Do you rely on cops?


January 21, 2003, 07:08 PM
I just saw the tape of the cop shooting the dog. Either that cop is the biggest wuss in the US or just a dumb-- with a badge. I wasn't going to watch it online but they showed it on TV. Everytime I see a trigger happy cop it makes me wonder what in the hell are they good for. That and questionable speeding tickets. Let's see.

Protection for myself and my family. Well, I pack more firepower than several cops combined and my response time is much better.

Investingation for personal matters. I can hire a private detective.

Speeding tickets. It's all an insurance scam and is a cultural icon unique to the US. The Germans don't need them.

I know there are few good cops out there but I have yet to find a single good reason for having them around. The police homicide investigators seem to have the only meaningful job. Then again I could also hire my own investigators and save the tax dollars.

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January 21, 2003, 07:14 PM
Just today I was wondering if I was going to have to shoot a dog.
I was driving out in the country and stopped at a house that appeared to have some farm equipment for sale. The very large and noisy dog followed me to the porch at a comfortable distance and then trapped me there. No one came to the door so I was wondering what I'd do if the dog came after me. It seems like a bad idea to shoot someone's dog in their own yard, but what other option would I have had?

January 21, 2003, 07:22 PM
The other day I watched a local cop shoot a deer that had been hit. He looked more scared than the deer. He was standing about 25 feet away when he shot it, and it took him awhile to do it. I guess he was afraid he'd get something on his clothes. Personally, I dont rely on them to be there when you will really need them. We live in a rural area and have two cops on duty per shift for about 70 square miles, it could be awhile before they get here. Then again, everyone I know carries a gun or has one handy, so it would probably be to the "bad guys" benifit if they got there fairly quick. :)

Oleg Volk
January 21, 2003, 07:26 PM
Cops are useful. They provide at least minimal protection for those who can't do it for themselves, and also act as one of the controls on crime. They aren't the whole solution but they are a part of it. Further, good cops have a real stake in weeding out the bad cops: anyone with a grudge against police is more likely to shoot at a uniform than a particular face.
I think that you will find your gripe lies with the laws which range from extortionist to outright psychopathic. The basics -- laws prohibiting fraud, murder, and the like -- are sufficient. The laws which state that no one shall wear purple pants on Saturdays on the pain of five years imprisonment are slightly excessive and, if enforced, provoce a justifiable feeling of dislike for the enforcers and for the authors of the law. The authors being obscure and distant, the enforcers are easiest to hate. For that reason, I would expect good cops to avoid enforcing laws which should not be enforced...until they can be repealed officially.
As for triggerhappy cops -- how often do we really see them, outside of the oh-so-unimpeachably accurate media? Most of the few who are end up taking the flak for their misbehavior. The few who get away with murder or similarly serious offenses are few...and, I suspect, as likely to be from the alphabet soup chekas than from your local PD.

January 21, 2003, 07:31 PM
The officer that shot the vacationing couple's dog seemed to show very bad judgement at the very least. Of course, we weren't there to see if there were other mitigating circumstances. However, I didn't see any great danger being ccreated by the dog.

If the officer made an error, he's going to have his hands full of problems (and as well he should). If so, he does his fellow officers no favor.

I think most other LEO's would have taken a different course of action.

(I'm wondering, perhaps the LEO's told the couple to keep the dog in the car and perhaps they let it out anyway. That would shed a different light on the matter).

I'm sure we'll find out soon enough.

January 21, 2003, 07:33 PM
I don't need them unless they just have to be there.

January 21, 2003, 07:36 PM
Just today I was wondering if I was going to have to shoot a dog.
I was driving out in the country and stopped at a house that appeared to have some farm equipment for sale. The very large and noisy dog followed me to the porch at a comfortable distance and then trapped me there. No one came to the door so I was wondering what I'd do if the dog came after me. It seems like a bad idea to shoot someone's dog in their own yard, but what other option would I have had?

And to think, when I was 12 and had a paper route I somehow defended myself from fullsize German Sheppards, Dobies, etc. with nothing but a squirt gun full of lemon juice.

Perhaps squirt guns with lemon juice should become standard issue for police officers.

January 21, 2003, 07:40 PM
Those JBTs, while engaged with the innocents, were asked repeatedly by said innocents to shut the down to the car so the dog would not get out. They ignored, then showed the world their firearms training. Idiot bastards. Still makes me mad thinking about it. That dog, no matter what kind, was no menace to the cops.

I hope somebody hangs for their mistakes.

BTW, I don't rely on them for anything. I'm armed and ready to defend my homeground and myself.


