MicroBalrog vs. Tom Mauser: The Battle Rages On


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MicroBalrog
July 14, 2003, 04:36 AM
----- Original Message -----
From: Boris Karpa
To: safemauser@yahoo.com
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 11:35 AM
Subject: Guns: an opinion from Israel


Dear Sir!

First, let me say, that I live in Israel, a country with tough gun control laws. I'm interested in the gun control debate, and I've read your column, and your responses to your reader's letters. Let me comment on some of them:


"it was revealed that the parts for a load indicator cost only about 8c and those for a magazine disconnect safety cost about 11c".

A magazine disconnect safety is very unsafe, as it can malfunction to prevent your gun from firing when it most needs too.

Load indicators might be good (I'm not very familiar with gun design), but it seems to me they are not very necessary, as people who would use a gun responsibly, would follow the Four Safety Rules and always treat the gun as if it was ready to fire, and never aim it at something or someone they didn't want to shoot, thus rendering it safe. An irresponsible operator would not be aided by the load indicator.

"When it comes to “terrorism,” guns are the bigger culprit in America".

Guns are not the culprit. Criminals are the culprit. If guns were the culprit, California, Washington D.C., and Massachusets would be the safest areas in the world.

"Dr. Daniel P Johnson tells me that Klebold and Harris “could just as well have used bombs, knives, poisons, etc.” But the fact is, Doctor, that they did NOT."

Sir, even though I feel sincere grief about the death of your son, I would point out one thing: according to federal legislation, nobody could legally possess a gun withing 300 feet of Columbine High School when your son was murdered. Nobody could have saved him. In my country, after having several attacks on schools, we made it obligatory for all schools to be guarded by armed guards, and we handed out gun licenses to some of our teachers. We never had a shooting in any Israeli school again. The "Armed Teacher program" seems to have worked far better than any "Gun-Free Schools act" ever will.

"Answer this: if a terrorist used dynamite to blow something up, wouldn’t you be a bit concerned about how they got it? Might you not be mad at a dynamite seller?"

No, unless there's proof that the dynamite seller knew aforehand that the person buying the dynamite is a terrorist. The legislation that's designed to protect gun dealers from recless lawsuits has an exception in it from suits where there's evidence that the dealer knowingly committed an illegal sale. And in return, riddle me this: The Oklahoma Bombing was done with a truckful of fertilizer. You don't expect anyone to sue the fertilizer seller, right?

"If so, then I guess you don’t mind giving them the free ticket of immunity, but I think most Americans would disagree once given the facts."

The "immunity" bill is not a free ticket, as it still allows suing people over faulty product or illegal sales.

"But I never heard ANY of you claim they had any significant increase in gun homicides!"

I think it's a case of miswording. Obviously, gun homicide is irrelevant. The UK has seen an increase in total homicides, and so did Australia. If you wish, I can refer you to the appropriate sources. However, it is interesting to see that these countries have seen a slight increase in gun homicides as well.

"How can gun activists say the proliferation, glorification and easy access of guns aren't factors?"

They probably are, but they're positive factors. Remember that a disproportionate amount of gun crime happens in parts of the US with tough gun control. Also, I think you should consider the fact that in the early 20th century, when the Free World had almost no gun control, these countries still had less crime than the USA. Banning and heavy regulating of guns only caused crime to rise.
Another contributing factor is the evil heritage of racism: the fact that a disproportionate amount of African-American still lives in squalid conditions, poverty, and lacks appropriate access to educatoin, thus a disproportionate amount of gun violence is "black-on-black" violence. I'm not trying to be racist here, and the issue is not a "race issue", it's an economics issue. Take a group of WASP's, and treat them like African-Americans were treated for such a long- and you'll get yourself a load of trouble.

"because one kid in a gun control country goes on a shooting spree, that means that gun control is a failure?!? "
You would be correct, except that's not the only time that happened in Europe, and a lot of people go on killing sprees with items other then guns. Last year, someone drove an SUV into a crowd of Israelis, killing 7. I don't remember the press covering that, either.

Please, feel free to comment on my letter. I'll be pleased to clarify any points I have made.
Please do not take any of the above points as an expression of disrespect to the tragedy that happened to you and your family.
Sincerely Yours,
Boris Karpa,
Bat-Yam, Israel

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dinosaur
July 14, 2003, 08:55 AM
A good reply but I`m sure you noticed a lack of similar replies quoted by him. I`ll wager yours will also be ignored as it`s easy to rebutt the idiots but not the facts.

I wonder what the ratio of thoughtful replies to name calling there actually were. It`s almost useless to argue with someone with an agenda and has control of it.

Tropical Z
July 14, 2003, 07:27 PM
He'll never read it.Mauser is the :evil: and as clueless as they come.

Ian
July 14, 2003, 08:17 PM
He'll probably read it and might even respond to it, but you won't get anywhere. A bunch of people, myself included, have gotten into discussions with Mauser, and he is such a 'true believer' that you'll never convince him of anything. If banging your head against a wall is enjoyable (which it can be, I suppose) then go for it, but know what you're in for.

Standing Wolf
July 14, 2003, 08:33 PM
If leftist extremists were capable of reason and intellectual maturity, they'd be conservatives, not leftist extremists.

Justin
July 14, 2003, 08:50 PM
Just post his responses on the web, thereby allowing him to out himself for the irrational and close-minded person that he is. I saw some of the responses he sent to Ian, and the man is downright unpleasant.

Ian
July 14, 2003, 10:20 PM
That reminds me, Justin. I did post some exerpts from my dialog with him back on TFL. The full text is on my computer at school, so I can't add anything from later emails...but here's the link to what I posted originally: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=88287&highlight=tom+mauser

edit: my handle on TFL was Ceol Mhor.

Diesle
July 14, 2003, 10:34 PM
This Tom Mauser (http://www.freecolorado.com/2003/06/unsafemauser.html) ...? Sounds like a real dingle berry to me. Why are you wasting your time with that guy?

Diesle

Tropical Z
July 15, 2003, 12:25 PM
He IS a dingle berry!!!:p
I havent heard that term used in AGES!!!:D

Ed Straker
July 15, 2003, 01:06 PM
Next time, ask him how it feels to be paid $73,000 a year to pimp his dead kid.

Stickjockey
July 15, 2003, 10:16 PM
Followed Diesle's link. It sounds to me like the perfect opportunity to call for more firearms safety instruction in school:evil: :rolleyes:

MicroBalrog
November 27, 2003, 03:35 AM
Mr. Karpa:

You ended your letter asking me not to take "take any of the above points as an _expression of disrespect to the tragedy that happened to you and your family." OK, I won't, but I will take your letter as an attempt to badger me. Frankly, I've heard all your points before, and even addressed some of them in that letter you referenced. I find them weak and illogical.

For example, you said "magazine disconnect safety is very unsafe, as it can malfunction to prevent your gun from firing when it most needs too..." So are the attorneys of manufacturers who are installing them fools? And what evidence do you have of malfuinctions? Or is the disconnect safety just a threat to the machismo and bravado of tough gun owners?

In Europe you said "a lot of people go on killing sprees with items other then guns." How many? Are there mass knifings? Drive-by strangulations? Come on, look at the #s of gun deaths in comparison. For the UK and Australia you said, "Obviously, gun homicide is irrelevant." Excuse me? You're trying to dismiss my whole point! How dare you? The point is, would you rather 100 gun homicides/year or 11,000? Do the math! "it is interesting to see that these countries have seen a slight increase in gun homicides as well." Slight? 5? 10? Get real! The #s in the US are staggering in comparison--a few more murders there are nothing in comparison. You're trying to make a mountain out of a molehill, as we say in the US.

You blame the US problem on racism and economics. Oh please. You sound like Charlton Heston in "Bowling for Columbine", where he blamed it on "mixed ethnicity." Oh yeah, let's blame it on the blacks--even though most killers are white. Blame it on the minorities. You tried to reduce your bigotry by adding the economic factor. But do you think there aren't economic disparities and poverty in the UK? Or Germany? Do you think there are no minorities in those countries? Do you not think there is a history of racism in Australia and Canada? Get real. You ignore the obvious--that one of the biggest (though not the sole) differences is how America treats guns and gun laws. But people like you will never acknowledge that. People who worship guns are not about to admit such a thing.

