The Anti-Gun Mentality


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BLACKHAWKNJ
May 27, 2010, 12:49 AM
The recent news stories about Mayor Daley of Chicago showing contempt for safe gun handling and the story from Chicago of an 80 year old veteran defending himself and his wife with an illegal-under Chicago law-handgun has prompted to me to post a reminder of who the enemies of the RKBA are:
1. The Hypocrites-the old "Do as I say, not as I do" crowd. They're the politicians-the presidents, the governors, the mayors who think it's just fine for them and their families to be protected 24/7 by Secret Service, uniformed officers, plainclothesmen and SWAT teams, but the average citizen is supposed to depend on 911, pepper spray-and their feet.
2. The Elitists-they overlap a great deal with the Hypocrites. They think it's OK for them and their well heeled and well connected friends to have firearms, CCW licenses, but not Mr. & Mrs. Ordinary.
3. The Statists-the "Police and Military Only" crowd. They think anyone working for the government is in a superior caste and has skills, knowledge and judgement those in the lower classes cann never hope to have.
4. The Hoplophobes. Jeff Cooper's term. They have an irrational fear of weapons, they think this gives them the right to take them away from others to ease their phobias.

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happygeek
May 27, 2010, 02:15 AM
They certainly see RKBA as a privilege, not a right.

I think those categories are about right, with one addition: those with ulterior motives. Take Josh Sugermann of the VPC, for example. I've read and re-read much of what's on their site in an attempt to understand the anti-gun crowd and their positions. The nice thing about the VPC site is that they don't seem to ever take anything down, they just add to it as they go. You can pull up "studies" and press releases that they put out back in the mid 80s.

I honestly think Josh Sugermann knows exactly what he's talking about. He uses distortions and half truths in his "studies" and "reports", but I've come to the conclusion that he does know what he's talking about and what the implications are. Hence, I can't help but come to the conclusion that he's trying to create the conditions for a totalitarian government to take hold.

stickhauler
May 27, 2010, 02:38 AM
My impression of the anti-crowd's thought process is that they don't desire to discuss the issue, they only want to hear an affirmation of their opinions. I've tried the experiment several times in anti-gun forums, trying to engage those there in actual discussion of the debate, rather than a complete "yes, we're right and you're full of it" attitude. I have actually had a few try to debate their views for a short time, and generally the administrators delete any argument I put in, and rescind my right to post within days. And I make it a point to avoid the game of responding in kind to the insults sent my way. Simply making a pro-gun comment puts the management of the sites into shock it seems. Yet, I see a constant parade of anti's invade pro gun sites, and they're not restricted from posting their views.

It's kind of the same thing we see in political debate these days. Those supporting each and every thing Obama is doing were quite vocal during the prior administration in their displeasure, and any criticism of their outlandish comments was answered with cries of attempts to silence them, political discourse was "patriotic" then. And we let them speak their piece. Because most of us on the more traditional side of politics actually served in the military to assure the right of every American to say what they want to, regardless of whether we agree with their point of view or not. Yet now, offer even one small criticism of the present administration, and immediately you hear the cry of "racist", as if anyone who dares to object to what's going on does so simply because of Obama's race.

Warhawk83
May 27, 2010, 01:46 PM
^

If you disagree with anything the left is going for you are labeled either: racist, bigot, sexist, homophobe. The list goes on, they can't debate objectively, they have to name call.

Most people on that side want nothing more than an affirmation of their views.

General Geoff
May 27, 2010, 02:30 PM
The anti-gun mentality largely stems from a simple notion: People, by and large, can't be trusted.

Firearms are tools. Humans are tool-using animals. It is one of two major things (the other being the ability to reason) that sets us apart from monkeys and the rest of the animal kingdom.

The idea behind gun control is that the government knows what's best for you, and will keep you from hurting yourself with powerful, potentially dangerous tools like firearms.


If you disagree with anything the left is going for you are labeled either: racist, bigot, sexist, homophobe.

