M1 Garand .308 or 30.06???


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skipbo32
April 19, 2010, 11:42 PM
im a M1 garand newbie and was looking at a m1 chambered in .308. any thoughts on what is better... .308 vs. 30.06? is the .308 easier to find or cheaper? ive heard that one should put military grade ammo in a 30.06 m1, but i dont know how easy it is to find. i have also heard that 150 grain military 30.06 has virtually the same ballistics as the 7.62 x 51. any help would be great.

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10X
April 20, 2010, 10:45 AM
The 30-06 is the original and proper caliber for an M1. The 30-06 150 grain round will go 3,000 fps. The 308 will go 2,800. To me that is a big difference. The 308 round is a bit more accurate than a 30-06, but that is rifle dependent.
You must use ammo, whether 30-06 or 308, in a given powder burning rate to prevent damaging the operating rod and to allow the rifle to function properly. Manufacturers (web pages) can tell what will and will not work.
I don't find 30-06 any more or less difficult to find than 308.

SlamFire1
April 20, 2010, 10:57 AM
I have shot and owned a number of Match Grade Garands.

I have one in 308 Winchester with a 1:10 Douglas Barnett barrel. It is an exceptionally accurate rifle. I don't know why, whether it is the barrel, cartridge, or the luck of the draw.

In my 308, cartridges get ejected all over the place, many directly into my forehead. If I don't have my hat brim touching the rear sight hood, cases will hit my unprotected forehead. I have come back from matches with circular and half moon cuts on my forehead.

After I installed a 308 block insert, I had less brass shavings in the action. I guess the insert improves feeding.

There is virtually no difference in the performance of the cartridges when loaded for the gas system of the Garand.

It is my considered opinion that you will have an easier time reselling the rifle if it is in 30-06.

mm1ut1
April 20, 2010, 12:35 PM
If you want to shoot in Garand matches go with the 30-06. Keep it stock for it's collector value. If you want to mess around with glass bedding, et cet for ultimate accuracey go with the 308. Also, this being America, you can have both ! If you buy smart you won't lose money on them.

wombat13
April 20, 2010, 12:55 PM
You may use any ammo you want in a Garand, as long as you replace the stock gas plug with an adjustable gas plug. I have this one:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=777146

It simply screws in and uses an allen wrench to adjust. You can return your rifle to stock in a matter of seconds with a screwdriver.

benzy2
April 20, 2010, 09:10 PM
I like the .30-06, but can understand one chambered in .308. I have an adjustable gas plug, bought a bit of the Greek CMP ammo, and reload so my issues finding usable loads for .30-06 is minimal. It uses a little more powder than a .308 but it feels right. Also, being able to handload and adjust the gas plug allows for a little hotter .30-06 load if needed, though honestly, I hunt paper and broken electronics with the M1 so I don't load hot. I do think the conversion scares a lot of people from a resale point of view. I wouldn't buy one I couldn't test first in .308. That's not to say it won't be just as reliable but I want to have it proven before I would spend the money. As for accuracy, honestly, I don't think there is much difference that can be blamed from one chambering to the other. There have been plenty of accurate .30-06 rifles out there and plenty of accurate .308 rifles. With all thats going on in the cycling of the M1, given equal quality parts used for both rifles, I have troubles seeing one be more accurate in general than another. Again I'm sure there are examples of very accurate rifles in both rounds.

If you don't reload I would look at which you have better access and price to the ammo you want to use. Surplus, while often not near as accurate, is about as cheap as it gets. If you have a way to get surplus of one in better quantity and for a better price than the other, that would be a big consideration. Reloading all but evens things out.

So really, just get what you like better and enjoy it. There isn't really a wrong answer here. For some the answer is different than others so get what you like.

tkendrick
April 20, 2010, 09:36 PM
Keep the M1 in '06 and buy an M1A for .308. That way you have two rifles and both in the correct calibers.

Just thinking out loud.

leadcounsel
April 20, 2010, 10:06 PM
.3006 will offer more and cheaper parts, en bloc clips, and it's the original caliber. I'd stick with the original (and I am otherwise a big fan of the .308)

skipbo32
April 21, 2010, 10:59 AM
so where is the best place to get military 30.06 ammo? and am i not supposed to go over 2750 FPS? i saw some 150 grain bullets that are just over 2800 FPS...is that too much.

