What do you Load in your 45 acp for personal defense?


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grubbylabs
May 19, 2010, 12:58 AM
I am going to buy powder tomorrow and I am not sure what I want to try. I have used Blue Dot shoots good but dirty, and power pistol, real snappy and not consistent. I have 4" Springer XD 45c
I will have 185grn HP and 230 grn HPs. If you load another let me know and what/why.

Thanks, Grubbs

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frankge
May 19, 2010, 09:10 AM
Remington Golden Sabres - IMHO I'd use factory for SD

loadedround
May 19, 2010, 09:21 AM
My PD ammo is a hard cast 200 gr SWC over a healthy charge of Unique. The load feeds perfectly from all my 45's and I go with what works. BTW, my bullets are "Lasercast" bullets by Oregon Trail.

Elmar66
May 19, 2010, 10:01 AM
Federal Hydrashocks in both my .45 ACP and .380

I've always heard it's better to use factory ammo, less legal hassles if you actually have to use it. You won't have to spend so much time explaining how much powder you used, if it was a "hot" round, if you were "testing" it's capability, etc.

Yeah it's expensive to use, but if you ever have to use it, it's worth every penny.

Walkalong
May 19, 2010, 10:26 AM
Factory ammo for me.

WSF, AA #5, HS-6, True Blue, Unique, or something in that range to push those jacketed bullets hard.

natman
May 19, 2010, 10:27 AM
Federal 230 grain Hydrashocks. It's a good load and my fixed sight Witness shoots them into small groups right at point of aim. I figured that was a sign that this was the load.

Drail
May 19, 2010, 10:32 AM
I have done a lot of testing and settled on a 200 gr. flat point cast slug over 5.5 gr. of Winchester Super Target or Bullseye. Feeds very reliably in all of my guns and will penetrate 4 one gallon milk jugs filled with water. (The first jug is reduced to small pieces.) This load is very close to what the Army Ordinance Board specified when Browning originally designed the 1911, a 200 gr. bullet at 900 fps. JHP bullets will very often become plugged with clothing material and act just like hardball. When they work they work very well but I have little faith in them and have chosen to rely on a non expanding bullet.

Marlin 45 carbine
May 19, 2010, 10:46 AM
185gr Rem GS over Power Pistol for about 990fps.

moxie
May 19, 2010, 11:22 AM
Ditto on the Unique.

ljnowell
May 19, 2010, 12:16 PM
I used to use XTPs with Power Pistol. I now use a 230gr LRN with Power Pistol. They clock right at 900fps. Plenty of ummph.

grubbylabs
May 20, 2010, 02:27 AM
Thanks for all your replies. I can certainly see the advantage to factory ammo should the need ever arise. Lots less to explain. After some first hand info on a police shooting her in poky I am not sure I have a lot of faith in Hp's. I have been using a 230grn plated HP from Rocky Mountain Reloading. It does not appear to have been designed to expand like some of the premium HP bullets on the market. But I have been contemplating getting some Gold Dot HPs but I am not sure if I want 185, 200, or 230 grain bullets.
Thanks for all your opinions.

Kentucky Jelly
May 20, 2010, 08:22 AM
I use factory Hornady 230 XTP +P. I reload 230 gr xtp over 5 grain of titegroup to practice with.

HOWARD J
May 20, 2010, 08:56 AM
Hydrashoks mixed with Glaser Safety Slugs................

71Commander
May 20, 2010, 09:18 AM
I see more of the running in circles, the sky is falling cries about using handloads in SD. NONE of it can be proven though.

Either it's a good shoot or it's not.

I use handloads in all my carry calibers.

In .45 ACP, I use 230 Golden Sabers on top of 6.8 of Longshot. I love that powder. Hard to beat on many calibers for SD loads.

budiceman
May 20, 2010, 10:12 AM
I see more of the running in circles, the sky is falling cries about using handloads in SD. NONE of it can be proven though.

DITTO!
Not a case yet since it has been on the books! A friend of afriends brother heard it from some instructor who wanted to sound like he was teaching a good class. Yet no proof what so ever!!!!

Wilburt
May 20, 2010, 10:43 AM
I personally like 230 gr. Federal HST 2. Standard pressure. I think a load should be chosen on research, not inernet experts. This site is a good resource with information from Dr. Fackler (Well know reasearcher in Wounding Ballistics). Worth some reading time.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

Also this is a good article. A bit old, but....

