I haven't taken myFive Seven to shoot in a while so I packed up and headed to the range to shoot. I set up, laid the gun with the slide open, and waiting for the cease fire to be over. One of the range officers passed by and made an indirect comment "Thats the gun that moron used at Fort Hood". I blew it off, then a couple that had just showed up walked by and the guy said "Thats the Hassan murderers gun". :scrutiny:
Range is hot I started shooting getting great groups and then over my shoulder there is like 4 dudes watching me shoot. "Man thats the gun that terrorist used at Ft. Hood." :fire: I was getting angry. I told them: "A gun is a gun, anyone of these gun here could be used to kill people, simple as that."
So I go through two more shooting sessions and as I am changing my target during a cease fire and coming back, there are two guys and a young lady looking at the gun. "Thats a bad ass gun, thats the one that killed those people at that Army base." I was so frustrated, I just packed up and left.
After all of this, has any other Five Seven owners been experiencing this? I would like to know. How does it make you feel about the gun? I know initially when people doubted the 5.7x28's lethality, I mentioned what was done at Fort Hood, but now is the Five Seven forever infamous because of that day?
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May 22, 2010, 10:08 PM
I think it's recent and thus at least for a while, will be mentioned.
Ballistically, I'm not impressed by the 5.7x28mm, especially out of a short handgun barrel. And honestly, the shooter at Ft. Hood could have gotten similar results from spraying the crowd with a high point in .380 or a raven .32acp.
If other people's comments are going to bother you that much, put it away for a couple months. Otherwise, enjoy your low recoil and large magazine capacity.
May 22, 2010, 10:36 PM
The FiveseveN has been getting bad and mostly misleading press ever since its inception. Every news reporter likes to talk about its armor piercing capabilities when it only has AP potential when the illegal to sell to civilians AP rounds are used.
Ft Hood did not help matters at all unless you were a FiveseveN salesman. They immediately went from turd status at gunstores to the most sought after pistol. I could not sell them for below cost but then after hood I could sell them for a hundred over MSRP.
It is disturbing that so many at your range seem to be under the impression that guns commit horrible acts of their own accord or that just because some wacko decided that was the gun he was going to use to do a terrible thing. As gun owners they should know that is not how it works but who really knows with all the new jack gun owners these days who do not make use of fine resources like THR and instead continue on in their ignorance but this time they have a gun so they think it is OK.
May 22, 2010, 10:46 PM
The fact that your in TX probably has a little to do with it. It's just kind of close to home for a lot people there I would imagine, at other places you probably want get that response as often. Honestly I don't think the Five Seven will be infamous no matter who does what with it.
Just an ever-on-going case of "the bad gun killed the people" mindset, even at the range..
You tried to correct their thinking and you see, first hand, the uphill battle gun rights/owners are in and will be in, for some time to come.
Bad guns kill people, (bad people use guns to kill people) drive drunk and kill people, but everyone understands that it's not the cars fault.. cept maybe Toyota
May 22, 2010, 11:55 PM
It is a mostly unknown gun so I am not surprised since it one famous point of reference for most people was such a well know and infamous incident it attracts attention. As you could tell that was those folks first times seeing one in person at the range, sad that they automatically reference the gun to that incident.
The 5.7x28mm is ballistically well ahead of both the .380ACP and .32ACP, comparing the FN Five seveN to a Hi-Point or Raven is silly and shows a lack of understanding of the subject matter. The mis-information about the Five seveN and it's caliber on the internet remains widespread.
May 23, 2010, 12:05 AM
I'm not comparing 5.7x28mm to .380 or .32 ACP. I'm saying that the end result (a fair number of innocent victims murdered or wounded) would not have changed if he had fired the same number of rounds from either of those guns into the same places.
Misinformation or not, a .223 short is hardly an inspiring round, especially when it's shot out of a handgun barrel.
Brassfetcher has that round doing less than 2000 feet a second, penetrating 9 inches and opening to a mighty .312
9 inches of penetration and .312?
Actually, calling it an overhyped .32 ACP might not be a bad comparison.
May 23, 2010, 12:47 AM
According to the reports, the vast majority of the wounds were very low on the victims. Below the waistline low, in most cases. Either Haji was shooting from the hip, or he was deliberately shooting to cause pain and suffering rather than death. If he'd been shooting CoM the outcome would have been different, as well.
Which flavor did brasscatcher check? Reports have indicated that recent SS195 is very weak, as in barely cycle the action weak.
May 23, 2010, 01:07 AM
If I am ever attacked by ballistic gel or wet phone books I will be sure to defend myself with something other than 5.7x28mm, otherwise it's performance in the real world would seem to suggest it was very effective.
May 23, 2010, 01:41 AM
They used SS195 and SS197, the SS197 got to 10 inches and was the one that expanded to .312. I've no idea when brassfetcher did their testing but they're usually very thorough and both rounds gave similar velocities.
Below the waist could also indicate a poor grip, unfamiliarity with the gun (many people seem to shoot off vertically when transitioning from a very angled grip like a glock to a more upright grip such as a 1911), or any of the reasons you mentioned. Also, waist level shots, while not a CNS hit, certainly have a high chance for eventual death, considering how much blood flow is through the pelvic region and the chance for sepsis.
