Cap n Ball revolvers loaded long term....


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Loosenock
April 23, 2010, 03:00 PM
Back in the 60's I remember an old timer friend of my dad who carried an original C & B revolver, could have been a 1851 Colt's or clone, maybe 4 1/2" to 5 1/2" barrel. I remember looking at it often. One of the things I remember clearly was the wax over the ball in the cylinder. Ace explained to me the cross fire that could happen in these types. I think it was bees wax and oil mixture of some sort. Dad said he always had it loaded this way and he could go years before shooting it.

I can see the powder staying good, but how long could the cap stay good? I guess it would be easy enough to change the cap now and then.

Anyone ever keep a C & B long term loaded? How long?

I've always kept mine unloaded until ready to fire.

Just a curious ponderance. Any comments would be appreciated.

'Loose

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Pulp
April 23, 2010, 03:06 PM
I've kept mine loaded up to 6 months using Bore Butter over the bullets. Caps form a fairly airtight seal if they're the right size.

For extreme long term storage, I would seal the chambers with bee's wax, then drip bee's wax over the caps and nipples.

A friend of mine, on a bet, loaded and capped his Navy, sealed the chambers with bear tallow, then put it in a bucket of water over night. All six fired the next AM.

JNewell
April 23, 2010, 04:13 PM
I wouldn't do it but I can't cite a scientific study to prove it's a bad idea. My reasons both relate to the fact that black powder is hygroscopic (sucks water out of the air). Since you can't hermetically seal the chambers (though I'm very impressed by the post above, honestly), eventually the BP is going to lose potency, become harder to ignite. Also, and possibly more likely, it's going to corrode the chambers and, if they're steel, the nipples.

There must be some 19th century learning/writing on this? It's an interesting question.

Palehorseman
April 23, 2010, 04:38 PM
Wild Bill Hickok meticulously reloaded his Colt Navies every morning, but that was just because his life depended on them firing when needed.

kanook
April 23, 2010, 04:50 PM
Haven't PB revolvers found from the Civil War been found still charged and fired?

Texas Moon
April 23, 2010, 06:20 PM
I keep mine unloaded.
Have one of them new fangled back-end loaders for short notice work.

I'd suspect if you could get the chamber clean and dry of oils, once loaded correctly, the charge would stay good for many many years if kept dry.
Why would you want to tho?

mykeal
April 23, 2010, 06:46 PM
Civil War era cap and ball revolvers and rifles have been found with viable black powder loads dating over 100 years. By viable I mean they fired. I do not know of any chronograph data from such guns, so we don't know if the loads were degraded.

We do know that loads dating several months old have produced chrono results that matched fresh loads.

Yes, black powder is mildly hygroscopic. However, the absorption of small amounts of water don't materially degrade the performance, and people who have left their guns loaded report no significant corrosion. The absorbed water is contained in the powder matrix and is not available to provide the free ions necessary to support oxidation (rusting). In addition, black powder which has been saturated with water can be dried out and thus returned to full performance.

I don't advocate keeping black powder guns loaded for any significant period of time, but not because of concerns about corrosion or performance degradation. I just believe you should be proficient with your guns, especially if you're going to hunt with them or use them for self protection. And being proficient means regular practice - actually using them. If you stay proficient, you need to shoot them, which keeps them loaded, then unloaded, cleaned and maintained. Kind of the opposite if keeping them loaded for a long time.

Acorn Mush
April 23, 2010, 06:59 PM
...eventually the BP is going to lose potency, become harder to ignite. Also, and possibly more likely, it's going to corrode the chambers and, if they're steel, the nipples.

I wouldn't bet my life on it NOT going off, sealed in the manner described. Regarding powder losing its potency, I have personally used percussion caps that were well in excess of 60 years old to ignite black powder that was almost 90 years old. Both caps and powder worked VERY well! Also, if black powder corrodes steel, it takes a very long time to do so in my experience. The above-mentioned powder was dispensed from its original steel DuPont can which had no corrosion on the inside. It didn't look new inside, but it wasn't rusted either. Wish I still had that old can!

