Kahr Extra Steps to Load???


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Carbonator
May 23, 2010, 10:55 PM
I stumbled upon a Youtube video of a reviewer stating that a Kahr magazine must be inserted AFTER racking the slide back to chamber a round.

For instance to chamber the first round:
Glock: rack slide, shoot
Kahr: remove mag (if inserted), lock slide back, insert mag, release slide, shoot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPa3MtWkias

Apparently the Kahr instructions state that you need to chamber the gun as above. This would involve some extra steps in a self defense reload/clearing a jam situation, and practically removes the ability to carry unchambered if I chose that method of carry for whatever reason. I have never shot a Kahr, and I have never heard of this issue which I find odd that I have never heard of it. This would be a definite deal breaker as I was considering a Kahr for concealed carry. In fact I don't understand why anyone would want a gun with these limitations and I feel that I must be mistaken or maybe I am missing something?

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DeepSouth
May 23, 2010, 11:32 PM
They just want you to chamber the first round by releasing the slide using the slide release rather than pulling the slide back and releasing it by hand. In the owners manual it says this is to insure it goes fully into battery, I have done it "improper" many times and never had trouble.

gb6491
May 23, 2010, 11:46 PM
They just want you to chamber the first round by releasing the slide using the slide release rather than pulling the slide back and releasing it by hand. In the owners manual it says this is to insure it goes fully into battery, I have done it "improper" many times and never had trouble.
Yep, that's it.:scrutiny:
The current Kahr manual states:
"Insert the magazine into the magazine well at the base of
the grip until the magazine catch engages fully.
Pull the slide fully to the rear and lock it back using the slide stop. Next push down on the slide stop to chamber the first round into the barrel. Do not chamber a round by pulling back on the slide and letting go of the slide. This may cause the slide to not go fully into battery."

The old manual read:
"...
Pull the slide fully to the rear and allow it to spring forward into the locked position. Do not impede the forward travel of the slide or attempt to ease the slide forward. The full spring tension of the recoil spring is required to
assure proper feeding of the round from the magazine."

It's been my experience that either procedure is perfectly adequate to chamber rounds in my CW45.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45CfcRIlDto

Regards,
Greg

lions
May 24, 2010, 12:31 AM
Yep, and yep.

The thing is, these pistols can be pretty tight and the slides can be tough to get all the way back. Apparently enough people had problems properly working the slide that Kahr decided to reword the manual.

I chamber a round in my Kahr just like I do with every other pistol I own, it really isn't a problem.

TEXMEX
May 24, 2010, 02:10 AM
Well I'll be darned, learned something new!

71Commander
May 24, 2010, 08:12 AM
I've owned a K9 and PM9. I currently own a PM40 and P380. The P380 will not load from the slingshot action, only from a locked slide release. The other three needed no special action.

Sapper771
May 24, 2010, 08:14 AM
I didn't know that either. I too load my Kahr the same as I do my other pistols, no problems at all.

kokapelli
May 24, 2010, 09:32 AM
I use the conventional slingshot method on both my K9 and PM9 and have never had a problem with either.

Guns and more
May 24, 2010, 10:35 AM
The recoil spring of a Kahr is so stiff that the slingshot method can lead to limp wristing.
Now, the slide locks back on the last round, so you insert a full magazine and press the slide release.
It sounds like the video is referring to inserting a full magazine on the Kahr while the slide is forward. Then yes, click the mag release, lock the slide back manually, and insert full magazine. Or slingshot it and take your chances.

9mmepiphany
May 24, 2010, 12:25 PM
posted by Guns and more
The recoil spring of a Kahr is so stiff that the slingshot method can lead to limp wristing.

this is the genesis of the instruction to load from slide lock. if you rack the slide correctly this won't happen, but enough folks were limp wristing it that they covered themselves by recommending chambering rounds from slide lock...it becomes more of a problem as the butt gets short and less of a problem after the recommended 200 round break-in period.

i watched the video and the guy had some credibility until he recommended the use of ProMags to improve reliability

i'd be more concerned about why you would carry a gun for SD that you don't feel comfortable enough with to carry in it's designed readiness state

G27RR
May 24, 2010, 03:15 PM
PM9 and CW9 here, and both work fine with the slingshot method.

The Lone Haranguer
May 24, 2010, 07:34 PM
Kahr does recommend that you chamber a round by inserting a magazine into the gun with its slide locked back, then using the slide stop to release the slide. This is to take human error in racking the slide out of the equation. With such small slides it is easy to not pull them back sharply enough or "ride" them forward with your hand. I've never had a problem with the conventional method myself, though.

Shawn Dodson
May 24, 2010, 08:40 PM
I used to encounter a problem with the slide going into battery with my PM9 when chambering the first round of a fully charged magazine but it seems to have gone away. I have zero problems when I retract and release the slide whether it's locked open or in battery.

I forcibly retract the slide, as if I'm trying to rip the slide off the frame, and let it slip from my grasp when it reaches its rearmost travel.

I've always loaded the chamber by retracting and releasing the slide of my PM9, regardless of the Kahr manual's instruction. I simply added an extra step of always applying a palm strike to the rear of the slide to drive it into battery just in case it failed to do so. I no longer have to do that. I reckon my pistol is now broken in.

I shoot Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P.

The Kahr manual's recommendation to chamber the first cartridge by releasing the slide lock on an open slide is an inexpensive documentation fix to an design flaw. While this "fix" may be just fine and dandy on the shooting range it's fatally flawed advice for operating a combat pistol.

