.40 ammo question.


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DasFriek
May 24, 2010, 12:58 AM
Just bought the XD SC .40 with 3" barrel.
But i think my carry ammo may be wrong after i think about it.
I bought Hornady TAP 180gr.
And later picked up some Federal HST 135gr from WallyWorld real cheap and ive been reading a few ammo threads and i got to thinking about my situation.

In my mind the highest grains is always the best even tho its slower as it will most likley still over penetrate. So i go for the biggest hole.

Anyhow thats all fine and good out of my 1911 with a 5" barrel. The ammo will reach its max velocity. But in a 3" barrel the higher the grain it will go even slower than normal. Usually 200fps with a 2" length difference.

My 180gr Tap is 950fps in a 4" barrel.
http://www.hornady.com/store/40-SW-180-gr-HP-XTP-FPD/
Im guessing if im lucky im getting 850fps which is in the realm of really bad.

Of course i cant find the ballistics for 135gr HST since im thinking is a disco'd item threw Federal.
155gr HST 1160 in a 4" barrel.
http://le.atk.com/ballistics/Ammo_Ballistics.aspx?id=567&firearm=2&bc=0.13&muzzvel=1160&bulletwgt=155

Now by guesstimating a 135gr bullet in a 4" is possibly 1270fps, Then drop 100fps for the 1" shorter barrel and in my gun that would be 1170fps.

So 1170fps 135gr versus 180gr at 850fps.
My bet is on the 135gr ammo.
Should i put that HST 135gr in my gun now and swap out that TAP? I know i really have my doubts about carrying it now.

Now i don't feel thats the best, I think 155/165gr at 1050fps is most acceptable.

SO, In a week when i buy more ammo should i buy the 155gr/165gr or keep one that i have?

Also looking at Double Taps site, What is a Nosler bullet. I know its a type and usually lite but what is its claim to fame?

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REAPER4206969
May 24, 2010, 01:12 AM
Get some 165gr. if it makes you feel better. The FBI uses 180gr. in their PO Glock 27's. I wouldn't carry 135gr.

REAPER4206969
May 24, 2010, 01:15 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niQQYyVTeEk

Ky Larry
May 24, 2010, 01:18 AM
I carry 155gr Win SilverTips in my CZ-75B. 155gr seems a good compromise between weight and velocity.

DasFriek
May 24, 2010, 01:31 AM
Interesting video, But thats definitely not what i expected.
Even Double tap crono'd speeds show a 100fps loss with just 1" of barrel difference.

.40 S&W 150gr Nosler JHP 50rds. $38.95
A great carry load for personal protection in 40S&W.
1218fps 496 ft/lbs from a 3.5"bbl.
1317fps 580 ft/lbs from a 4.5"bbl.
Caliber : .40 S&W
Bullet : 150gr. Nosler JHP
Ballistics : 150gr. @ 1275fps / 542 ft/lbs- Glock 23 (4.0"bbl)

I see a discrepancy in both of these 2 comparison's between what i quoted and what the video states.

I think a 155gr/165gr is what i may go with unless im proven something different.

But from what ive said about what ammo i have which would you carry? 135gr or 180gr? Ill buy new ammo in a week when i get paid.

I carry 155gr Win SilverTips in my CZ-75B. 155gr seems a good compromise between weight and velocity.
That i agree with, Id even go 165gr if the load is hotter.

REAPER4206969
May 24, 2010, 01:48 AM
But from what ive said about what ammo i have which would you carry? 135gr or 180gr?
180gr., no question. That's what I would, and do, carry no matter what.

DasFriek
May 24, 2010, 02:22 AM
180gr., no question. That's what I would, and do, carry no matter what.

But dont you question the discrepancies in the video and the posted ammo speeds from DT? I just quoted DT's info as it was easy to find, But most other info backs it up.
Nothing ive ever seen backs that video up. Im sure it happened, Things happen all the time we cant explain away. But the normal fact is 100fps loss for every 1" of barrel on average as all loads differ.