So what happens if you're a pro-gun black lesbian? :D

lions
May 27, 2010, 02:38 PM
So what happens if you're a pro-gun black lesbian?

You will make someone's head explode!

Don't forget the brainwashed masses as a group who want our guns gone. They take to heart what the brady's and the media want them to think about guns and believe the emotional based "facts" that guns are evil and we would all be safe without them.

JellyJar
May 27, 2010, 02:52 PM
In my years of studying about the issue of RKBA I have come to the conclusion that one of the main reasons some oppose RKBA is because of old fashion bigotry. Some believe that anyone outside the military or law enforcement who likes guns must be morally and emotionally that they need the "power" that comes from owing guns to prop up their egos.

FLAvalanche
May 27, 2010, 02:55 PM
The anti-gun mentality largely stems from a simple notion: People, by and large, can't be trusted.


Just to throw a wrench in the debate, isn't that the same reason you carry?

cambeul41
May 27, 2010, 03:05 PM
Just to throw a wrench in the debate, isn't that the same reason you carry?

Nope! People by and large can be trusted, there are just a few that can't -- and I have no idea when or where they will appear.

Jamie B
May 27, 2010, 03:19 PM
Nope! People by and large can be trusted, there are just a few that can't -- and I have no idea when or where they will appear.

It used to be from behind in an alley near a bad bar.

These days, it can be anywhere.

Deanimator
May 27, 2010, 03:44 PM
The one unifying thread of all "movement" anti-gun "thought" and its advocates is dishonesty.

I've been discussing a LOT of subjects for more than twenty years, first on BBSes, then in FidoNet, then usenet, now on message boards. And in all of that time, the ONLY people I've seen who were more dishonest than anti-gunners were Holocaust deniers and not by much.

It's not a matter of not knowing. They have not just a contempt for the truth, but a blind hatred for it.

General Geoff
May 27, 2010, 03:54 PM
Just to throw a wrench in the debate, isn't that the same reason you carry?

Not at all. 99+% of people are generally upstanding citizens, or at the very least don't wish to do harm to others unprovoked. Carrying a sidearm is for the <1% who do wish to do harm to others for their own benefit.

jhansman
May 27, 2010, 03:59 PM
As an avid shooter whose wife is completely anti, I can tell you the mentality (but not the person) is simple: guns are the problem, not those using them. Or, perhaps more accurate, both are. AFAIK, there is no arguing with this position. Believe me, I've tried. When I remind her and others I discuss the topic with about the Japanese man who killed eight people in a crowd with a knife before he was finally subdued, I just get blank stares. My experience is antis are very clear on how they feel about guns, but know very little.

Demitrios
May 27, 2010, 04:00 PM
The mentality that, "Guns are bad." usually stems from lack of knowledge, which in turn breeds fear, which in turn breeds self-preservation. Why would someone believe they're preserving themselves by giving up their abilities to defend themselves you say? Lack of education which in turn breeds lack of knowledge. . . see where I'm going with this?

cbrgator
May 27, 2010, 04:03 PM
The true reality is that it really doesn't matter what the Brady Campaign, VPC, etc. say. The talking that matters is done in a courtroom, and at least for the time being, the court is on our side. Let Helmke and Sugarmann talk until they are blue in the face. Hasn't worked for them since the 90's, and we are on a good path right now to fight off their attacks and prove their claims wholly inconsistent with the "data" they base it on.

With each favorable law/decision for us, we further prove that the sky does not fall, and they lose credibility. Keep the fights in the courts... we are winning.

"Mass produced mayhem" and whatever other bologna they put out may give some people looking for support a leg to stand on (or so they feel), but IIRC, and I may not, no studies from Brady, VPC, or even the NRA, were used in the Heller rationale. Let them talk. Most of it falls on deaf ears.