Jeremy2171
April 21, 2010, 11:20 AM
Slamfire..
Pull the ejector and cut 2 coils or so off the spring. The problem is the 7.62 case weighs less than the .30cal and the 7.62 brass is thrown harder/faster and the oprod hump never has a chance to "bump" the brass forward like in a .30cal rifle.

Here are two of my favorite Garands...

Top is an HRA and the other is a 2.1 mil SA.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff36/jeremy2171/Garand/guns006.jpg

skipbo32
April 21, 2010, 11:26 AM
so those of you who are shooting .308 in your garand....what FPS is you ammo? if you can shoot .308 that is 2800 FPS would it be ok to shoot 30.06 that is 2800 FPS?

skipbo32
April 21, 2010, 11:27 AM
jeremy,
nice mod job on your garand. i like the m14 barrel. was there a reason you did that?

artee
April 21, 2010, 12:32 PM
308 Garand: My benifactor (State Guard Team member at time) loaned me his 308 M1 and M118 Special Ball for a 1000 yd match weekend. He gave me the rifle and ammo several weeks early, and wanted me to practice and chrono the ammo. It did 2720 fps from the M1. He had Champions (TN) put one of their Douglas 308 barrels on it, then did a 'match prep' himself on the rifle. That consisted of placing NM rear sight and NM thin front blade, ejector spring "trim" for 1:00 ejection, and glass bed. He had done this several years before I shot the rifle. Shot well, was in the 190s that weekend. It did as well as the M14s/M1As on the line.

NOTE: That barrel was CHAMBERED in 308 (or maybe 7.62), it WASN'T an "insert" barrel. And, it had the correct gas port for "308" (it's larger than for '06).

A 308 M1 is kinda rare. It's NOT easier to find or cheaper. I've seen to few examples used to say it has an advantage over an '06. In theory, it should have, but....

It uses the SAME clips as used in '06. The ammo fits a bit snugger due to less case taper in 308. For a one rifle sample, the same 2 and 5 round and SLEDs that worked in the '06 M1s worked in that one 308 M1.

Be VERY careful on Garand ammo. Most commercial .30-06 is NOT Op Rod/Garand safe. Ammo heavier than 180 grain batters the bedding and loosens it. I've seen 190s wreck a stock for accuracy over one 88 round match. The recoil of the reciever increases and an M1 has very little actual bedding area. The wood gets crushed. Glass loosens.
There is lots of Garand safe '06 data and 'philosophy' for reloading. For 308, guys assume if it's ok for an M1A/M14, it'll be OK for my 308 Garand. You can call Remington and ask if a 30-06 150 gn Corelock XYZ load is OK for an M1. You can call Remington and ask if a 165gn abc is OK in a Springfield Armory M1A. You ask them if that 308 165gn abc is OK in a 308 M1, and they'll tell you (Navy not withstanding) that they view that 308 M1 as custum/experimental and not recommend their ammo for it.

Uncle Mike
April 21, 2010, 04:12 PM
and they'll tell you (Navy not withstanding) that they view that 308 M1 as custum/experimental and not recommend their ammo for it.

Just a CYA type statement!

I have a Springfield Armory Garand in 308, got it back when SA was doing a run of the Garands in this caliber....that thing lives on a steady diet of Cavim, S.African and Radway, the op rod is fine, and she is perking along just fine, accuracy is turdish with the S African and Radway, the Cavim fairs better but the reloads makes her shine, 1.5"@100y if all the planets align.

I guess the point is, after years of eating ammo that is NOT supposed to be fed to a Garand, it is fine and dandy. Now, I would not do that to any of the match shooters I have, no sir, not the 30-06's or the 308 Match Garands, but this one particular Garand has the duty of eating trash ammo...and well, it does it!

Jeremy2171
April 21, 2010, 04:59 PM
jeremy,
nice mod job on your garand. i like the m14 barrel. was there a reason you did that?
Had the parts, 7.62 was cheap and didn't have anything better to do at the time!

I get some pretty funny looks at the range when people see me sling up with an M1A and then start shoving a garand clip down into it! :D

Uncle Mike
April 21, 2010, 05:05 PM
I get some pretty funny looks at the range when people see me sling up with an M1A and then start shoving a garand clip down into it!

Hehehehe, I bet you do....that is a sweet rifle you put together.