Don't get me wrong i love the heaviest bullet i can get in most cases, But if its too slow its infective. And if im correct 850fps in a .40 bullet is too slow and ineffective.
Thats even too slow in a .45acp.

BTW, what gun you carry those in Reaper?

David E
May 24, 2010, 02:44 AM
And if im correct 850fps in a .40 bullet is too slow and ineffective.
Thats even too slow in a .45acp.

And you base this on what, exactly?

The .45 acp with a 230 grain bullet was designed to go about 850 fps (820 if I remember right) Most folks would agree the .45 acp is an effective caliber/load.

If you want bullet upset, typically, you need to get the bullet going faster. This is usually acheived with a lighter bullet.

Some time ago, I tested 185 and 230 grain JHP's fired from my 3.5" barreled gun. I was surprised that the best performing load was the Golden Sabre 230 grain. Guess what I carry today?

If you don't have a chrono, buy one! then you can see how fast the bullets go out of your gun(s)

REAPER4206969
May 24, 2010, 02:50 AM
But the normal fact is 100fps loss for every 1" of barrel on average as all loads differ.

No way are you losing 100FPS per inch. The pistols in that video are a 6" Glock 24 and a 3.46" 27. I've always been skeptical of DoubleTap's advertised specs.

BTW, what gun you carry those in Reaper?
4.02" Glock 23.

David E
May 24, 2010, 03:00 AM
But the normal fact is 100fps loss for every 1" of barrel on average as all loads differ.

This is why you need to get a chrono. You don't have to take velocity "gospel" at face value, you can test it out for yourself !!

s

TEXMEX
May 24, 2010, 03:01 AM
The .40 was originally designed for 180gr bullets. However, the Border Patrol years ago did an ammo study and determined that the 155gr full-power JHP was a better man-stopper. I suspect that applies even more so to short barrel .40's.

DasFriek
May 24, 2010, 03:11 AM
Dude i spend too much on guns as it is to justify a crono, Would be nice tho especially for my .22lr shooting for consistency.

I do admit even my Hornady Tap 230gr +P is 950fps in a 5" 1911.
Same as my CorBon 230gr +p is 950fps.

I do see your points better now.
I think i will later go too 155/165 gr HST when i get paid. Even tho i like large bullets but i like speed also and prefer a tad better balance.

REAPER4206969
May 24, 2010, 03:11 AM
However, the Border Patrol years ago did an ammo study and determined that the 155gr full-power JHP was a better man-stopper.
If it ain't the FBI, I'm not interested.

DasFriek
May 24, 2010, 03:15 AM
If it ain't the FBI, I'm not interested.

Yes, But neither carry subcompacts. Most likley they use 5" service weapons and in that case i know 180gr would be best.

Ive heard overwhelming opinions on the 135gr HST's being too lite and most likley why Federal is dumping them.

David E
May 24, 2010, 03:20 AM
Dude i spend too much on guns as it is to justify a crono,

Dude, chrono's start at $100 or less.

If you don't buy one, you'll always be guessing how fast this or that bullet is going from this or that gun.

(I learned that one of two "identical" guns shoots about 50 fps slower than the other one. I find that good to know.)

mljdeckard
May 24, 2010, 03:44 AM
I think you're WAY overthinking this.

Eliminate the term 'overpenetration' from your lexicon. There is only penetration, and you want all you can get.

A 230 gr .45 at 850-875 FPS is probably the singlemost proven round in history. But this isn't what you're trying to do. The .40 isn't 'big. slow, and heavy'. It is loaded hotter, and designed for maximum penetration. The very small bullets, like 135s, are designed for very short barreled pistols. I THINK, this is why you use a full-sized gun to begin with, so you don't have to worry about losing velocity in a shorter barrel.

Just find some 155-165s and call it good. Use the rest for practice.

REAPER4206969
May 24, 2010, 04:28 AM
Yes, But neither carry subcompacts. Most likley they use 5" service weapons and in that case i know 180gr would be best.
The FBI issues Glock 22's and 23's and allows agents to purchase their own 27's for carry with issue ammo (Winchester Bonded PDX1 180gr.)

easyg
May 24, 2010, 12:58 PM
Some folks like heavy bullets and some folks like light bullets....