That's why I won't bother to answer any more of your questions. I'm not afraid. I take delight in it, as I'm sure my son would if he were here. He was very logical. But I would rather spend my time with my family and worshiping God, not hung up on defending a "weapon of mass destruction." I spend little time answering the questions of people whose minds are made up and wish to badger me. We'll just have to agree to disagree and then seek out the support of the rest of the population.

My goal, Mr. Karpa, is to invest my time on the many millions of Americans who are in the middle on this issue. People like the 70% here in Colorado who voted for a gun control ballot issue in 2000. 70%! When we let the people decide, they turned down the NRA. That's who I am trying to educate and influence. They will decide these issues, not those of us on the two opposite ends. And I'm convinced that over time they will come to my side of the issue, because they are seeing it's not just "criminals" who are the problem. I LIVE here in the US, Mr. Karpa, and I read the newspaper thoroughly. You should see just how many of our gun deaths are the result of husband shooting wife, disgruntled worker shooting co-workers, student get revenge on students, road rage shooters, disturbed teens using their own parents' easily accessible guns to blow their brains own in a suicide, etc. It's no longer just the typical "ciminal" any more, and Americans are understanding that. It's all around us. Meanwhile my opponents will continue their futile attempt to explain away the shameful 11,000 gun deaths of each year. Good luck.

Tom Mauser

Boris Karpa <karpa@netvision.net.il> wrote:
I sent this to you before and you have't responded.
----- Original Message -----
From: Boris Karpa
To: safemauser@yahoo.com
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 11:35 AM
Subject: Guns: an opinion from Israel


Dear Sir!

First, let me say, that I live in Israel, a country with tough gun control laws. I'm interested in the gun control debate, and I've read your column, and your responses to your reader's letters. Let me comment on some of them:


"it was revealed that the parts for a load indicator cost only about 8c and those for a magazine disconnect safety cost about 11c".

A magazine disconnect safety is very unsafe, as it can malfunction to prevent your gun from firing when it most needs too.

Load indicators might be good (I'm not very familiar with gun design), but it seems to me they are not very necessary, as people who would use a gun responsibly, would follow the Four Safety Rules and always treat the gun as if it was ready to fire, and never aim it at something or someone they didn't want to shoot, thus rendering it safe. An irresponsible operator would not be aided by the load indicator.

"When it comes to “terrorism,” guns are the bigger culprit in America".

Guns are not the culprit. Criminals are the culprit. If guns were the culprit, California, Washington D.C., and Massachusets would be the safest areas in the world.

"Dr. Daniel P Johnson tells me that Klebold and Harris “could just as well have used bombs, knives, poisons, etc.” But the fact is, Doctor, that they did NOT."

Sir, even though I feel sincere grief about the death of your son, I would point out one thing: according to federal legislation, nobody could legally possess a gun withing 300 feet of Columbine High School when your son was murdered. Nobody could have saved him. In my country, after having several attacks on schools, we made it obligatory for all schools to be guarded by armed guards, and we handed out gun licenses to some of our teachers. We never had a shooting in any Israeli school again. The "Armed Teacher program" seems to have worked far better than any "Gun-Free Schools act" ever will.

"Answer this: if a terrorist used dynamite to blow something up, wouldn’t you be a bit concerned about how they got it? Might you not be mad at a dynamite seller?"

No, unless there's proof that the dynamite seller knew aforehand that the person buying the dynamite is a terrorist. The legislation that's designed to protect gun dealers from recless lawsuits has an exception in it from suits where there's evidence that the dealer knowingly committed an illegal sale. And in return, riddle me this: The Oklahoma Bombing was done with a truckful of fertilizer. You don't expect anyone to sue the fertilizer seller, right?

"If so, then I guess you don’t mind giving them the free ticket of immunity, but I think most Americans would disagree once given the facts."

The "immunity" bill is not a free ticket, as it still allows suing people over faulty product or illegal sales.

"But I never heard ANY of you claim they had any significant increase in gun homicides!"

I think it's a case of miswording. Obviously, gun homicide is irrelevant. The UK has seen an increase in total homicides, and so did Australia. If you wish, I can refer you to the appropriate sources. However, it is interesting to see that these countries have seen a slight increase in gun homicides as well.

"How can gun activists say the proliferation, glorification and easy access of guns aren't factors?"

They probably are, but they're positive factors. Remember that a disproportionate amount of gun crime happens in parts of the US with tough gun control. Also, I think you should consider the fact that in the early 20th century, when the Free World had almost no gun control, these countries still had less crime than the USA. Banning and heavy regulating of guns only caused crime to rise.
Another contributing factor is the evil heritage of racism: the fact that a disproportionate amount of African-American still lives in squalid conditions, poverty, and lacks appropriate access to educatoin, thus a disproportionate amount of gun violence is "black-on-black" violence. I'm not trying to be racist here, and the issue is not a "race issue", it's an economics issue. Take a group of WASP's, and treat them like African-Americans were treated for such a long- and you'll get yourself a load of trouble.

"because one kid in a gun control country goes on a shooting spree, that means that gun control is a failure?!? "
You would be correct, except that's not the only time that happened in Europe, and a lot of people go on killing sprees with items other then guns. Last year, someone drove an SUV into a crowd of Israelis, killing 7. I don't remember the press covering that, either.

Please, feel free to comment on my letter. I'll be pleased to clarify any points I have made.
Please do not take any of the above points as an expression of disrespect to the tragedy that happened to you and your family.
Sincerely Yours,
Boris Karpa,
Bat-Yam, Israel



Tom Mauser
Remembering Daniel always, at www.DanielMauser.com



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MicroBalrog
November 27, 2003, 04:47 AM
Mr. Mauser:

I have never intended to badger you. I have responded to all your points and could, again. I wouldn't even BOTHER, except that you accused me of bigotry. I'm Jewish. My parents, my grandparents, have suffered more from bigotry than you can ever imagine - so don't tell me about bigotry.

The attorneys? The attorneys do that because of the threat of silly lawsuits. Don't you think other companies did the same stuff to avoid stupid lawsuits on other issues? Or that no faulty guns were made before?

Yup, there are are mass killings in Europe. (Try doctor Shipman and his 200+ victims, not a shot fired). And yes, gun homicide is irrelevant. Total homicide is relevant. What if the difference, pray tell, between being killed by a gun or being killed by a knife? Finally, can you point me to one single research proving that what you're proposing will work? Because no sane scientist thinks that there's any crime reduction due to gun control (Colin Greenwood (UK), Valeri Polozov (Russia), John Whitley (Australia) are a few examples I could give). There might or not be a negative influence (maybe crime increases due to gun control, maybe it doesn't). I would point out the UK, Australia, and a few other countries that had a "significant increase" in total murder rates, though. But it's not relevant - you're the one promoting "reasonable limits" to people's liberty - so the burden on proof is on you.

On racism. Now have you even read my letter? Because I'm starting to doubt it. You actually are factually incorrect, because minority members commit a disproportionate amount of violent crimes. Now, why saying this doesn't mean I'm being racist? Because I have NOT blamed it on the blacks. I have blamed it on the whites. The USA has a history of racism unlike any other country. Think of the KKK, think of segregation, think of slavery, think of all the more hidden racist actions being committed right now. Want to stop crime? Make sure the people in those "inner-city ghettos" are properly employed. And that's not about blacks, that's about whites. And I'm not really sure what Heston said in "Bowling" - see, they cut out 20 out of 25 minutes of the interview. So until Moore grows a conscience and releases the raw footage, we won't know. As to "the only difference" - please prove that the measures you suggest would work. Have they worked in the UK? Have they worked in Russia? Have they worked in Israel, Australia, Sweden? No.

Let me put it like this: the opinion of the majority doesn't matter. The majority executed Socrates. The majority voted for Hitler. Not everything is the majority opinion. The majority isn't "always right". Besides which - how did Colorado end up having that nifty state pre-emption law and CCW law you have now? Wasn't that decided by the majority?

