Question re: purchase of pre-'86 dealer samples


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horatiodreamt
May 24, 2010, 04:39 PM
Hello. I have a newbie question.

I've seen NFA dealer websites that offer pre-'86 dealer samples of full-auto firearms. They also have C&R full-auto stuff, too. Can ordinary citizens (i.e. non-NFA dealers) purchase pre-86 full auto weapons, or are these firearms restricted to NFA dealers?

Info appreciated. Thanks! :)

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FIVETWOSEVEN
May 24, 2010, 05:16 PM
Pre-86 can be bought by anyone just its quite the process. Post-86 are dealer toys only. Someone else should fill in the rest for me.

Sam1911
May 24, 2010, 07:14 PM
Here's a post from UZItalk that explains it sort of clearly:

It's no newb question- I've met some pretty with-it folks who didn't know the right answer.

Machineguns were first restricted in 1934. From that point forward, they required government registration and a $200 tax. However, you could get your MG from anywhere-- bring it back from a war, buy it outside the country and carry it in, make it here... Anything went.

In 1968, the Gun Control Act was passed. Among other things, it restricted foreign machineguns (or domestic ones that were exported and later re-imported) to only being owned by dealers. Dealers could keep these after giving up their licenses, though.

In 1986, the FOPA passed. Among other things, it banned any MG made after 05/19/1986 from civilian ownership. Dealers and manufacturers could possess them, but had to give them up or destroy them if they gave up their license.

Thus:

"Presample" is a foreign gun imported and registered between '68-'86.

"Postsample" is ANY gun registered after 05/19/1986.

"Fully transferrable" is any foreign gun registered before '68 and any domestic gun registered before 05/19/1986.

Does that clear the waters a little? :)

Here's another one from Northern Maine Tactical Supply's web site:

There are two classifications of dealer samples: Pre-86 and Post-86. Samples are just that: SALES SAMPLES, and can be owned by dealers, law enforcement and military. However a post-86 dealer sample requires a LE letter (law enforcement or police letter requesting demo, instruction, sale, etc.,) for approval from ATF for a dealer to own it .

And further commentary from TFL:

When you get the SOT you can purchase pre-86 dealer sample & transferable machinguns, Short shotguns & rifles, and AOWs. For post-86 dealer sample guns you HAVE to have a LEO Demonstration letter signed. Once you have that you can aquire that particular model gun and keep it as long as you maintain your SOT status. When you give up your SOT status you either have to sell beforehand, torch to ATF Specs, or turn/transfer to police departments all your Post-sample guns

Make sense? It shouldn't.

Ian
May 24, 2010, 08:30 PM
Only dealers can buy dealer samples, but when you cease being a dealer you can keep pre-86 samples, where you'd have to get rid of post-86 samples.

clarence222
May 25, 2010, 05:05 PM
I think Ian is correct

mboylan
June 23, 2010, 09:09 PM
Pre-86 dealer samples can only be purchased by dealers.

Corey
June 24, 2010, 10:14 AM
Pre-86 dealer samples are foreign made machine guns imported between 1968 and 1986. They may only be purchased by a dealer and do not require the "demo letter" that Post-86 dealer samples require. A dealer may also purchase multiples of the same model with Pre-86 samples unlike Post-86. If the SOT is a sole proprietorship and the dealer gives up his license he can keep the Pre-86 dealer sample but when he goes to sell it or dies then those guns can only transfer to a dealer, not an individual.

People getting an SOT and then buying a bunch of Pre-86 dealer samples are looked at closely by ATF (you have to be engaging in the business, not enhancing your personal collection) so keep that in mind.

Regen
June 25, 2010, 09:26 AM
Do Pre-86 dealer samples need to be registered? Or is the reason the BATFE looks closely at people get a SOT and then buying a bunch of Pre-86 dealer samples is because this is a way to get FA without having to pay the premium for a registered machine gun?

Regen
June 25, 2010, 09:27 AM
Has anyone attempted to register a Post-86 gun and been denied?

Corey
June 25, 2010, 10:57 AM
Do Pre-86 dealer samples need to be registered? Or is the reason the BATFE looks closely at people get a SOT and then buying a bunch of Pre-86 dealer samples is because this is a way to get FA without having to pay the premium for a registered machine gun?

