Buying a pistol from a private owner? How do I do it legally?


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101
May 22, 2010, 07:35 PM
Can somebody please help me out? I'm 18 and live in Michigan (the worst state in America) so I cant legally buy a pistol from a gun shop until I'm 21. So that leaves me to one thing, buying a pistol from a private owner. Who is considered a private owner? Pawn shops? None of my relatives own any handguns that I would buy. Who do I go to? And also, where do I go to get it registered for open carry? Is there any other process that I have to go through?

And btw, in case any of you are wondering, I have a perfect record. Not even a single traffic ticket. I'm just saying that to ease peoples minds on this forum.

So any info or step by step process to help me legally buy and register one for open carry would be great, thanks.

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dogtown tom
May 22, 2010, 07:41 PM
I Googled "buying a handgun in michigan" and got this:

http://detroitcpl.blogspot.com/2008/09/how-to-buy-handgun-in-michigan.html

And directly from your state .gov: http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1586_27094-10953--,00.html





.

Sam1911
May 22, 2010, 08:05 PM
Wow. Slow down. Take some time to educate yourself about the laws that affect your gun rights before you dive in.

First off, FEDERAL law says that no Federal Firearms License holder (that's a gun dealer) can sell a firearm to anyone under 18 years of age or sell a handgun to anyone under 21 years of age. (US Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 44, Section 922, (b)(1) )

A private owner is anyone who is not operating a business to sell firearms. A pawn shop that sells firearms is still a licensed dealer. You'll need to find a private citizen who has something you want for sale. That person must be a resident of your state as no person-to-person transfers of a firearm can take place across state lines or the buyer and seller be committing two federal felonies.

Here are what appear to be the relevant portions of the text in dogtown tom's link:

The first step in the handgun buying process - in the state of Michigan - is for the prospective buyer, who is at least eighteen (18) years of age, to acquire a "Ten Day HandGun Purchase Permit" (TDHPP) from the prevailing law enforcement authority (PLEA) where the prospective buyer legally resides.

For example, in the city of Detroit a buyer would apply at Detroit Police Headquarters whereas a buyer residing in a rural area might need to apply at his respective county Sheriff's Office. Buyers who possess a current Michigan Concealed Pistol License (MCPL) are not required to obtain a TDHPP before buying a handgun.

In accordance with state of Michigan law and the local practices of the buyer's PLEA, the prospective buyer may be required to take and pass a short fifteen question True/False exam - the Michigan Basic Pistol Safety Questionaire (MPSQ) - without cost which must be passed with at least a score of seventy percent (70%) correct. Once the buyer has passed the MPSQ, he will be issued a TDHPP which authorizes him to legally purchase a handgun within the next ten days. If the buyer does not buy a handgun within the specified ten day period, he will need to revisit his PLEA and reapply for another TDHPP.

...

At the time of purchase, authorized handgun buyers under the age of twenty-one (21) must present their TDHPP to the private seller. Likewise, authorized handgun buyers, who are at least twenty-one (21) years old, but do not have a current MCPL, and wish to buy a handgun from a private seller, must also submit their TDHPP to the seller.

... both the seller and the buyer must both sign all three sections of ... the TDHPP ... The seller retains one part of the applicable form and gives the remaining two sections of the applicable form to the buyer.

The buyer, in all of the above scenarios, would be wise to receive a sales receipt for his handgun purchase from the seller, to confirm the identity of the seller by checking the seller's state issued identification, to confirm that the seller is the owner of the handgun by checking the seller's Safety Inspection Certificate (SIC) for the handgun in question, and to verify that the serial number on the handgun matches the info on the SIC.