Jesse H
January 21, 2003, 07:43 PM
I'm seriously considering joining HDP after I get my BS in Information Systems Tech. I've decided too late into the game that I dislike computers.

Most people I know despise cops because all the experience they have with them are traffic tickets.

Speeding tickets. It's all an insurance scam and is a cultural icon unique to the US. The Germans don't need them.

But they do give out hefty tickets for tailgating. I think it'd be great if they applied that here.

January 21, 2003, 07:50 PM
If you want to see criminals tried, convicted, and penalized for their crimes, then you pretty much need the police. Private investigators generally do not have the legal authority to arrest people, and wouldn't risk the liability in the few instances in which they may have the authority. And the jail wouldn't book somebody in, a judge wouldn't issue an arrest warrant, and the DA wouldn't take the case without a police report, and on and on.

If the only thing that you are worried about is reacting to a lethal threat by using your own firearms against the person attacking you, then I guess you don't need them.

January 21, 2003, 08:02 PM
Leaving aside the old ''good cop - bad cop'' opinion thing .... they are needed as an ''umbrella'' enforcement agency .... to deter and solve crimes........ that's the optimist in me!

However, when it come to the ''protect'' part of ''To serve and protect'' ... sorry but, even with best of intentions, there will be few instances where cops can be at a scene in time to control harm to victims. At best, they arrive and ''mop up''

That is in itself to me, the de facto reason why anyone with any sense will carry their piece, against the (hopefully unlikely) occasion when they have to respond to a threat on their life.

In this respect .. Cops? Don't need em .... but in the broader sense then I guess they have to be part of the ''system'' .... as long that is they remember that they are people like the rest of us, and not agents of tyranny.

January 21, 2003, 08:04 PM
I try not to rely on the cops. :neener:

Thanks for the reasoned, rational response Oleg. :D

January 21, 2003, 08:20 PM
They should have a National Police Gratitude week once a year, where all the Police go on vacation for a week. ;)

January 21, 2003, 08:27 PM
Oleg- you have given it some thought, and I would agree with you. As a praticing lawyer-type, I have to say that police enforce collect those in potential violation, but it up to courts to decide, and legislatures to write the laws. IF you don't like the law a cop is enforcing, then don't take it out on him, he did not write it. Contact your legislatures to get it changed!!
My experence of them is by the nature of the job, they get to deal with a lot of very un-nice folks that general society would just as soon never even acknowledge exsist at all. If you deal with the worst aspects of humanity long enough, it would have to corrode at you in some way. One of the reasons no doubt that they have higher divorce rates than the norm in society.
I think if really sucks that law enforcement is such a lowly paid and looked down on profession, as they have one of the toughest jobs around, along with the fire departments and the child welfare workers.
Like others here, I must say we see news about the 1% that screws up, not the 99% who perform well.
We all have had a roust we were not happy with, and many folks let them evolve into unreasonable grudges with cops. Personally, if you aren't happy with what a cop does, then find an attourney and see if you have reasonable cause to take them to court.
I have represented folks doing that, but I have also represented cops from folks doing it to them. That is another short coming of the job, the city will often not take up for them, and sell them up the river.
The bottom line is they cast the nets and land the fish, but courts decide on guilt. And neither wrote the law in the first place. It is hard for police to not enforce a law, no matter how stupid, for fear of a favoritism charge from some corner, and yes, I have seen that happen also.
Just too much litigation in society, too many folks out for something for nothing....

January 21, 2003, 08:45 PM
Low paid? Depends where they work. I heard the average cop in NY city earns $50,000. My friend wants to become a Washington State Trooper because they get paid $60,000-$80,000. If that is low pay then I should get welfare checks.

That cop who shot the dog has shot two other dogs in the past. Hmmm, maybe he has a dog phobia or is a cat lover. Either way the dude needs to find another job where he isn't a danger to dog society.

January 21, 2003, 09:35 PM
I agree. Getting ready to hear the sorry ***'s side of the story on the news after this next set of commercials. Thanks for the info on the other two dogs, as I'll hate this guy even more now. :) The preview mentioned something like he yelled at the dog to stop. :rolleyes: Paaaleeeeeeezzzzzeeeee!! The victims yelled at the cops to shut the door, shut the door, etc., and of course, they ...

Sure cops are a necessary evil, they have a thankless job, etc., etc., but the ones like him or lots like we have in PDX really suck.
We got a trigger happy bunch here in Portland.

I'm sure all the good cops just cringe when they hear this BS.

January 21, 2003, 09:43 PM
Respect? Yes.
Rely? No.

January 21, 2003, 10:01 PM
I try not to rely on them except to keep the sheeple in line. MY personal well being is up to ME!