XxWINxX94
April 21, 2010, 05:15 PM
I regret getting a 30-06 because the ammo prices are crazy!!!

USSR
April 21, 2010, 06:03 PM
For 308, guys assume if it's ok for an M1A/M14, it'll be OK for my 308 Garand.

Nope! The M1 Garand whether it is chambered in .30-06 or .308, uses the same gas system and op rod, and so, has the same port pressure constraint. The M14/M1A uses a different gas system which is much more forgiving.

Don

sonier
April 21, 2010, 06:42 PM
if you want the original rifle its chambered for 30/06, if you are recoil sensitive like many and dont care about it being original grab a .308. theres a lot of hype about .308 being more accurate than 30/06 i say bull i just shot a 5 shot grouping in one solid hole that measured right at 1/2 inch at 100 yards, the rifle is a stock savage model 111 without there new bedding. point is most people find the .308 more accurate cause the 30/06 makes them flinch more, both cartridges i believe have the same accuracy potential.
far as velocity in different cartridges long as you dont exceed maxium pressure you can drive any of those cartridges pretty fast. If you worried start with low pressure loadings and work your way up too some faster stuff good luck :)

skipbo32
April 21, 2010, 07:19 PM
Jeremy.....you know, you can get a 5 rd mag for an M1A and feed it w/ stripper clips and get the same effect.

Jeremy2171
April 21, 2010, 07:43 PM
Jeremy.....you know, you can get a 5 rd mag for an M1A and feed it w/ stripper clips and get the same effect.
How so? At what point does the empty en-bloc clip popup out of the M1A?

Besides mine is not an "assault" rifle..it has no detachable magazine... SAFE for every state! :D

skipbo32
April 21, 2010, 08:15 PM
so is your gun operated by a piston? if so how did you modify the op rod?

Pony Express
April 21, 2010, 08:22 PM
Keep the M1 in '06 and buy an M1A for .308. That way you have two rifles and both in the correct calibers.


Bingo. If you're worried about cost and can only buy one to begin, I would start with the m1a. Although its much more expensive to start (almost 2x according to gunbroker) the .308 ammo will be m uch cheaper to buy/shoot. From there you can figure out if thats right for you. If not, sell it and buy a garand. Or if so, buy a garand and keep the both of them!

Jeremy2171
April 22, 2010, 11:38 AM
so is your gun operated by a piston? if so how did you modify the op rod?
Shortened the op rod and sleeved the M14 op rod guide to fit the M1 oprod, then tweaked the follower rod and used a spring from a Tanker Garand and that was about it. This way the M1 op rod was compatible with the M14 gas system.

Not that hard really..once you started doing it...

skipbo32
April 22, 2010, 04:49 PM
jeremy...it's a cool gun no doubt. but just don't believe that it is "SAFE in every state" like you said. that flash suppressor will land you in trouble if you cross the wrong state line. thanks for sharing.

SlamFire1
April 22, 2010, 06:43 PM
A 308 M1 is kinda rare. It's NOT easier to find or cheaper. I've seen to few examples used to say it has an advantage over an '06. In theory, it should have, but

An original is extremely rare. My State Association had three unaltered Air Force National Match M1's in 308. These were sent to Scott Duffy for sale on his auction sight. One was in exceptional condition with a 6 million receiver. None of the rifles ever made to to the auction page. Duffy had buds who wanted these so bad, that he was able to sell them them without listing them. The average sale price for the three was $3,000 each.

The State Association was able to sell two of the rebarreled Air Force NM M1's to Association members for about half of the Duffy price. These were rebarreled with Douglas barrels once the original GI barrel was shot out. Back then, no one knew about these things. They were just rifles to shoot, and keep shooting, for State Association members.

GRIZ22
April 22, 2010, 07:37 PM
You may use any ammo you want in a Garand, as long as you replace the stock gas plug with an adjustable gas plug.

True. But you can also modify (enlarge I believe) the gas port for a 308 Garand to function with NATO spec ammo.

so those of you who are shooting .308 in your garand....what FPS is you ammo? if you can shoot .308 that is 2800 FPS would it be ok to shoot 30.06 that is 2800 FPS?

I have a commercial conversion, a 308 Tanker with a 18" barrel that runs fine on NATO spec ammo which is listed at 2750 fps. This ammo chronos at 2550-2600 fps from the 18" barrel (and gives a significant muzzle blast).