The point of these comments is to state the fact that black powder, kept dry, will last many, many, many years, unlike modern smokeless powder.

kenno
April 23, 2010, 07:12 PM
It is a known historical fact that the old gun fighters would reload daily when they could. Black powder is so hydroscopic that it can swell in the chamber and move the ball foward causing the gun to jam during cycling. Grease on both ends of the cylinder can prevent this but apparently that was not a common practice amongst gun slingers back in the day.

Oyeboten
April 23, 2010, 07:17 PM
Far as I know...

If a Loaded Cap and Ball Revolver had been found in King Tut's Tomb, chances are it would fire just fine as-is, with the Caps and load that it has...even if one might want to Lube the Mechanism first, before firing.

Dry climes, it could probably sit loaded and ready for ever.


If BP may absorb ambient atmospheric humidity in humid surrounds, it can also later release it in arid aurrounds...so, that aspect would depend on the phase of continuity of climatic conditions of when the Arm is being tried, as for how good ignition is going to be.

A little Bee's Wax around the Caps, melted and applied with a fine Brush, and ditto around the Ball ends in the Cylinder, would probably be best if a long term sitting is anticipated.

MCgunner
April 23, 2010, 07:20 PM
With the heat and humidity around here, I'd not trust it more'n a few days if carried. I'd at least recap it. But, if kept in the AC I don't see a big problem. Maybe I'm too paranoid, just me. I have carried one in the saddle bags of a motorcycle for several days in summer and it still fired, though, and it was in the bags in the heat/humidity the whole time. It was loaded with Pyrodex.

mykeal
April 23, 2010, 10:55 PM
Black powder is so hydroscopic that it can swell in the chamber and move the ball foward causing the gun to jam during cycling.
Do you have any documentation of that?

Oblofusc
April 23, 2010, 11:24 PM
I have a Uberti 2nd model Dragoon repro--great gun, 100% reliable, accurate as heck. I only use black powder, 35 grains FFFg if I remember right, and use Hornady swaged lead .457" balls that shave nice rings off when loading 'em into the cylinders. Above the powder/under the balls I put in the lube-soaked felt .44 wads as in my experience they seem to keep things a bit cleaner in extended shooting sessions. I use Remington or CCI caps, I forget, but whichever they are they fit good & snug. As with all my BP guns I clean them impeccably and lube/protect with only natural (non-petroleum) lubes & oils. I don't put anything over the balls, because chain fires aren't caused by fire coming in around the balls (especially where they've shaved lead off going in) but by fire coming in through loose or ill-fitting caps. I thought everyone knew that. But I digress . . .

So a few years back I loaded the Dragoon during BP season and carried it in a holster. As I expected to hunt again before season was over I did not fire it and went home. Turned out I never went back, and it sat in the garage. I live in north Florida and it's generally humid most of the time, but the garage door stays closed mostly and it's not like it sat outside. Guns and tools don't spontaneously rust in my garage so that ought to give you a general idea of the humidity level.

I think it was at least a year and a half until I shot it. To my great surprise, it failed to fire on 2 or 3 of the 5 loaded cylinders. I seem to recall that the caps went off but not the charge. I recapped the unfired cylinders and one fired, but I recall I had to recap at least one again before it finally went off.

I had not expected that. I was confident that all would fire as though I had just loaded them.

The lesson for me, anyway, is that BP guns ought not sit too long and be relied upon to work.

Oyeboten
April 23, 2010, 11:49 PM
This must have been a drag for folks in the Cap and Ball era, explorers, settlers, military, when in the Tropics or other very humid and rainy climes.


Yeeeeeeesh...


I bet the painted-on-molten with a fine Brush Wax would help though.


Might be modern day compositions of Caps are more sensitive to humidity than the old Fulminating Murcury was...don't know, but could be...then again, don't know how well the old fomulas did if unsealed, for that matter.