Don Gwinn
January 21, 2003, 10:46 PM
OK, so a cop in NY averages $50,000 per year. What does it cost to live in New York? On Boston Public the other night, the noble, low-paid teacher told the rich lady who wanted to date him "I'll barely make $40,000 this year." I thought that was wild for a moment--that's more than my principal made last year, and they were trying hard to show how poor he was--but in Boston, it's probably about right.
Well, I made $26,000 my second year as a teacher. This goof supposedly makes $40,000. So $50,000 in the same place would be equivalent to about $32,500 here. I wonder what it would be in New York?

Are you the same Amish who posted on TFL asking which item from the following list he should wear to traffic court to contest a ticket that had been issued for the speed he'd been traveling? If so, I think your bias is showing.

1) My Amish outfit.
2) A clown suit.
3) Sunglass with a blind person's walking stick.
4) A cop outfit.
5) A prisoner outfit with chains.
6) A "Guns don't kill people, I do" shirt.
7) A "I Love my AK47" shirt.
8) A "Speeding Tickets are a Legalized form of Extortion" shirt.
9) A KKK outfit with hood on.
10) A "I need a beer" shirt.
11) My "Need for Speed" shirt.
12) Van Halens' "I can't drive 55" shirt.

January 21, 2003, 10:55 PM
I've been thinking about this cop/dog here is my take on it. He was sent as back up on a felony stop. If he let a dog distract him just as BG shoots another officer...what defense does he have? If he tries to grab dog an gets bitten...tooth through knuckle of gun hand...what happens to his career? Its just a DOG. I like dogs too, but its not a human...another dog will show up.

January 21, 2003, 11:12 PM
According to a recent poll on CNN, NY City is the 11th most expensive city to live in worldwide.

I can't find any information that matches the Washington State Trooper figures but I did find the following link;

January 21, 2003, 11:30 PM
I've read the repiles and noted the comments. What occured is truly a tragic situation.

I saw the video. It wasnt that great on quality, and to be honest I think it leaves alot to interpretation.

So lets look at a few things. The cops were told some facts that were not facts, but thats is all that they had to go on. Using those "facts" they did a felony stop, and from what I've seen they pretty much did it by the book.

Many people ask why they didnt just walk up and close the door to keep the dog from getting out. First of all, you dont just walk up to a car, you "clear" it. Cops can and have been killed by perps layin on the floor or on the seat holding a gun and just waiting for a cop to walk up.

Secondly, when you control a situation you dont let the accused tell you what to do. You take control of the sitation and you do what you think must be done to maintain control.

How many here would let a dog bite them if they had a shotgun ?

I dare say most of us here that are gun buffs would balk at the idea of getting bit while holding a gun. Its been brought up that the cop that shot the dog had shot two others in his career of several years. So what ? What bearing does it have ? I know or several situations in my hometown that resulted in cops shooting dogs. No one likes to do it but sometimes it must be done.

Many here might say that the dog was not aggressive. Fact of the matter is, you clear a car, a dog runs at you, how much time are you going to take to decide if its jumping on you to lick your face or its jumping on you to tear your throat out ?

Many people jump to conclusions without thinking about the whole scenario. Many people automatically assume that the cop is at fault because he shot the "family" dog.

How many people on this forum have a dog that would protect his family ? It is unfortunate and tragic to have to kill a dog just for being a dog.

Another thing. We have one tragic and unfortunate situation where the cops were given bogus infromation by a dispatcher and they acted on it, and now they are ALL bad ? Some of you people here are using the same logic displayed by the antigunners that assume all gunowners are bad because someone took a gun and murdered somebody. Dont fall into the same trap of choosing to be ignorant. I really think that most of the people that inhabit this board are better than that. Lets take the High Road and think before we speak.

January 21, 2003, 11:51 PM
Do you rely on cops?

What, is that a joke?

You're new here, ain't ya? :p

Seriously though, I think cops serve a good purpose: they act as a general deterrent to crime.

Plus, I think there are some situations that "civilians" can't and perhaps shouldn't handle.

Of course you are aware that congress has ruled, and the US Supreme Court has ruled MULTIPLE TIMES that the police have no obligation to protect individuals, right?

January 22, 2003, 12:04 AM
I think Police Appreciation Vacation Week is the best idea I've seen in a long time.

And I think that anybody who has a hard on to rag on cops should replace them for that week. Let them get sucker punched by stinking drunks. Let them gag in puke and feces clogged hallways while trying to keep stoned and vomit covered morons from killing each others children. AND TREAT THEM WITH RESPECT while doing it. Remember, we are all equal and you cannot hurt anyones precious feelings even if they did just gak half digested nachos all over you.