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

BlayGlock
May 20, 2010, 01:31 PM
230 gr Hornady XTP JHP over HS-6.

trickyasafox
May 20, 2010, 02:31 PM
Winchester 185gr silver tips, remington 230gr golden sabers, TAP CQ 230gr, - whatever is on sale. Modern hollowpoint technology is pretty good. I don't have tons of money to spend on factory ammo, so I buy what feeds well in my gun that I can afford.

coloradokevin
May 20, 2010, 02:37 PM
I use factory ammo for personal defense in my pistols (200gr Speer Gold Dot). Personally, I do so for a greater guarantee of reliable function. I've never had a handload fail in my reloading career, but I also haven't taken the time to chronograph most of my pistol loads, and I have shot far more factory ammo than I have handloaded ammo over the years.

I'm sure that I'd be fine using handloads if I made a significant effort to do so, but I'd want to be sure that I made those pistol rounds to very exacting specifications (checking velocities over a chrony, primer seating depths, etc). I just don't put all that much effort into pistol loading, as I typically load for plinking or IPSC matches (short range and fast shots). I've also found that the factory defensive loads are of high quality, and function reliably. Plus, the cost difference is only marginally significant, since I don't normally shoot through my defensive loads.

As far as the legal concerns of using handloads, I could see this being a major problem for a police department, or other public safety organization (we face scrutiny on everything, given our role of serving the public). Otherwise, the idea that handloads would be a problem (legally) in a self-defense situation involving a private citizen has always struck me as internet mythology. Simply put, if you pull the trigger on a person, the shoot is going to be judged on the circumstances, not the ammo that you were carrying.

If anyone claims otherwise on the subject of handload legality, I'd love to see some documentation of any court case where the ammo that was used was decided to be the determining factor regarding the legality of a defensive shooting! Simply put, the legality is the least of my concernes when it comes to carrying handloaded ammo for defensive purposes!

grubbylabs
May 20, 2010, 03:02 PM
I have heard some good things about the Speer Gold Dots. I think I am going to get some to load up and send over the chrony to see how they do.

I guess my concerns stems from hearing about a shooting in our town. The local police were involved in a shooting. They shot the guy several times with 45's. The only fatal shot was a point blank head shot by one of the officers. I don't know what ammunition they were shooting, but a witness to the autopsy said that the penetration left a lot to be desired, in fact the only serious wound was the head shot.

I am not sure why they were not getting good penetration, but I would like to avoid that kind of situation.

Wilburt
May 20, 2010, 03:20 PM
They shot the guy several times with 45's. The only fatal shot was a point blank head shot by one of the officers. I don't know what ammunition they were shooting, but a witness to the autopsy said that the penetration left a lot to be desired, in fact the only serious wound was the head shot.

In the links I provided above it talks about these things. How brain and upper spinal cord hits are the only way to have immediate incapacitation. In all reality, most standard handgun calibers don't have the ability to produce immediate incapacitation otherwise. All they do is damage organs and blood vessels to promote exsanguination (bleeding out or physical incapacitation). The two main factors for incapacitation are physical and psychological. It goes on.... etc.....

There’s good stuff in there.

RandyP
May 20, 2010, 04:07 PM
I carry only factory made, I range plink with with my low-med on the tables reloads. The paper targets can't seem to tell the difference.

Clark
May 20, 2010, 10:28 PM
When I go to sin city at night, I carry .452" 152 gr Copperized LSWC bullets pushed by Power Pistol.

buck460XVR
May 20, 2010, 10:40 PM
230 gr XTPs over W231. Like others have said......if it's a good shoot, it's a good shoot.

jeepmor
May 21, 2010, 01:43 AM
Whatever combo works best in your intended firearm is what I'd use. I've been very happy with how an XTP seems to open up and expand no matter what it hits. I've had speer GDs plug the tip and become effectively hardball. I've seen others partially expand, but those XTPs, I've never dug one out of the dirt, stump, gravel or water jug without seeing it expanded.

And I'm shooting a 3" barrel 45 on all these at typical 21' distance.

Hope it helps,

jeepmor

bds
May 21, 2010, 03:04 AM
I used to use Hydra Shok for HD/SD but have switched over to Golden Saber / Ranger SXT.