In response to Ruggles:
Real world performance seems to indicate that most rounds over .22 CB caps have the potential to kill or seriously wound with proper placement. Also, most real world uses of the 5.7mm are not 1 round, but rather many shots in rapid succession. I know of very little evidence that this round provides a 1 stop hit with any degree of certainty.
I would be comfortable with a pocket pistol in .32 ACP with 7 or 8 rounds if the weather/clothing dictated it, I imagine a 20 round pistol would certainly make up for lack of individual stopping power with quantity.
I am not disparaging the 5.7x28 round, only asking that it be recognized for what it is, not what it purports to be. 5.56mm rounds seem to have a real lack of stopping power due to a lack of upset/fragmentation below 3000 fps.
If you don't get the upset/cavitation/fragmentation out of a small caliber round, it really does not do any better than a .32 H&R Magnum and only slightly better than a .32 ACP. Out of all the .22 caliber rounds in a handgun I will say it appears to be the best choice for self defense. :D
May 23, 2010, 01:45 AM
While I am not impressed with its ballistics or the two I have seen in action have keyholed and double fed, I always push my acquiantances buttons with the advertisment in the gun rags...
The ladies home companion.
Whenever they see that they get all worked up, it makes me giggle.
May 23, 2010, 01:46 AM
Strange, I would think that a poor feeding situation would be the least of this gun's worries, bottlenecks usually are pretty reliable.
May 23, 2010, 02:09 AM
it's performance in the real world would seem to suggest it was very effective.
The agencies that have adopted it, and had occasion to use it, would disagree with you.
May 23, 2010, 02:42 AM
I have long been JONESING for a PS90 (or heck, an FN P90).
I don't know.... for some reason I felt compelled to share that.
EdLaver, I understand your frustration; I would be annoyed to hear people voicing their opinions aloud of a firearm I'm using. I guess that's what you'll get for having a "controversial" firearm. I remember when spending some time with my G19 at a public range a couple days after the Virginia Tech shooting, some recognized my model Glock as "that model that killed all them kids in Virginia". I really wanted to clap and tell them they "won the prize!" but figured what they were doing was simply human nature.
Once the connection between your FN and the Fort Hood shooting dims, you'll still always have "that gun designed to defeat body armor", sorry to say. There will always be those whose filters between their minds and mouths malfunction.
May 23, 2010, 02:57 AM
You should have asked anyone who made that comment if they had a Glock 19. I bet out of all those people who asked, at least 1 or 2 would, and that was one of the guns was used in the Virginia Tech shootings, where almost 3x as many people were murdered.
Or, if any of them owned AR's which was what the DC sniper used.
May 23, 2010, 03:02 AM
How many people are killed by AK-47s? Not only here, but our troops overseas? I've never been at the range where there's been an AK and people walking around going "That's the gun terrorists use." or "That's the gun gang members use." Some people are just stupid. I've never heard of anything like that in the gun culture around here. Maybe I'm lucky or maybe gunners here are smarter?
May 23, 2010, 04:19 AM
It's ironic in that the 1911 and 1911-type handguns have undoubtedly been responsible for millions of deaths worldwide, yet people would not even dream of saying anything bad about them in that regard.
I think that the Five-seveN started out with a bad reputation from the gun-control crowd, and that reputation was solidified (for better or worse) by the events at Fort Hood. As you said, it could have been any weapon that the guy used, but unfortunately it was this one.
You can either accept that this particular weapon will for some time be at the forefront of peoples' minds or you can put it away or get rid of it. There's really nothing else you can do unless you think that engaging in argument and possibly alienating people (who, to be fair, have already unknowingly pissed you off) is the right thing to do.
May 23, 2010, 04:34 AM
If people at the range were saying things like that then I would have to imagine that they were all people just renting a gun for an hour or so and not actually gun owners. People who watch the news and want to feel empowered by firing a weapon without actually appreciating the right they are excersizing.
May 23, 2010, 07:36 AM
People at rental ranges are generally amusing, in a harmless way. The serious shooters tend to gravitate to places they can shoot whenever they like without hourly fees and asshat rangemasters.
But ... That's a bad ass gun, that's the one that killed those people at that Army base is beyond stupid, attributing actions to tools is a sign of a serious disconnect from reality, and should be slapped down as rudely as possible to jar the speaker back into the real world.
May 23, 2010, 12:34 PM
I have been in to many debates regarding the 5.7x28mm to keep going in yet one more. I guess we all have our difference levels of evidence we require to put our faith in something, rather it be firearms or something else. If you would equate the ballistic and terminal performance of the Five seveN with a Walther PP in either .32 or .380 then I guess you have not.
May 23, 2010, 01:37 PM
One lesson I have learned for sure is that from now on I will take that hour and a half drive out to my property to shoot peacefully. Only reason I go to local ranges is because of convenience.
May 23, 2010, 01:58 PM
that's why I shoot at a member's only range. No range masters with stupid remarks and interjections about things that don't concern them.