I read US newspapers a lot, and maintain active contact with some who write for them. By now, practically everybody knows that the average US murderer is a person with previous arrests and convictions and that most US murders have previous criminal background (shootings over turf). Newspaper often misrepresent reality by choosing what they print. Who'd read endless "drug dealer shoots competitor" and "junkie kills unarmed victim for spare change" stories? However "office worker freaks out" are more readable and sell more issues. Which are really more common? Ask the FBI people. On the other hand, here's some nice stuff I can find in US papers:

Double Murder Suspect Captured in Texas
Courageous pizza operators fight back, foil attempted robberies (IL & OH)
Would-be victim thwarts robbery (IN)
Man defends himself against former girlfriend's jealous lover (MI)
Seattle Store owner Shoots Robber.

That's just from a short two-minute search. Is my point clear?

The people murdered in history can be visualised as a football field. On the playing field are the people who where killled with guns when they where shooting back. On the seats are the people who were shot, gassed, murdered by street gangs or national government and couldn't defend themselves. They died because they couldn't have had a gun to defend themselves - or, in the case of children, because their adult relatives and friends couldn't fire a shot in defense. See those frail, haggard people over there, looking as if they haven't eaten for ages? See that woman? That's my grand-grandmother. Why, you ask? Aushwitz. See those people out there? That's my uncle. Why, you ask? Stalin. And see those Arab guys? Sabra nand Shatila. See that sharp-looking airline pilot? September, 11th. And here's all the school shooting victims, up there. Gun Free Schools Act. And yes, your son is there too.

I'm not religious, sir. But I pray for one thing: that you never end up in a situation where you actually, desperately need a gun. I never want you, or any other person on this planet to ever need to say "I wish I had a gun right now".

SY,
Boris Karpa
P.S. I don't own guns. I have also decided never to become member of the NRA - for ideological reasons.





----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Mauser
To: Boris Karpa
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: did you get this?


Mr. Karpa:

You ended your letter asking me not to take "take any of the above points as an _expression of disrespect to the tragedy that happened to you and your family." OK, I won't, but I will take your letter as an attempt to badger me. Frankly, I've heard all your points before, and even addressed some of them in that letter you referenced. I find them weak and illogical.

For example, you said "magazine disconnect safety is very unsafe, as it can malfunction to prevent your gun from firing when it most needs too..." So are the attorneys of manufacturers who are installing them fools? And what evidence do you have of malfuinctions? Or is the disconnect safety just a threat to the machismo and bravado of tough gun owners?

In Europe you said "a lot of people go on killing sprees with items other then guns." How many? Are there mass knifings? Drive-by strangulations? Come on, look at the #s of gun deaths in comparison. For the UK and Australia you said, "Obviously, gun homicide is irrelevant." Excuse me? You're trying to dismiss my whole point! How dare you? The point is, would you rather 100 gun homicides/year or 11,000? Do the math! "it is interesting to see that these countries have seen a slight increase in gun homicides as well." Slight? 5? 10? Get real! The #s in the US are staggering in comparison--a few more murders there are nothing in comparison. You're trying to make a mountain out of a molehill, as we say in the US.

You blame the US problem on racism and economics. Oh please. You sound like Charlton Heston in "Bowling for Columbine", where he blamed it on "mixed ethnicity." Oh yeah, let's blame it on the blacks--even though most killers are white. Blame it on the minorities. You tried to reduce your bigotry by adding the economic factor. But do you think there aren't economic disparities and poverty in the UK? Or Germany? Do you think there are no minorities in those countries? Do you not think there is a history of racism in Australia and Canada? Get real. You ignore the obvious--that one of the biggest (though not the sole) differences is how America treats guns and gun laws. But people like you will never acknowledge that. People who worship guns are not about to admit such a thing.

That's why I won't bother to answer any more of your questions. I'm not afraid. I take delight in it, as I'm sure my son would if he were here. He was very logical. But I would rather spend my time with my family and worshiping God, not hung up on defending a "weapon of mass destruction." I spend little time answering the questions of people whose minds are made up and wish to badger me. We'll just have to agree to disagree and then seek out the support of the rest of the population.

My goal, Mr. Karpa, is to invest my time on the many millions of Americans who are in the middle on this issue. People like the 70% here in Colorado who voted for a gun control ballot issue in 2000. 70%! When we let the people decide, they turned down the NRA. That's who I am trying to educate and influence. They will decide these issues, not those of us on the two opposite ends. And I'm convinced that over time they will come to my side of the issue, because they are seeing it's not just "criminals" who are the problem. I LIVE here in the US, Mr. Karpa, and I read the newspaper thoroughly. You should see just how many of our gun deaths are the result of husband shooting wife, disgruntled worker shooting co-workers, student get revenge on students, road rage shooters, disturbed teens using their own parents' easily accessible guns to blow their brains own in a suicide, etc. It's no longer just the typical "ciminal" any more, and Americans are understanding that. It's all around us. Meanwhile my opponents will continue their futile attempt to explain away the shameful 11,000 gun deaths of each year. Good luck.

Tom Mauser




Tom Mauser
Remembering Daniel always, at www.DanielMauser.com



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trooper
November 27, 2003, 07:46 AM
Hi Boris,

I'm impressed with the amount of work you put into this argument, but you probably won't convert a person who has lost his son to gun violence.

Of course that doesn't mean he's right but emotionally he is way too involved to really think through this issue.

Good writing on your side, though.

Since the good man asked about mass killings in Europe: there have been two major school killings in Germany so far. One happened back in the '60s when we had fairly good gun laws. A guy entered a school with a spear and a homemade flame thrower and started killing students. An elderly gentleman heard the screams from the outside, got his .22 and administered one single headshot to the BG.

The second one happened two years ago. Nobody was armed, the police was too late, and 17 people, including the killer, died.


Regards,

Trooper

MicroBalrog
November 27, 2003, 07:54 AM
Here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31122&highlight=tom+mauser+letter) is my first letter.

Trooper:

Here's his e-mail: safemauser@yahoo.com

Tell him, not me.:D

trooper
November 27, 2003, 08:00 AM
Oh well... I've had my share of spirited debates with antis lately...

Besides this, I'm a lazy bastard :)


Regards,

Trooper

ojibweindian
November 27, 2003, 08:54 AM
I can't respond to this guy. I'd be cyber-screaming at the top of my lungs; not conducive to rational, logical, and impassioned debate.

MicroBalrog
November 27, 2003, 08:59 AM
I kinda thought what I wrote was a cyber-scream...
I just remember being absolutely enraged when I wrote it.

semf
November 27, 2003, 09:04 AM
My wife went through a similar tragedy as Mr. Mauser and I belive trooper is right and so is Mauser on one point he cannot be converted or reasoned with You and I know that guns are tools but to him they are a symbol of all that is wrong in the world and a reminder of what his son will never be.He can't be reasoned with by a stranger into thinking any other way. So leave him to his grief. I do however agree with countering any public attempts at demonizing guns. As he states in his letter he plans on converting all the fence sitters he can.

MicroBalrog
November 27, 2003, 09:10 AM
So leave him to his grief.

I would if not his incessant efforts to promote gun control nuttery.
The best I hope is that he stops actively promoting it - or that some fence sitter reads my letter.:D

Ian
November 27, 2003, 09:33 AM
Heh...I did this myself a year or two ago, and got about the same result. Did squeeze some good quotes out of him though (and he threatened to put exerpts from my letters up on his web site, but never did). I think Mauser's head would implode before he would convert.

Here are the juiciest bits of my correspondence (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=88287&highlight=tom+mauser) (I was Ceol Mhor on TFL).

semf
November 27, 2003, 09:33 AM
I do however agree with countering any public attempts at demonizing guns. As he states in his letter he plans on converting all the fence sitters he can.

Harry Tuttle
November 27, 2003, 09:44 AM
Tom takes pieces of silver from Sarah to promote his windmill tilting.