I load similar weight bullets (jacketed/plated) to duplicate the recoil/shot placement of the factory JHP round and practice with them. Although I prefer to load my magazines with factory ammunition for SD/HD, bulk factory JHP like Golden Saber bullets are available if you choose to reload your own SD/HD rounds. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1601267681

Having said that, I would certainly feel quite confident with my 45 pistol loaded with 230 gr RN whether jacketed/plated or even lead.

Ian Sean
May 21, 2010, 03:47 AM
5 of Bullseye and 230 gr. XTP's for me, this has proven to be a good load through my .45, I load on a single stage for my carry ammo and take my time, checking and rechecking everything.

grubbylabs
May 21, 2010, 03:59 PM
Well I was given some 185 grn HP's the other day and they shot really well with unique on the higher end of the charge data 8.2 is max and I loaded 7.5-7.8- and 8.1
So this morning I went and picked up some speer Gold Dot HP' in 185. I have loaded 5 at each increment. The free ones that I don't know the name of for sure but they might be Berry's shot the best at 8.2 so I suspect the gold dots will do well around there but I am loading the others just to make sure.

sniper55
May 21, 2010, 04:33 PM
6.1 grs. of w231 or hp-38 same powder behind 200 gr. Horn XTP. Per Hornady 5.9 start Max 6.8 works for me.

sniper55
May 21, 2010, 06:58 PM
Sorry about my first reply do not use this load my bad. Was suppose to be START 5.9 MAX 6.8 of Unique instead of 231 Sorry again was at work and got interrupted.

altitude_19
May 22, 2010, 01:12 PM
Don't use 'em. There's the short answer.
The long answer: Discharge residue can be used to determine the distance from your assailant at the time of the shooting. If you load the cartridge so that it leaves more or less residue, it can be construed that your knife wielding attacker was too far away from you to be an immediate threat when you fired on him. The details vary of course, but the bottom line is this: How far you were from the person you shot is VERY darn important. You'll hear people say "NOT ONE SUCH DOCUMENTED CASE IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND!" They are incorrect (but they probably don't care to hear the facts because they believe they produce the greatest ammo the world has ever known). Here's one case (http://www.boiseshooters.com/index.php?topic=1883.0;wap2). And there are others such as NH v. Kennedy. Bottom line, investigators need to know the composition of your load to determine whether or not a shooting was righteous, and they cannot take your word from your hand-written "bullet diary" as to what was really behind the lead you sent downrange. Thinking they will believe your load log is tantamount to assuming a crook would get off because the cops found a note that said "wasn't me" in his pocket.

buck460XVR
May 22, 2010, 01:42 PM
Here's one case.

Sorry altitude_19....I have seen this same article posted in many of these "Do you use handloads for SD/HD?'' threads. It has nuttin' to do with a SD/HD shoot being justified or not. It has to do with a case of whether a handgun death was a suicide or a murder. Something that will always be an issue when a wife is killed, her husbands fingerprints are on the gun and the husband's story does not match forensic evidence. The reason the defendant was charged with reckless manslaughter had to do with other reasons, not just because he had reloads in the gun. The guy killed his wife. Even if his story, which is what what is really challenged and at question here, not the choice of ammo, was true, he still was negligent and was still guilty of reckless manslaughter. I think he murdered his wife and got off easy.

SOUTHPAW
May 22, 2010, 01:51 PM
http://www.priceinsanity.com/catalog/wincpics45pdb.jpg

BP Hunter
May 22, 2010, 02:10 PM
230gr Hornady XTP with 5.8gr of Unique. My Taurus PT 1911 and Sig Sauer P220 seem to agree with it. Shoots straight and accuracte.

zxcvbob
May 22, 2010, 02:16 PM
I see more of the running in circles, the sky is falling cries about using handloads in SD. NONE of it can be proven though. Either it's a good shoot or it's not.

I use handloads in all my carry calibers.I mostly agree with this. Just remember that to an outsider, it might not be obvious whether it was a good shoot or not. I use handloads in my HD guns. I haven't made up my mind yet about carry guns. I do think the risk is way overblown, but it's not zero.

bds
May 22, 2010, 02:25 PM
We had several long-term discussions on this very issue at the ranges/matches and we finally decided loading factory JHP for SD/HD was a cheap insurance to eliminate this legal liability IF/WHEN it became an issue (I live in God forsaken anti-gun state of California :cuss:).

