one more thought about vault building, try to limit who knows and how much they know about it
+1
There's a reason kings and despots would kill all the slaves used to build their palaces ;)

+1 for considering using the ICF concept. It's at least worth looking into.

PE

+1 I wouldnt mind buying a house with a pre-built in vault of some sort. That would be cool, less work for me :p

Heck you could hide Xmas gifts in it! :D

Exactly, and a walk-in gun vault can also be described as a storm shelter, walk-in wine cellar or similar........

dupe post

Don't forget. When your finished, POST SOME PICS!

The holes you make to route the mechanicals inside your vault will not be large enough to compromise the security.
I'm not sure what the standard procedure is, but it seems to me that if you have your mechanicals come up through holes in the floor of the vault, it would make it extremely difficult to use those holes to compromise security.

I have vaults for both security and fire resistence in many of the projects my firm designs. There are far too many ineffective vault construction ideas here (and a few that violate building codes). Consult a professional architect or engineer for your vault.

If a guy wanted to build a cinder block room in an average basement, would a standard basement floor slab support the weight?

--Duck911

If a guy wanted to build a cinder block room in an average basement, would a standard basement floor slab support the weight?Short answer is no, at least not without significant reinforcement to the slab. You will need a footer to help bear the additional load...with which comes inflated cost and difficulty. If designed with the house it is a simple addition.

Additionally, your standard CMU (concrete masonry unit) is low grade concrete, which is even weaker than the cinder blocks seen in older construction (which were weak themselves). The inside cavities are often left unfilled (sometimes even when specified), and when they are a relatively weak grout is used. Even with fully filled cavities and plenty of vertical reinforcement (horizontal reinforcement is sparse at best, and often omitted from CMU structure designs) entering the walls of the vault would be elementary task. Using a strong mix of reinforced concrete (5kPSI+) would be advantageous in this case, and of little added cost when the total expenditure is taken into account.

:)

I would re-evaluate the insallation of HVAC duct work in a vault. HVAC duct work is a fire channel and for most of us fire is a least as great a risk as theft.

I haven't read through every post here, so if someone has mentioned it, i risk redundency.

Put the room below ground. If it is above ground, even 8 or 10" concrete is not difficult to get a medium duty truck through (though it'd be real obvious to neighbors). Couple of hits with something like my duece and a half, it'll crumble, then they just have to stick a cable with a hook on the rebar and pull away a chunk to walk in. They could gain access in less than a minute.

Many a store has been broken into by people driving through cinderblock and concrete walls

If it's underground, nothing short of a jackhammer and bucket tractor is gonna get 'er open. And they wouldn't have time for that with an obviously nefarious operation. Or defeating the vault door, but that's why you'd conceal i..

If it is above ground, even 8 or 10" concrete is not difficult to get a medium duty truck through (though it'd be real obvious to neighbors). Couple of hits with something like my duece and a half, it'll crumble, then they just have to stick a cable with a hook on the rebar and pull away a chunk to walk in. They could gain access in less than a minute.


Cinder block perhaps. Properly reinforced concrete is doubtful.

Quote:
If it is above ground, even 8 or 10" concrete is not difficult to get a medium duty truck through (though it'd be real obvious to neighbors). Couple of hits with something like my duece and a half, it'll crumble, then they just have to stick a cable with a hook on the rebar and pull away a chunk to walk in. They could gain access in less than a minute.

Thats why I wrote about adding barriers, if the crooks ramming vehicle is high centered or stuck in a pond they won't reach your vault, good defense has layers because defeating layers takes time. They might even make enough mistakes to get their donkeys caught.

Cinder block perhaps. Properly reinforced concrete is doubtful.Truck could easily defeat Reinforced concrete as well...but, it would have to go pretty fast which naturally leads to (at best) lugging around dozens of firearms by hand. Which is a bit tough and pretty conspicuous (not to mention that you are likely to be seriously injured in the process).

:)

I think that what you are proposing is a good idea, but it will be expensive if you want to provide an atmosphere/environment for your guns that will keep them in excellent condition and not expose them to humidity and/or other moisture concerns. I lived in a home in Michigan years ago that had a similar room; no way would I have stored anything valuable in it, and Michigan has far less humidity than Kentucky, in my experience. To get it into gun-worthy storage condition would have been an expensive proposition then; I'm guessing that it would be even moreso today.

Truck could easily defeat Reinforced concrete as well...but, it would have to go pretty fast

Perhaps in your average 5,000-8,000 pound LD pick-up with chincy sheetmetal and crumple zones. I mentioned my duece before, and I'll use it again. That's a 14,000 pound truck with 1/4" thick steel bumpers bolted directly to (guestimating, not near the vehicle) 3"x8"x5/16" c-channel frame rails. I submit that a good "bump" or two from 10mph or so would destroy the integrity of an 8" thick concrete wall. I'm not about to test this theory with my own vehicle, as damage certainly could result. But I don't believe I'm too far off base. That kind of rigid mass doesn't need much velocity to defeat a relatively brittle barrier.