I have chronoed M2 ball from various sources (US, Greek,Danish, etc) and found it to be 2650-2900 fps. It's not about velocity its about pressure. All the different ammo is loaded for the pressure curve the M1 needs.

Jeremy2171
April 22, 2010, 07:57 PM
jeremy...it's a cool gun no doubt. but just don't believe that it is "SAFE in every state" like you said. that flash suppressor will land you in trouble if you cross the wrong state line. thanks for sharing.
Which state line would that be?

artee
April 25, 2010, 01:40 PM
USSR/Don
For 308, guys assume if it's ok for an M1A/M14, it'll be OK for my 308 Garand.

Nope! The M1 Garand whether it is chambered in .30-06 or .308, uses the same gas system and op rod, and so, has the same port pressure constraint. The M14/M1A uses a different gas system which is much more forgiving.

Don
Don that's true. Kinda. While the "parts" are the same, the spec for the gas port in the barrel of a "308" or 7.62x51 Garand is different than for an '06 model
see: "The M1 Garand-M14 Shop Manual" by Jerry Kuhnhausen
that's done as the pressure delivered at the port by the "308" ISN"T the same as '06.

skipbo32
April 25, 2010, 01:54 PM
Jeremy....the state line of California. but my guess is, a fine innovative gun toter like your self is far from such a gun-hating state. all the M1As sent to CA have the muzzle break (instead of the flash hider) fitted to them. but it's just a heads up for ya, incase you are traveling through there.

it's a sweet gun you got there. it's basically a lighter weight M1. i like it!

Jeremy2171
April 25, 2010, 03:36 PM
That law doesn't apply to my rifle.....it does NOT have a detachable magazine. Therefore the hider is legal.

Glad you like it!

rscalzo
April 25, 2010, 03:49 PM
Had the parts, 7.62 was cheap and didn't have anything better to do at the time!

I had to re-barrel it so I had it done in 308. I have several other 30-06 Garands so I thought what the hell. If I had only one, it would be in the original caliber.

jpwilly
April 25, 2010, 05:05 PM
Get whatever caliber you prefer. My only M1 Garand was rebarreled to .308 Win with a match bbl and it's a super sweet shooter. I love it! Should I ever get an M1A they can eat from the same ammo can!

USSR
April 25, 2010, 07:10 PM
USSR/Don
For 308, guys assume if it's ok for an M1A/M14, it'll be OK for my 308 Garand.

Nope! The M1 Garand whether it is chambered in .30-06 or .308, uses the same gas system and op rod, and so, has the same port pressure constraint. The M14/M1A uses a different gas system which is much more forgiving.

Don

Don that's true. Kinda. While the "parts" are the same, the spec for the gas port in the barrel of a "308" or 7.62x51 Garand is different than for an '06 model see: "The M1 Garand-M14 Shop Manual" by Jerry Kuhnhausen
that's done as the pressure delivered at the port by the "308" ISN"T the same as '06.

artee,

The only spec for the gas port in the Garand (which is nothing more than a hole in the bottom of the barrel) is it's size and location. Both a .30-06 and .308 chambered Garand use the same gas cylinder and op rod (assuming a full size .308 barrel). The Garand's gas cylinder and op rod are designed to work at 8,000psi +/- 2,000psi. So, using .308 ammo that exceeds the design spec's of the rifle, you risk damage to the rifle, just the same as if you exceed the design spec's with .30-06 ammo.

Don

artee
April 26, 2010, 06:58 PM
Don, what part of "same parts" doesn't agree with what you said originally or in expanded form? But, you continue to miss the point. The "308" or 7.62 Garand uses the same parts, but the speced port size (yeah, it's "just a hole") is DIFFERENT. If you use the same size as on an '06, you will not have a reliable Garand. Springfield Armory, Fulton Armory, Clint Fowler all put a different size "hole" in for the port. And, the Navy, once they got away from trying the chamber inserts, also used a different size port.

USSR
April 27, 2010, 01:50 PM
artee,

I KNOW that .308 conversions of Garands use a different size hole, not arguing that at all. What I am saying is that, just like the hole size used in a .30-06 Garand is set up to function the gas system at a specific port pressure level, the .308 hole size is also set to function the gas system at the very same level (8,000psi +/-2,000psi). Pressure is pressure. Exceed that port pressure level and it don't matter what the cartridge headstamp says.

Don

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