The 230g .45ACP has enjoyed a fantastic reputation as a fight stopper despite its relatively slow speed.
But the 125g .357 magnum has enjoyed an equally fantastic reputation despite its relatively light weight.
And the 125g .357Sig has been doing just fine from all accounts that I have heard of or read about.

I generally prefer 155g bullets in my G27 but I think that the 135g ones should perform just fine too.

CDW4ME
May 25, 2010, 07:23 AM
I chronographed some 40 ammo in my Kahr PM40 couple of days ago.
Remington 180 JHP (green box) 945 fps
Remington 165 GS 995 fps
Gold Dot 155 HP 1,101

I also chronographed some Winchester white box 180 JHP I bought at Wal-Mart and I had trouble with the case mouths getting deformed, severly dented, and jamming the pistol. The pistol works fine with the other ammo, so I'm thinking the Winchester load had longer cases or some other problem. This load was averaging about 960 fps out of the Kahr.

I was impressed with the velocity of the 180 gr. loads, I am obtaining very close to the original intended ballictics for the 180 gr. bullet from a short barrel.

bobehud
May 25, 2010, 08:37 AM
I have the SA-XD in the service length barrel 4in and carry the 135grn.I have to like the HST bullet the Federal that Wally World from all i have read are an outstanding round.I carry Mikes 135 grn from DoubleTap in my G29 and it cooks.
Penetration very important for cross sectional that go thru an arm and chest first before reaching important organs but even at that the 135 grn has 12in of penetration.More than enough and the low recoil impulse allows you to get back on the target very very quickly.
That being said in my second and third clip i carry for my 10mm i have XTP 200grn. I figure if i went thru a clip and there is still a problem i going to have to shot thru a car door or such.Yep i over think things..lol

Lonestar49
May 25, 2010, 12:32 PM
...

Keep, and go with, the 165gr, as it is fun to shoot, accurate, and comes in both flavors for range FMJ and HD/SD JHP's and there will be no surprises (changes) whenever you shoot your 40cal.

It will all remain in muscle memory..


Ls

DasFriek
May 25, 2010, 12:37 PM
Thanks for all the replies as it gives me more to think about, Admittingly im a .45acp guy.
picking a round for that is easy, 230gr and your done. 200gr in smaller 4" and 185gr in the 3" barrels. At least that was always my thinking.

I went to Walmart yesterday and picked up some PDX1 165gr listed at 1140fps with no barrel size stated, But id guess 4" as most test a .40 in that length from what Ive seen.
The PDX1 is a more reliable expanding round from what Ive read.
Not much info on the Tap's expansion reliability that Ive seen, But Ive told its more of a penetrator round.

Comparing Double Tapds 10mm loads too commercial .40 loads really isnt fair.
Ive shot his 10mm loads in 180gr and 200gr and the 200gr should make the .40 caliber bullet even more effective than a 230gr .45acp commercial load.

Anyhow i now have my choice of 135gr,165gr, and 180gr, .40 SP ammo and if at anytime my opnion changes i dont need to go out and buy new ammo.

But for now im loaded with PDX1 165gr 9+1 in the gun and 12 in the spare mag i carry. I know i don't feel under gunned when i cant carry my 1911 due to summer weather.

22-rimfire
May 25, 2010, 12:59 PM
It is not something I sweat as I have never had to use a gun for my self defense. That said, I do not use FMJ ammo. I believe just about any commercially manufactured HP ammo is just fine for self defense purposes and I would choose the load that is closest to having the holes at your point of aim.

Bigger weight grain does not give bigger holes. Mushrooming loads make larger "holes" after excpansion occurs. Choose the one that hits the best for you regardless of the brand in a HP. The higher velocity load should expand better.

gofastman
May 25, 2010, 01:03 PM
I'm a big fan of doubletap's loads, they're loaded hot and they kick harder than others but here are the results from that kick:

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"

That 180gr gold dot looks awesome to me!