Ultimately, if there was a JUSTIFIED shooting of SD/HD situation, you will be tried by your peer of 12. I just don't trust the peer of 12 I will have to content with in my state/county/city. :D

Your situation in your state/county/city may vary. Yes, I have retirement plans AWAY from California.

amd6547
May 22, 2010, 03:22 PM
I have a 45acp Ballester Molina which functions perfectly with any JHP I have tried...but I use whatever FMJ 230gn ball load I find.

cheygriz
May 22, 2010, 10:11 PM
For defense?????

I "load" FACTORY Remington 185 grain +P Golden sabres. :)

altitude_19
May 23, 2010, 02:29 AM
It has nuttin' to do with a SD/HD shoot being justified or not

You missed the part about the details varying (and there being other cases). The rhetoric remains the same. Investigators need to determine how far you were from your target and that can only be done with replicable load data that CANNOT be reliably obtained from handloads (notice how there was a different load in every chamber of the death weapon in the case I posted). If you play the "those precise circumstances could never happen to me" game, it's doubtful you will ever learn from anyone's mistakes except your own (believe me, that's a hard road to travel).
But, since you asked here is ANOTHER CASE: Officer stops suspect, officer is involved in physical altercation, suspect is shot. Suspect subsequently claims he was 30 feet away from the officer. He did not have a firearm and says he was shot for no reason without proper escalation of force. Gunshot residue establishes suspect was 18 inches from the officer's weapon at time of discharge and indeed posed an immediate threat. This would not have been established if the officer did not have a weapon charged with FACTORY ammo with verifiable type and amount of propellant. Officer is acquitted. Sound a little more like what could happen to you? You can find all the details of this case by searching for Iowa v. Cpl. Randy Willems. And yes, there are STILL MORE cases for you to review if you still intend to cast doubt on just how much a liability this can be.

steve4102
May 23, 2010, 10:59 AM
Gunshot residue establishes suspect was 18 inches from the officer's weapon at time of discharge and indeed posed an immediate threat. This would not have been established if the officer did not have a weapon charged with FACTORY ammo with verifiable type and amount of propellant.

Are you saying handloads do NOT produce "gunshot" gunpowder residue? Are you saying that if I am involved in a shooting and my weapon and ammo are confiscated they cannot test my ammo because it is a handload?

Walkalong
May 23, 2010, 11:03 AM
What was the original question? Haven't we beat this dead horse enough in other threads?

buck460XVR
May 23, 2010, 12:58 PM
You missed the part about the details varying (and there being other cases). The rhetoric remains the same. Investigators need to determine how far you were from your target and that can only be done with replicable load data that CANNOT be reliably obtained from handloads (notice how there was a different load in every chamber of the death weapon in the case I posted).


no....I didn't miss that part. I've read the article more than once. Every time I read it, the defendant's story gets harder and harder to believe. As I said before, this ten year old article has been posted many a time in many different gun forums in an attempt to prove the existence of evidence that one should not use handloads for SD.....and just as many times, it has been shown, it has nothing at all to do with a SD shoot being justified or not. Actually if there would have been factory ammo in the gun, the defendant probably would have gone to the gas chamber or life in prison. Only by the clouding of the issue by the defense and whether or not the handloads had enough power to leave GSR at close range, made the difference between a murder or a manslaughter verdict. Had they been factory loads in the gun with no GSR, the defendant woulda fried. The evidence you give from the other case verifies this. Handguns leave GSR at close range. By your argument in the first case, we should all use handloads for SD, because the DA would never be able to prove at what range we shot our attacker, thus the jury would have to take our word for it instead of using forensic evidence.