There is no contest that Michigan is not even close to being in the running to be the worst state in the union for gun laws, but this is a pile of hassles no one should have to deal with. Still, it doesn't look too bad. Really just one form and a true-false test. I've seen worse! ;)

101
May 22, 2010, 08:08 PM
Thanks but this still doesn't answer all of my questions. Where can I go to buy a pistol from a private seller? Btw I couldn't understand what they are trying to say on those websites because they abbreviated every damn word, and used code that normal people don't understand. I don't speak lawyer. I speak English.

iibao
May 22, 2010, 08:10 PM
I'm 18 and live in Michigan (the worst state in America) so I cant legally buy a pistol from a gun shop until I'm 21.
Well, that's in every state. :neener:

101
May 22, 2010, 08:16 PM
Sorry my computer is slow, I was replying to the first guys post btw.

rm23
May 22, 2010, 08:19 PM
Michigan has shall issue CCW, open carry, no AWB and NFA stuff. You must be crazy.

101
May 22, 2010, 08:24 PM
I guess Ill just call the Michigan government and hopefully they wont speak lawyer language. Ill ask them how to acquire the following : An MCPL, TDHPP, PLEA, and an MPSQ (Whatever those are) .

101
May 22, 2010, 08:25 PM
This has turned out to be more complex than rocket science.

Sam1911
May 22, 2010, 08:28 PM
Thanks but this still doesn't answer all of my questions. Where can I go to buy a pistol from a private seller?Sorry, I don't know anyone in your state who's selling a pistol.

Seriously...you need to find a private individual who is selling one. Check your local classified ads. Check the online gun auctions for things available near you. See if there's a Michigan shooters' online forum with a BUY/SELL/TRADE page. Heck, look here at THR in our B/S/T section and see if there are any Michigan sellers. Go to a gun show and look for folks walking the aisles with guns for sale. (No, the guys at the tables are most likely dealers and can't help you.)

There are lots of folks on this very board who do almost all of their gun-trading face-to-face. But it isn't as simple a thing as just going to your local gun store and asking them to get you a new whatever-you-want. You'll have to do some leg work and you'll have to be willing to choose from whatever folks happen to be selling.

Btw I couldn't understand what they are trying to say on those websites because they abbreviated every damn word, and used code that normal people don't understand. I don't speak lawyer. I speak English.Seriously? You couldn't figure that out? :scrutiny: To understand firearms law it's pretty important that you practice reading such things. They aren't really all that complicated.

Here's a simplification to get you started:

1) Get your "Ten Day HandGun Purchase Permit" from the Sheriff of your county or your local Police Department.

2) To get that Permit you may have to take the Michigan Basic Pistol Safety Questionaire, which is a 15 question test that doesn't cost you anything. You must get at least 11 questions right.

3) Once you get your purchase purmit you can buy a handgun within the next ten days.

4) If you don't buy a handgun within ten days you'll have to go get another purchase Permit.

5) When you purchase the gun you have to show your Purchase Permit to the seller.

6) Both you and the seller must sign all three sections of the Permit.

7) You keep two of the sections and the seller keeps one of them.

8) You probably aught to get a sales receipt from the seller.

9) You probably aught to check the seller's Driver's License to make sure he's who he says he is.

10) You probably aught to check the seller's "Safety Inspection Certificate" to make sure he is the legal owner of that pistol and can legally sell it to you.

11) You probably aught to check that "Safety Inspection Certificate" to make sure that the serial number on the gun you're buying is the same one as on the Certificate.

Clearer now?

Sam1911
May 22, 2010, 08:35 PM
I've deleted some completely incorrect information about federal laws.

Folks, be careful that you actually understand the law -- and can actually provide legal citations to back up your statements -- before giving legal advice.

iibao
May 22, 2010, 08:41 PM
I thought Sam1911, explained it very clearly in the first post.
What don't you understand ? :confused:

101
May 22, 2010, 08:55 PM
I guess sam1911 explained it with that quote. All I really need is a ten day handgun purchase permit. Then Ill try my luck at local gun shows and try to find local sellers on websites. Thanks.

mnrivrat
May 22, 2010, 09:01 PM
After taking care of your states requirements which basicaly amounts to getting a permit to purchase, even when buying from a private person, you can look in the papers for handguns that are for sale, or more likely, you might try to time your permit to purchase with an upcoming auction that has handguns on it.