Eliminate the term 'overpenetration' from your lexicon. There is only penetration, and you want all you can get.
I couldn't agree more with this.

This is worth reading too:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#PISTOL AMMUNITION

DasFriek
May 25, 2010, 11:44 PM
22-rimfire, That was part of my concern with the 180gr TAP as its slow and not the best at expansion. Good at penetration tho. And being so slow out of an even shorter barrel than the stated "950fps w/4" barrel" im really concerned its a 50/50 chance it wouldn't expand at all.

I don't give a hoot about over penetration, I care about grains and expansion and i prefer it to come out the other side at 2x its normal size and making a really big hole. Kinda why ive been a 10mm fan for a long time now. Just the cost is my only hang up. But for carry, The cost isnt bad even when you practice a few times a year with it. Just no fun time at the range, Its all business with that round due to costs unless you reload.

Ive always like DT's loads since i had my G20, Home security with 17+1 of 200gr loads as i had a +2 expansion on my mag i didnt even consider buying a shotgun until after i sold it.
The only bad thing with such hot loads in a .40 is recoil which is bad with even commercial stuff let alone DT's loadings. But it does allow you to go higher in grains and still get great expansion and penetration.
And when you look at the cost its actually a bargain considering you get 50 rounds.
With a full sized gun id buy DT ammo to carru in it, But for my Subcompact i think ill stick with a tad weaker load and 165gr.
Even that is awsome firepower.

I DO NOT feel under gunned carrying my 12+1 .40 when im not carrying my 9+1 1911.
I carry extra mags also :)

REAPER4206969
May 26, 2010, 02:18 AM
flat nosed FMJ
You have chosen; poorly.

gofastman
May 26, 2010, 11:59 AM
Unless the bullet has some sort of hollow cavity at the front it has absolutely no chance of stopping a threat or even buying you some time to run away!

gofastman
May 26, 2010, 12:07 PM
^ that was spoken ironically of course, but why did you chose FMJ's? There are lots of great hollow points out there that inflict allot more damage.

CZF
May 26, 2010, 09:39 PM
I plan to buy a P-06:

http://i48.tinypic.com/dxz02o.jpg

and test/carry this:
http://onfinite.com/libraries/1575767/666.jpg


After selling my heavy 10mm Witness that was wonderfully powerful
with Double Tap 10mm ammo.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/WFLAME.JPG
I think a 165 grain .40 caliber bullet at nearly 1,275 fps in enough pistol for me.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-11/897801/dt-40.jpg

DasFriek
May 26, 2010, 11:01 PM
If i buy some DT it will be the 180gr as the added punch would make up for the shorter barrel. Altho that 150gr has some serious numbers that go along with it.

I still prefer to carry my 1911, Just not in this warm spring and upcoming summer. And i also like the flat recoil of the 1911 and the .45acp.
But i can still control a .40 well and have a few extra rounds on me just in case. It is snappier, My 1911 is very flat recoil wise with a #22 spring in it.
But when push comes to shove it will take a forensics specialist to possibly even tell what made that big hole in the BD if i ever needed to use my weapon.

Ill be honest here and just state i wont and never would carry a 9mm caliber gun as my main ccw carry. Nor would i carry a FMJ in anything unless it was under a .380
Just because NATO uses 9mm FMJ a soldiers main weapon is a rifle and i think very few EVER want to use their secondary handgun.
We didn't win no wars with FMJ or HP, If we won a war it was with a rifle before ANY handgun.

REAPER4206969
May 27, 2010, 01:03 AM
Then again it is also my opinion that the 1911 was a good design in 1911 but this is 2010 now and we are not riding around on horses any more either and the 1911 is an antique.
So you think a 1911 is an antique, yet you carry crappy FMJ range ammo?

REAPER4206969
May 27, 2010, 01:45 AM
S&B is not crappy range ammo
Yes it is.

and would you take a hit with crappy range ammo such as WWB? I don't think so!
Sure, but I'll shoot you back with some PDX1.

Hitler killed himself with a .32 caliber round nosed bullet.