If you play the "those precise circumstances could never happen to me" game, it's doubtful you will ever learn from anyone's mistakes except your own (believe me, that's a hard road to travel)

Thanks for the concern. But you are making the assumption that I'm making a mistake. You have yet to provide any kind of evidence to me that I am. That tells me it is you making the mistake. Not a hard road at all. If you wish to only use factory loads in your SD weapon, go for it. Till there is solid evidence that my handloads by themselves, will turn a good shoot into a bad shoot, I will continue to use them without fear. I guarantee you, my handloads will leave GSR at close range.........:D

altitude_19
May 23, 2010, 02:20 PM
Ok, the fellow whose wife shot herself in front of him was a "good shoot" that turned into a bad one (went to trial). And your saying it isn't and trying to cast doubt on the acquittal is evidence that stories get harder to verify when handloads are used.
The base logic is that handloads may skew the results of an investigation (you claim it happened here). You say the result in this case was that a guilty man was acquitted and that handloads swung the verdict in his favor. If that's true, what makes you think they couldn't swing the results towards an erroneous conviction (YOURS)? Even if you aren't erroneously convicted, it can make your defense considerably more challenging, and that's something most care to avoid.

But since that one isn't good enough. NH V Kennedy was a case regarding a righteous shoot that was taken to trial with much ado made over home-made ammunition with the insinuation that the shooter was so hell-bent on causing maximum damage that he manufactured his own deadly brand of ammunition. He was acquitted, but I don't want to know what his legal fees were from the extra lawyer hours and expert testimony that went towards defeating the "Convict Rambo" style prosecution. Is the $10 per box savings on handloaded vs defensive ammo worth your life-long financial ruin following a trial defense?

In the case of Iowa v. Cpl. Randy Willems (which you haven't mentioned reading) GSR may not have led to the case going to trial, but RELIABLE REPLICABLE GSR data as a result of factory loads resulted in the acquittal. Had he used handloads that resulted in less GSR, he would have appeared further away (giving merit his assailant's accusations). This case serves as proof that GSR results from factory ammo can acquit you. Your handload might or might not convict you (it WILL NEVER get you exonerated after being taken to trial), but why wouldn't you carry factory ammo that can get you off the hook?

So this whole "no documented cases of handloads causing trouble" argument is smoke. Remember, the best fight is the one you avoid. Here's the summary:

Handloads CAN cause you trouble. It has happened before. They have never acquitted anyone through forensic evidence. If they have, the results of the case will forever be in question as a result of un-vetted evidence (you're claims of a wrongful acquittal are proof).

Factory loads CAN provide more verifiable evidence that will result in your acquittal (if not preventing a trail in the first place). They HAVE acquitted wrongfully accused defendants who fired in self-defense.

BUT, I should have asked the question in the first place: What (aside from a few bucks in your pocket) makes handloads worth all this uncertainty?

zxcvbob
May 23, 2010, 03:40 PM
Are you saying that if I am involved in a shooting and my weapon and ammo are confiscated they cannot test my ammo because it is a handload? They could test it, but they won't. The prosecution will claim that you "manufactured the evidence", and the judge will eat that up because it sounds so clever.

I'm not worried about that at home, and I use handloads. The one or two times I've carried, I had factory ammo in the magazine (different gun) and handloads in the spare mag.

Polar Express
May 23, 2010, 03:59 PM
In my opinion, I always grab a factory loaded product for that is marketed for SD.

My logic is this: I make sure the box has 'self-defense' or something similar on it somewhere.

I have no idea whatsoever if it would help me, but in my mind, if I ever end up having to use that ammo in that capacity, and I find myself in court over the issue, I would like to be able to produce the box that clearly lists the product as a self-defense product. Again, I'm not a lawyer, but I figure every little bit helps.

That being said/written, I'd pick the nastiest, most expanding with ultra sharp nasties that come out product I could find - that came in a box labled as 'self-defense'.

I personally, don't make that decision based on a reliablilty issue at all. I just don't want some idiot trying to say that I 'brewed up some extra hot loads just to make sure the bad guy was good and dead'.

Again, I'm not a lawyer, but I'm trying to cover my backside in case I do need to use it.

PE

BsChoy
May 23, 2010, 04:12 PM
Speer 230gr Gold Dot standard pressure in my M&P

Ky Larry
May 23, 2010, 04:17 PM
I carry Winchester White Box 230gr JHP's in my Kimber.Wally World was clearing them out a few years ago and I bought a case of this ammo. I've found 8.2gr of AA#5 under a Hornady XTP to shoot to the same point of impact. I will probably carry this load when my stash of Win ammo runs out.

bds
May 23, 2010, 04:34 PM
Just a thought.

