Pocket Revolver Smaller Than J-Frame?


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Low Budget Shooter
April 23, 2010, 01:24 PM
Dear THR Revolver Guys,

I know the 642 or similar is the model most often recommended for pocket carry. The NAA mini revolver is genius, but of course its greatest strength, the tiny size, is its greatest weakness, as it is difficult to shoot quickly and well, and fires a .22 round.

Is there anything that lands between these? I pretty much know what's available new, but what about the old stuff?

Have you handled an old Colt Pocket Positive? How much smaller are they than a j-frame?

Is an original S&W 30 any smaller?

What's out there?

Thanks!

LBS

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MCgunner
April 23, 2010, 01:45 PM
NAA might have answered this question with a top break .32, but the project was scrapped. Now, they've scaled it to a .22 mag top break, it seems, rumors coming out of NAA at various industry shows. It is not yet on the market, of course. I've seen a picture claimed to be it.

heyjoe
April 23, 2010, 02:04 PM
an i frame pre model 30 is smaller than a j frame. i have one. it weighs around 18 ounces. it is not significantly smaller than a j frame though. about a half inch in height and length.

MachIVshooter
April 23, 2010, 02:14 PM
Little 5-shot .32 S&W or .32 S&W long top breaks, like my Iver-Johnson safety automatic:

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n117/Hunter2506/100_0989.jpg

But those cartridges are even less powerful than the .32 ACP.

As MCgunner mentioned, Sandy Chisholm scrapped the NAA .32 H&R mini revolver project that might have been the answer you're looking for (it was kinda ugly).

At this time, anything in the more respectable .32 H&R or fire-breathing .327 Federal is gonna be a J-frame/SP-101 sized gun or larger, holding 6 or more shots.

Honestly, if you find a J-frame too big, you probably need to start looking at automatics like the P3AT/LCP/TCP/P380.

Clifford
April 23, 2010, 03:15 PM
Try the NAA with holster grip on it. Makes the gun much easier to shoot and it's still 1/2 the size of a j frame.

snooperman
April 23, 2010, 03:28 PM
you would have to cut the barrel shorter and it is an anemic caliber. With all the new materials such as scandium and titanium metals one would think they would come up with a new smaller frame than the I or J frame guns in a 32 H&R magnum in a 10 ounce gun. Just a thought.

MCgunner
April 23, 2010, 06:05 PM
I found a pic I saved of that new NAA they're developing. :D

http://i43.tinypic.com/wiwwus.jpg


I found my answer in a NAA super companion with folding holster grip, personally. I like it better than the .22 mag, load with 2.0 grains Bullseye volume measured and use NAA's 30 grain bullet. It pushes around 1250 fps from the 1 5/8" barrel. I've got a spare magazine for a reload. I don't often need to carry it, but I have it if I need it. A J frame normally will fit in MY pockets, but there are times I want ultimate concealment.

MCgunner
April 23, 2010, 06:07 PM
BTW, if they bring it out, I'll add that top brake to my small NAA collection. :D

RevolvingGarbage
April 23, 2010, 06:49 PM
It just does not seem like there is enough steel below that cylinder. I know its a .22mag and when fired there's plenty of strength provided by the latch and all, but when its open I'm betting it wouldn't take a grand amount of force to bend that frame or break it outright.

It does look cool as hell though. I do hope I'm wrong about the frame as I would love to pick one up when they come out!

MCgunner
April 23, 2010, 06:53 PM
I guess if you ran over it with the lawn mower, maybe, but that is stout steel on the ordinary NAAs. I figure the folding grip will protect it from bangs, too. Does on mine.

The Lone Haranguer
April 23, 2010, 06:53 PM
The NAA Black Widow is a .22 Mag. slightly larger than the mini-revolvers. I've been eyeing one of these for a backup myself. But it still only a .22 and is not a double action.

MCgunner
April 23, 2010, 08:03 PM
I'd as soon have a .22 mag as a .32 Long or ACP. About the same pop, even from short barrels. Single action doesn't bother me, either. Anything more than .32 long, I'm afraid, is going to take a J frame's strength. I think NAA must have figured out that even the .32 long was a little much for a top break mini revolver. That's just a guess, not real sure why the scrapped the project.

Clifford
April 23, 2010, 08:04 PM
Mcgunner, one of my recent blue press magazines had the pic's of that NAA revo. I've been lusting after one the moment I saw it. No info of NAA's site about it thou I'm wondering when it will be released.

mec
April 23, 2010, 09:27 PM
I saw that blue press picture too and e-mailed the president. he told me that the project is in early stages and, if it pans out, it will almost certainly be after the end of this year.

i've been chronographing loads through a 1 5/8" bbl 22m. Several loads are from a project I did in 2003 and I bought some "fresh" ammo for comparison. The velocities are higher than those published on the Naa site (as were some long rifle rounds i clocked through one of those Naa revolvers a while back)
Winchester Wester 40 grain JHP- Original load
Velocity 1027 fps Energy 94 ft lbs (10) H: 1044 L: 972

CCI Maxi Mag TNT 30 grain jhp
From 2003 Velocity: 1117 Energy 83 ft l bs (10) H: 1126/ L: 1098

From 2010 Velocity: 1155 Energy 89 ft/lbs (5) HL 1214/L: 1101

CCI Maxi Mag FMJ 40 grain
From 2003 Velocity: 1038 Energy 96 ft/lbs (5) H: 1071 L: 976
From 2010 Velocity: 1017 Energy 92 ft/lbs (5) H: 1049 L: 990

Remington 40 grain JHP
Velocity 995 Energy 88 ft/lbs (10) H: 1029 L: 967

Two rounds of WW supreme 34 grain jhp
1050 and 1421=case head separated and cylinder locked up- discontinued
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=120077&stc=1&d=1272071764
The TNT shot into gallon water jugs.