Hell, you might even get to save a life or two and feel good about yourself. Well, until you give some soccer mom or corporate **** a ticket for going 17mph over the limit in a school zone and they ream you a new one as if you're the last remaining nazi on earth.

Sure, there are a few cops that are not really cut out for the job of babysitting our society. And there are definitely a few with Napoleon complexes (I worked with a few way back when...). By and large, however, most law enforcement professionals are as much heros in the Undeclared War on Crime as our military folks are in the declared actions.

Then again, having worn the blue, I might be a little bit biased...:scrutiny: And yes, even though I am an EX leo, I HATE getting pulled over! Damned cops anyway - go bust a criminal :D

But to answer the original question, from an ex-leo point of view, I guard my own doors. If I fail I hope the folks in blue can catch the rat-bas**rd that got the jump on me.

January 22, 2003, 12:06 AM
I found a stolen bike in my backyard two weeks ago. So...........I called the cops.

January 22, 2003, 12:06 AM
I think Police Appreciation Vacation Week is the best idea I've seen in a long time.

And I think that anybody who has a hard on to rag on cops should replace them for that week. Let them get sucker punched by stinking drunks. Let them gag in puke and feces clogged hallways while trying to keep stoned and vomit covered morons from killing each others children. AND TREAT THEM WITH RESPECT while doing it. Remember, we are all equal and you cannot hurt anyones precious feelings even if they did just gak half digested nachos all over you.

Ditto 180%

And everything else you said.

January 22, 2003, 12:09 AM
In a city where crowds of strangers are the norm, a uniformed authority can do things no private citizen can do efficiently.

But relying on LEO or anybody for that matter is silly.

The anti's will have a harder time subverting our civil rights if more people take this to heart: public safety is the responsibility of the average citizen. Police just gets paid to share this responsibility.

Self reliance. Personal responsibility.

January 22, 2003, 12:12 AM
Do you rely on cops?

No, but I bet Krispy Kreme and Dunkin' Donuts do!



Sorry guys! Couldn't resist!!!

January 22, 2003, 01:08 AM
The cops I know don't eat doughnuts...they eat bagels...but this is southern California.

January 22, 2003, 01:22 AM
Did anybody hear the dog barking or snarling? I sure didn't. It was just playing. If it wanted to attack it would have lunged forward or jumped.

There is more than one way to scare off a dog: loud noise, hit it with a stick, water, pepper spray, etc.

That cop was nothing but an *** with poor decision making skills. If that is the way he controls a situation when there are four officers on the scene and his buddy next to him has a AR15, I would hate to have him around me.

January 22, 2003, 01:52 AM
Yes, on the news tonight, he was interviewed and said "he felt threatened," yelled for the dog to "stop." ***???

Call a Wahhhbulance Pal. He got no sympathy from me. I revel in the fact that the guy is a total moron.

All I saw on the tape was a happy, tail wagging, dagget that looked as threatening as my cat, Fluffy.


It's scary that people like that guy are cops. I'd hate like hell to see that guy in a war situation. Feel sorry for his fellows.

January 22, 2003, 06:36 AM
the cleveland ohio police that I have experience with,get my award for being the most professional.they deal with alot of crime,put their life on the line each day,and treat you with respect.if you are pulled over for speeding and receive a ticket,you get the please drive safely goodbye instead of have a good day lol.
get pulled over in the suburbs,and you will most likely have 3 cars around while they search your vehicle,handcuff you,shoot your dog and let you go.
I've found if your honest and treat the police respectfully,they will do the same,in cleveland ohio that is.
kudos to the cleveland cops.

January 22, 2003, 07:16 AM
Rely on the police? no
Respect the police? yes !
There are stupid cops just like there are stupid civilians. Where I live the cops don't get paid much and I would have tried to become one if I hadn't been as concerned about my bank account as I was.
Even if I don't rely on the cops for my safety my Mother who lives alone in Florida has to so for all the people who have to rely in them for their safety I support the cops.

January 22, 2003, 07:31 AM
>>Speeding tickets. It's all an insurance scam and is a cultural icon unique to the US. The Germans don't need them. <<

Have never seen the yearly 150+ car pile up on the Autobahn, eh?

January 22, 2003, 09:25 AM
Rely on them? Out where I live they are a rare sight.
Respect them? Less and less I'm afraid.

I keep hearing and reading how dangerous, unpleasant and tough the job is. No argument.

The police often say "they must treat everyone as they are a threat until they are proven otherwise." I understand the sentiment.

