Full Auto Fire Rate


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PH/CIB
May 8, 2010, 02:06 AM
To me it does not make sense not to slow full auto fire down from 600-800+ rounds per minute down to 200-300 rounds per minute. Even at 3 rounds a second that would be only 180 rounds a minute.

I have read or seen somewhere that even an m14 in 308 regulated with the cyclic rate slowed down was actually controllable, so it could be done with both our 556 and 308.

A combat soldier carrying everything on his back would only be able to carry 200 to 400 rounds anyway, so why not slow down the rate of full auto fire?

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PTK
May 8, 2010, 02:17 AM
It requires adding parts, in the form of mechanical retarders, heavier springs, buffers, etc.

In short, to reduce complexity, most machineguns are allowed to run at their natural rate.

jmorris
May 8, 2010, 08:28 AM
Even at 3 rounds a second that would be only 180 rounds a minute.


Any one can shoot a semiauto at a faster rate than that. A .33 second split is slow.

aka108
May 8, 2010, 10:25 AM
Hard to imagine the weight of ammo required to feed a MG42 with a 1200 to 1500 rpm rate of fire.

John Parker
May 8, 2010, 10:55 AM
I shot a Danish MG3 once while in Iraq. The Danes warned me about the high cyclic rate, I was all "Yeah yeah."

I'm still shocked by how quickly that thing fired. Two normal-length bursts (for a 249 or 240) and that 50-rd belt was GONE. It's wicked amazing.

RyanM
May 8, 2010, 11:46 AM
A lot of people praise the full-sized Uzi for its "natural" low rate of fire, of around 450-500 shots per minute.

A combat soldier carrying everything on his back would only be able to carry 200 to 400 rounds anyway, so why not slow down the rate of full auto fire?

A better question might be "why give absolutely everyone select fire in the first place?"

PH/CIB
May 8, 2010, 01:49 PM
I had read an article once, I wish that I could find it again, that said they had tested a number of full automatic weapons of different calibers and each individual weapon system and caliber had a "sweet spot" somewhere between 400 to 600 rounds a minute or somewhere between 6 to 10 rounds a second where the rifle was the most controllable on full automatic and therefore also the most accurate on full automatic.

However I do not remember if the article addressed reliability altho one would think at a slower rate of fire with less heat build up and friction and wear that the rifle would be even more reliable. If anyone has any information on this please shed some light on the subject, until then I will continue my internet adventure to find more info. Thanks!

ACP230
May 11, 2010, 09:08 PM
I've shot a fair amount of FA weapons. I do best with those that run around 600 RPM.
The exception, so far, is a friend's PPSH. It runs much faster but shoots a lighter bullet so is still quite controllable.

shotgunjoel
May 11, 2010, 10:41 PM
Hard to imagine the weight of ammo required to feed a MG42 with a 1200 to 1500 rpm rate of fire.
That's why you get other people to carry the ammo. It is a crew served weapon.

Trebor
May 12, 2010, 12:45 AM
I've found the full-size UZI at about 600 RPM (give or take) to be very controllable in full-auto. I can very easily squirt out 2 or 3 shot bursts pretty much "on demand" and can usually (about 2 times out of 3) deliberately only shoot a single-shot even when set to "AUTO" if I want.

To me 600 RPM just seems right for that gun and I see no real advantage to making it slower.

JTW Jr.
May 12, 2010, 01:18 AM
With the UZI ( Vector ) I can pull singles , doubles or triples at will. Very controllable.

Riss
May 12, 2010, 07:20 AM
Yeah. but there is nothing like a MAC-10 spitting out 1250 per min. Runs out a 38 round mag in no time.

jmorris
May 12, 2010, 08:44 AM
Yeah. but there is nothing like a MAC-10 spitting out 1250 per min. Runs out a 38 round mag in no time.

Not all MACs are the same. The powder springs bolts were lighter than the others so they run faster.


http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/DSC01921.jpg

JTW Jr.
May 12, 2010, 08:46 AM
Convert the mac over to use 50 round Lancaster mags.....

Riss
May 12, 2010, 09:02 AM
I use longer 40 round mags and I hear that they need Thompson springs to run correctly. Standard GRease Gun springs have a hard time keeping up with the fast rate. The 1250+ BTW is with a new sliding buffer inside an AR spring tube extension. Slightly faster than the stock MAC.

JTW Jr.
May 12, 2010, 09:24 AM
I have not had any malfunctions due to the lancaster mag conversion , many of the guys at our local subgun matches have done the same or similar conversion , one on a 380 ( I can find out which mags he used ) , and that thing runs crazy fast. He usually finishes in the top 5 overall.

Jim K
May 12, 2010, 02:46 PM
When the M14 first came out, I fired one and found it uncontrollable in FA fire. Then later, I went up to Aberdeen to witness a demonstration to "prove" the rifle was controllable.

Out came two old sergeants, either of whom could have been the Redskins line (not a lineMAN, the LINE). About 6 feet in both directions, arms the size of my thighs, service stripes all down the sleeve. They picked up two M14's and fired them FA. Sure enough, with 600 pounds of Grade A beef holding the guns down, they were controllable.

Lesser folks, like me, never found a way to do it, and I doubt even 2-3 rounds a second would give a normal shooter time to recover and get the rifle back on the target.

Jim

RogersPrecision
May 12, 2010, 03:49 PM
My Powder Springs M10/9mm runs an average of 1350rpm, dependent on ammo and lube. I can run a rack of 12 plates with a 32rd magazine. 2-3rd bursts are the rule.
At this high cyclic rate, if proper techniques and an aftermarket stock are used, the high cyclic is actually an advantage as far as reducing burst dispersion.
2-3rds are gone before the gun moves much.

I've got a fair amount of trigger time with slower cyclic 9mm smg's such as the Uzi, S&W 76 and the MP5. My 3rd burst groups are smaller with my MAC.

I've also got a fair amount with the M14.
It is not uncontrollable on fullotta, but keeping most of the rounds on a human torso size target is limited to about 15-20yds. 3rd burst, look for 2 hits, with a foot or two of vertical dispersion.

CleverNickname
May 13, 2010, 08:31 PM
I used to have a Micro Uzi. With an open bolt it ran about 1200 rpm, with a closed bolt it ran about 1800 rpm. Fun to try to hold onto, but not much in the accuracy department, especially with the Uzi Pistol sights that weren't designed to be used as rifle sights.

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