Movie shotguns and the O/U sawed off


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DammitBoy
May 14, 2010, 03:31 PM
Over the years, I've always been enamoured of the various sawed off shotgun pistols you see in movies from Westerns to modern day action movies.

My favorite has always been a variation of a sawed off O/U shotgun pistol.

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/d/d0/IMG_1298.JPG/800px-IMG_1298.JPG

I've always wondered if there was any advantage to an O/U sawed off as compared to a SBS sawed off.

The movies almost always show a 12ga sawed off pistol, which I think would be very difficult to control. A 16ga or a 20ga seem much more reasonable and feasible.

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627PCFan
May 14, 2010, 04:54 PM
This thread just uspet my stomach.

Jon_Snow
May 14, 2010, 05:09 PM
I think I just died a little inside.

But, to answer your question, a O/U is thinner than a comparable SxS and thus easier to conceal. I don't know how effective it would be though since the top barrel is going to produce a LOT of torque. Personally, I don't think I'd want to shoot ANY pistol-shotgun larger than .410.

CoRoMo
May 14, 2010, 05:18 PM
What movies are you referring to?
Which movie was that O/U used in?

DammitBoy
May 14, 2010, 09:14 PM
The two I posted first are from the movie 'The Spirit', used by a bad guy played by Samuel L. Jackson.

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/d/dd/SpiritOctoGunsDouble.jpg/600px-SpiritOctoGunsDouble.jpg

http://lh6.ggpht.com/weirdposters/SEkHS3ndCbI/AAAAAAAAI8E/OOZ8-grI0wU/s400/hitman_1991_poster_01.jpg

Above is one used in a horrible Chuck Norris movie called 'Hitman'.

Arnold Schwarzenegger used one as John Kruger in 'Eraser'.

http://stevostoys.com/HOWDAH2.jpg

Sidney Poitier in 'Buck and the Preacher' (probably blackpowder or howdah pistols)

You can find more sawed off shotgun links at this page on the IMFDB site (http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/12_Gauge_Double_Barreled_Shotgun).

gunnie
May 14, 2010, 09:44 PM
gotta wonder at the velocities these would(n't) produce, and how effective the round would be on the most dangerous species. even at bad breath ranges. anyone got muzvel numbers available for AOW shotguns in the "derringer" versions?

gunnie

CoRoMo
May 14, 2010, 09:53 PM
Thanks DB, I've seen exactly one of the movies you listed, and i barely recall those SGs from Eraser.
...how effective the round would be on the most dangerous species.
They are not intended for big game hunting, dangerous game hunting, or any type of hunting. Unless that's not what you meant.

gunnie
May 14, 2010, 10:06 PM
if you feel big or dangerous game are the most dangerous species, i am jealous of your lifestyle.

gunnie

RyanM
May 14, 2010, 10:06 PM
gotta wonder at the velocities these would(n't) produce, and how effective the round would be on the most dangerous species. even at bad breath ranges. anyone got muzvel numbers available for AOW shotguns in the "derringer" versions?

My Serbu Super Shorty has an even shorter barrel, at 7.2" (I think people were having problems with burning their knuckle hair off with the 6.5" ones). Standard 2-3/4" 1 oz. slugs chrono at about 1120 to 1150 fps (compared to 1400-1450 from an 18" barrel). Other ammo only loses about 20% velocity as well. So basically, full power ammo goes at the same speed as reduced recoil ammo from a full size gun.

Spread with buckshot isn't that different from a full size gun, either, as long as you stick with decent quality ammo with a shot cup wad (a surprising number of buckshot loads only have a fiber base wad) and buffered pellets. Maybe 25% bigger, just on average. Some loads (Federal Flitecontrol) are almost indistinguishable, some (cheap-o Wolf, etc.) spread twice as much.

Shorty shotgnus are very underrated. Basically the only thing that makes them impractical is the 2 foot wide, 6 foot long fireball (not exaggerating at all, check out this youtube video at 2:05 if you don't believe me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb6SnaPPH-Q ), and the correspondingly deafening blast. Definitely an outdoors only, double hearing protection gun.

gunnie
May 14, 2010, 10:08 PM
very suprised at the minimal loss. would likely work well at those numbers!

gunnie

CoRoMo
May 14, 2010, 10:10 PM
if you feel big or dangerous game are the most dangerous species...
Well, speak clearly then. If you are referring to humans, this type weapon would be horribly effective.

gunnie
May 14, 2010, 10:11 PM
didn't mean to offend your delicate sensibilities...

gunnie

CoRoMo
May 14, 2010, 10:17 PM
What makes you think you could?