But the police should understand that their tolerance for bad behavior by their own has a similar impact. They shouldn't be surprised if the citizenry regards them as badge heavy, authoritarians with itchy trigger fingers until THEY prove otherwise.

January 22, 2003, 10:12 AM
I have relied on them once when my mother got a call from a very good con-man telling her that that her nephew was in the hospital and needed $200. He was kind of like one of those fraudulent "psychic's" and made her believe he was really calling on behalf of her nephew. My Mom was waiting for this guy to come by for the money.

I happened by and she told me the story and I got suspicious and had my Mom call her nephew who happened to be at work (not in the hospital) and then she called 911. The guy came about 15 minutes later and I told my Mom not to answer the door. The cops hadn't shown yet. Meanwhile I was waiting inside with a .357 if he decided to break in. He didn't.

About 10 minutes later, the crook calls back and asks why my Mom didn't come to the door. She made up some excuse that she was in the back of the house and didn't hear the doorbell. She then asked him a couple more questions about her nephew and the the guy answered wrong so she knew for sure he was bogus. She told the guy to come over and get the $200. In the meantime, she called 911 again and told them to get over there now.

The crook came again. She didn't answer the door again. The cops still hadn't shown up ( over 1/2 hour since 911 was called).

However, shortly thereafter, the cops showed up (a half hour later) and were able to track this guy down and arrested him for attempted theft by deceipt. The only reason they were able to find him is that he had made several other calls to elderly women in the same area and they lucked out finding him in the area die to the description people gave of his car. Had they been responsive to 911, he would have been nailed much sooner.

They have their place and I'm glad they were there. However, I sure wouldn't trust my life to them in a pinch. Had this guy decided to come on in to her house anyway, the cops would have been utterly useless.

So, the cops had value here because they eventually got the bad guy off the streets and I didn't have to shoot him. They barely made it on time. This happened in a large city in California. If it were in the country somewhere, they would have never gotten there in time.

Carlos Cabeza
January 22, 2003, 10:23 AM
I don't like to trust my safety to someone else if I can help it myself so NO. The only time I have ever needed a LEO they were late getting there, or I was not paying attention how fast I was going (not needed:D ). I think I would have arrested the dog for resisting arrest and interfering with official police business.......:scrutiny: I WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME THING THE OFFICER DID !!!! Somebody said "its only a dog" true. I did feel like they were a bit aggressive to "make the stop". Almost like they were bored and were looking for something to do that night. It must really be hard to train so intensively for "what if" situations and hardly ever get to use it.............

January 22, 2003, 11:43 AM
Rely NO! The last time I called it was TWO days before they showed up to get a report. If the bad guys had decided to come on up the driveway instead of turning around and leaving (taking out my front gate as they departed) I'm afraid someone would have died that day. Now I carry even around the property as I feed the animals and cut the firewood. You just never know when a BG will show up. And two days response time ain't gonna cut it!

January 22, 2003, 11:55 AM
"Speeding tickets. It's all an insurance scam and is a cultural icon unique to the US. The Germans don't need them."

I will quote one of my favorite senior officers, Colonel Sherman T. Potter, commander, 4077th MASH:


Having lived in Germany I can assure you that they DO have and issue speeding tickets. Just because much of the autobahn has no speed limit does not mean there are NO speed limits anywhere.

January 22, 2003, 12:19 PM
Have never seen the yearly 150+ car pile up on the Autobahn, eh?

Don't they pile up that many in Kali about once a month?

Germany still has safer roads than the US, statistically.

They do issue speeding tickets and speed limits are set around 80 MPH around many urban areas.

They also issue tickets for failure to yield to faster traffic (rechtsfahren), which I highly support.

Unfortunately, the authoritarian streak Germans (other examples: radio taxes, nazi era books & symbols banned, etc.) seem afflicted with manifests itself in tickets for obscene or inflammatory gestures (even making the "crazy" sign). Around $500/violation last I heard, though they base fines on your income. :rolleyes:

Germany has a unrestricted autobahn movement comparable to the NRA in preserving what is believed to be an essential freedom.

If only we could combine the two. :D

January 22, 2003, 12:23 PM
I found a stolen bike in my backyard two weeks ago. So...........I called the cops.

Heh - if I did that in my neighborhood, the cops, if they bothered to show up, would probably be there to arrest me...

January 22, 2003, 12:26 PM
When I read stories like this "Quick-Draw McGraw" cop, it erodes my faith in LEO's...

But then I go spend some time w/ the LEO's (mostly sheriff's deputies in my area) & get to talk w/ competent, caring, professional people who do their best to keep their community safe. LEO's are people too--both good & bad. And the good ones are as eager to get rid of the bad ones as we are.