If and when the time comes for challenging all sorts of individual laws like ccw, awb's, mag capacity, one handgun per month, etc. and the Court wants to look at studies for policy considerations, we will win again. Anybody with basic brain functions will see that their studies are flawed. Facts are facts. Crime does not go up (at the very least, statistically significant crime) when gun rights are expanded. We have the facts on our side, the law (more and more) on our side, and for the time being, the Court on our side.

Go ahead Helmke, have at it. Enjoy yourself.

EDIT: HERE IS A GREAT LINK FROM TODAY ABOUT THE MILITARY AND POLICE BEING THE ONLY ONES QUALIFIED TO HANDLE WEAPONS.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/02/18/government.guns/index.html

How many guns have you lost??

Warhawk83
May 27, 2010, 04:03 PM
So what happens if you're a pro-gun black lesbian?

I would probably buy you a beer and talk about women. :cool:

gatorjames85
May 27, 2010, 04:36 PM
It has been my experience that the people who are most afraid of guns are also totally unfamiliar with them. Ignorance breeds fear.

metalman8600
May 27, 2010, 04:40 PM
Forgot where I saw the phrase.... but they think that "A 110 lb women has the right to fist fight a 210 lb man."

wishin
May 27, 2010, 05:24 PM
The recent news stories about Mayor Daley of Chicago showing contempt for safe gun handling and the story from Chicago of an 80 year old veteran defending himself and his wife with an illegal-under Chicago law-handgun has prompted to me to post a reminder of who the enemies of the RKBA are.............

I think you've summed it up succinctly.

Jamie B
May 27, 2010, 07:24 PM
As an avid shooter whose wife is completely anti, I can tell you the mentality (but not the person) is simple: guns are the problem, not those using them.

I share your pain.

Wife is basically same, and can't seem to understand the gravity of life these days.

When I question her about getting attacked, I get the 'I'll scratch their eyes with my keys instead" reply.

She does not understand that the hyped 160lb dope fiend will eat her for lunch, and her keys.

I carry with her and the kids, but I doubt that she will understand.

It is not from lack of education on my part, but she assumes good in everyone, and must believe that evil folks live in a secluded room somewhere.

I am at a loss here.

merlinfire
May 27, 2010, 07:39 PM
I think it usually stems from a basic lack of understanding. I have enough faith in humanity that I believe a lot of problems stem from ignorance and bad experiences. Education and experience are the best remedy.

Gouranga
May 27, 2010, 08:13 PM
One thing i have greatly underestimate in the past was the "brainwashing" (for lack of a better term) done by society.

Watch the movies and shows that have firearms in them and analyze the message broadcast. Some are subtle some are not. In absence of real life experience the message in the media takes hold.

Good example, I grew up in a very small town. I did not see my first person of color till I was 8 (seriously). When i did, I was petrified of him. I thought he was a gang banger (he was dressed normal not gang banger style), and was going to shoot me. On TV that is what they do.

When I got into firearms, I was amazed by the fear of them I had. I was literally ashamed (like I was doing something wrong by touching them), to hold a gun. Why? Because cops, and bad guys have them, not normal people.

Was watching "Enough" the other night. A movie about domestic violence. That movie could have ended in 25 minutes if she had gotten an emergency CCW and restraining order and a gun. When she does confront him, she takes and hides his guns and decides to do a hand to hand battle (with the intent of killing him). So it was right to beat this pile of garbage to death but they needed to get the guns out of there. Oh and again, the good person has no guns, the bad guy has multiple guns in his house.

I think a way to battle this mentality, knowledge and experience. If someone comes up to you about the evil of guns, offer to take them to the range (assuming you have the patience to deal with them), honestly talk to them, ask them where their opinion comes from? Confront them with facts, experience, etc. It won't win everyone over but it will win a lot.

Has worked for me a number of times and worked WITH me.

lions
May 27, 2010, 08:48 PM
Forgot where I saw the phrase.... but they think that "A 110 lb women has the right to fist fight a 210 lb man."

It comes from the sig line a couple posts above yours, #11 to be exact.;) Courtesy of Deanimator.

