Why is a break down gun not an NFA gun?


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bushmaster1313
April 22, 2010, 10:15 PM
Can anyone explain why a breakdown shotgun, where the overall length is more than 26 inches and the barrel is more than 18 inches, is not an NFA gun when each half is less than 26 inches?

In other words, if each half of a breakdown shotgun is between 18 and 26 inches, why is the broken down gun not an NFA gun?

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TexasRifleman
April 22, 2010, 10:17 PM
Can anyone explain why a breakdown shotgun, where the overall length is more than 26 inches and the barrel is more than 18 inches, is not an NFA gun when each half is less than 26 inches?

From NFA:

The overall length of a firearm is the distance between the muzzle of the barrel and the rearmost portion of the weapon measured on a line parallel to the axis of the bore.

The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and measured.

Those would appear to me to require the firearm to be assembled and in "operable" condition when measured.

zoom6zoom
April 22, 2010, 10:19 PM
probably because it's not operable when in that condition.

nalioth
April 22, 2010, 10:21 PM
Quite so.

When it's broken down, it's technically not a gun (if I'm thinking of the correct "breakdown gun")

bushmaster1313
April 22, 2010, 11:17 PM
If the broken down gun (a Model 12 or a stevens 520) is not a gun, are you illegally making a gun when you put your own gun that you took apart back together?

TexasRifleman
April 22, 2010, 11:20 PM
If the broken down gun (a Model 12 or a stevens 520) is not a gun, are you illegally making a gun when you put your own gun that you took apart back together?


It is still a gun when taken apart, it's just not measured for overall length that way.

It's not illegal to make a gun anyway. Keep trolling this, you will come up with a good one eventually :) It's kinda fun :)

gunsandreligion
April 23, 2010, 12:08 AM
In other words, if each half of a breakdown shotgun is between 18 and 26 inches, why is the broken down gun not an NFA gun? probably becouse it takes time to assemble, all I can say is that I'm thankfull that I can have one. Btw, why is a gun shorter than 26" or barrel shorter than 18/16 nfa? we have at least 1 crime a week commited around here with a hacksawed job. laws just stop law abideing citizens otherwise their not law abideing. just be thankfull its not nfa.

nalioth
April 23, 2010, 01:37 AM
The OP and some others here are missing the simple answer.

When your "breakdown gun" is in it's broken down state (i.e. two separate pieces), can you pull the trigger on it and fire it?

If not, it doesn't meet the legal definition of "gun" (at least in Texas).
Until each part is connected to the other, and it is able to fire a cartridge, it's just two pieces of wood and metal, for all the law is concerned.

bushmaster1313
April 23, 2010, 06:34 AM
But you cannot selll a serial numbered receiver.

There must be somethng in the NFA statute that makes the 26 inch rule not apply if the gun will not work

TexasRifleman
April 23, 2010, 07:13 AM
But you cannot selll a serial numbered receiver.

Sure you can. Why can't you? Private firearm sales are done all the time. AR lowers are sold by the thousands, and that is a serial numbered receiver.

Until each part is connected to the other, and it is able to fire a cartridge, it's just two pieces of wood and metal, for all the law is concerned.

No, the serial numbered part is a receiver always. Think of an AR lower again. Even with no parts kit installed that is a Title 1 firearm and subject to all the laws regarding firearms. Doesn't matter if it's functioning or not.

But, since it's unassembled, an AR15 lower is not considered an SBR even though it's less than 26 inches overall because it's not assembled and the law regarding measurements requires assembly as shown above. Now, if I apply for a tax stamp and make my AR15 receiver an SBR, it's an SBR even when not assembled, for the same reason. It's still a firearm, just one whose serial number is in the NFA registry.

There is nothing here that's confusing or in conflict with the law.

Sam1911
April 23, 2010, 07:26 AM
But you cannot selll a serial numbered receiver.
Obviously, you certainly can. I've purchased several.

There must be somethng in the NFA statute that makes the 26 inch rule not apply if the gun will not work

You really need to take a step back and think about this more clearly. If what you're saying were true, any time you disassembled a gun to clean it you'd be making a SBR or SBS.

bushmaster1313
April 23, 2010, 08:25 AM
Quote:
But you cannot selll a serial numbered receiver.

Obviously, you certainly can. I've purchased several.


I meant you cannot not ship it across state lines to sell except to an FFL.

merlinfire
April 23, 2010, 08:28 AM
Quote:
If the broken down gun (a Model 12 or a stevens 520) is not a gun, are you illegally making a gun when you put your own gun that you took apart back together?

It is still a gun when taken apart, it's just not measured for overall length that way.

It's not illegal to make a gun anyway. Keep trolling this, you will come up with a good one eventually It's kinda fun

Exactly. I like takedown models, like the portability. Been thinking about getting a papoose or possibly an ar-7 sometime soon.

As for making guns, that's going to be my newest hobby just as soon as I can afford my lathe!

TexasRifleman
April 23, 2010, 08:43 AM
I meant you cannot not ship it across state lines to sell except to an FFL.

What does that have to do with whether or not a disassembled firearm is an SBR?

The important point is that whether a gun is functional or not has nothing to do with whether it's legally still a gun or not.

If I take an AR and remove the firing pin it's not functional but if I put a 10 inch barrel on it and carry it around in the car without a tax stamp there's a pretty good chance I'm going to prison, even though it won't fire. It's still a firearm.

And yes, disassembled firearms are still considered firearms in Texas. Not sure why they wouldn't be.

"Firearm" means any device designed, made, or adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance or any device readily convertible to that use.

nalioth
April 23, 2010, 04:17 PM
Until each part is connected to the other, and it is able to fire a cartridge, it's just two pieces of wood and metal, for all the law is concerned.
No, the serial numbered part is a receiver always. Think of an AR lower again. Even with no parts kit installed that is a Title 1 firearm and subject to all the laws regarding firearms. Doesn't matter if it's functioning or not.

But, since it's unassembled, an AR15 lower is not considered an SBR even though it's less than 26 inches overall because it's not assembled and the law regarding measurements requires assembly as shown above. Now, if I apply for a tax stamp and make my AR15 receiver an SBR, it's an SBR even when not assembled, for the same reason. It's still a firearm, just one whose serial number is in the NFA registry.

There is nothing here that's confusing or in conflict with the law.Aren't we saying the same thing?
And yes, disassembled firearms are still considered firearms in Texas. Not sure why they wouldn't be.


"Firearm" means any device designed, made, or adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance or any device readily convertible to that use.Exactly.

Go buy yourself a stripped receiver (legally a firearm under federal law, but not legally a firearm under state law) and load it up and "expel a projectile through a barrel".

waterhouse
April 23, 2010, 04:32 PM
There must be somethng in the NFA statute that makes the 26 inch rule not apply if the gun will not work

Well, there is something about how to measure the overall length, but it doesn't have to do with the gun not working. TexasRifleman posted the sentence in post 2:

The overall length of a firearm is the distance between the muzzle of the barrel and the rearmost portion of the weapon measured on a line parallel to the axis of the bore.

To better answer your question, which part of that is confusing? Even if the pieces are separate, the overall length requires that the barrel be in line with the bore axis for measurement.

ETA:

perhaps a picture will help. Based on the description of overall length posted above, what is the overall length of:

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/attachments/f68/117553d1239828303-fs-new-complete-ar15-m4-lower-receiver-aero-precision-2.jpg
?

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