Which was the best available at the time. He took a cyanide tablet too.

Like I said before, anything hitting the human body moving along at 1000 feet a second is going to cause serious injury no matter what size or shape it is.
That's not how handgun bullets wound. FMJ will leave a small, self sealing wound channel.

I like two holes, one in front and one out the back=2 leaks. 2 shots equals 4 leaks. 4 shots = 8 leaks.
Are you familiar with internal hemorrhaging?

Skylerbone
May 27, 2010, 01:52 AM
Put it to bed guys! The point is not a body count between FMJ and HP ammo, you may as well be counting musket balls and tell him to shoot lead for its "killed more men than any other" factor.

The point to consider is that hollow points were meant to inflict damage with controlled expansion. That expansion is two-fold in purpose: enlarge the wound channel and dump stored energy into the target. Why is that important? Anyone? To cause damage to the intended AND ONLY the intended. Carrying a pistol does not give you the right to use it in any manner you see fit. It also, most assuredly does not give you the right to inflict collateral damage to others who may be BEHIND your intended target. That is why the rangemaster does not allow people to wander down range when the line is hot. While you know you're aiming at your target, he doesn't know how good your aim is.

That being said, every cartridge has an intended purpose. Do not doubt or rethink its ability to "put a man down". Read what the manufacturer has to say about it beyond the ballistic chart. Hornady TAP for instance is meant for penetration...of mild steel. Hornady Critical Defense is meant for penetration of humans without clogging or deforming when it hits fabrics (like clothing, in case your assailant isn't nude).

Yes, a chronograph is helpful, even more so if you load your own. I've got one and have owned one for nearly two decades. They're cheap, accurate and can provide some peace of mind when determining whether or not a round will do what it is purported to.

Lastly, does anyone ever really think about what they post on the internet these days? Calling yourself "man killer" or "rightous angel" and asking what works best in your third back up mag will not likely remain anonymous if you jerk that pistol and shoot someone. One day at a police forensics lab and a prosecutor or "wrongful death" attorney will have you seeing bars and or your family eating at a soup kitchen. So practice a little restraint here, we are already characterized by the media as "gun totin thugs". Imagine if they did a nightly news story on some of the above postings.

Part II

Any of the aforementioned ammo should work fine for the majority of self-defense situations. Be conscious of your surroundings and what you're likely to encounter. If TAP is what you think you need then load a magazine with it. Keep another loaded with Winchester and keep a shotgun with a tactical light and #5 shot for home defense. You've put a lot of thought into one area and perhaps neglected a few others. I'm glad to see so many interested parties either way and I hope none of us ever has to find out first-hand about any ammo's stopping power.

Sorry in advance for the lecture, I simply worry that some day, given the odds, someone on here will overstep their bounds and become what they sought protection from. My personal choice is the Hornady XTP in 155gr and 5.5gr of TiteGroup in a Federal wrapper. I neither endorse said round nor recommend it as we do not know eachother and you have no reason to accept my recipe for your particular need.

Stay safe, shop smart, shop S Mart.

Full Metal Jacket
May 27, 2010, 02:01 AM
And later picked up some Federal HST 135gr from WallyWorld real cheap and ive been reading a few ammo threads and i got to thinking about my situation.


this ammo was part of a government contract overrun. it was make for subcompact HK p2000's. it's loaded to weak velocities when compared to other 135 grn 40cal offerings. i wouldn't use this ammo. there's a reason why it's cheap, & so readily available....

i decided to go with 165 & 180grn HST for my 3inch EMP40.

Full Metal Jacket
May 27, 2010, 02:03 AM
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-11/897801/dt-40.jpg

i wouldn't use double tap. it doesn't get good customer feedback on online sellers as far as reliability, not to mention it's loaded a bit too hot.