Buck Snort
May 27, 2010, 08:56 PM
General Geoff wrote: "Humans are tool-using animals. It is one of two major things (the other being the ability to reason) that sets us apart from monkeys and the rest of the animal kingdom."

Actually, there seem to be quite a number of tool using animals. There is even a bird or two that will bend a wire into a hook to retrieve food from the bottom of a glass tube.

Buck Snort
May 27, 2010, 09:03 PM
Delete, repetitive.

Buck Snort
May 27, 2010, 09:11 PM
The mentality that, "Guns are bad." usually stems from lack of knowledge, which in turn breeds fear, which in turn breeds self-preservation. Why would someone believe they're preserving themselves by giving up their abilities to defend themselves you say? Lack of education which in turn breeds lack of knowledge. . . see where I'm going with this?
Yep. We really SHOULD engage ant-gunners socially and do our level best to get them to a gun range and put a mild shooting gun into their hands. Once you get'm to that point then a bit of charm and gentle persuasion should start to get them turned around.

Elmar66
May 27, 2010, 10:30 PM
Anti-Gun banter is simply anti-American. Most people don't even understand what the true purpose of the 2nd Amendment was. It was created for the people to defend themselves from an oppresive govnerment.

General Geoff
May 27, 2010, 11:05 PM
I should also add that most people aren't actually anti-gun, as they have no problems with police and military personnel having weapons.

They are not anti-gun; they are pro-tyranny.

Culwathion
May 27, 2010, 11:10 PM
The "anti" movement is primarily concerned with restricting responsible citizens from legally possessing firearms. This movement occupies the same side of the political spectrum as those who believe violent offenders are, in fact, victims deserving of rehabilitation instead of punishment. The common thread is that of collectivism; responsible firearms owners must be "absorbed" into the collective... and violent offenders similarly need to be re-absorbed, rather than shunned or removed from society. Individualism, whether pursued for good or ill intent, is the true fear of the "anti" mentality. Firearms are just tools. The "anti" crowd *actually* wants to disarm citizens of their freedom.

happygeek
May 28, 2010, 02:17 AM
Some of the anti crowd (the sheep, not the elitists) are like Amish people who have never seen a car or heard much how they make life easier, but every day they read about how tens of thousands of people a year die in horrid traffic accidents. Every time there's a multiple car pileup on the Interstate with multiple fatalities it's hyped endlessly by their local media.

Of course, the Amish aren't trying to ban cars last I heard.

Gouranga
May 28, 2010, 08:01 AM
The "anti" movement is primarily concerned with restricting responsible citizens from legally possessing firearms.

I think those are the minority. The majority they depend on are the people who actually believe gun control laws reduce crime or at the least take guns out of the hands of criminals. They see things like the news article here last night where a 16 yr old girl was shot to death on the street in broad daylight for nothing (I mean literally nothing, someone got in an argument and she was nearby and not involved in the argument, so he shot her). The next call will be to make the area a gun free zone to "Protect our children".

Those people stricken with fear and grief will be lulled into believing that had they enacted such a law before that the thug would no have been illegally carrying his firearm and would not have illegally shot a innocent bystander.

It sounds like insanity but it is really the methodology the minority anti's take. Without fear and misinformation, they could not get any popular support.

Officers'Wife
May 28, 2010, 08:50 AM
Personally, I think you missed one group. The career politician that crunches the numbers and believes that banning a product is cheaper than enforcing the violent acts associate with those objects yet still give the impression something is being done.