RebelRabbi
April 24, 2010, 12:04 AM
I read that General Lee's 1851 Navy was found and fired some years after he loaded it during the Civil War. There is no reason that Dry Powder would harm the metal.

button
April 24, 2010, 12:11 AM
Dealing with this subject, I have been told by gun dealers that Pyrodex is highly corrosive than BP and to never shot Pyrodex in a BP gun due to this. So Mcgunner you have not noticed this or was I told another sales pitch to buy what they want me to, so there pockets would contain more of my money?

Hellgate
April 24, 2010, 01:20 AM
I've had two different C&Bs that I CAREFULLY loaded with powder and ball being very sure to not have any oil in the chambers or on the nipples. I did put some automotive grease over the balls but no lube wads. One gun was kept under my pillow in a seedy rental where the landlord kept wiping pus out of his bad eye. The other gun was loaded up for a "finishing gun" in case I wounded a deer and since I got no deer that year the gun sat in the dry safe for about 6 months. In each case when I fired the guns months later at least two chambers per gun failed to go off and those that did were varying in their report for the pillow gun ('61 Navy 36cal) but OK for the finishing gun (44 cal US Marshall). So, it is my firm opinion that one would be best to rely on modern guns with FRESH modern ammo to save your life unless there is absolutely no alternative. Both guns are reliable when shot in CAS matches or plinking and freshly loaded.

Oyeboten
April 24, 2010, 01:30 AM
Automotive grease, or anything which can or will 'migrate' would be a bad idea for having on any Ammunition or C&P sealing...it will migrate and wick into things, spoiling Powders, spoiling Primers, whether C&B or Metallic Cartridge.

Non petroleum based Wax...stays put, no seperations, no migration...no spoiling.

OYE
April 24, 2010, 03:10 AM
Here's some data for a cylinder that was loaded for 30 days in a relative dry climate. We had it in the field several times during that span. Had no precipitation.

First the reference data for a fresh cylinder load with the same lot number
powder and caps.

1858 New Army ( Remington ) 40 grains Pyrodex Pistol Powder
Reminton #10 caps, no wad, Beeswax (softened) over ball ) .454 cast roundball.

Ave: 1185 fps E.S. : 67 S.D. : 25
( common performance from this pistol )

Data from the cylinder left loaded 30 days. Note: same load as above.
Nipples and caps were not sealed with beeswax on this cylinder.

Ave: 1084 fps E.S. 5 S.D 2


We don't have data from a cylinder with the caps and nipples sealed
( that we have valid reference data from the same powder- cap lots at least.) We have a cylinder loaded at present that we may get that data on
if it's not discharged in the normal course of " doing business".

We generally don't like to leave cylinders loaded long term, but 2 weeks or so
is fairly common around here and 30 days happen now and then as well.
We generally keep one cylinder loaded for "serious" work and one loaded for
"less serious " work.

madcratebuilder
April 24, 2010, 08:17 AM
The stories of old west gun fighters reloading daily is a little over blown IMHO. That would be 2,190 round balls and caps each year, and 12,775 grs of black powder. In a time and place where resources were not always available I would think these men would have learned to seal the balls and nipples with bees wax and only reload after being caught in wet weather for a period of time.

MCgunner
April 24, 2010, 09:44 AM
Dealing with this subject, I have been told by gun dealers that Pyrodex is highly corrosive than BP and to never shot Pyrodex in a BP gun due to this. So Mcgunner you have not noticed this or was I told another sales pitch to buy what they want me to, so there pockets would contain more of my money?

I have never noticed that it was any worse than BP. With either, clean the gun ASAP after shooting. Don't let it set three days before cleaning or either will eat metal. Both have sulfur in the mix. 777, OTOH, may not be nearly as corrosive since it has no sulfur. That ruins the neat smell, but I'm learning the benefits of 777 lately. I like it a lot for just shooting. I'm not a reenactor nor am I nostalgic for the good old days. I was born in 1952. By the time I was of shooting age, they'd invented smokeless. I got into BP in the early 70s and by the 80s, I could not find BP for sale anywhere, so by necessity, I took up pyrodex. I see little difference, to be frank, except that shipping laws allow stores to actually sell pyrodex and make a profit.