REAPER4206969
May 27, 2010, 02:11 AM
Lastly, does anyone ever really think about what they post on the internet these days? Calling yourself "man killer" or "rightous angel" and asking what works best in your third back up mag will not likely remain anonymous if you jerk that pistol and shoot someone. One day at a police forensics lab and a prosecutor or "wrongful death" attorney will have you seeing bars and or your family eating at a soup kitchen. So practice a little restraint here, we are already characterized by the media as "gun totin thugs". Imagine if they did a nightly news story on some of the above postings.
A)These discussions are the entire point of a defensive pistol forum.
And
B)Post a case.

Skylerbone
May 27, 2010, 03:00 AM
A case? Miranda. Familiar with it?

I'm not trying to limit your freedom of speech, you are well within your legal rights but 'Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.'

Its called good judgement. The same thing that keeps rational men from looking for a gun fight.

Personal attacks are NOT part of this forum, it's called The High Road. If lack of a case sight in my previous post renders the ADVICE worthless then feel free to disregard it.

JShirley
May 27, 2010, 03:15 AM
would you take a hit

Always a ridiculous thing to say. No rational person wants to be hit with even a paintball marker. That doesn't mean you should stock up on red paintballs and Co2 and think you're prepared to defend yourself against lethal force.

DasFriek
May 27, 2010, 03:15 AM
Skylerbone- I think your reading a little to much into this. In order to to find a good defensive round talking about what you want it to do is inevitable.
Saying your wanting to use it for anything other than protecting yourself is careless and wrong and no one here condones that.

To call the 1911 design an antique is accurate, But so is the combustion engine.
I carry a 1911 when im not using this XD SC .40 and as far as im concerned NO other gun out there carries better for a full sized gun.

FMJ in anything above a .32 is the wrong ammo for SD if you value effectiveness. Modern ammo has now made the .380 even a reliable SD cartridge with hollow points.

DT has earned a good reputation across the net from everything ive read. Maybe ive been missing some reviews tho.
It is loaded hot i agree there, And in a .40 which is already snappy to begin with id be doing alot of testing to make sure it was a usable load controllable enough to be effective.

Anyhow im getting close to PM'ing a mod to lock the thread if the tone doesnt become more civil.

Art Eatman
May 27, 2010, 08:46 AM
Folks just really don't need to act like juvenile male gorillas in a chest-thumping contest. That's rather underwhelming behavior.

DasFriek
May 27, 2010, 12:30 PM
Thanks Art. One mans trash is another mans treasure and we should all just respect another man's opinion and let it go at that. No one is saying we all have to like the same thing in pistols and ammo. It is a personal choice to the owner.

I like Makarovs and dislike 1911's. I like FMJ and dislike JHP. Now when we get down to the brass tacks they are both just guns and ammo the we can pick from. Owning one or the other does not make the owner/user any lesser of a person in any way.

While i don't agree with many of your choices in ammo and possibly weapons i respect your right to carry what you want and what ammo is in it.

You obviously aren't a noob and came to your decision while being informed and and knowing your own needs. And even tho 90% of the people here will disagree with your choice in ammo, If it makes you happy thats all that matters.

Defense Minister
May 27, 2010, 12:39 PM
I thouroughly agree with those that recommend a 155/165 grain round for your short barrel gun. I carry DT 155s in my 3.5". However, if you are loading something that is extra hot, like DoubleTap, a 180 will still have plenty of speed to expand reliably. That is why I love the 180s from DoubleTap.

DasFriek
May 27, 2010, 12:50 PM
I agree, The 180gr DT would be effective speed wise threw my 3" gun.
BUT id really have to test it alot to make sure i could handle the recoil in such a small gun with a big and hot loaded round like that. In many cases i think it would be just as bad or worse than a 10mm round.
Practice should overcome most of that, And it wouldn't be for everyone.
Im used to moderate recoil in guns since i shoot alot of .45acp and even did so in a subcompact with a sungle stack (Taurus PT745) and it was a hand full to say the least.

Ive read alot of good about the PDX1 and i picked the 165gr so i feel i have a perfect round thats a compromise in speed and recoil.

Skylerbone
May 27, 2010, 01:04 PM
I would strenuously disagree with the notion that you should carry whatever makes you happy. That certainly isn't all that matters.