I use the tasks of loading and unloading as a training opportunity to exercise the motions I have to perform to clear stoppages. I don't operate the slide lock for any reason other than to lock the slide open. IMO loading and unloading are the foundation of combative manipulation skills. I grasp and operate the slide using the overhand method as opposed to the slingshot method.

usp9
May 25, 2010, 06:51 AM
The Kahr manual's recommendation to chamber the first cartridge by releasing the slide lock on an open slide is an inexpensive documentation fix to an design flaw. While this "fix" may be just fine and dandy on the shooting range it's fatally flawed advice for operating a combat pistol.

I agree with the first thing said here, in that the manual's method cuts down on annoying call to Kahr, but to call any Kahr a "combat" pistol stretches the intended use a bit. Kahrs are dedicated carry guns made to be small, thin and light.

The slide on most pistols will retract beyond the point at which the slide release catches the slide, giving the gun some "slop" area to ride until let go. Kahrs have no slop area, due to the desire keep the gun as small as possible.

Is that a design flaw or are the Kahr mechanical operations simply designed with little or no redundancy built in? Miniaturization comes at a cost. This is why it's hard to make really good little guns...there's no room or weight allotted to "slop".

WhippingBoy
May 25, 2010, 08:45 AM
My CW9 has this problem. Slingshot drives the bullet into the feed ramp and it doesn't chamber, it just sticks there. I think the flaw is in the magazine's follower; it doesn't keep the cartridge angled up properly. In fact, with a full mag the ammo at the top lies down and isn't pressed up against the feed lips. I suspect the front of the follower is depressed and doesn't keep the ammo at the right angle. I've messed with the spring, but nothing I've tried has worked.

Anyhow, giving the mag a good smack from the bottom is enough to dislodge the stuck round and send the gun into battery. It's not optimal and given the money I'd switch to a Springfield EMP. Anyone care to donate to my EMP Fund? Please, think of the Children!

kokapelli
May 25, 2010, 09:21 AM
My CW9 has this problem. Slingshot drives the bullet into the feed ramp and it doesn't chamber, it just sticks there. I think the flaw is in the magazine's follower; it doesn't keep the cartridge angled up properly. In fact, with a full mag the ammo at the top lies down and isn't pressed up against the feed lips. I suspect the front of the follower is depressed and doesn't keep the ammo at the right angle. I've messed with the spring, but nothing I've tried has worked.

Anyhow, giving the mag a good smack from the bottom is enough to dislodge the stuck round and send the gun into battery. It's not optimal and given the money I'd switch to a Springfield EMP. Anyone care to donate to my EMP Fund? Please, think of the Children!
I'd be glad to give your Kahr a place to live if you don't want it anymore.

usp9
May 25, 2010, 10:30 AM
My CW9 has this problem. Slingshot drives the bullet into the feed ramp and it doesn't chamber, it just sticks there.

That is occuring because you are riding the slide. As described by another contributor on another forum...

"You need to "energetically" slingshot the slide ... be firm and slingshot with commitment and you will be OK."

He put it as well as can be said.

WhippingBoy
May 25, 2010, 02:11 PM
Yeah, well, if I'm in the wrong situation I don't think I want to worry about whether I'm committed to my slide energetically enough.

Anyway, it's my wife's gun and she isn't enthusiastic about practice to begin with. She'd be better served by a machine that chambers a round because the slide clears the mag, not because she had 'enough' commitment.

bdb benzino
May 25, 2010, 02:21 PM
Yeah, well, if I'm in the wrong situation I don't think I want to worry about whether I'm committed to my slide energetically enough.
If your in the wrong situation hopefully the chamber is loaded so you wont have to worry about it!!

lions
May 25, 2010, 02:46 PM
My CW9 has this problem. Slingshot drives the bullet into the feed ramp and it doesn't chamber, it just sticks there.

The CW9s ramp is at a very steep angle but I have never had a round get hung up on it. What ammunition are you using when this happens? Does it have a large meplat?

I know what you mean about the top cartridge in the magazine not always being in contact with the feed lips. However, from my observations, when the slides rides backwards over the cartridge, the cartridge is moved to the proper angle if it was not already. The only time it is still at the wrong angle while being chambered is when reloading from slide lock. In that case, the slide already possesses the potential energy to properly chamber the round regardless of its orientation, perfect or otherwise, all you have to do is manipulate the slide lock or retract the slide far enough to disengage the slide lock and not ride the slide home.

Yeah, well, if I'm in the wrong situation I don't think I want to worry about whether I'm committed to my slide energetically enough.

bdb benzino took the words out of my mouth.

9mmepiphany
May 25, 2010, 07:27 PM
posted by WhippingBoy
It's not optimal and given the money I'd switch to a Springfield EMP.
I don't think I want to worry about whether I'm committed to my slide energetically enough

i have both and they really fill different niches
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n79/9mmepiphany/DSC_1646.jpg

but being optimal or committed have very little to do with not running the gun the way it was designed to run. if you can't hold the gun still, or pushing it forward, while racking the slide or stop yourself from riding the slide forward...i don't think you can really blame the gun

9mmepiphany
May 26, 2010, 01:43 AM
it is indeed the CW-9. it replaced my S&W 642 as my ED carry, i really loved it's thinness compared to the EMP...but that's to be expected with a polymer frame

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n79/9mmepiphany/DSC_1662.jpg

i also loved the smooth and light DA trigger pull, but that long reset took a while to get used to. i had the edges taken off the slide and slide stop when i had the trigger cleaned up

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