VA27
May 14, 2010, 10:34 PM
Don't forget the Jimmy Dean movie 'Big Bad John'. He played the sheriff and had a 'double' O/U! Those 4 barrels were pretty impressive from the front.

gunnie
May 14, 2010, 11:01 PM
..."What makes you think you could?"...

perhaps your defensive response after you realized that RyanM didn't have any problems understanding what i meant?

gunnie

Conqueror
May 14, 2010, 11:29 PM
The biggest problem with these O/U "pistols" is they would be really difficult to open. Those of you who have O/Us, try cocking the thing while holding only the pistol grip, and the barrels just ahead of the action. Most people don't realize how much extra leverage you get with a longer barrel.

tt600
May 15, 2010, 12:10 AM
seems this is what gangsters in England would use. Or any other place that handguns are banned. Take a cheap stoeger O/U , a hacksaw, and a belt sander and you are in business.

DammitBoy
May 15, 2010, 02:24 AM
How would you go about having one made legally?

natman
May 15, 2010, 03:08 AM
How would you go about having one made legally?
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html

Check with your state Department of Justice as well.

DammitBoy
May 15, 2010, 01:23 PM
Yeah, that really doesn't answer my question. The ATF site isn't very helpful.

Can I make it myself or does it have to be made by a manufacturer? Would it be considered an AOW or a short barrelled shotgun? I'm assuming this would involve a $200 tax stamp, is that right?

This would be altering an existing shotgun, which classification is that? It's not the same as buying a Serbu Shooty, because those were never long guns, right?

PTK
May 15, 2010, 02:09 PM
Recoil really isn't too bad, I have a SBS double barrel, side by side.

http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=106547&d=1254615885

You can make it yourself, it would be a SBS, not an AOW, it does indeed need to have a $200 stamp paid and received PRIOR to working on the gun.

It's easy. :)


http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=521287

DammitBoy
May 16, 2010, 01:32 AM
So, I buy the gun to be modified. I apply for the tax stamp through any FFL or does it have to be a Title II FFL, or do I apply directly to the ATF?

Thanks for your help!

PTK
May 16, 2010, 02:22 AM
You apply for the stamp yourself via a Form 1 application to make and register a firearm, available from www.titleii.com (electronic version, and good instructions) or www.atf.gov (paper version)

WoofersInc
May 16, 2010, 03:29 AM
You can buy one from a dealer already made, or make one yourself on a form 1.

Buying from the dealer means doing all the paperwork and waiting to get it back before you pick up the gun.

If making one, you send in the paperwork first and then wait till it comes back. You can then shorten the barrels down.

So, I buy the gun to be modified. I apply for the tax stamp through any FFL or does it have to be a Title II FFL, or do I apply directly to the ATF?

If you already have the gun you want to modify, you apply straight to ATF on a form 1 and then do the mods once you are approved and have the paperwork back from ATF.

MagnumDweeb
May 17, 2010, 12:50 PM
I've been wondering about the O/U. Folks have said that the O/U are just as strong as most SxS. I want to do the paperwork sometime after I get admitted to the state bar and I've yet to decide which route to go. There are plenty of $300 and less SxS but O/U are harder to find at inexpensive prices.

blackwalnut
May 18, 2010, 01:56 AM
Save your money! And if you must spend it how about a Taurus Judge in .410? On the Outdoor Channel or Sportsman Channel a review was done and Taurus Judge patterned and produced what look like effective shot patterns. Its probably alot easier to purchase and doesnt require you to jump through hoops with ATF paperwork. The judge holds 5 or 6 rounds too. Keep life simple.

PTK
May 18, 2010, 02:08 AM
A Taurus Judge is more expensive than buying a used shotgun and paying the $200 tax to shorten it. ;)

DammitBoy
May 18, 2010, 04:20 AM
Alsoplustoo - this is about the cool factor, and the Taurus Judge is not cool.

A sawed off O/U - now that's cool.

Arkady
May 23, 2010, 01:25 AM
I've got a side-by-side sitting in the closet that I bought for the purpose of making an SBS.

The more I think about it, I've been considering using an O/U, instead. Any reason not to?