I don't care whose been shooting for 2 years or 40, misinformed is misinformed. Carelessness is still careless. Given 50 years I would never be able to explain to my wife how I did the right thing by shooting an intruder if the bullet went through the next wall and through one of my children and I could Never live with myself if it happened.

The hollow point follows the same principle as a dragster; the point is to go fast then eject the shoot (read expand) to avoid catastrophy. That the expansion increases the wound channel's size is merely a secondary benefit.

Men with much more expertise and equipment are paid well to design bullets with specific characteristics. Attempting to ignore the science, research and development behind those designs borders on criminal negligence. That was my point. Carry the propper ammo for the most likely scenario, carry a spare mag if you guessed wrong and don't stick around for your 50th shot- get away!

gofastman
May 27, 2010, 01:10 PM
The hollow point follows the same principle as a dragster; the point is to go fast then eject the shoot (read expand) to avoid catastrophy. That the expansion increases the wound channel's size is merely a secondary benefit.
That is not true, a bullet that doesn't exit the body, hollow point ot not, hasn't done all the damage it could have.
An expanding bullet isn't a safety thing, its used simply to inflict more damage in your target.

DasFriek
May 27, 2010, 01:28 PM
Attempting to ignore the science, research and development behind those designs borders on criminal negligence. You should write your Congressman and the highest ranks of the Military to let them know how you feel about there choice of ammo.

Should he switch his gun too a .22lr with HP's in it, Will that be more effective?
Many,Many people still carry FMJ ammo in their 1911's as expansion isnt always everything.

By your thinking Attempting to ignore the science, research and development behind those designs borders on criminal negligence. People who use the antique 1911 designed guns are doing the same thing since so much progress has been made in gun design and polymers and simplicity of guns.

Skylerbone
May 27, 2010, 02:27 PM
Again, you haven't read what I wrote. The right ammo for the right situation. Armor piercing rounds are meant for that purpose. Hollow points, Glaser safety slugs and the like are meant for SD. If you want to believe there must be an exit wound then I'm telling you you better know what's behind what you're shooting at.

As far as the military is concerned they use NATO standard ammo and while they are taught to be killing machines in Basic they are there to protect and serve, not to rack up huge body counts. The rules of engagement they are bound by do not apply in a street encounter.

Don't presume to understand my way of thinking when you don't read for comprehension. I'm simply giving common sense advice. If you think a jury will understand that sometimes a bystander gets killed when you shoot at bad guys then again, by all means ignore your responsibility, pretend you're not liable for your actions and decisions and finally stay out of my neighborhood.

The right to carry does not give you authority to do as you please. As far as your assertion that many many more people carry FMJ in their 1911s is an impossible guess on your part and has no relevance on wrong or right. Many more people in Detroit murder people than in my home town and yet I don't trumpet the idea that they have made a wise choice.

Skylerbone
May 27, 2010, 04:50 PM
Self- defense and the choice to carry for that purpose brings with it a great responsibility. I think we owe it to ourselves to prepare for every situation not just worst case scenario. In this case self-defense could mean protecting yourself from prison time or multi-million dollar law suits. Never underestimate the leathality of a lawyer or try to outguess a jury.

Nick5182
May 27, 2010, 04:55 PM
In my opinion, the main factor is if whether or not you're comfortable with what ammo you use. I use Winchester Ranger 180gr BJHP's and carry a Glock 22. I've fired enough rounds of the WR180's that I'm comfortable and confident in that they're going to go where I want them to when I need them to. I think you should just try the different ammo types and weights until you narrow it down to something you're comfortable with. Regardless of what you choose, it's "gonna put a hurtin'" on someone if you need it to. Just my 2 cents.

DasFriek
May 27, 2010, 07:17 PM
Welp, Im done with this thread.
Its no longer about .40 ammo but a witch hunt for a reason to feel self righteous.
Pretty bad i have to report my own thread.

Larry Ashcraft
May 27, 2010, 07:44 PM
Sounds like we have several misinformed but adamant members going around in circles arguing with each other.

Closed at the request of the OP.

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