Minnesota hysterics: 6 month later.....


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goalie
November 28, 2003, 01:47 AM
http://startribune.com/stories/462/4237329.html

Published November 28, 2003 GUNS28

In the six months since Minnesota's new handgun law took effect, the number of people in the Twin Cities area with permits to carry firearms in public has at least quadrupled.

But while nearly 6,000 metro residents have lined up, and paid up, to get licenses to pack heat, the statewide response to the new law appears to be falling far short of a legislative estimate that 50,000 permits would be issued in the first year alone.

Figures compiled this week by the state Bureau of Criminal Apprehension (BCA) show that roughly 14,000 people across Minnesota have applied for the new permits, which became available May 28, and about 12,000 have gotten them.

What those figures don't show, however, is the number of people still licensed under the old law. The BCA counted 11,381 of them on Dec. 31, 2002, and many permit-issuing authorities noted a rush of applications last spring, just before the new law went onto the books.

The old permits, good for one year, cost nothing and carried no specific training requirements, but applications were often denied in the past at the discretion of the issuing authorities. Applicants pay up to $250 in sheriffs' fees and costs of mandatory training to get the new five-year permits.

Police groups were among the most outspoken critics of the new law while it was being debated in the Legislature.

The heads of two organizations say they've heard of no problems from their constituents so far and don't plan to lead efforts to change or repeal it.

"We fought this thing for six years," said Dennis Delmont, executive director of the Minnesota Chiefs of Police Association. "We're tired out. We want to focus on other things."

Among the other things: a proposal to transfer authority to issue permits to buy handguns from police chiefs to sheriffs. The new law already had stripped the power to issue permits to carry guns from the chiefs and gave it solely to Minnesota's 87 sheriffs. Delmont said the no-fee purchase permits, which require background checks of applicants, could be handled better by the sheriffs, too.

Bill Gillespie, executive director of the 7,000-member Minnesota Police and Peace Officers Association, also said he's dropping out of the battle, at least for now.

"My board is tired of having the membership at each other's throats over the issue," he said. "People in other states say it takes three or four years for problems to crop up. Right now, there's too few people actually carrying a firearm here to make an assessment."

Different effects

Under the old law, chiefs and sheriffs had broad discretion to deny permits to carry, and it was mostly exercised in the big metropolitan counties. Last year, for example, 89 percent of all permits were issued outstate, which is home to less than half the state's population.

With the new law, practically any adult who gets the required training, pays the application fee and passes a criminal and mental health background check must be granted a permit. About half the new permits have been issued in the Twin Cities area.

The changeover has had almost mirror-image effects in the Twin Cities and outstate.

"We had 200 people apply in April and May" before the new law took effect, said Chris Greene, who manages gun permits in Otter Tail County, a lake-dotted expanse of northwestern Minnesota with 56,000 residents. As of Dec. 31, the BCA reported, 1,289 of them had permits to carry handguns.

Immediately after the change, permit applications in Otter Tail County dried up to almost zero, although they have picked up lately. In October alone, 92 applications came in, and Sheriff Brian Schleuter has issued 228 of the new permits.

"Now they're signing up for classes like crazy," Greene said. Another rush of applications is expected in many outstate counties next spring as old permits expire.

Sticker shock

In addition to experiencing sticker shock at the new costs of getting armed, many outstate gun enthusiasts found training classes few and far between in their areas. Residents of southwestern Pipestone County, for example, only recently could get training as nearby as 30 miles away in Slayton, said Sheriff Dan Delaney.

"That's why I'm seeing an increase" in applications now, he said. He has issued eight new permits, the same number as last year.

By comparison, Hennepin County Sheriff Pat McGowan has granted 1,902 permits in the past six months, four times the 476 given out in the county in all of 2002.

Similar increases have occurred in Anoka, Dakota, Ramsey and Washington counties. But in the exurbs, Scott County jumped from 42 permits last year to 374 since May 28, and Carver County saw a 20-fold surge, from 11 last year to 227 now.

Throughout the Twin Cities region, the biggest rush of permit applications occurred right after the law took effect, said Tim Grant, a principal in the American Association of Certified Firearms Instructors Inc., Minnesota's only for-profit handgun training firm.

Many training classes were available in the metro area, but they were full for months. Now the demand for training has dropped off by about two-thirds, Grant said, and his firm plans to move some operations to Missouri, which recently enacted a liberalized handgun law, and Wisconsin, where efforts are underway to override Gov. Jim Doyle's veto of a similar law.

Grant estimated that up to 1,000 permits a month are still being issued in Minnesota, about half the average of the past six months.

Conrad deFiebre is at

>cdefiebre@startribune.com.

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greyhound
November 28, 2003, 09:12 AM
"We fought this thing for six years," said Dennis Delmont, executive director of the Minnesota Chiefs of Police Association. "We're tired out. We want to focus on other things."