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=120078&stc=1&d=1272071883
five shots two handed from nine feet/ five shots one handed from 15 feet. The gun brough up and fired as soon as the front sight covered the desired point of impact.

The velocities of these loads is in the range of performance of 6 inch and Ruger Security Sixes and K22s with 36 grain long rifle hollow points and the bullet expansion of the TNT is profound enough to indicate that it should show expansion in tissue. The loads that clock in the 1000_+ fps range with 40 grain bullets should penetrate better and might be a sensible choice for those who don't trust a 30 grain bullet at trans sonic velocities to penetrated deep enough. The traditional ww jhp or the jhps from CCI will not expand in any media until the velocity is a few hundred feet per second faster than available from the NAA.

MachIVshooter
April 23, 2010, 10:53 PM
I guess if you ran over it with the lawn mower, maybe, but that is stout steel on the ordinary NAAs.

Agreed. Damaging that frame would definitely have to be intentional, not from normal use and carry.

I'd as soon have a .22 mag as a .32 Long or ACP. About the same pop, even from short barrels.

My chrono results with my 1-5/8" mini folder .22 Mag. mirror mec's, running 80-95 ft/lbs. At 130 ft/lbs, the .32 long/new police and .32 ACP have a good bit more energy. 40 ft/lbs isn't much when comparing larger cartridges, but in these little guys that are scraping for every ounce to get decent performance, a ~45% increase is noteworthy.

Deltaboy
April 24, 2010, 11:13 AM
NICE!!!! I would like to get one.

MCgunner
April 24, 2010, 03:36 PM
My chrono results with my 1-5/8" mini folder .22 Mag. mirror mec's, running 80-95 ft/lbs. At 130 ft/lbs, the .32 long/new police and .32 ACP have a good bit more energy. 40 ft/lbs isn't much when comparing larger cartridges, but in these little guys that are scraping for every ounce to get decent performance, a ~45% increase is noteworthy.

120 to 140 lbs is inadequate to make a lot of difference IMHO from 100 ft lbs. What I'm more interested in is comparisons in penetration. I don't have a .32, though. Closest I can come is a .31 pocket remington which pushes a 60 grain bullet, conical cast, to about 900 fps with a full, compressed charge of 777. That bullet is very pointy and should penetrate well, much better than anything that might expand. I don't have a .22 mag NAA, yet, but I get 1250 fps with 2.0 grains of Bullseye behind NAA's 30 grain conical in my NAA Super Companion. I only get about 800 fps from my .22LR NAA shooting 36 grain Federal. TOO, I bought a spare cylinder for the Super Companion to be used for a quick reload, "quick" being relative. It's MUCH quicker than pulling the cylinder, dumping the cases, loading one at a time. No, it's not a 1911. :rolleyes: I have a folding holster grip on the gun. I very much like this little gun, can hit a paper plate from 15 yards off hand slow fire and at 15 feet it's pretty quick to point shoot.Sure, I'd rather be carrying one of my real calibers, but this is a thread about smaller than J frames and these guns have a very real self defense application in a modern society. We can't all run around with our P model Colts strapped on these days.

I'm saving milk bottles and stuffing them with news paper. I've got five stuffed at the moment and another ready to stuff. The day before I do my testing, I plan to fill the jugs with water. Then, I'll dump the water before loading up for the range trip. I think this will better simulate jello than does water bottles. Water is very hard, the surface tension thing. Just belly flop off the high dive sometime to get the idea. But, the main thing, the wet news print in bottles is easy to transport and can take more'n a couple of shots before all the media drains out and it's useless. I got this idea watching youtube vids of penetration tests. So long as I'm just comparing different loads for penetration in the same media, I think it will be relevant. I'm not sure anything short of 10 percent ballistic gelatin can relate much as to bullet expansion, but I'm just interested, with these little calibers, in penetration potential via testing them in a similar media. I really don't think expansion in calibers this small is desirable, anyway, if it limits penetration. There's simply not enough energy to waste. I say that about .380 and it's pushing 200 ft lbs. I guess if the little rounds had any sectional density if would be different, but they don't.

Just my thoughts on the subject. I've yet to do the penetration stuff. I've had a lot of bad things going on in my life that have kept me busy, but hope to get around to it soon because I'm curious. I also want to shoot some traditional calibers like 9x19+P JHP and especially a 94 grain 9x18 Makarov into these bottles. I'll do that last. Might not be enough left of the bottles if I do it first. :D

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