I think the old 230 gr FMJ "ball ammo" sure did a great job of "defending" US military personnel over several wars and they probably felt sufficient with that round.

Since the introduction of various hollow point ammunitions, my guess is that terminal ballistics of these JHP rounds gotta be better than the 230 gr FMJ.

I do not know if the OP was asking (for polling purposes) what the most popular 45 ACP rounds were or trying to determine which round may have the best terminal ballistics.

buck460XVR
May 23, 2010, 04:38 PM
Ok, the fellow whose wife shot herself in front of him was a "good shoot" that turned into a bad one (went to trial) yep....and if you read your own link, you'll see that after 4 trials it was still determined that it was not a suicide........that he pulled the trigger. This was supported by more evidence than just the lack of GSR. Only thing mulled was whether or not it was murder or an accident. Has absolutely nuttin' to do with a private citizen using reloaded ammo for SD and it making a difference. The NH V Kennedy case is a forty year old case of a police officer that claims a drunk in a ditch grabbed his gun and shot himself in the face with it. Again (altho it was brought up in court that he used reloaded ammo)his use of reloaded ammo had nuttin' to do with his exoneration. If I remember correctly, there were conflicts in the defendants story and a prior history of excessive force that led to the original charge of aggravated assault. The other case you mention is a case of a cop shooting a BG with factory ammo.....and you ASSUME there MAY have been a problem if he had used reloaded ammo. Neither of the latter two cases has anything to do with a private citizen using handloaded ammo for SD and it taking a good shoot and making it bad, no matter how you twist it. The cases you refer to have been brought to our attention here on THR before by Mas Ayoob. Nuttin' new. I have read them, thought about them and made a decision based on the fact again, that none of these cases has anything to do with private citizens using handloaded ammo for SD.


The reason I use handloaded ammo is not only because of cost, but because I have confidence in the way it performs in my guns. I know the odds of me ever having to use them in SD are less than me winning the lottery. The odds of me being wrongly convicted because of using reloaded ammo in a SD situation according to the facts YOU have presented are less than that.......exactly zero.

JohnMcD348
May 23, 2010, 05:46 PM
I like both Hydrashok and Gold Saber. I lean more toward the HS but seem to be using the GS more as I sometimes have trouble finding the HS in the caliber I want. I've been a HS fan for years ever since I bought my first .357(S&W686 4") about 20 years ago. It was recommended to me by some LEO friends at the time as it worked remarkably well for them in their 9mm they were forced to carry at the time.

A and O
May 24, 2010, 02:37 AM
Thank You Wilburt.

I just spent 2 hrs. plus digesting info from the links and recommend everybody else to take the time and do the same.

That said, Gold Dots (Factory) have proven to be the most accurate in my XD40 and the Federal HI-SHOK's (factory*) have proven to be the most accurate in my Kimber Customll.

As far as carry as a Joe Public I am perfectly content in the carry of the above Commercial Ammo. If I thought my reloads with Golden Sabre's in the 40 and Nosler JHP in the 45 would be more terminal with the same accuracy then I would carry those. My approach is we can work out the details afterwords. If my life, or a friends or family members life is on the line I don't want to be haunted knowing I could have had a better outcome by using a different load. In other words if we are going to call ourselves prepared lets really be prepared. We don't want to find ourselves in a situation where we question ourselves for the rest of our lives.

If you have done all you know to do and fail, you have the satisfaction of not second guessing yourself. The law be damned if it is contrary, you will still be alive.

Thanks for your time.

*Upon realizing this particular Ammo (Federal 185gr JHP HI-SHOK) worked so well I stocked up and figured to use the spent brass for reloading. I know it's a couple gens back.

altitude_19
May 24, 2010, 07:23 AM
You need not jump to "conviction." I don't want my choice of ammo brought up in anything more than passing mention. The evil super-bullet argument is FAR more prevalent with handloads than factory ammo. I just can't see the advantage. It's a couple bucks of cheap insurance. I'm as confident as the next guy, but the raw numbers say malfunctions are more common with handloads than they are with premium factory defensive ammunition.

On to the next interesting side-note: Military uses hardball as a result of the geneva convention, which we interpret as forbidding expanding ammunition for regular military.
From a ballistic standpoint, FMJ is more likely to overpenetrate. I don't carry expanding ammo because it's more deadly, I carry it so that it doesn't overpenetrate and cause collateral damage.