I'm glad that they're going to let up, but if they really believe CCW is really guaranteed to cause "blood in the streets" and "shootouts over parking spaces", aren't they hypocrites for just giving up?

And as far as the vast number of permits being issued in the urban areas, 1/that's where the most crime is and 2/that's where its been a regular proctice to deny the permits in the past.

WvaBill
November 28, 2003, 09:17 AM
In addition to experiencing sticker shock at the new costs of getting armed, many outstate gun enthusiasts found training classes few and far between in their areas. Residents of southwestern Pipestone County, for example, only recently could get training as nearby as 30 miles away in Slayton, said Sheriff Dan Delaney.

What price progress?

Andrew Rothman
November 28, 2003, 09:56 AM
"People in other states say it takes three or four years for problems to crop up. Right now, there's too few people actually carrying a firearm here to make an assessment."
Oh, good. We don't have to worry about blood in the street or road rage shootouts unitl 2006-2007. :rolleyes:
"We're tired out. We want to focus on other things."
Or, I suppose, they xould just admit they were wrong.

sturmruger
November 28, 2003, 12:06 PM
I think there are a few people out there that have a big "I told you SO" coming. We all knew this was going to be a big non issue!!!

HankB
November 28, 2003, 12:18 PM
Six months already?

I suppose there are rivers of blood running down the streets, cars are being riddled with bullets and bodies are being stacked up like cordwood all over the state, right?

No?

Hmmm . . . that would mean that those who opposed the law LIED, wouldn't it? :rolleyes:

Sven
November 28, 2003, 02:03 PM
My step-dad is still waiting for his permit. I'm proud of him.

mwithers72
November 28, 2003, 02:29 PM
"People in other states say it takes three or four years for problems to crop up. Right now, there's too few people actually carrying a firearm here to make an assessment."


TN has had a CCH since 1994 or was it 1996 and no real problems to speak of.

My point is that it seams to me that there has been no jump in crime since TN started issuing permits. So why would they think that there will be a jump????:confused: Are they saying that the CCW's are going to start shooting up the place??:banghead: :cuss: :fire: what a morrrrrrron!!!!:fire: :fire: :cuss: :cuss:

mwithers72
November 28, 2003, 02:32 PM
:cuss: :cuss:

(it would not let me put in the last two :cuss: in the last message)


I feel better now:cool:

Waitone
November 28, 2003, 03:17 PM
Cooked numbers is another characteristic of states that convert to shall issue.

Dave R
November 28, 2003, 03:31 PM
"People in other states say it takes three or four years for problems to crop up. Right now, there's too few people actually carrying a firearm here to make an assessment."

I'll challenge that. There are quite a few states that have had "shall issue" CCW for over 4 years. What kinds of "problems" are they seeing?

Decrease in violent crime?

"Shall Issue" states have much lower violent crime rates than states that restrict the right of self-protection.

El Tejon
November 28, 2003, 04:01 PM
Indiana has had its LTCH statute for 70 years. Just what problems are here, Billy Boy?:rolleyes:

Isn't it true that if more guns equated to more crime, the impact would be immediate?:rolleyes:

Ten Dollar Man
November 28, 2003, 08:20 PM
"My board is tired of having the membership at each other's throats over the issue," he said.

That seems like an interesting admission to me. I wonder if it really means the board is tired of having the membership at its (the boards) throat over the issue.

Standing Wolf
November 28, 2003, 08:35 PM
The streets aren't running with blood. Minnesota's leftist extremists are bitterly disappointed.

greyhound
November 28, 2003, 09:21 PM
Minnesota's leftist extremists are bitterly disappointed.

Yep, I guess those "soft white guys"* weren't so dangerous after all!

*(what one sheriff called the new applicants for CCW)

Dain Bramage
November 29, 2003, 01:35 AM
I think it takes them three or four years to find one CCW holder that does something really nasty, so they can parade it in front of the cameras.

Detachment Charlie
November 29, 2003, 11:04 AM
Sorry it took me so long to chime in on this topic, but I'm in Floorida and had to swim across several rivers of blood and take my flats boat over two lakes of blood.:banghead:
<sarcasm off>
Oops, gotta go and sweep the deaders off my lanai.:neener:

Jim March
November 29, 2003, 03:12 PM
What goes on in shall-issue states is that yes, issue enough permits and eventually some moron will screw up with one. Four years sounds about right for an average.

First, most of said screwups are non-fatal to anybody.

But the big gotcha is that if you're the type who simply doesn't believe self defense even happens (and hardcore antis have a massive, mental-illness-level "block" about such things) then even one such screwup is "too much".

The reality is that the small number of mistakes is far overshadowed by the benefits of the legitimate self defense going on, most in the form of "chase-offs" that don't even get recorded 90% of the time.

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