Most private sellers don't need to advertise their guns for sale - there is always a willing buyer if the price is reasonable. ( check the boards at the local range) That's why I think the best bet is to starting looking at household. or other auctions selling private firearms in your area.

Ill ask them how to acquire the following : An MCPL, TDHPP, PLEA, and an MPSQ (Whatever those are)

Read post #3 they are spelled out there.

Sam1911
May 22, 2010, 10:02 PM
Wow. This is getting tiresome. I've deleted some more completely incorrect information about federal laws.

FOLKS, before ANYONE posts AGAIN that it is illegal to purchase a handgun before you are 21 ... THAT IS FALSE.

Please read the federal laws -- which I cited for you above -- and your state laws on the matter.

In most states it is perfectly legal for an 18-20 year old to purchase and own a handgun. They simply may not buy one from a Federal Firearms License holder -- a gun dealer, pawn shop, gunsmith, or other company in the business of selling firearms.

Jim K
May 22, 2010, 10:05 PM
I do not live in Michigan, but since there is a ten-day limit on the permit, I don't see how you can get the permit, then depend on finding a seller in ten days.

Wouldn't you first find someone with a gun you want for sale, give him a down payment to hold the gun, and then apply for the ten-day permit? After you get it, you come back and complete the transaction.

Jim

Sam1911
May 22, 2010, 10:11 PM
Jim, thanks. I was going to say something like that. Looks like the permit would be a same-day kind of thing. (Anyone from Michigan want to say whether it is issued right when you pass the test or does it take a few days?)

I'd wait on the permit until I've found a gun that looks promising and spoken to the seller. Then go get the permit. I'd think it would be pretty optimistic to go get a permit to purchase -- betting that you'd find something you like for sale privately in the next 10 days.

I'd anticipate having to spend a month or three (...or six...) searching for something I'd really want.

Sam1911
May 22, 2010, 10:34 PM
101, I'll give you one more piece of advice. Don't expect everyone you meet to be completely on-board with this. As you've probably noticed, even here in this thread on THR of all places, not everyone knows just what the law is and a seller always has the right to refuse to sell to you -- EVEN IF their reason is a misunderstanding of the law.

There are a very few points of law that seem to catch even gun folks by surprise because the law is actually more lenient than what they've been conditioned to expect.

Aside from the fact that 18-20 year olds CAN own handguns, folks often don't know that:
* face-to-face transfers are even legal
* there is no (federal) form or other paperwork required for making a private sale of a firearm
* that 18-year-olds can open-carry a handgun in some states even before they are legally allowed to get a concealed license or permit
* that it is legal to ship a firearm to a private individual (not a dealer) in the same state -- and, in fact, to do a private sale without ever having physically met the buyer
* that (according to federal law at least) you can purchase a long gun in any state in the country
... and a number of other little "pleasant surprises" where firearms law isn't quite so constrictive as we assume.

Unfortunately, just because something is legal doesn't mean that you'll be able to convince a seller, dealer ... and sometimes even a police officer (!) of that fact.

So, if you find the perfect pistol for sale and you contact the seller and explain your situation, don't be too discouraged if you can't convince them that they are allowed to sell to you. In this one case, having to get that purchase permit might actually help. You at least have some documentation that the local authorities have approved you to purchase, so your age must not be an issue.

I hate to find positive sides to bad laws ... but it is what it is! ;)

Wonder9
May 22, 2010, 10:52 PM
Where?

I started going through classifieds of my local newspaper but technology has stepped in.

swapgiant:
http://www.swapgiant.com/-76/posts/50_Sporting_Goods/235_Firearms_and_Accessories_for_Firearms/

armslist:
http://www.armslist.com/classifieds/michigan/guns

Even other sites (gunbroker, gunsamerica, etc.) you can contact sellers and inquire about ftf (face-to-face) transactions.

Art Eatman
May 23, 2010, 10:11 AM
Enough for now...

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