DON'T MESS WITH TRUE BELIEVERS.
In the time you spend trying to convert one hard core antigun person to our
side, you could have gone out and motivated and organized 20 people who
already think like you do. Go with the flow. It's easier on your nerves, and
much more effective. Personally, I have converted several anti-rights true
believers, but never again!
Lots of NRA members are not registered voters. A lot of gun owners aren't
NRA members. Even more folks have no idea of their elected officials' positions
on gun issues. Where is your time most effectively spent? Think about this
before you spend an hour writing a clever response to a silly message you found
somewhere on the internet.



http://www.jaspar.net/_wsn/page3.html

MicroBalrog
November 27, 2003, 09:47 AM
Harry Turtle: I have converted many true anti-gunners to the cause. :D

Ian: Think I did well? I fear got my rage get over my better senses.

Tamara
November 27, 2003, 10:15 AM
Mr. Mauser doesn't want my letter.

He doesn't want to know how the constant, maudlin harping of people like him has helped mold me into the callous, heartless jerk I am today.

So his son got killed. Tough. That impacts me how? How exactly does someone rationalize taking away my guns, my beer, my car, my motorcycle, or my breakfast cereal all because their precious tyke met an untimely demise at the hands of some flake half a world away from me? Piss off, Tom; I didn't shoot your kid, so don't touch my stuff.

trooper
November 27, 2003, 10:21 AM
Tough but true. I'm not going to start a debate with someone who most certainly won't listen to me, either.


Regards,

Trooper

semf
November 27, 2003, 10:47 AM
After going to his web site I have amended my position. While his grief is his private business, his public stance makes him fair game.

Here's my e-mail to him
I have just visited your site and reviewed your counters to pro gun arguments, most of which I did not agree with.
However I would like to know your argument against the fact that in states where concealed carry is legal and where gun restrictions are more tolerant towards gun owners crime rates are going down. There are many examples of this.
In the case of your son's death, The same scenario stared to unfold in Pearl Mississippi, until the principle retrieved his own gun to end the encounter. I have to wonder how the Columbine incident would have played out if a responsible adult had immediate access to a firearm.

Ian
November 27, 2003, 11:48 AM
Like I said, I would be shocked if anyone changed his mind through correspondence. You made a lot of cogent points, but they're all irrelevant when dealing with this guy, because he doesn't care. So how well you did depends on whether writing him made you feel any better.

semf
November 27, 2003, 11:58 AM
So how well you did depends on whether writing him made you feel any better.
That's pretty much what it was about:)

ojibweindian
November 27, 2003, 12:36 PM
Tam

You're much nicer about it than I would be. Believe me when I say that what I would probably write to him would make my boot camp C.C.'s blush.

I'll concentrate on preaching to the fence-sitters as I have absolutely no patience or compassion for anti's.

MicroBalrog
November 27, 2003, 12:59 PM
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Mauser
To: Boris Karpa
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: WHAT?


You see no evidence that gun control works?!? You need only look at the 11,000 gun murders in the US vs. 100 in the UK, 200 in Canada, 50 in Japan, 100 in Germany, etc etc etc. I'm sorry that you're too blind to see. My son is dead because of the Gun Free Schools Act? How despicable a statement. Your letter didn't address most of my questions and points, Mr. Karpa, so don't tell me I didn't address yours. Don't bother writing back. Like I said, I'll spend my time with my kids and worshiping God. Do you have kids to spend time with? And what do you worship?

MicroBalrog
November 27, 2003, 01:02 PM
No. The mere comparison of Nation A vs. Nation B vs. Nation C is not sufficient proof that anything works/doesn't work. (Sweden has DOUBLE the US murder rate, so?).
Back in the early 20th century most Europe had absolutely no gun control - and it still had less murders than America. Heck, you could buy grenades over the counter in Germany and Britain, and both these countries had less murder and violence than they have now, does that prove anything at all? You could buy machineguns and sawed-offs in Russia at that time, and you'd be safer in Moscow 1904 than in Moscow 1997, so?

I don't worship anything, I'm an agnostic, but if I were religious, I'd be a National-Orthodox Jew. No, I currently don't have children, so?

oldfart
November 27, 2003, 01:09 PM
"There are none so blind as those who WILL not see."

Tom Mauser is a lost cause. He wears his dead child on his sleeve as an emblem. While it is supposed to signify his sorrow, in reality, it merely shows his need for attention. Prior to Columbine, Tom Mauser was a nobody. Now, thanks to the blood of his child, people listen to him and some even think of him as a martyr. He isn't worth disrespect, let alone civil discourse.

agricola
November 27, 2003, 01:11 PM
not one to rain on someones parade but wouldnt this be better done on one thread and stickified (if the mods concur), or inviting Mauser to THR?

MicroBalrog
November 27, 2003, 01:13 PM
Methinks inviting him here would culminate in extremely non-Highroadish antics on behalf some people on both sides. Bad mojo.:uhoh:

oldfart
November 27, 2003, 01:36 PM
Did anyone even know Tom Mauser existed before Columbine? How many newspapers quoted Sarah Brady before President Regan got shot? Did Carolyn McCarthy amount to anything before her husband was killed?

These people all share something besides having relatives who were shot. They're all 'featherless vultures' in that they feed on death and misery. I'm reminded of stories I heard of Hitler enjoying the torture and killing of personal enemies.

I will not write to him. He does not deserve that much of my time or attention. He's already gotten too much of both.

AZRickD
November 27, 2003, 02:21 PM
A better example from Europe would be the slaughter of the disarmed Muslims in Bosnia. Roundabout 100,000 people slaughtered.

Or you could go to Rwanda and read the gun control laws which read quite like those of New York. 103 days in the spring of 1994 and 800,000 Tutsis are slaughtered by government-backed Hutus as UN and US troops looked on.

Rick

Mad Man
November 27, 2003, 03:09 PM
I started a thread back on the Firing Line questioning Tom Mauser's credibility (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99096).

As part of his group's agenda to ban "assault weapons," he claimed that his son was killed by one (the Tec-9), even though official reports say otherwise.

Either Mauser is lying, or the official reports are wrong. I still don't know which is the truth.


Tom Mauser: Did He Lie About Son's Death?

Daniel Mauser (http://www.danielmauser.com/) was one of the 13 innocent people killed at Columbine High School (Littleton, Colorado) in 1999. After the shooting, Daniel's father, Tom Mauser, became a gun control lobbyist, working for a group called SAFE (http://www.safecolorado.org/).

While a lot of stupid rhetorical attacks have been made against Mr. Mauser by gun rights activists, one item was never addressed:

Did Tom Mauser lie about his son's death to advance a political agenda against "assault weapons."

In the immediate aftermath of the shooting, controversy surrounded assault weaons, since a Tec-DC9 was used in the shooting. The "assault weapon" issue died down in a few weeks, when gun control advocates focused on gun show issue instead.

Speaking at a rally outside of the National Rifle Association convention in Denver, Colorado, on May 1, 1999, Tom Mauser referred to the Tec-9:


Mauser told protestors that there are reasonable guns.

"But the time has come to understand that a TEC-9 semiautomatic like the kind that was used to kill my son is not used to kill deer," he said.



SOURCE: "8,000 rally against gun violence (http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0502pro40.shtml)" Denver Rocky Mountain News. May 2, 1999. (Bold added).

A year later, when Mr. Mauser was lobbying for a state referendum to impose background checks on all sales at gunshows (the so-called "gun show loophole"), a forum about Amendment 22 (the referendum) sponsored by several gun control groups was held in Boulder, Colorado, on the University of Colorado's campus.


David Winkler, a freshman at CU and the co-founder of SAFE Students, spoke about his growing frustrations with gun control. He said that he and a few friends tested the gun-show loophole in June 1999.

"We were able to buy a Tek [sic] nine, 32-round semiautomatic assault pistol," Winkler said. "Be bought it in a half hour. There was no background check, no ID check. The guy didn't even ask how old we were...and it was obvious we were teenagers."

Winkler said that the gun was the same type of weapon that killed Tom Mauser's son Daniel at Columbine High School.


SOURCE: "Guns topic of annual forum." Colorado Daily (http://www.coloradodaily.com/) (Boulder, Colorado). October 3, 2000. pp. 1 -2 (Quote is from page 2. Bold added).