DammitBoy
May 23, 2010, 02:51 AM
It will upset a couple of these guys stomachs...

janobles14
May 23, 2010, 07:21 PM
lol i want one. maybe if one could luck up and find an O/U that has the barrel bent somehow or messed up? i just dont know if i could lop off even a bargain O/U...but dang i want one now.

DammitBoy
May 24, 2010, 09:06 PM
That's my idea - I'm always on the look out for an O/U with a bent, dented, or bulged barrel near the end and a scuffed up stock.

I really wouldn't want to spend more than $200 for the project gun and I can't see cutting up a perfectly good O/U just to make a playpretty.

dcloudy777@aol.com
May 25, 2010, 11:40 PM
No... it wouldn't be cool at all... :rolleyes:

Oh wait...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/dcloudy777/004.jpg

It is really cool... fits in the saddlebag of the motorcycle, recoil is fairly manageable with most ammo, and it's hoot at the range. This is one of my favorite things I built when I was in the NFA business.

DanO

DammitBoy
May 26, 2010, 12:09 AM
DanO - could you post a better picture of your gun?

What brand shotgun is that and what did you invest in the build?

dcloudy777@aol.com
May 26, 2010, 12:28 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/dcloudy777/003-1.jpg

this one was taken with an AR15 mag for scale
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/dcloudy777/006.jpg

Sorry, I'm not much of a photographer. The "donor gun" was a Stoeger Condor, pretty beat up and not worth much by the time I got it.

DanO

leadcounsel
May 26, 2010, 12:32 AM
I've always loved the sawn of SxS and O/U.

You may be able to find one that is mechanically sound but with rusted/damaged end of the barrel that you intend on removing anyway... at a good price.

Pics of my fav SxS...

DammitBoy
May 26, 2010, 01:07 AM
Thanks DanO! Those pics are much better.

What is the barrel length and overall length of your O/U pistol?

dcloudy777@aol.com
May 26, 2010, 01:21 AM
I don't have a tape measure handy, but I'd say the barrels are about 9" and the OAL is around 17". I'm fortunate to have a good friend that's a genius with wood stock work to cut down the forearm and butt, he did a great job. The toughest part was the new piece between the barrels, that had to be fabricated, and it took a little trial and error. I was an SOT when I did this, so I didn't have to pay for a stamp, and I took advantage of quite a bit of free labor, so I probably don't have $200 in this whole gun. If I wanted to do another one, by by the time I bought the base gun, SBS stamp, and paid to get the work done it would probably be closer to $600-800.

DanO

Wadero
May 26, 2010, 07:47 AM
The only question I have is, how did it take so long for someone to post a picture of The Road Warrior?

DammitBoy
May 26, 2010, 01:21 PM
Because the Road Warriors sawed off is a side by side, not an O/U?

Although, if anybody wants to post pics of their SxS sawed offs pistols, I'd love to see them too.

desidog
June 7, 2010, 03:54 PM
I'd do a SxS if it had external hammers...but i've never run into a remotely affordable O/U with external hammers, and hammers wouldn't be great for concealed carry either.

I don't know how effective it would be though since the top barrel is going to produce a LOT of torque.
Not much more than the off-axis torque created by a SxS, but might kick up a bit more.

dcloudy777@aol.com, how does that raised-rib work out on yours? Initially I thought, "No, grind that sucker down!" but it's kind of growing on me...

dcloudy777@aol.com
June 7, 2010, 10:16 PM
I thought about removing it, but I played around with photoshop and decided I liked the look better with the rib. It certainly doesn't serve any practical purpose, it's not like I'm shooting skeet with it... yet anyway. :D


DanO

DammitBoy
June 7, 2010, 11:41 PM
The rib looks great on your gun dcloudy!

Every gunshow I go to now, I'm looking for a beater O/U...

GLOOB
June 7, 2010, 11:52 PM
My stomach was turning all day. Then I opened this thread, and I feel much better!
recoil is fairly manageable with most ammo,
So do you practice with your off hand, too? :)

DammitBoy
September 25, 2011, 01:52 PM
So I finally bit the bullet and bought an O/U for this project. I found a stoeger/condor at a gunshow for $300 and decided I'd have a hard time finding a better project gun for less.

Now I just have to decide how short, who will do the work, and if I want to get a tax stamp for it...

DammitBoy
September 25, 2011, 01:56 PM
I have no idea why that first pic is broken, the link still works?

http://www.imfdb.org/w/images/thumb/d/d0/IMG_1298.JPG/800px-IMG_1298.JPG

Mine won't look like this, but hopefully it will look as cool as DanO's...