One thing I support is making all law-enforcement organizations after the sheriff's model (head is elected by popular vote) than by the police model (chief appointed by city officials). This promotes direct accoutability and eliminates a lot of the bureaucracy that lets the bad cops stay. Compare how many of the "bad cop" stories come from sheriff's departments as compared to police departments.

Rely: I'm responsible for myself & my loved ones, so it depends on who gets the BG first...:evil:

January 22, 2003, 01:34 PM
My general take - police officers are mostly straight up folks trying to do the job they are instructed to do. As with teachers, 'the job they are instructed to do' deserves closer inspection and control by the public who pays the bills. For shortcomings there, we (the public who pay the bills) have only ourselves to fault.

But let us make a distinction between investigating crime and preventing crime. As the TV says (lawn order; nineeightcentral): '...the police who investigate crimes...'

If a law has been broken, a crime committed, then the law breaker should be found out and brought to justice. That is investigation. I don't much trust the police to investigate crimes; they are all too often busy with other things.

But as to prevention of future crimes, I aint so sure that is the legitimate purvue of the police. It anticipates a crime; for success it requires a mindset of presumed guilt. I dont much trust the police to prevent crimes; it is my job, not theirs, to prevent crimes against my person and property.

That is why I go about armed.

January 22, 2003, 01:53 PM
Do you rely on cops?

No i can't.
It takes 45 minutes for the cops to get to my house.:banghead:

2nd Amendment
January 22, 2003, 03:15 PM
Rely? No. Even if I had a dependent nature it simply takes too long for them to get around this area. Just out of the city limits and on the wrong side of the county.

Respect them? Once upon a time a great deal. Today...individuals yes, the profession, very little.

January 22, 2003, 09:28 PM
When I told a cop buddy of mine where I lived at some really complicated set up apartment community in one of the safest cities in the world, he told me to get a gun, because the place is so dang complicated it'll take them 10 minutes just to find my unit.

My roommate always leaves the door unlocked because he thinks it's paradise.

January 22, 2003, 09:45 PM
I resolved not to bother even calling them after I was told, "So what do you want me to do about it?" for the third time in about 14 months on totally different, unrelated calls, ranging from a fistfight in the parking lot of the apartments I managed, to my son being molested by an older boy (teenager). I admit I was less than charitable with that third officer, resulting in his threat to arrest me , but no, I have no warm fuzzies toward the PD:mad:

January 22, 2003, 11:18 PM
He was sent as back up on a felony stop. No, he wasn't. He decided to crash the party. As a matter of policy, THP does NOT request backup from local LE and did not do so in this instance. Intelligent policy, IMO.

When he arrived on-scene, there were already three THP officers conducting the unwarranted felony stop. He had no business there and did nothing but create havoc. He should be fired for endangering those on the scene if nothing else. His shotgun-handling be kind...suck. If I were a Cookeville LEO, I'd refuse to work with him because he couldn't be trusted to conduct himself in a safe and rational manner.

He should find another line of which does not involve wielding firearms and capping dogs as a hobby.

Directly on topic...

There is nothing that impugns otherwise good officers more than having to enforce useless malum prohibitum laws designed for the sole purpose of restricting our Rights, most of them having to do with enhancing revenue.

January 22, 2003, 11:41 PM
It still amazes me that one or even a few bad interactions with cops, makes people dislike all cops.
Talk about bias and preconception.
If I approached people with the mentality that some of you display towards cops, due to your preconceptions and bias, I would lose my job in a week.

I rely solely upon myself, it just so happens that I am a cop also.
I don't rely on other cops to keep me safe, relying on others for your safety is ridicilous. Too bad our Govt doesn't see it that way and limits our rights to self protection.

January 23, 2003, 01:39 AM
Just lurked on this till now. Figured I'd have to stick something in sooner or later.

But Delta, it's not just w/cops, it's with most of anything that leaves a bad taste in our mouths. Could be women (or men, depending on your persuassion), mechanics, or store clerks. Don't think that it's persuasive towards just cops, although I'd bet you have a pretty solid argument. Cops are pretty much up there regards those we'd like not to like, all told, solely because they attempt to be our "conscience," if nothing else.

I was a cop. Dropped it, although it was my fave job. PM for details.

Keeping within what this thread has become, I'd say I do respect the cop-thing for why I became one. I left for what I saw it was/could turn in to.

I respect every cop as I would any other person, & really, a bit more. I would hope that they are up to my expectations.

I detest wholeheartedly those "cops" who don't live up to "the higher good." Worse than criminals in that aspect as they have the public trust to do what they are there for.