Loosenock
April 24, 2010, 10:22 AM
It seems I've heard or read that in populated areas of the developing west that had gunsmiths. It was common for some folks of the night and saloon life and perhaps others who wanted a gun just for defense. Would just take their revolvers to the gunsmith to have them reloaded as needed. Many of the cutdown belly guns favored by gamblers, ladies and such had the reloading levers done away with during the modification into a snub nose.

'Loose

Foto Joe
April 24, 2010, 10:46 AM
This thread has gotten a lot of play fast so I'll put a little more into the mix.

Last year while fixing freeze breaks in irrigation lines in my back yard, I happened to dig up almost a dozen 32-40 copper cartridge rounds. My house was built in 1903 and I can make the assumption that since these were copper, they pre-date the house by a few years at least.

Though the outside of the copper cartridges were corroded badly enough that I couldn't read the caliber on the primer end without a little sandpaper, the inside of the two that I broke with a shovel were in excellent condition. Not only that but the powder lit off better than I expected (luckily I used a BBQ lighter) and the one primer I tapped with a punch made my ears ring. I'll note here that I WILL NOT do that again.

These things had been buried in the Wyoming dirt for in excess of 100 years!! I have no doubt that if I had a 32-40 I could chamber them and they would fire.

The issue as I see it is not the powder nor is it the primer. If you're gonna load and leave a BP gun it had better be sterile inside that chamber and nipple. A lubed wad between powder and ball will eventually leach into the powder and since lubricant by its nature isn't supposed to dry out, that's the end of your powder charge.

Would I leave one of mine loaded?? I've considered it, but while we're on the road this winter I've got two hand guns and my 72 caliber pistol (Mossberg 500 w/pistol grip) in the rig or the tow vehicle at all times so it isn't something that is necessary.

Besides, at least half the fun of shooting 'em is putting all the stuff in the holes in the first place isn't it??

trog
April 24, 2010, 11:41 AM
I have convinced my wife that my muzzliloader must be fired evey week or so to keep it in good workin order.
I dont want to change my stand now.

TheRodDoc
April 24, 2010, 11:42 AM
I have learned a lot about these old guns second hand from a man that was wounded in the civil war. When he recovered from his wounds he started a hardware store and gunsmith shop in a new building in a small town near where I live.

In later years he befriended a young 20 year old man to be his helper. This man in his mid 40's bought the business from the veteran. And I came along at 20 years old and met that man when he was in his late 70's. He too was a gunsmith of these old guns of which he learned a lot from his old boss. The store was still full of the old guns when I met him.

When I met him he had a son already in his 40's. The two of them had one of the largest colt and winchester collections I have ever seen. And doubles of each gun in two separate collections.
A lot of them came from the first owner.

The old store was full of these old original guns when I met them. Over 300 of them just in the store. And that many more in his house. I only got to learn from him for about 6 or 7 years when he died. I spent a lot of my spare time there.
His son took over the store after he died.

That old store was just the way it was in the 1800's all the way up to 1980 when it closed.

I bought all my guns from them. Some originals and the rest first and second generation colts.
He was selling the originals to me pretty cheap as far as that goes but me at 20 just couldn't afford to many of them. The generation colts were around $120.00 to $150.00 range and more affordable for me.

In about 1979, that whole collection in the store was stolen. The thieves had one car but couldn't get all the guns into it so they stole another car to put the rest into. They fled to Denver. selling some on the way and the rest to a tobacco and gun agent and which they were apprehended. But I don't think the guns were ever returned.


Any I learned a lot about how they fitted and used these revolvers. They told me they were common sense guns. Designed with common sense, built with common sense, shot with common sense and worked on with common sense.

As far as fouling problems go common sense says, stop the leaks. No hammer blow back and tight cylinder gap.

Common sense says grease doesn't mix with gun powder.

For sealing up a gun for the weather you can use some wax.

But unlike a lot of you think the cap and nipple weren't covered in wax.

The hot wax was dabbed onto just the rim of the nipple. Then the cap was pushed onto it. This was done from a burning bee's wax candle and dipping a wire or nipple pik into the melted wax and then touching it to the end face of the nipple. Done right this applys a nice small bead of wax all the way around the nipple face.