DeepSouth
May 24, 2010, 07:29 AM
Short Barrel Gold Dots

http://i313.photobucket.com/albums/ll388/hsmom22boys/Billys00/MyFamily366.jpg

Wilburt
May 24, 2010, 05:35 PM
Thank You Wilburt.

I just spent 2 hrs. plus digesting info from the links and recommend everybody else to take the time and do the same.

No Problem. I just like to be educated enough to make a reasonable decision and know what my equipment is capable of.

danimalw
June 3, 2010, 02:46 PM
Ok, I know that this will be debated 'til the end of time, but here's my .02.

I bet McDonalds never thought that they would have to defend themselves in court and have to pay big legal fees and damages for selling hot coffee in a cup/lid that had a warning about hot coffee.

My point is that this wasn't a criminal case, but a civil case where the lawyers can really muck things up. Most of the above posts delt with the criminal side (police investigation) but didn't mention the civil side.

The only people who make out in any of these situations are the lawyers.....

Currently in my state, if someone breaks into my house and injures themselves (and I'm not even there) they can sue me for injuries. So if they can do that, what can they do if I shoot them with reloads while they are breaking in????

Sorry, everyone has to decide for themselves, but for me, factory ammo for SD/HD. Why give them one more thing to drag out in court at what $250/hr per lawyer?

grubbylabs
June 3, 2010, 10:35 PM
Well I have settled on the 185 Gold Dot Hollow points with 8 grains of Unique. It shoots good out of my XD and I am sure that it should be plenty to stop a BG. Although I am going to chrono it soon just so I know how fast it is going.

By the way, some thing that I have learned in the medical field and some other dablings is that if it is written down then it happened. So if your load journal says you loaded x amount of powder under X brand bullet of Y weight and design, then as far as the courts are concerned that is what happened.

FM12
June 4, 2010, 02:57 AM
185 JHP over a STOUT loading of Unique or Bullseye.

jhansman
June 4, 2010, 01:44 PM
Factory for me. Too many lawyers....

altitude_19
June 4, 2010, 03:06 PM
So if your load journal says you loaded x amount of powder under X brand bullet of Y weight and design, then as far as the courts are concerned that is what happened.
I see. So if I murder someone tonight, and have a note in my pocket that says I was in China when it happened, I'm off the hook? Writing it does not make it true, and it certainly doesn't make it admissible evidence. You cannot take the word of The Accused as to what the death weapon/ammunition was. Forensics will be used to attempt to determine what the ammo was, and that's a whole lot easier with factory loads (especially if a warranted search of your residence turns up the original packaging, lot number and all.

grubbylabs
June 4, 2010, 03:09 PM
Journals and written documents are commonly used as evidence and accepted as truth. Your example is neither applicable or rational.

Don't argue if you cant be reasonable.

altitude_19
June 4, 2010, 09:29 PM
These are rhetorically identical situations. One cannot accept evidence generated INTENTIONALLY by the accused before the fact (China note and Bullet Diary are both such evidence) especially if the accused is believed to have pre-meditated the shooting. Can you show an example of a situation where reloading records were believed over independent forensic testing?

Friendly, Don't Fire!
June 4, 2010, 10:17 PM
230 grain FMJ hardball.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
June 4, 2010, 10:23 PM
I use factory ammo for personal defense in my pistols (200gr Speer Gold Dot). Personally, I do so for a greater guarantee of reliable function. I've never had a handload fail in my reloading career, but I also haven't taken the time to chronograph most of my pistol loads, and I have shot far more factory ammo than I have handloaded ammo over the years.

I'm sure that I'd be fine using handloads if I made a significant effort to do so, but I'd want to be sure that I made those pistol rounds to very exacting specifications (checking velocities over a chrony, primer seating depths, etc). I just don't put all that much effort into pistol loading, as I typically load for plinking or IPSC matches (short range and fast shots). I've also found that the factory defensive loads are of high quality, and function reliably. Plus, the cost difference is only marginally significant, since I don't normally shoot through my defensive loads.