The Jefferson County Sheriff's Office official report (http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/report/columbinereport/pages/toc.htm) states that Dylan Klebold was carrying the Tec-DC9 and a shotgun, while Eric Harris used the Hi-Point carbine and a shotgun [ http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/report/columbinereport/pages/equipment_text.htm ].

The report also states that Daniel Mauser was shot by Eric Harris between 11:29 - 11:39 am, in the library [ http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/report/columbinereport/pages/sketch_0080.htm ]. Since Klebold, not Harris, was using the Tec-DC9, Mauser must have been shot by Harris' Hi-Point carbine.

Ergo, Tom Mauser has been lying, or the official report is wrong.

...


Later on in that thread, I pointed out another instance where Mr. Mauser made that claim:


...
From a letter by Tom Mauser to Charlton Heston, dated May 11, 1999, at http://www.danielmauser.com/HestonLetter.html


My son was shot by a Tec DC9, a 9 mm, semi-automatic gun with a 30-bullet clip. What practical purpose is there to this gun? I have never known a hunter to use this type of weapon to shoot a deer. Have you?

...

Mad Man
November 27, 2003, 03:26 PM
Did anyone even know Tom Mauser existed before Columbine? How many newspapers quoted Sarah Brady before President Regan got shot? Did Carolyn McCarthy amount to anything before her husband was killed?


Tom Mauser was the director of the Transit and Rail Unit for the Colorado Department of Transportaion (http://www.dot.state.co.us/), with a salary of $70,000 in 1999. This is what he was paid by SAFE Colorado (http://safecolorado.org/) when he took a leave of absence to become a full time lobbyist for a year. He has since been promoted to Intermodal Planning Manager. He was certainly not a household name before his son was murdered, but it wouldn't surprise me if he was well known within certain government circles before.

Jim Brady, of course, was the press secretary for President Ronald Reagan. I believe the Brady's were a popular couple in Washington DC and Republican social circles at the time.

I have no idea what Carolyn McCarthy did before her husband was killed in the 1993 Long Island rail shootings.

ojibweindian
November 27, 2003, 04:13 PM
Micro's right. Reallllllly bad mojo for him to come over.

Glock Glockler
November 27, 2003, 08:16 PM
For Tom Mauser to come here is to engage in a session of mental masturbation. You will not convert him, and you might only inspire him to work even harder in promoting his filth.

If you want to actually promote RKBA, instead of talking about RKBA, you'll take a newbie shooting, let them have a good time, and plant some seeds of freedom. I think I'm pretty hardcore RKBA activist now, but I was not active until I had been bitten by the shooting bug. Take someone shooting, pray it will bite them, and continue the mission.

AZRickD
November 27, 2003, 09:11 PM
When there were near zero gun laws in both America and Great Britain in 1900, both countries had homicide rates at or just under 1 per 100,000.

Add Alcohol Prohibition (the original War on Drugs) in the 1920s and we see organized crime taking a foothold in this country, along with the increase in homicides.

Wright and Rossi and other researchers found that 75 percent of homicides were committed by adult felons (killing other felons 71% of the time). Most of the remainder were committed by like-minded juvenile offenders.

The lion's share of our homicide rate comes from the War On SomeDrugs, and smuggling of people through our southern border.

Billll
November 27, 2003, 09:22 PM
Right after Columbine, Mr. Mauser was a popular fixture around here at the anti-gun rallies, MMM, Physicians for Social Responsibility, SAFE Colorado, etc. Several wannabe pols also appeared along sid him to take a position, and size Tom up, to see if any of them could ride into public office on his back. Most of them noticed the vocal showing of gunnies at his outings, and decided that this horse wouldn't make it all the way to the statehouse, much less Washington.

Mauser pushes anti-gun and other nanny-state type scocial causes in and around his neighborhood, and as such, bears watching. As of right now, he's on the wrong side of history. With a bit of dilligence, we'll keep him there.

Sympathy for the loss he suffered, of course, but his reaction reminds me of a Mark Twain observation on Southern justice in 1850. I don't have the exact quote, but it's from "Letters from the Earth" I believe, and suggests that, a (minor) crime having been committed, and the guilty culpret being unfindable, the possee would, at minimum, find and lynch a black man.

Mr. Mauser, being unable to find an arguably guilty party, is now leading a lynch mob.

Don Gwinn
November 27, 2003, 09:26 PM
Now that this thread is all in one place as it should be, my thoughts are few:

There's just not much point in debating Mr. Mauser unless you have an audience. He will not be swayed. Giving Mr. Mauser the absolute benefit of the doubt, he believes what he does because it makes it easier for him to deal with his grief over his son's death. Nothing you can say will ever be that important to him.

jimpeel
November 27, 2003, 10:40 PM
Mauser says he wants "loaded chamber indicators" on firerams. These actually do no good as there are those who will ignore them.

A good example of this is Dix v. Beretta U.S.A. Corp. http://www.nrawinningteam.com/beretta.html in which the plaintiffs argued that had there been a "loaded chamber indicator" on the weapon that killed this boy, the tragedy would have been averted. It was their argument that but for the lack of this simple device, that boy would be alive today.

It was at about this point that the defense walked up to the witness and asked "You mean like this one here on the murder weapon?"

Their case went out the window post haste.

Beretta also won damages against HCI for their part in this which was upheld on appeal. http://www.nrawinningteam.com/beretta2.html

There is nothing in the agenda of the antis to make firearms harder to manufacture or bankrupt them with R&D costs. The agenda is to legislate defects into firearms so they can be declared unsafe, or defective, in court.

The courts have never found firearms to be inherently unsafe as a consumer product when used in the manner prescribed. This is a ploy on the part of the antis to build those defects in so they can bankrupt the manufacturers through non-stop litigation for provably defective products. They won't, however, admit in court that those defects are there at the demand of groups such as theirs.

jimpeel
November 27, 2003, 10:59 PM
Tell Mauser that you know that the purpose of the devices he wants incorporated into firearms is not for safety but to bankrupt the industry with lawsuits when those devices fail. I'd be interested to see his reply to that.

Also, I loved this partDon't bother writing back. Like I said, I'll spend my time with my kids and worshiping God. Do you have kids to spend time with? And what do you worship?where he tells you not to write him again but then poses questions for you to answer. Sound File (http://www.barbneal.com/wav/ltunes/Bugs/Bugs34.wav)

BluesBear
November 28, 2003, 08:07 AM
Of course there will be more deaths in America that in Japan or England or Sweden.
Look at the map Sparky, the USA is BIGGER and has MORE population.
We also had more BIRTHS than those countries.

That makes mere totals invalid as a comparison.

You need to compare percentages.
The number of deaths per X number of people.

Then to be fair you also nee to compare for all countries.

Numbers of legally owned guns per X
Numbers of illegally owned guns per X
Number of justified shootings/deaths per X

Then you'll see that the good old USA isn't as blood thirsty as they say.

GSB
November 28, 2003, 08:24 AM
When a person has taken a socio-political position to the level of psychopathology, as Mauser has, there will never be any convincing him of anything. I feel human compassion for anyone who has lost a loved one through human violence -- but unfortunately some individuals deal with it by adopting monomaniacal obsessions over some symbol they believe to be the cause of their suffering. They are as psychologically pathetic and indisputably dangerous as Ahab in his obsessive quest to kill his whale, and they will go to their graves cursing the object of their monomania and attempting to drag the rest of humanity along on their fool's errand.

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
November 28, 2003, 10:28 AM
MicroBalrog

Another contributing factor is the evil heritage of racism: the fact that a disproportionate amount of African-American still lives in squalid conditions, poverty, and lacks appropriate access to educatoin, thus a disproportionate amount of gun violence is "black-on-black" violence.

Your knowledge of America seems to be quite shallow, stereotyped and about 25 years out of date. The present-day economic status of Blacks in the US is nothing like what you describe. It is vastly better as most would agree.