It also wouldn't take much engineering to do something like weld a piece of pointed I-beam to the bumper with two "barbs" that would spring out and act like a harpoon. It would pierce the wall easily, and then just back up to remove a sizeable chunk of wall.

Granted, this would be above and beyond the capabilities and resources of the average burglar, but that doesn't make it any less feasible, especially if the perceived return of the stolen items is high enough.

This has to be the claustrophobia speaking, but I'd want any safe big enough to walk into to have a means of being unlocked from the inside. I know . . . I'm mentally ill . . . but the thing that runs through my mind is being locked inside, either inadvertantly or by some doofus.

One of my brothers-in-law just built a new house with an oversized garage. The garage floor is constructed of precast concrete sections that interlock. The result was a huge basement room that could be secured by a heavy duty steel door. He keeps his tools, gun safe, etc. down there. Pretty cool.

As others have said, I don't think you can count on any sort of sealant/paint keeping moisture out. You'll need a mechanical means of introducing dried air and venting this vault.

Thousands of banks nationwide have concrete vaults where moisture is not a concern. There are simple ways of dealing with this.

I do find it amusing that we are discussing crashing through vaults in this thread. Most of the post concerning gun safes on this forum revolve around a 1/10" steel wall being sufficient to keep out your average burglar, yet in this post, 8" of reinforced concrete is not enough.

I do find it amusing that we are discussing crashing through vaults in this thread. Most of the post concerning gun safes on this forum revolve around a 1/10" steel wall being sufficient to keep out your average burglar, yet in this post, 8" of reinforced concrete is not enough.

I am with you on this a1abdj, it seems like this thread has gone from the reasonable to the absurd pretty quickly.

Use an engineer and a good architect and you will have a chance to have a safer storage place better than 95% of the people on this board, for a very nominal cost.





I guess someone could start a fantasy thread about "If I build this, how would you break into it with unlimited resources and time?"

That kind of rigid mass doesn't need much velocity to defeat a relatively brittle barrier.Properly constructed reinforced concrete is not all that brittle, it can be extremely resilient...even with a 0.25in. bumper...or a 0.50in. bumper. Concrete also has the ability to flex enough to limit damage, particularly with the addition of steel reinforcement. Were this not the case you concrete would be unsuitable for use in beams and girders, which is commonly used for parking decks, bridge decks, as well as industrial/commercial structures. Modern blends of concrete can exceed half the strength of steel, and the state-of-the-art mortars and cements can be stronger than the aggregate used within. The concrete mix used for small structural components (smaller than typically designed for architectural or mechanical reasons) or that used in nuclear power plant containment structures is particularly strong (but generally heavier than typical mixes).

:)

I do find it amusing that we are discussing crashing through vaults in this thread. Most of the post concerning gun safes on this forum revolve around a 1/10" steel wall being sufficient to keep out your average burglar, yet in this post, 8" of reinforced concrete is not enough.

I am with you on this a1abdj, it seems like this thread has gone from the reasonable to the absurd pretty quickly.

Why is that so absurd? If one thinks about it, a vault that is as the OP mentioned (built on the exterior of the house by the garage) actually easier to gain access to through the means I've hypothesized (or something similar) than a 700 pound safe in the basement, bolted to the floor would be.

If one is serious enough about protecting their assets to actually build a vault, I would think that person would go the distance to simply put it in a location that makes it that much more impervious to break in. As I said, put that same 8" thick concrete vault below ground level, and it's gonna take specialized equipment and a greatly increased amount of time to get it open. And even with the motivation and a plan that could reduce the time, the equipment necessary is not easily procured or moved on site, and next to impossible without leaving a trail of evidence.

Just thinking about it from all angles, guys. That's all.

If one is serious enough about protecting their assets to actually build a vault, I would think that person would go the distance to simply put it in a location that makes it that much more impervious to break in.

Well... I honestly hadn't thought that much about it. Frankly I'm planning on using the safe to keep out the riff-raff and give me some fire protection. The reason I chose the garage (which requires extra pouring as opposed to a corner of the basement) is that I'm much more concerned about the practical problems of limiting humidity as the unlikely eventuality of someone being determined enough to put in the work required to breach the vault.

Anyone with enough planning and executing capabilities to breach a concrete vault would be far likelier to knock over a bank for cash than my vault for my measly gun collection.

I talked to an architect for over an hour today. He has experience with this type of thing, and it's going to be a fairly simple procedure to add the vault. He echoed another poster's recommendation about using sheetrock for fire retarding over moisture-proofing paint (he recommended UGL Drylock by name).

He figured the amount of ducting needed for the space I'm using (6'4" x 8'2") and we'll ventilate it off the garage's HVAC unit. We're going to duct through the ceiling to lessen the chances of the ductwork becoming a fire conduit.

Based on his estimates, the vault including footer and slab ceiling, but not including door will set me back about 2500.00

That's pretty good for what I'm getting out of it, and significantly cheaper than anything similar in steel.

KR

Based on his estimates, the vault including footer and slab ceiling, but not including door will set me back about 2500.00


Just don't freak out when you find that you'll spend more than that for any decent door. :D