And a very slight bead of wax was put around the ball to barrel joint. Not filled level full.


Most percussion caps were waterproofed. (Don't know about now days).

To protect the charge of powder in the cap from moisture, and also to secure it from falling out, it was covered over, in each cap, with a drop of pure shellac varnish at the time of manufacture.

Loosenock
April 24, 2010, 12:03 PM
Cool story Doc, and good info. Thanks

Great stuff fellas, keep it coming.

'Loose

JNewell
April 24, 2010, 04:30 PM
I wouldn't bet my life on it NOT going off

I absolutely, totally, completely agree with that. If my life depended on the gun going "bang" on demand, however, I'd do like Wild Bill. "Could" and "will" are potentially very different condtions! ;) YMMV.

Loosenock
April 24, 2010, 05:11 PM
"Wild Bill".....another interesting ponderance. He carried a pair of Colts 1851 Navys in .36 caliber. I never heard if he fired them at the end of the day then cleaned and reloaded them before he went to bed or what. Seems like someone wanting their name to fame would be on to that and catch him with unloaded revovlers. He could have a bullet worm to pull the lead, clean and reload. By doing that he could always have at least one revolver loaded and ready.

Smith and Wesson had their Model 3 in .44 and .45 cartridges available in 1870. Colt had Richards "Conversion" of 1851 revolvers (the model preferred by Hickock) available in 1871. That was 5 to 6 years before Hickock's death on August 2, 1876. If he was so concerned about it, why didn't he carry the Smiths or Colt/Richards?

I'd like to get myself one of Uberti's Colt Richards conversion revovlers. Nice pieces.

'Loose

Chasing Crow
April 25, 2010, 07:41 PM
Well, I'm a little of topic but I have left my flintlocks with hunting loads for a year and they never failed to fire. No caps to consider obviously.

PRM
April 25, 2010, 10:06 PM
I have been shooting 2nd Generation Colts revolvers since the late 70s. I generally don't leave them loaded over 2 - 6 months before shooting and cleaning. I have several and rotate them to the range. I have never had any problem with misfires or with the powder degrading (same with caps). The longest I have let one go was about a year (got deployed back in 03) - again with no noticeable affects.

I have never had a problem with rust as a result of leaving them loaded. Just make sure to meticulously clean them after firing.

In fact, I have shot 20+ year old powder with 20+ year old caps without any problems when I found some powder and caps I had stored in a foot locker and forgot about.

Never understood why some people think black powder or caps will degrade any faster in/on a gun than in its original container, given similar conditions.

I agree with madcratebuilder that the majority of the ole timer's most likely did not discharge and clean their guns on a regular basis - want proof, look at some of the originals. Many of them were fired and left for days without cleaning - pitted bores and cylinders are more common than not.

button
April 26, 2010, 10:23 PM
I have convinced my wife that my muzzliloader must be fired evey week or so to keep it in good workin order.
I dont want to change my stand now./QUOTE] Trog, all I can say is keep up the good work, This sounds like something i need pass on to my wife also! Thou i do not think she would beleive it! [QUOTE]I have never noticed that it was any worse than BP. With either, clean the gun ASAP after shooting. Don't let it set three days before cleaning or either will eat metal. Both have sulfur in the mix. 777, OTOH, may not be nearly as corrosive since it has no sulfur. That ruins the neat smell, but I'm learning the benefits of 777 lately. I like it a lot for just shooting. I'm not a reenactor nor am I nostalgic for the good old days. I was born in 1952. By the time I was of shooting age, they'd invented smokeless. I got into BP in the early 70s and by the 80s, I could not find BP for sale anywhere, so by necessity, I took up pyrodex. I see little difference, to be frank, except that shipping laws allow stores to actually sell pyrodex and make a profit.
Mcgunner, Thanks again for the helpful info. I guess I will switch to 777 instead of Goex.

robhof
April 26, 2010, 10:58 PM
I've left my ROA loaded for up to a year with no problems, actually I have spare cylinders and took out my loaded cylinder on the last day of B/p season and forgot about it til the next year, it fired fine.

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