I became a cop to "be there" when those who needed it most. A "fireman with a gun" maybe. Purely humanitarian reasonings. It became political & not for "us," but to further some "higher authority's" agenda. I bailed.

Delta. I like your reasonings to date, on-line & personal, but you have to understand that those who have been (perceived) jacked won't look favorably towards your profession. Human nature. Many "jacks" are easy & have zip to do with providing safety, natural order, or anything other than pure "collars."

The populace resents those, they don't realistic policing.

& back to the premise .... nope, I am soley responsible for the safety of me & mine.

Cops can help to pick up the pieces afterwards, maybe catch the bad guy/s.

They do pose as a front-ine deterent to criminal intent (& hat's off always), but to actually prevent anything actually happening right now? Nope.

That's up to you & me.

One of the most heartbreaking aspects in my life is that there actually exists a schism between us, the law-abiding, & the cops. There should be none, as we are natural allies, assuming that .....

Kahr carrier
January 23, 2003, 06:48 AM
Once and awhile.:)

January 23, 2003, 09:54 AM
I too have my preconceptions about cops, trust me they aren't that good either. ;)
I agree with what you wrote, we all have a preconception of many, if not all professions.
My comments definitely were not aimed at you.

My post was an attempt to get people to think and maybe reconsider their position.
I hope no one sustained any injuries by thinking. :neener:

January 23, 2003, 12:56 PM
I know, DE, but Yah!, my head does hurt. ;)

January 23, 2003, 01:11 PM
"Speeding tickets. It's all an insurance scam and is a cultural icon unique to the US. The Germans don't need them."

The fact of the matter is a helluva a lot of BGs with warrants on them speed, drive with lights out, and run red lights. Remember Tim McVeigh was originally stopped on a traffic violation? I used to be of the mindset that cops looking for people speeding was dead wrong until I posted the question on a LEO forum at It resulted in 100+ replies and some interesting perspective from the LEO side. I'll post a link to it when I get home and have access to that forum.


January 23, 2003, 06:58 PM
Here's that link:


January 24, 2003, 12:49 AM
Relly on cops. Heck no.

Can they be here in the time it takes me to get one of my guns.


Can they get to me by the time I stop and confront a criminal outside.


The last time I seen a police react to a shooting was about a year ago. In a apartment complex I lived near by, there was a gun shot from a area that had allot of yelling. A domestic violence situation. I timed the responce time for the cops. It was 70 minutes and then he knocked on the doors and looked around and then left. Unbelievable!

Cops are for the sheeple and to inforce MORE new laws to take our money.

I just saw a new sign today 85 bucks for driving without a seatbelt.

I wounder what the next new laws will be.

January 24, 2003, 11:05 AM
No way! The nearest donut shop is 4 miles away in the next town and if the cops aren't there they're writing speeding tickets on the 4 lane highway along the edge of town (50m.p.h. limit) to pay their salaries.The county sheriff and deputies are the only leo's we can depend on. Our wonderful state troopers are nothing more than a source of revenue for our brain dead antigun governor Bobby Daft er a Shaft no I mean Taft. Oh well I'll calm down after I take my meds.


January 24, 2003, 11:17 AM
Respect them? I only respect individuals. Putting on a uniform and a badge doesn't entitle one to true respect. And I certainly don't respect the cops in my area who used to run protection for drug runners, murdered a disabled veteran, witnessed someone breaking into a house and drove away because it was shift change, or raped women in their cruiser after pulling them over.

Rely on them? For taking reports on traffic accidents, sure. For protecting me or mine, no way.

January 24, 2003, 12:35 PM
Gotta say this:

Having once been one, I can say that "cops" generally want to do the right thing - usually. Some do, some don't. Many times they're not allowed to - there's a chain of command to dictate such. Not the line-guys' fault many times.

Training aspects versus budget get in the way.

All told, I'm in favor.

But, with conditions, & none of these conditions depend on them.

We've some local issues, like the "water-Nazis" who "patrol" (as if :rolleyes: ) our local county lakes = "Salmon Watchers" & their ilk. Nothing but JBT wannabes - & ripe "targets" too boot, as they have zero situational awareness. Watching the water lap at the shore has never been a decent enough preventative measure against an attack not coming from the waterline ......

Can't even tell you about my exit from The Cops - a few of "our own" were feloniously charged for "things."

One very close to me had her first "sexual experience" in the back seat of a GA Sheriff's car. Most would call it rape.

I know a couple cops first-hand & they're everything y'all'd want them to be - many others aren't.

I flip the coin based on the person, not the uniform.

No matter.

Relying on "the cops" is like relying on an English-speaker at Mac D - it's an iffy thing.

