Kroger chain bans customers from carrying


PDA






gopguy
May 17, 2010, 12:01 PM
Hi Gang, over on the General section I posted a story of how a member of my gun club was insulted by the local Kroger store after it was noted he was legally carrying a firearm. The thread really took off. Keep in mind the store was not posted at the time of the incident and open carry is legal in Ohio, so the fact the gun was seen is not an issue. This is what Andy wrote on our Club website about the incident.

http://ccfsa.20.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=742&sid=76b488be98c8803a78d1820917b2d67a

Was shopping Sunday April 18 with my wife and daughter at Krogers in Wilmington. I have my CCW and always pay attention to the door and around the door and i never have seen a no gun sign. We were walking down the aisle when I noticed two employees at both ends and one was a manger. I pointed them out to my wife. She always says I'm to paranoid about being followed. They followed us for about another two aisles. When we are in the middle of one aisle with no one else in the aisle with us. The mangers approaches me and ask if that was a gun that i was carrying. I told him it was and said I was not allowed to carry in Krogers. At this point I notice they have the aisle blocked off at the ends so no one else can enter it. I told him the store is not posted and by law it needs to be posted if they don't want firearms in there store. He proceeded to tell me it there policy and they are not allowed in the store. I told him i did not know that because it's no posted any where. He asked me to leave so i told that is not a problem and left. I went out to the car and put the pistol in the lock box and went back inside . The mangers were at the door and said we told you to leave. I said i did and showed them my empty holster. They proceed to follow us the rest of the shopping trip.

I nor my wife liked to be treated like common thugs, criminals or what you want to call it.

Please keep in mind before judging this fellow for going back in to shop, this part of Ohio has been hit hard economically, this county is where DHL was located and now our unemployment level is at 19+%. 60 Minutes has done stories, Rachel Ray and Jay Leno have been here to try to help.

Three years ago our unemployment was 2% and many now standing in the line at the Sugartree ministries food pantry used to be the donors to the pantry. Kroger issues rebate checks for use of their credit cards and in tight times that would motivate many to swallow their pride and go back in even after such an insult.:(

Andy, the fellow this happened to, wrote Kroger to complain and got this in response.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2hhdr9c.jpg

Our club members have begun a letter writing campaign to Kroger to try to reverse the policy but frankly that is not going to be enough. We need your help.



What needs to be done is to get Kroger to reverse their new policy. This effects all of us as Kroger owns many grocery stores under many names across the United States. Since their Corporate HQ is in Cincinnati it is possible they may make this their national policy. So it would behoove us all to write and or call them to make our displeasure with this anti gun attitude known to them, so we can try to head this off from becoming national policy in all their stores and hopefully reverse this idiocy in the area where it began in SW Ohio.

I hope we can count on your participation is turning the tide back.

Contact info


Kroger's Wilmington
1230 Rombach Avenue
Wilmington, OH 45177-1943
(937) 655-5720


Call Center
(Open Mon. - Fri. 8 a.m. - 9 p.m. EST)

1-866-221-4141

Mail
The Kroger Co.
Customer Relations
1014 Vine Street
Cincinnati, Ohio 45202-1100

Corporate Switchboard
(513) 762-4000


Corporate Affairs/Media Relations
Corporate Affairs Department
The Kroger Co.
1014 Vine Street
Cincinnati, OH 45202-1100


Executive Offices
(please direct correspondence to the attention of a department or individual)

David B. Dillon CEO
1014 Vine Street
Cincinnati, Ohio 45202-1100
(513) 762-4000
http://www.kroger.com

If you enjoyed reading about "Kroger chain bans customers from carrying" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Rawb77
May 17, 2010, 12:16 PM
I really don't have a problem if they don't allow Open Carry or even Concealed Carry. Easy enough I just won't shop there. Besides my local HEB is much better. My main point of dislike is how Kroger went about enforcing their rules. They have rules, but to enforce their rules they need to follow the law, meaning they need to have the adequate and precise/proper information on the store doors as per the specific state's requirements.