On racism. Now have you even read my letter? Because I'm starting to doubt it. You actually are factually incorrect, because minority members commit a disproportionate amount of violent crimes. Now, why saying this doesn't mean I'm being racist? Because I have NOT blamed it on the blacks. I have blamed it on the whites. The USA has a history of racism unlike any other country. Think of the KKK, think of segregation, think of slavery, think of all the more hidden racist actions being committed right now.

Think of personal responsibility. :banghead: Perhaps Tom Mauser is correct questioning you about racisim. Your paternalistic attitude towards Blacks in the US is indeed racist. To paraphrase you: adult Black males in the US can't control themselves and should be absolved of personal responsibility for thier own behavior, based upon group grievances. What garbage.

By analogy, you as a descendent of European Jews, shouldn't be held accountable for your actions today because of all the pogroms under the Czar, or Hitlers death camps.

The USA has a history of racisim "unlike any other?" Are you saying the US has a worse history on race relations than the Nazi Germans?, the Soviets?, The Belgian Congo?, The Israeli Jews?

How about you demonstrate your convictions and advocate letting the Palestinians languishing in the West Bank - Gaza concentration camps return to the homes that were stolen from them in '48. "Unlike any other?" No, Israel has nicely duplicated and expanded on the Soviet model of population relocation, and the American system of Indian reservations.

Want to stop crime? Make sure the people in those "inner-city ghettos" are properly employed. And that's not about blacks, that's about whites.

Sorry, no white guilt here. My ancestors fought on the Union side during the Civil War. You recall that one don't you? Thats the one where for the first time in recorded human history, a majority racial-ethnic group (Whites) fought and died for the freedom of a minority racial-ethnic group (Blacks).

Again, your knowledge of the conditions of Blacks in the US is very shallow and stereotyped. Even in the worst sections of America's inner cities, over 85% of Blacks work and pay taxes. Those that don't typically have substance abuse issues or criminal records preventing them from doing do. Black unemployment has nothing to do with racisim except perhaps amongst a small number of rejectionist young Black males who consider getting an education and a good job to be "acting white" and actively discourage thier peers from doing so.

MicroBalrog
November 28, 2003, 11:02 AM
How about you demonstrate your convictions and advocate letting the Palestinians languishing in the West Bank - Gaza concentration camps return to the homes that were stolen from them in '48

Those that actually own homes in Israel may return IMHO. Most of the people in the West Bank do not. Actually most of the people don't live there in refugee camps either.

Besides - and the conditions of the current Palestinians do not cause the current popularity of Hamas and their ilk? The actions of the Soviets are not an indirect cause of the Chechnyan war? :rolleyes:

HABU
November 28, 2003, 01:53 PM
I wonder if Tom has ever considered changing his last name. It just sounds evil!:evil:

Justin
November 28, 2003, 02:45 PM
Don't even bother talking with Mauser. He's such an off-balance nutcase that the Brady organization asked him to scram.

El Tejon
November 28, 2003, 03:53 PM
Justin is right. The man endangered his child by putting him in a public school in an area where the Death Culture is firmly in control. He now projects the guilt he feels to inert mechanical devices.

He needs help.:(

Justin
November 28, 2003, 04:41 PM
not one to rain on someones parade but wouldnt this be better done on one thread and stickified (if the mods concur), or inviting Mauser to THR? If the guy weren't an overly-vitriolic borderline psychopath, I'd have no problem inviting him here to debate.

As it is, he takes everything personally and feels that he has to retaliate in kind. Given that we don't tolerate personal attacks here at THR I'd suspect that he'd get banned toot sweet.

Please note that we have had curious antis post here before, and so long as they adhered to the rules of conduct they were allowed to post questions, arguments, and comments.

I agree that it's much better to simply take a fence-sitter to the range and introduce them to the basics of shooting than it is to try and convince this guy.

Art Eatman
November 28, 2003, 06:59 PM
MicroBalrog: According to numbers published after both the 1990 and the 2000 Census, some two-thirds of all blacks in the U.S. are middle-class or better insofar as incomes.

There are more whites in poverty/squalor than there are blacks.

Art

Russ
November 28, 2003, 07:41 PM
Mauser needs to take a couple Valiums, wash them down with a beer and calm down for a few minutes. Sad to see this guy still trying to make a living off of his son's death.

MicroBalrog
November 29, 2003, 03:26 AM
There are more whites in poverty/squalor than there are blacks.

In absolute numbers, I presume?

Orthonym
November 29, 2003, 04:49 AM
We guys have to act nice, dontcha know.

That said, when it comes to Mausers, I prefer Peter Paul to Tom.

Orthonym
November 29, 2003, 04:56 AM
before my answer showed up? Sorta ruins the continuity.

semf
November 30, 2003, 12:59 AM
Well he replied to my e-mail. This guy is a nasty someboby ain't he.

Mr. Semf,

I checked my email on Thanksgiving morning and saw your message. My first thought was, "Does he have nothing better to do than this on Thanksgiving?" I certainly did--my family. I checked my email hoping to get comforting messages from family, friends or visitors to our web site. After all, holidays without our son are tough days for us. Then to get a message like yours. Now that I have a moment, I'm getting back to your message, but I won't have much to satisfy you.

Ya see, you didn't really give me much of a reason to respond. Don't you think I've already been getting email and phone calls from pro gun types for the past 4 years? Most have no intention of having an intelligent, logical discussion of an issue. They just insult me and spew out worn out cliches and ignore the real facts, like our shameful American gun death toll.

Why should I think you are any different, Mr. Semf? No, your email wasn't nasty or insulting, like many others. I appreciate that. But, that's how some others start. I send my reasoned response to their question, then they turn to name calling and ridiculous statements. (For examples of the crap I have received over the past four years, link to www.DanielMauser.com/hatemail.html.

While your email was not nasty, you did already say you "did not agree with" most of my arguments. More important, your email gave no salutation, offered no condolences, and said nothing about my son even though you visited the web site. That tells me something about you. And it's not positive.

So, there is little reason to offer more than a cursory response, much of it cut & paste from responses to others. Briefly stated, please note that the crime rate has been going down in this country, as it has in other nations, with the changing demographics and improving economy of the 1990s. To say that's all because of CCW is faulty and ludicrous. So much of CCW's glorification comes from John Lott, who has been discredited and has even admitted to 'losing' some of his data. Why do you think he's left academia and sought safe refuge in a conservative think tank?!? From a societal and Christian standpoint, I think it's awful we've reached such a sad state, where ! we've become so awash in guns that people feel the solution is even more guns.

I could offer much more but why? I spend little time answering the questions of people whose minds are made up and only wish to badger me. We'll just have to agree to disagree and then seek out the support of the rest of the population. My goal is to invest my time on the many millions of Americans who are in the middle on gun issues. They will decide these issues, not those of us on the two opposite ends. And I'm convinced that over time they will come to my side of the issue, like they did in Colorado when 70% of the voters approved Amendment 22, closing the gun show loophole.

Tom Mauser




I wrote:

I have just visited your site and reviewed your counters to pro gun arguments, most of which I did not agree with. However I would like to know your argument against the fact that in states where concealed carry is legal and where gun restrictions are more tolerant towards gun owners crime rates are going down. There are many examples of this.
In the case of your son's death, The same scenario stared to unfold in Pearl Mississippi, until the principle retrieved his own gun to end the encounter. I have to wonder how the Columbine incident would have played out if a responsible adult had immediate access to a firearm.







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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BluesBear
November 30, 2003, 01:21 AM
I think some words of wisdom from a fellow THR member are appropriate here.

It would appear that for some, no explanation is required... for others, no explanation will do.