You yourself understand that it's not the gun that's "evil", it's the person who holds it and does evil with the gun. That's all that matters anyway.
May 23, 2010, 04:11 PM
"Thats a bad ass gun, thats the one that killed those people at that Army base." Many of those who were wounded didn't know they'd been shot.
43 people were shot with 5.7x28mm in the Ft. Hood shooting. 13 victims incurred fatal injury when the bullet(s) directly damaged vital tissues; 30 were wounded. 11 died at the scene, 2 died at the hospital. The percentage killed (30%) is virtually identical to the percentage of those who are killed when deliberately shot with a common handgun cartridge.
If I am ever attacked by ballistic gel or wet phone books I will be sure to defend myself with something other than 5.7x28mm, otherwise it's performance in the real world would seem to suggest it was very effective. Jacksonville (FL) Sheriff's Office has used 5.7x28mm in several officer involved shootings and no longer uses it because of its poor "real world" performance. JSO is but one of many agencies to stop using 5.7x28 due to poor "real world" performance. The poor "real world" performance was predicted by gelatin tests. Those agencies that chose to ignore gelatin test results soon realized their error.
May 24, 2010, 12:01 AM
I have the 5.7/28 pistol and I really like it. I would trust it in a self defense situation because firing followup shots is so easy and therefore more likely for me to hit my target multiple times. They are sweet, reliable shooters.
May 24, 2010, 12:29 AM
As the russians say, quantity has a quality of it's own.
At least it provides a .22 caliber handgun that consistently expands.
May 24, 2010, 12:54 AM
I discovered that a .22 magnum round (40 grain FMJ) will penetrate an average of 6 inches into seasoned 12 x 12 blocks of Douglas Fir. These were shot out of a 6 inch barrel revolver at a distance of 20 feet. I thought the objective of military small arms was not necessarily to kill but incapacitate a combatant and require others to then attempt to offer help/rescue and also so to speak take them out of the fight while giving aid. I do not want to be hit with any of these rounds. It is not a good assumption to believe that all who shoot are on the same page with issues regarding safety, morals, or even political beliefs. As far as range officers go if you find there presence aggravating I will ask you "What are you doing wrong or thinking of doing?" I have seen once a year hunters and even so called experienced competition shooters do dangerous things. Dont assume your immune. Do it right in drill and you ll do it right and safe on the range.
May 24, 2010, 01:34 AM
If you can get this kind of grouping with the 5.7x28, trust me, its lethal. Thats not my pic but I can do the same grouping with a Five Seven @ 25 yards on in. I would trust it in a defense purpose. Its all about shot placement.
May 24, 2010, 07:43 AM
a .22 magnum round (40 grain FMJ) will penetrate an average of 6 inches into seasoned 12 x 12 blocks of Douglas Fir. These were shot out of a 6 inch barrel revolver1 - not even close to a measurement of damage in flesh
2 - .22mag is a rifle round, you lose a LOT of velocity in a handgun
I thought the objective of military small arms was not necessarily to kill but incapacitate a combatantmyth, possibly spread within the military to spare raw recruits an existential crisis
As far as range officers goignorant commentary on hardware is NOT a safety reminder
May 24, 2010, 09:40 AM
i was at a gun store and was looking at a five seven when a customer mentioned to me "that's the gun the fort hood shooter used to kill soldiers." i knodded my head and pointed to a bushmaster on the wall and said " the d.c. sniper used one of those.", i then pointed to an ak and said that :the viet cong used those to kill soldiers too, and i bet every make of gun in this store has been used to kill someone." you can't attatch emotion or intent to an inanimate object.
May 24, 2010, 10:17 AM
People like to show you they are smart. So instead of saying "hey doesn't that gun pierces body armor" they now say "hey is n't that the Fort Hood gun".
Join a private range.
May 24, 2010, 10:24 AM
I have the 5.7/28 pistol and I really like it. I would trust it in a self defense situation because firing followup shots is so easy and therefore more likely for me to hit my target multiple times. JSO's experience with 5.7x28mm involved the FN P90 PDW. In one incident a deputy crawled on the hood of a car and fired through the windshield at a suspect inside, landing multiple hits. The entire time the suspect was reportedly screaming "Stop shooting me! Stop shooting me!" He wasn't incapacitated by the hits and survived his wounds. After several shootings in which 5.7 failed JSO SWAT dumped it.
LAPD SWAT tried 5.7 and dumped it. Miami PD SWAT tried 5.7 and dumped it.
May 24, 2010, 10:40 AM
Is anyone really surprised by this?
If you had a Luger and people started making comments like "Thats the gun the nazis used" would you be upset?
Or, a Carcano 38 and people start remembering Lee Harvey Oswold.
Sheesh. Guns have a history. The history of this gun is .... in general poor.
Bad rap from the antis. Bad rap as far as being nuetered for the public use. Bad rap for being <debatably> useless. Bad rap for Ft. Hood. Bad rap for being REALLY expensive to both purchase and shoot.
Dunno, my take on this is "yeah thats probably what I would expect."
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