I have no problem not doing business with a store who posts stickers saying No CCW (in texas its the 30.06 law) but the managers of the store handled the situation poorly in my opinion. You can't tell me they haven't seen anyone else in their store open carrying? Do they follow the same protocol with all open carriers? You'd think after the second or third time they would have thought "Hmm if we'd just put the damn stickers in the window...."

Gouranga
May 17, 2010, 12:29 PM
Yeah, this was VERY poorly handled. From a gun owner perspective, I have no desire to go into a business that posts at all. Saves me a lot of time when they plainly post and I know to avoid them.

From the business perspective, the way they went about it, is just plain stupid. Every time you do something like that, basically, they created a confrontation, you run risk of panicking other customers. The is also the risk they do that to a hot head. I know of a few folks who would get screaming mad. While they would not ever pull their weapons about it, I am sure the police would be involved which does nothing for the store.

Yeah he was CCW and nobody should have known, but is there anyone on here who CCWs (IWB or shoulder, etc) who can say they have never, ever run into a situation where a series of events leads you to print even in the slightest? If you have a clerk who is paying attention at the right moment, you can be "made". Especially in summer time. I would not be too critical on him for that point.

jimmyraythomason
May 17, 2010, 12:31 PM
Easy enough I just won't shop there. That's it right there. Nothing further need to be done.

308win
May 17, 2010, 12:35 PM
Each KMA (kroger Market Area) may have a different policy as the KMA Presidents have quite a bit of autonomy. I haven't noticed a posted Kroger in the Columbus area yet.

hso
May 17, 2010, 01:26 PM
Folks, unlike General this is not a general discussion forum.

We've identified that there's an RKBA issue and gopguy has posted a plan of action. If there's anything to discuss it needs to be specifically related to the plan.

Some sample letters would be nice to have for folks to use as a starting point for their own letters to the company. Perhaps it would be useful to look at the previous Kroger action where they reacted favorably to our pressure to change their policy. http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=433903&highlight=kroger

Here's a letter that I've modified from the Ohio carry group to be a bit more general. Please tailor it to your needs, but keep any vitriol and threats out of it. We want them to understand that Kroger corporation will face losses whenever any of their store managers, regional managers or corporate managers makes policy discriminating against lawful carry.

Here's the direct link to Kroger's Customer Comment webpage - https://customer.kroger.com/comments/comments.aspx Be sure to indicate it's concerning a policy.

Customer Service,

I have learned that Kroger Inc. has decided to prohibit customers who possess a state issued permit to carry a handgun from entering Kroger stores. This decision will result not only in our entire family immediately ceasing conducting any business at any Kroger store, but will also result in our encouraging all of our friends and neighbors to do the same as well as posting the same advice to various internet groups.

Permit holders are truly the “good guys” and are precisely the sort of people who you want to encourage to patronize your stores. They undergo a rigorous background investigation, are fingerprinted, and pay for their permits and the training by a state-approved instructor on the safe use of a firearm and the legal ramifications of carrying a handgun for self-defense. Convicted felons, or anyone with a drug conviction, cannot be issued such permits and pay no attention to "No Guns" postings anyway.

Kroger is NOT required to prohibit permit holders and their weapons from doing business with them. It is your company's choice to discriminate against permit holders.

I have estimated our annual grocery budget to be at least $xx,yyy. This is the amount of revenue which Kroger has decided would be better spent elsewhere. I am certain that Walmart or any of the other grocery chains who do NOT post “No Weapons” signs like Kroger has decided to do will welcome the new business they will be seeing.

I urge you to consult upper management and encourage them to reverse this ill-advised and dangerous position and reverse any policy prohibiting potential customers legally carrying a firearm from doing business with any Kroger company establishments.

Regards,

YYY ZZZZ

Carne Frio
May 17, 2010, 02:12 PM
I find this Kroger thing to be very strange. Kroger is the
parent company of Fred Meyer, a large grocery chain in
the pacific northwest. The Fred Meyers in Alaska sell ammo,
handguns, rifle and shotguns. Many customers and some
employees carry concealed in the stores, daily. Looks
like it might have to more with location than corporation.