Ash_J_Williams
September 25, 2011, 03:09 PM
I could love a nice 12ga SxS. The Evil Dead films and Road Warrior have told me it'd be a good choice.

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/boom-stick.jpg

As far as an OU in films/media, how about an Olympia in Call of the Dead (not a big COD fan, just like George Romero)?

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/5062/capture21js.jpg

FIVETWOSEVEN
September 25, 2011, 03:39 PM
As far as an OU in films/media, how about an Olympia in Call of the Dead (not a big COD fan, just like George Romero)?

That shotgun was a full length gun and doesn't look like its modeled after a real one at that, it was just a name they came up for their O/U shotgun.

zoom6zoom
September 25, 2011, 03:57 PM
and if I want to get a tax stamp for it...
Well, if you want to shorten it, you don't have a lot of choice on that one. Not to do it legally, anyway.

Ash_J_Williams
September 25, 2011, 06:56 PM
That shotgun was a full length gun and doesn't look like its modeled after a real one at that, it was just a name they came up for their O/U shotgun.

I assumed Olympia was a name for a Browning or similar, as they can't always get the brand's approval, and this was an expansion pack so they probably didn't spend as much as a full game for rights, etc. That said, there's also a full-size in-game, and comparing the two, the one in the photo is definitely intended to be a sawed-off. It says "sawed-off" when you pick it up.

Tse Gee La
September 25, 2011, 07:22 PM
Several years ago there was an article in American Handgunner about making a SBS double barrel shotgun. The author wanted a Mad Max style gun. After shooting full house loads he had a grip made that was a more traditional style pistol grip. He said it made it a little more manageable. He also wrote about using some type of short 12 gauge rounds made by Aguilla at the time for a small youth shotgun they had. It looked like the shotgun rounds were about 1.5" in length. His point was that the smaller rounds made it more fun to shoot.

DammitBoy
September 26, 2011, 08:21 AM
Well, if you want to shorten it, you don't have a lot of choice on that one. Not to do it legally, anyway.

I can shorten a shotgun to a 19" barrel and an overall length of 27" and still not need a tax stamp. That's legal. I might decide to go shorter - which would require a tax stamp.

CoRoMo
September 26, 2011, 12:25 PM
I can shorten a shotgun to a 19" barrel and an overall length of 27"...
I don't think that type of shotgun would apply to this thread or this NFA sub-forum though.

scramasax
September 26, 2011, 01:10 PM
I've been thinking about a short O/U for some time. There used to be a dealer at Knob Creek that had a stock pile of Berreta O/U actions that were sold by them in the 80s for cheap. He'd make several a year for sale. The closest i've come so far is a Legacy sports HD O/U with factory 18 bbls. My only concern with a sbs is mechanical or inercia(sp) reset for the 2nd shot. Also btb The Preacher guns were 28g the size I'm considering to use.

Cheers,

ts

DammitBoy
September 27, 2011, 08:16 PM
I don't think that type of shotgun would apply to this thread or this NFA sub-forum though.

My plan is to make it a super shorty which would require the stamp, hence this thread and my posts in it.

Just haven't made the commitment yet, hence my post about "deciding" which way to go.... :scrutiny:

DammitBoy
October 1, 2011, 10:00 PM
No... it wouldn't be cool at all... :rolleyes:

Oh wait...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/dcloudy777/004.jpg

It is really cool... fits in the saddlebag of the motorcycle, recoil is fairly manageable with most ammo, and it's hoot at the range. This is one of my favorite things I built when I was in the NFA business.

DanO

DanO - could you post some dimensions on the filler piece you had to fab to hold the barrels together?

saltydog452
October 1, 2011, 11:25 PM
There was, I think, Rod Cameron as Shotgun Slade. Shotgun Slade prefered a O/U with a short barrel. The opening images showed two loud booms and at the same time portrayed two patterns. One was kinda open the other wasn't.

Again, Nick Adams, as Johnny Yuma, The Rebel. Early 60s. John had a cut down S/S hidden in his blanket bed roll. Bad guys having evil on their minds visiting the camp site had a rude, but short term awaking.

Gordon Nettleton, DFW resident, CPA, all around Good Guy, and Korean Vet, had a short barrel Browning Superposed O/U. The previous owner had tried his hand at reloding. That didn't work out to well and Gordon bought the bulged barrel set and trimmed it to a 'handier', but legal size.

I think that Browning went on a couple of Javalina hunts.

salty

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