I'm not anti-cop, but I am most certainly pro-folks - here 'n now.

January 24, 2003, 07:19 PM
Labgrade ..... a pretty balanced assessment IMO . thx. I go along with that pretty well.

January 24, 2003, 08:33 PM
Rely on cops? For what?

Cops provide a valuable service to society. They help to deter crime and maintain public order. They used to be called "peace officers" for a reason. Now they are "law enforcement". It has a different connotation.

Cops are the intermediaries for most of society. They are (or at least try to be) the neutral party in civilian disputes and have the authority and force to end physical conflicts. They also put bad guys in jail when they can find them.

But despite the good that they do, I don't rely on them personally. I don't expect a cop to "protect" me. When the flag goes up, he won't be there, it's that simple. If I have a personal conflict with someone, I'll try to handle it as long as they remain rational. If they stop being rational, I call a cop so I have a report of the other guy's idiocy.

However, if I'm surrounded by an angry mob and a squad car rolls up, I would appreciate a ride. ;)

January 24, 2003, 09:55 PM
Not until I need one and then it's HELL YES!:uhoh:

January 25, 2003, 12:09 PM
Not to change the subject but how's the boy? Been praying and hope he's getting better.

Mike Irwin
January 25, 2003, 01:25 PM
Sure I do.

Someone has to keep all those donut shops safe for democracy...

January 25, 2003, 04:42 PM
I sure do rely on cops. I think they are needed in our society. They do alot of good. Besides who are you going to call to haul the bad guys dead a__ out of your house.

January 25, 2003, 05:23 PM
I have too many friends on the force to bash any LEO. That being said the fact is Cops solve crimes and seldom prevent them. I try to tell antis when the Cops show up you're already a victim.

January 25, 2003, 05:35 PM
No, I don't rely on the cops. Any time you are justified in using deadly force to defend yourself, you do not have time to call the cops. If you did, deadly force would not be justified! In this world, if you choose to defend yourself against violence, you should be fully prepared to act decisively and swiftly. If not, it is better to do nothing and hope for the best. The cops have a role in society and the balance of things, but sometimes we look at them as something they are not. Cops are supposed to prevent crimes, and investigate things that have already happened. They can't be, nor would I want them to be everywhere at once. They have a crappy job and deal with the dregs of society. But before we put them on a pedistal as noble defenders of the public, remember this: They volunteered and get paid pretty well. They can quit. They are not like the humble soldier thousands of miles from home, defending his country with his life for far less pay and appreciation. The soldier lives in a hole in the ground, endures the elements, is away from his loved ones for months on end, and can't quit. The cops go home every night and live under the same protection the military provides everyone. Too often I listen to the whines and moans of some cops about how tough it is out there. Bulls**t. You are more likely to get hit by a train than killed by a suspect as a cop. When a cop does get killed, it is more than likely because he or she got sloppy, lazy or just wasn't paying attention. They knew the job was dangerous when they took it. If they 'aint tough enough to handle it, then quit. For every one cop out there on the sharp end, there are 2 administrators, a dozen or so detectives, juvenile, and property crimes detectives as well as a bunch on injured light duty (softball injuries) as well as a bunch just hanging around, getting paid as sworn law enforcement officers. Some cops are in fact brutal, officious and have personal agendas. Others abuse power for financial or other reasons. Before y'all dismiss my comments as anti-cop, I should submit that I was a cop for 6 years, on the streets, and I did shoot a dog once. I quit because I found a better job. If any cop doesn't like or can't handle the job, quit whining and find something else to do.
As citizens, don't expect the cops to do what every man should be able to do for himself.

January 25, 2003, 07:59 PM
Pretty good set of comments there bunkie .... can't argue much with that at all.

January 26, 2003, 07:52 AM
When a cop does get killed, it is more than likely because he or she got sloppy, lazy or just wasn't paying attention.

In how many jobs do you get the death penalty for being sloppy lazy or not paying attention?

Baba Louie
January 26, 2003, 09:27 AM
Cops in the family since the 50's.

My take on 'em (FWIW)

As my dear old Daddy says about handguns, " I'd rather have 'em and not need 'em, than need 'em and not have 'em".

A very tough job. I've only experienced Professionals in my limited exposure here in LV and back in KC, MO.

I rely on them to follow up if need be (hope I never have the "need be").

And I never, ever, want to be, or plan to be, on the wrong side of a situation involving LE, thank you very much.

Again, to quote dear old dad, "Ride with the law, Baba Louie, not agin it"


January 26, 2003, 09:47 AM
I tend to have more respect for cops in larger cities. Small town cops are usually Nazi-types with nothing better to do than write tickets and harrass kids.

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