Wahoo95
May 17, 2010, 02:17 PM
Harris Teeter tried the same thing down here in NC, however an extensive letter writing campaign killed it and now all the signs have been removed!

whoyouknow
May 17, 2010, 06:42 PM
They can "ban" all they want, wont stop be from carrying.

gopguy
May 17, 2010, 06:56 PM
Just got a phone call from Andrew and it looks like we have won. Kroger corporate called his wife saying they were overwhelmed with the response, we are melting their phone lines, tying up the computers and they want this over. He told her we can carry but the gun must be concealed. So it sounds like they are ready to capitulate. I will look forward to seeing the letter they send him to that effect and will post it when I have a copy.


Thanks to all who made the calls and wrote, it looks like your actions have won the day!

Snakum
May 17, 2010, 07:06 PM
Now that's the way to get it done! Good job folks!

jkulysses
May 17, 2010, 07:08 PM
Haha that's awesome!!

hso
May 17, 2010, 07:09 PM
The interesting question is where the ban actually was in effect and what level the decision was made at to put it into effect. I'm sure that Kroger corporate will be looking for the manager that made the decision that resulted in this much anger on the part of customers.

The Lone Haranguer
May 17, 2010, 07:39 PM
The interesting question is where the ban actually was in effect and what level the decision was made at to put it into effect. Each KMA (kroger Market Area) may have a different policy as the KMA Presidents have quite a bit of autonomy. I haven't noticed a posted Kroger in the Columbus area yet.
I hope this is the answer, because the one here is not "posted." It is one of my favorite supermarkets, too.

Of course, the whole thing could have been avoided by concealing the weapon.

gopguy
May 17, 2010, 09:10 PM
I hope this is the answer, because the one here is not "posted." It is one of my favorite supermarkets, too.

This store was not posted.

Of course, the whole thing could have been avoided by concealing the weapon.

He was picking up his crying three year old and her shoe caught and lifted the shirt, could happen to anyone, but open carry is legal in Ohio and had been done in that particular store for years. Overzealous manager is what this boiled down to.

They know exactly who the manager at the Wilmington store is that started this as his name turns up in the posts on the club forum discussions. I do think his career has hit a brick wall of sorts...well deserved though.

hso
May 17, 2010, 09:32 PM
Of course, the whole thing could have been avoided by concealing the weapon.


That's not relevant to the discussion of what plan to put into action to force Kroger to reverse their anti RKBA policy. Whether concealed or openly carried, Kroger has no business posting against legally carried firearms.

It is important to continue to push them to issue a policy saying that Kroger will not allow stores to post against permit holders except where required to by law. That may include where liquor is sold, but shouldn't include anywhere else.

gopguy
May 17, 2010, 09:47 PM
Indeed, I am waiting to see what the letter they send to Andy says and what exactly they say the new policy is before we completely call off the dogs... I will post that as soon as I have it.

Caliper_RWVA
May 17, 2010, 11:03 PM
Easy enough I just won't shop there.

I really feel in todays marketplace with so many competitors that you need to let them know WHY you are not shopping there. Without your letter, they may assume that it was just Meijers latest sale, Wal-Marts new ad campaign, etc. Letters put this issue on their radar and let them know that it's not what they AREN'T doing (ie: better/more ad campaigns) it is what they ARE doing (ie: infringing on our rights)

Of course, the whole thing could have been avoided by concealing the weapon.

So, stay in the closet, eh? I grew up in an area (N. Va) that gave me that way of thinking. Now I realize that this way of thinking simply divides us, makes gun owners think they are in a distinct minority and, I think, works to reduce our collective clout to influence change.

I definitely plan to write, BTW!

USMC - Retired
May 17, 2010, 11:45 PM
Must be a regional thing. Kroger in Georgia is a Corporate Sponsor of GCO and has a policy of following state law (permit open or concealed carry) in thier stores here.

evan price
May 18, 2010, 06:35 AM
I sent my e-letter Saturday, and heard nothing back but the automated response.
We've been pushing it hard at Ohioans for Concealed Carry to get this resolved.

rattletrap1970
May 18, 2010, 07:36 AM
Now let's hope the anti gun manager ends up on the bread line.

rellascout
May 18, 2010, 10:50 AM
That's not relevant to the discussion of what plan to put into action to force Kroger to reverse their anti RKBA policy. Whether concealed or openly carried, Kroger has no business posting against legally carried firearms.