ALL machine guns have to be registered. Dealer sample guns (both Pre and Post '86) have the form marked by ATF indicating it is a restricted transfer item. Fully transferrable machine guns are very expensive because there is a limited supply of them and no more can be made. Pre-86 dealer samples are not nearly as much money because while that supply is fixed as well, there is a much smaller pool of potential buyers (only SOT's) that can buy them. Post-86 guns are the lowest priced machine guns. Prices comparable to the same type of gun in semi-auto only in most cases, because these guns are still being manufactured but there is a very limited supply of buyers. Amazing how that whole supply and demand thing works:).

ATF takes a dim view of getting an SOT simply so that you can buy machine guns without having to pay the prices on fully transferrable guns.

On your other question, a licensed manufacturer with SOT does not apply to make a machinegun. They make a machinegun and then notify ATF that the gun has been manufactured. That gun is registered as a post-86 gun with restricted transfer. I have heard of people filing a Form 1 to make a machine gun so that when it gets denied they would have standing to file a lawsuit, but I have no idea if anyone has actually filed a suit.

DoubleTapDrew
June 25, 2010, 02:46 PM
I have heard of people filing a Form 1 to make a machine gun so that when it gets denied they would have standing to file a lawsuit, but I have no idea if anyone has actually filed a suit.
I think it would take one heck of a legal fund and a lot of time considering the ATF has unlimited funds to fight it (using OUR money). Fortunately most MG owners are affluent so I don't think it would be too diffcult to come up with a decent fund if someone had a strong enough case to go after the constitutionality of the hughes amendment.

Regen
June 25, 2010, 04:16 PM
Fortunately most MG owners are affluent so I don't think it would be too diffcult to come up with a decent fund if someone had a strong enough case to go after the constitutionality of the hughes amendment.
Especially, if that person had a Pre-86 MG and tries to register an identical Post-86 MG. I don't think that it would be too difficult to show that the date of registration is arbitrary. Very similar to Heller in terms of the legal issue.

Zack
June 27, 2010, 03:42 PM
So if you had you're own gunshop (class 3 dealer/NFA) you could own NFA weapons/full autos AFTER the date 86? like a m4 made in the 90's?

AJAX22
June 27, 2010, 03:48 PM
I think you would need to be a manufacturer or dealer with a demo letter to get a mid 90's M4 wouldn't you?

either way wouldn't you have to be a 02SOT

Sam1911
June 27, 2010, 06:19 PM
So if you had you're own gunshop (class 3 dealer/NFA) you could own NFA weapons/full autos AFTER the date 86? like a m4 made in the 90's?If you're a Class 03 taxpayer FFL then yes, you could have such a thing, but first you'll need a letter from a local law enforcement agency saying that they want you to acquire such a thing for testing, instruction, sales, etc. You can't just collect dealer post-samples.

For post-86 dealer sample guns you HAVE to have a LEO Demonstration letter signed. Once you have that you can aquire that particular model gun and keep it as long as you maintain your SOT status. When you give up your SOT status you either have to sell beforehand, torch to ATF Specs, or turn/transfer to police departments all your Post-sample guns

Now, as an SOT 02 manufacturer, you can MAKE such things, which can be somewhat more flexible, but still not carte blanche to call up H&K or Colt or Izhmash, etc. and order yourself a brand new machine gun.

DoubleTapDrew
June 28, 2010, 12:43 AM
So once you have a demo letter and acquire a particular model you can keep it as long as you still have your SOT status (after you are done demonstrating it for the LE agency)? Nice!

Sam1911
June 28, 2010, 06:33 AM
So once you have a demo letter and acquire a particular model you can keep it as long as you still have your SOT status (after you are done demonstrating it for the LE agency)? Nice!

Yes, from what I understand.

Now the issue would seem to be (especially considering that some/many chief LEOs won't even sign a Form 1 or Form 4 for folks) convincing the local agency that they really want you do this for them. The purpose of the letter isn't simply a "permission slip" for you to get toys -- it is an official statement from the agency that they are considering purchasing certain weapons for law-enforcement purposes.

It isn't like most departments are sitting around just wishing someone would demonstrate for them a new M240, or AN-94, or Glock 18, or M2 -- or whatever you have an itch to play with. Unless you're good pals with your local Sheriff and he's a gunnie who will "play along," it isn't terribly likely that your local agency sees a need for anything more than an AR carbine -- which they can get from the federal government very cheaply. Heck, some chiefs don't even want their officers to have those!

Getting the letter(s) may be more of a stumbling block than getting your license.

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