While I am sorry for Mr. Mauser's loss, I am even more sorrowful for his misguided passions since. He is so consumed by his anger that he has cloaked himself with a mantle of self-righteousness that no logic can penetrate

I fear he is a lost cause.
:(

semf
November 30, 2003, 01:52 AM
I don't know why but I responded to his response but I'm done with him now. While not a total fence sitter I do have some reservations on the issues of gun ownership in America. If I were a true and total fence sitter a response like that would have at least leaned me to where I am now. This guy probably does more harm to his position than I can do good for mine. Anytime a fanatis meets with an agnostic(for want of a better word)You usually get a fanatic and somebody leanig as far from that guy's position as possible. We have our share of fanatics here which also turn me off but they are usually balanced by the reasonable members.
Here is my rebuttal to his response for what it's worth
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the first place Mr. Mauser I did not send the e-mail on Thanksgiving I sent it the day before during normal business hours I am not responsible for when you choose to open it.
Secondly I was not contacting you in regards to your relationship to a Columbine victim. I was contacting you in regards to your position as an officer in a gun control advocacy group. I was sent to one part of your site not the entire site.
As you yourself noted I did not spew insults. Why would you think that I would resort to name calling. I contacted you to get an answer to a real question, that you must believe you are qualified to answer given your position. If your response to my query is any indication it is easy to see why people end up not liking you. I feel you have attacked me for no reason, All this tells me alot about you which is not positive.
I asked an intelligent question and gave reasons for my position you responded with accusations and personal attacks. And by the way I'm not at all sure where I stand on the gun control issue in total. But unlike you I am willing to look at both sides of the issues and be educated by people more knowledgeable about the issues than I. Also I should mention that my wife suffered tragedy even more grievous than yours and she is more pro-gun than I. I'm one of those fence sitters that you claim to be aiming at, She firmly believes now that someone with good intentions and a gun could have saved her and her family from their fate. That is where the question about a responsible adult with a gun at Columbine came from, not some cut and paste as you allude to.
I will still seek answers to my questions, but not from somebody as apparently self righteous as you

jimpeel
November 30, 2003, 03:07 AM
Here is my letter to Mauser:In recent communiqués to persons who frequent discussion boards, you have touted the benefits of loaded chamber indicators and magazine disconnects as sensible gun safety measures.

In Dix v. Beretta U.S.A. Corp. http://www.nrawinningteam.com/beretta.html the plaintiffs argued that had there been a "loaded chamber indicator" on the weapon that killed this boy, the tragedy would have been averted. It was their argument that, but for the lack of this simple device, the boy would be alive today.

As it turned out, the weapon that was recklessly pointed at Kenzo Dix and fired, killing him nearly instantly, had such a device. This was pointed out in court.

Dix lost the case and was ordered to pay Beretta U.S.A. Corp. the costs of their defense. http://www.nrawinningteam.com/beretta2.html

So having these devices will still not keep the families of those killed by the reckless actions of another -- like ignoring the loaded chamber indicator -- from suing manufacturers which have no part in the misuse of their products. Anti-firearms agendists like BCPHV&MMM, SAFE Colorado, et al will still back these specious lawsuits just as they did in Dix v. Beretta U.S.A. Corp.

There are those who believe that the goal of the anti-firearms genre is to drive up the cost of firearms through the addition of these devices. I do not believe that this is true. It is my belief that there is nothing in the agenda of the anti-firearms genre to make firearms harder to manufacture or bankrupt them with R&D costs. The agenda is to legislate defects into firearms so they can be declared unsafe, or defective, in court.

The courts have never found firearms to be inherently unsafe as a consumer product when used in the manner prescribed. This is a ploy on the part of the anti-firearms agendists to build those defects in so they can bankrupt the manufacturers through non-stop litigation for provably defective products. It is my belief, in my heart of hearts, that the true aim of having manufacturers install these devices is to sue them into bankruptcy when those devices fail; even though those who will aid in those lawsuits, such as BCPHV&MMM and SAFE Colorado, are the ones who demanded their installation in the first place.

The same with “smart gun” technology. I believe that this is another ploy, a Trojan Horse as it were, by the anti-firearms genre to build into firearms those defects that have never been inherent to firearms and have never been found to exist by the courts.

As an example of how the law of unintended consequences, caused by the demands of groups such as yours, is having a negative effect; observe the following:

The police in California are now fearful of lawsuits by “victims” families who they are forced to shoot due to their aberrant acts. The new laws, which were touted by groups similar to your own, have declared certain firearms “unsafe” if they do not pass certain test criteria. The firearm that many, if not most, police officers use is the Glock line of firearms. In California, the Glock fails to pass the state, and anti-firearms groups, mandated tests due to the lack of certain criteria. As a result, the Glock line of firearms has been declared “unsafe” by the State of California.

Now, the police will have to defend in court why they shot the “victim” with, what has been declared by the State of California as, an unsafe firearm. This is the result of feel good legislation that will backfire on the very people the anti-firearms groups contend they are out to protect.

While I know that you very likely have the best of intentions in your quest; it must also be noted that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions such as yours -- as the above example illustrates.

I grieve for the loss of those who died at Columbine. I was living in Massachusetts at the time and placed a long-distance call to the Littleton PD. I told them that as there was likely a large boiler for the heating system under or adjacent to the school that they should check it to make sure the two perpetrators had not gimmicked it. If they had, they could have flattened the school and killed half of those residing within. It is interesting the damage one can do with a piece of wire and a pipe plug. Thank God these two were not that industrious.

Sincerely,

Jim Peel

semf
November 30, 2003, 10:01 AM
At first I thought every body was out of line criticizing Mr Mauser for using his son's name and accusing him of playing on his death, But after his last e-mail to me it is plain that he is nothing more than an attention hound.
He is still complaining aboutme not acknowledging "who he is". Even after I told him that I was interested in his opinion as a guncontrol advocate and not his status as the father of a victim in reteospect I guess I should have addressed him as Mr. Daniels Dad.
This guy does more harm to his cause than good. If you are not completely on his side then he is against you. I cannot tolerate fanatics for any cause.
I should post his final e-mailed reply but in all fairness i cannot post my response because I slipped a little of the high road, so I should not post his

N3rday
November 30, 2003, 12:15 PM
What weapon was his son shot with?

I am willing to bet it was aquired illegally. One of the Columbine kids was running around with a Tec 9, pretty sure that was illegally aquired!

BluesBear
November 30, 2003, 12:24 PM
on page 2 Mad Man said:
Since Klebold, not Harris, was using the Tec-DC9, Mauser must have been shot by Harris' Hi-Point carbine.

It really doesn't matter how they were aquired. Even though they were all technically illegally aquired. But HOW they used them.


When I was younger my very first revolver was a Colt 1917 in .45acp. It was purchased THROUGH THE MAIL!

Many of my friends had guns. We NEVER thought for one minute about taking them to school and shooting anyone.

When I was a freshman and we were studying WWII I asked permission to take my father's 7.65mm JP Sauer 38H that he had "liberated" from a German Officer to school for "show and tell". My parents thought it would be a good idea to ask the school how it should be done. The principal said I could bring it to school on two conditions. That the ammunition be kept separate and that I had the WEAR it at all times it was in the school building. So that's what I did. The empty magazine was in the pistol. The magazine loaded with the steel cased 1944dated ammo was carried in the magazine pouch on the holster.

One classmate brought a .303 British Enfield, and another brought an M1 Carbine, but they were allowed to store them in their lockers since they were bigger.

jimpeel
December 1, 2003, 01:35 AM
His reply: You said, "In recent communiqués to persons who frequent discussion boards, you have touted the benefits of loaded chamber indicators and magazine disconnects as sensible gun safety measures." Sure, without my knowledge. A Boris Karpa posted a letter I sent in response to him. And now I'm getting all these messages. Gee how nice of him...To which I responded:Regardless of Mr Karpa's issue with you, are you going to address my issues? I raise valid points of discussion and get a "You are bothering me" response.

If you are going to set yourself up as a pillar of the anti-firearms movement, you should expect to debate the issue when presented.

I contend that the anti-firearms movement seeks to install into firearms the defective components that will allow them to sue the manufacturers when those components fail. You have not contested that contention.

If you want to discuss the issue, I am available. If not, please do not suffer yourself any further reply and I will understand.

Sincerely,

Jim Peel

MicroBalrog
December 1, 2003, 06:34 AM
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Mauser
To: Boris Karpa
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: WHAT?


When you pointedly asked me to respond to your email of a weeks ago, you NEVER said you were going to post it on a discussion board. Why did you not do so? HAve you no consideration? I'm now getting unwelcome email from a number of people. Do you not think I already get emails from those who oppose? Why would I want more? Why would I want more badgering?