It is important to continue to push them to issue a policy saying that Kroger will not allow stores to post against permit holders except where required to by law. That may include where liquor is sold, but shouldn't include anywhere else.

I firmly disagree. I believe I have a right to own and carry a gun but that right does not trump property owners and business owners rights to post and to prohibit carry on their property. Do you allow anyone and everyone to carry a gun into your home? No one if forcing you to shop at Kroger. No one is forcing you to disarm in order to feed your family. YMMV

Double Naught Spy
May 18, 2010, 11:05 AM
Keep in mind the store was not posted at the time of the incident and open carry is legal in Ohio, so the fact the gun was seen is not an issue.

Of course the gun being seen was an issue. D'uh! That is why the guy was asked to leave. While the store should have been posted, the manager still has the power to ask a patron to leave.

Kroger has the law behind it in posting or telling patrons that they cannot carry within a Kroger store as they are the owners/managers of the private property on which the store is located.

gopguy
May 18, 2010, 05:27 PM
As said before, people open carry in that store often. The issue was an OVERZEALOUS MANAGER.

basicblur
May 18, 2010, 05:51 PM
Legally, don't know how this issue is going to hash out down the road, but here's Judge Napolotano's take (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP1Wgkh5MeE&feature=related) on the Starbucks open carry flap.

Note he says, "Starbucks is a public accommodation, which means it invites the public to come on its property, and when the public comes on its property, the public doesn't shed any of it's Constitutional Rights".

As he says in the video-if it's your property, you can pretty much do what you want.
If it's your property and you openly invited the public on it, not so much.

bigfatdave
May 18, 2010, 05:58 PM
As said before, people open carry in that store often. The issue was an OVERZEALOUS MANAGER. Overzealous and inconsistent.

"Ummm, I think your gun is dangerous, but I'll just annoy you on purpose anyway"

Atroxus
May 18, 2010, 06:10 PM
I agree with everything you said Basicblur. However I believe that property owners can limit what parts of the public can use their property. I don't thinks it is as "all or nothing" as your quote makes it seem. For example, "No shirt, no shoes, no service". So while a business is free to post signs and not allow the public to use their property if we are not clothed properly, or if we are armed we as consumers are still free to take our business elsewhere.

basicblur
May 18, 2010, 06:28 PM
However I believe that property owners can limit what parts of the public can use their property.
Even if they are denying you a constitutional right (and since it's in The Constitution, by nature it's a civil right).
As stated, this one is probably headed for the courts somewhere down the road?

I don't thinks it is as "all or nothing" as your quote makes it seem.
For the record, that's not my quote-it's from the Napolotano video interview.

For example, "No shirt, no shoes, no service". So while a business is free to post signs and not allow the public to use their property if we are not clothed properly, or if we are armed we as consumers are still free to take our business elsewhere.
Are you really going to equate no shirt/no shoes to OC/CC?
Don't know all the particulars regarding the shirt/shoes signs, but it may be related to health issues, and is The Constitution as specific 'bout you not wearing shirts/shoes as it is 'bout your right to keep and bear arms?
How 'bout a "No Jews, no Italians, no Irish etc sign?
How far would a business get with a sign like that posted?

rellascout
May 18, 2010, 06:29 PM
Legally, don't know how this issue is going to hash out down the road, but here's Judge Napolotano's take on the Starbucks open carry flap.

Note he says, "Starbucks is a public accommodation, which means it invites the public to come on its property, and when the public comes on its property, the public doesn't shed any of it's Constitutional Rights".

As he says in the video-if it's your property, you can pretty much do what you want.
If it's your property and you openly invited the public on it, not so much.

Until there is a national right to carry your "constitutional rights" are not in play. Sorry to disappoint you.

rellascout
May 18, 2010, 06:31 PM
How 'bout a "No Jews, no Italians, no Irish etc sign?
How far would a business get with a sign like that posted?

Apples and oranges. You simply don't get it.

basicblur
May 18, 2010, 06:35 PM
Until there is a national right to carry your "constitutional rights" are not in play.