As far as the legal concerns of using handloads, I could see this being a major problem for a police department, or other public safety organization (we face scrutiny on everything, given our role of serving the public). Otherwise, the idea that handloads would be a problem (legally) in a self-defense situation involving a private citizen has always struck me as internet mythology. Simply put, if you pull the trigger on a person, the shoot is going to be judged on the circumstances, not the ammo that you were carrying.

If anyone claims otherwise on the subject of handload legality, I'd love to see some documentation of any court case where the ammo that was used was decided to be the determining factor regarding the legality of a defensive shooting! Simply put, the legality is the least of my concernes when it comes to carrying handloaded ammo for defensive purposes!
I have had more misfires from FACTORY ammo in various calibers over the 25+ years I have reloaded and all that time, I have NEVER had a cartridge fail that I loaded.

I trust my own ammo more than I trust that which is mass-produced.

Fatelvis
June 4, 2010, 10:27 PM
230 grain FMJ hardball.

CTShooter
June 4, 2010, 10:45 PM
I load mine with butterflies, rainbows, and dreams :neener:

danimalw
June 4, 2010, 11:53 PM
With the current political backdrop AND how some judges have been able to legislate from the bench AND how lawyers can pervert facts, I am amazed that anyone trusts the courts and isn't concerned about paying huge legal fees. And don't discount the juries... O.J. was accquitted.

While using reloads in SD/HD should be legal, the lawyers (trying to rack up legal fees or trying to make a name for themselves) WILL pervert anything they can. Just look at all of the ambulance chasers and frivolous lawsuits.

How many members here, as a defendant, would trust the prosecutor with your life? How many trust your life with the plaintiff's lawyer, who is suing you?

Those of us who carry/keep firearms for SD/HD, do so because we can not trust that certain members of society will not refrain from committing crimes and violating our rights. But at the same time, many of us trust lawyers to do the right thing?? Why do you think there are soooooo many lawyer jokes?

If any of us are involved in a SD/HD shooting, and I hope we aren't, why spend more of your hard earned (and too heavily taxed) money possibly defending something that you shouldn't have to worry about. Again, look at the McDonald's case. They got sued for selling a product that's a regular part of their menu. Who would have thought that?

Legal fees aren't exactly refundable. I'd much rather spend that money on more shooting stuff for me instead of paying for an addition on a lawyers vacation house, but hey that's just me.

You could be walking in a crosswalk and get hit by a car and killed. If you're in the crosswalk, you would be in the right, in fact, you'd be dead right. But what does it get you?

As gun owners, we have the media and a large part of the uninformed public against us and we can't forget that.

Ok, I'm done now. Be safe.

Sapper771
June 5, 2010, 01:59 PM
-230gr XTP 6.1gr Unique OAL 1.230".

-230gr XTP 5.2gr Titegroup OAL 1.230".

-185gr XTP 3.8gr Clays OAL 1.230".


Those are a few I found online. I chose the Unique load for my XTPs. I had to tweak the grain amount a bit to get it to shoot POA in my G21SF, but it shoots great and clocks at 820-850fps. I used some Remington +P virgin brass in the load.

I carry either Factory Speer 230gr Gold Dots or Hornady 230gr XTPs in my carry 45s.

EMC45
June 5, 2010, 03:12 PM
There is "Castle Doctrine" in the State of Ga. I says that a criminal who is shot while committing a crime cannot sue, nor can he/she file criminal charges against the shooter. The law also states that if the offender is killed the surviving family cannot take legal or civil action against them. This would negate any handwringing in the court room over handloads vs. factory ammo. I have no qualms about handloads in a SD gun at all. As a matter of fact I am about to load up some 240gr. Remington SJHPs over a stiff charge of Unique for my 44 Special! They will be defense loads BTW! I think my cast 250gr. Lyman 429-421 would not be a good choice for defense....I think that bullet would pass through about 4-5 crackheads at once!

Oceans
June 5, 2010, 07:57 PM
Remington 230 grain Golden Sabers, in a 5 inch Govt. Colt.

altitude_19
June 6, 2010, 01:14 PM
a criminal who is shot while committing a crime cannot sue, nor can he/she file criminal charges against the shooter. The law also states that if the offender is killed the surviving family cannot take legal or civil action against them.
Interesting. Nebraska does not yet have castle doctrine, but IF you do, I can ALMOST see the upside to handloads. Would probably still carry the same inside/outside the home...just for the sake of simplicity.

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