I don't appreciate what you have done. Perhaps I should mention your deeds (and email address) on my son's web site?

Tom Mauser



_____________________________________________




Dear Sir!
I did not expect that you would have any opposition to this whatsoever. I'm terribly sorry. I do, however, encourage distribution of my e-mails - as long as they are published in they entirety. You will noticed that I published yours without any alteration and have not taken any quotes out of context. My e-mail address is karpa@netvision.net.il . I am not afraid, and if anybody chooses to e-mail me, I will address any and all of their points just like I addressed all of yours ( and you never addressed mine). I don't have anything to be ashamed of or afraid of.
Sincerely Yours, Boris Karpa
P.S. I would also appreciate that you include a link to http://www.a-human-right.com.introduction.html with my e-mails.

Obiwan
December 1, 2003, 07:23 AM
He calls any discourse that doesn't support his position badgering???

If he doesn't want to be "badgered" he should try MOVING ON.

The man has a website yet gets mad when his comment s end up on the internet??

This man , of all people, should be ashamed to use the deaths of others to further his agenda.

I sent him an email in response to an article in the Denver paper...not realizing who he was, and when I got a reply about a month later he simply beat the Columbine drum again...totaly ignored any of the factual information I had included.

I feel sorry for him...he has picked the wrong way to bury his child.

Mad Man
December 1, 2003, 07:46 AM
From: Tom Mauser
To: Boris Karpa
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: WHAT?


When you pointedly asked me to respond to your email of a weeks ago, you NEVER said you were going to post it on a discussion board. Why did you not do so? HAve you no consideration? I'm now getting unwelcome email from a number of people. Do you not think I already get emails from those who oppose? Why would I want more? Why would I want more badgering?

I don't appreciate what you have done. Perhaps I should mention your deeds (and email address) on my son's web site?



I'm not an expert on internet etiquette, and MicroBalrog's "debate" with Tom Mauser on this forum strikes me as kind of cheesy. However, it is (or should be) common knowledge that you don't write anything in an e-mail that you wouldn't mind having other people reading. E-mail is not a secure format, and it's nature makes it very easy to copy and foward with no effort.

Also, unlike most of the other victims of Columbine, Tom Mauser has chosen to remain a public figure. Why does he expect his words on the subject of firearms policy to be private? After all, this was an exchange with a stranger, not a communication between friends or co-workers.

That being said, it is hypocritical of Tom Mauser to complain about his e-mails being posted on a public forum when he has done the same to others:



Why should I think you are any different, Mr. Semf? No, your email wasn't nasty or insulting, like many others. I appreciate that. But, that's how some others start. I send my reasoned response to their question, then they turn to name calling and ridiculous statements. (For examples of the crap I have received over the past four years, link to www.DanielMauser.com/hatemail.html




Why the Personal Attacks? Why the Hate Mail?
Tom wonders why some opponents see fit to attack rather than talk.


I knew that it would be difficult when I took on the issue of gun control. But I accepted the fact that there would be those who strongly opposed my views. And I was willing to exchange views with them. Never once did I suggest that my views could not be challenged just because my son was murdered. I haven't asked for sympathy or pity.

But I never expected the response I've gotten from some people during this gun debate: unwelcome mail and phone calls; nasty, insulting and even hateful mail; and even a death threat. These extremists don't analyze issues, they simply attack me. A Denver Post story in 2000 described the kind of hate mail (http://www.denverpost.com/news/election/pol0917c.htm) that I have received.

I have stayed quiet on this issue, but no longer. The Post writer tried to contact a few of the letter writers, but they either had unlisted numbers or denied writing to me.

But there were some brazen writers who provided names and even defiantly responded when I wrote back to them. Some said they didn’t mind my publishing their names and words herein—they just see it as a ‘badge of honor’ in promoting their beliefs. Some of what they wrote is too profane or sick to include here, but here are some examples that can be printed:

· Terry Chelius of Chief's Rest Ranch and Hunting Lodge in Whitewater, Colo., wrote "Get a life…This is a great vehicle to get your 15 minutes of fame, but try to get on with your life…get a job and buy a good gun." "…combine your obviously questionable IQ with your other vague attributes and make minimum wage somewhere sweeping out a gun store." "Tommy boy, you and Linda have ridden the tragedy like a roller coaster, never missing an opportunity to get your face on TV or in the papers."

· Richard W. Pope of Des Moines, Iowa, sent two postcards, calling me a "weak, pitiful man…who is trading on the dead body of your son…to get your name in the paper."

· Dr. Gary Huff of Montrose, Colo., said "you are using the death of your son to desecrate the constitution and for that you should be ashamed and your dead son pitied...Quit using your son as a political tool and everyone will leave you alone."

· Ray Hickman, a local coordinator of the Rocky Mountain Gun Owners, said I should "get a life and stop being the whore of SAFE Colorado."

· Some comments are said to me directly. As reported in a Fort Collins newspaper, Tyranny Response Team member Stephan Ziegenhagen chided me at a meeting for earning money (at SAFE Colorado) "on the corpse of your son." One of the leaders of the TRT, a gun shop owner named Bob Glass, told me he agrees with that characterization.

It’s especially disturbing that some unwelcome or nasty messages have come via the guest book in this web site. My web site volunteers screen out many of these hateful messages, and have kept dozens from reaching me. But some have slipped by, and it was especially bothersome that many of the nastiest

http://www.danielmauser.com/images/dm11m.jpg


were written around the time of the one- and two-year anniversaries of the Columbine tragedy.

Have these nasty letter writers no idea what a memorial web site is? Have they no compassion or common decency?!? I read the guest book messages to hear people reflect on Daniel, to express their sympathy, or to give my family words of encouragement, not to read hurtful messages.

Yes, the web site contains my beliefs on gun control. But they are also Daniel’s. My guess is that most of these cowards who leave unwelcome messages never even read the pages about Daniel. They just visited the web site to slam my beliefs. Some of them, like John Moloko of Pennsylvania and Ryan Kiehl of Colorado, don’t even bother to express a single word of sympathy—they just attacked my beliefs.

Yes, these nasty letters are a bit bothersome to me. But there are two things that help me overcome it all: first is the fact that I have already endured something more terrible than anything that these cowards have collectively thrown at me—the death of my son.

Second, I recognize that in his 15 short years of life my son Daniel probably developed more knowledge of this world, more respect and compassion for others, and more common decency, than all these jerks and cowards have in however many years they’ve been on this earth. For that I have so much to be proud of, and it speaks much louder than hatred and cowardice.

semf
December 1, 2003, 07:58 AM
The common thread in all his responses is that he never answers any questions, He's not there to debate his position his only purpose is to preach to the choir and hold court with his minions.
It should also be noted that he DOES NOT reprint detractors e-mails in their entirity only short exerpts.
He is a true idiot he did not get his position through any merit or political savvy he is simply being used for his son's name. If this were not the case no intelligent agency would use such a halfwitted and uninformed hypocrite as their spokesperson.

Bruce H
December 1, 2003, 07:59 AM
The poor man doesn't need badgered, he needs ballbatted.

jimpeel
December 1, 2003, 10:36 AM
It is logical to assume that had his son lived, but been crippled, he would be wheeling him around like a rolling prop like Sarah does with Jim Brady.

He would likely be like the guy we called "Mr. Babyback" who, after the John Ferri shooting at the lawyer firm in San Francisco, showed up at every opportunity with his infant child in a backpack carrier. He used the kid as a prop for nothing more than emotional exploitation.

The worst thing that ever happened to that guy was the kid outgrew the backpack. At that point, he went to his well-deserved obscurity.

Obiwan
December 7, 2003, 02:13 PM
All he has is emotion...no facts

Zedicus
December 7, 2003, 02:30 PM
The guy seems to be a boiling Kuldrin of Excrement that is trying to boil over...

Not a very plesant thought is it?:barf:

Mad Man
December 7, 2003, 02:39 PM
The poor man doesn't need badgered, he needs ballbatted.


Does Sarah Brady pay you to write stuff like that, or do you do it for free?

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