Which may be decided by SCOTUS very soon (McDonald vs Chicago)?
'Course, there will probably be more legal cases 'til this thing is hashed out.

Atroxus
May 18, 2010, 06:44 PM
Even if they are denying you a constitutional right (and since it's in The Constitution, by nature it's a civil right).
As stated, this one is probably headed for the courts somewhere down the road?


For the record, that's not my quote-it's from the Napolotano video interview.


Are you really going to equate no shirt/no shoes to OC/CC?
Don't know all the particulars regarding the shirt/shoes signs, but it may be related to health issues, and is The Constitution as specific 'bout you not wearing shirts/shoes as it is 'bout your right to keep and bear arms?
How 'bout a "No Jews, no Italians, no Irish etc sign?
How far would a business get with a sign like that posted?
When I said "your quote" I meant that as in the quote that you posted, I wasn't trying to say that it was a quote of somthihng you said.

And absolutely I am willing to equate wearing a gun with wearing a shirt. If a business can tell someone they can't enter because they are not wearing something, I see no reason that they can't do the same for someone who IS wearing something. I do think that to do so they should have to post any restrictions clearly at all entrances though, which gives consumers opportunity to not use services that deny entry to OC/CC gun carriers. We have the right to carry, but at the same time the antis also have the right to have their property be as unsafe as they want by denying the presence of firearms.

rellascout
May 18, 2010, 06:46 PM
Which may be decided by SCOTUS very soon (McDonald vs Chicago)?
'Course, there will probably be more legal cases 'til this thing is hashed out.

Right but people like you are already declaring it a right. At this point that is not the case yet you continue to claim it as one. Your assertion has no legal standing.

At this point the right to carry is a state issue. I know of no state that will allow you to remain armed on private property once the property owner has asked you to leave.

You are arguing from a non-existent foundation because it suits your purpose. I can argue that the sky is green all I want but it does not give my conclusions any credibility.

CSA 357
May 18, 2010, 07:34 PM
Is kroger the only store where you live?

rondog
May 18, 2010, 07:53 PM
Does anybody know if King Soopers is a part of the Kroger chain? KS are pretty prolific here, and I "think" they're part of the same co.

Averageman
May 18, 2010, 08:56 PM
I got a great idea,...DONT SHOP AT KROGERS.

riddleofsteel
May 18, 2010, 10:02 PM
Many years ago the Kmart in Greensboro, NC posted their store against firearms. This is despite the fact they sell ammo and firearms. I asked for clarification as to if it pertained to CCW holders and was told it did.
I contacted Grassroots NC. This is the group that tirelessly campaigned for CCW here in NC. Within a week the communications of the business offices of Walmart was flooded with complaints, inquiries, and coments.
Signs came down.

Booya...strength in numbers

Caliper_RWVA
May 18, 2010, 10:22 PM
I believe I have a right to own and carry a gun but that right does not trump property owners and business owners rights to post and to prohibit carry on their property.

I do agree with this. I actually agree with the later statements about a property owner denying anyone access to their property for any reason they choose. It is private property, after all and since denying access to it harms no one else, that is their choice.

However, in this case the private property is that of a merchant and they want our money. So, while I respect their choice, I do not have to patronize them.

Someone offered the possibility of a business forbidding people of a certain race from entering. I do believe that they have the right to do that. But, society would not tolerate it. Most people (myself included) would boycott such a store and likely drive them from business.

I think of the business owner denying me the right to carry in the same way. We can certainly respect their choice, but at the same time calmly inform them that as a consequence of our respecting their choice, we will be taking our money elsewhere. Sure, we may not get the same public outrage as a store that bans Jewish people or Hispanics, but we as gun owners and armed citizens can boycott the store and inform them of why. Think of it as your vote for what types of business you want around. This does work and if we stick to it it will change things.

hso
May 18, 2010, 10:47 PM
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=270671

General is the place to debate issues. Activism has a more narrow action oriented focus. See rellascout's thread in General if you want to debate the individual vs. property owner rights question.

If you enjoyed reading about "Kroger chain bans customers from carrying" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!