BLACKHAWKNJ
May 28, 2010, 03:34 PM
I would add the crooked politician who identifies with the criminal and not the victim.

sterling180
May 28, 2010, 03:44 PM
Yep. We really SHOULD engage ant-gunners socially and do our level best to get them to a gun range and put a mild shooting gun into their hands. Once you get'm to that point then a bit of charm and gentle persuasion should start to get them turned around.
Well,this might be a somewhat more difficult task,to undertake,particulary,in the case of a Conservative Party MP,Mr Robert Oulds,whom,was on the recieving end,of some negative comments,after posing with his friends guns in a picture,taken on a cell phone-which was 'leaked to the press'.The Labour Party candidate was the most anti& the Tory party,decided to knuckle under,much in the same way,as the Tories did,post-Dunblane in 1996.
http://www.chiswickw4.com/default.asp?section=info&page=concrime87.htm
Also from a personal note myself:I accidently sent a picture of a replica Remington M31 shotgun,to a distant girlfriend of mine&I recieved polite negative comments.
Whats that picture all about then,she said to me? I said,ery politely to her' Oh,thats a film prop,.which is being used in a student movie.Glad you got rid of it babes,It was a scary thing to look at,followed by xx.Some people LOL.
This is a similar picture I sent her,by accident.
http://www.modelguns-worldwide.com/images/m31wsd2_small9.jpg

2ndAmFan
May 28, 2010, 03:45 PM
+1 to what Buck Snort said. My shooting buddy and I turned a seriously anti RKBA woman by taking her shooting after a lot of education/persuasion. She is now a CC holder and never goes anywhere without her pistol.

Ranb
May 28, 2010, 04:01 PM
You guys do not need to look very far to find the anti-gun freak close to you. Some of their ilk are right here on this and other gun forms. It is part of the "guns are OK, but only the kinds I own" stupidity.

Ranb

rainbowbob
May 28, 2010, 04:07 PM
Individualism, whether pursued for good or ill intent, is the true fear of the "anti" mentality.


I think that is an accurate assessment.

Many are "well-intentioned" pacifist types who believe in the inherent goodness in all people. Ironically, many of these do not believe in God - and conversly, do not believe in Evil. They believe that violent criminals can be rehabilitated and turned into kinder and gentler members of society. Therefore, we should not execute them, nor should we have the ability to kill them in an act of self-defense - before they have had yet another opportunity to be properly redeemed.

JellyJar
May 28, 2010, 05:55 PM
Culwathion

I liked what you wrote so well that I have put a copy on my HD. Way to go!!

KarenTOC
May 28, 2010, 06:31 PM
You can't argue with an irrational fear.

Back when I was an anti, my main concern wasn't with getting guns out of the hands of criminals. I knew criminals would always have guns; no way to get around that. What I was concerned with was the "thousands" of deaths caused by accidental shootings every year and of the many "heat of passion" killings that took place during arguments between otherwise law-abiding people. If we could "save one life" then banning guns would be worth it.

It never occurred to me that anyone's life could be saved by owning a gun, and that the number of lives saved might be greater than the number of lives lost. It also never occurred to me that maybe there weren't as many accidental gun deaths per year as I had been led to believe by watching the news.

Werewolf
May 28, 2010, 06:34 PM
Let us cut right to the chase and skip all the psycho-babble.

Anti's are scared little people, scared from lack of knowledge or even compassion, sheep wanting to be protected or wolves who don't want the sheep to be able to decide they won't be forced to be on today's menu.

Neither group deserves any attention other than that necessary to protect ourselves from their phobias or power grabs.

It really is that simple.

del4
May 28, 2010, 08:19 PM
Many are just followers not thinking for themselves. They are anti because they belong to a group. For example, they may be an environmentalist, therefore liberal, therefore anti-gun. Someone with a liberal view of one issue will by default be anti-gun many times. They may not have truely concidered the gun control issue. They think "my friends think this way so I will too".

jbrown50
May 28, 2010, 09:16 PM
Just like all other bigotry, it's based on an insatiable need for control because of a deep seeded inferiority complex.

kenno
May 28, 2010, 11:10 PM
This IS a PERFECT example!
The stupid Effer points a gun at some innocent human then proceds to lecture him about how much smarter he is, how inferior citizens are, and how thier God Given Rights don't count anymore!
Where's the rope?

Buck Snort
May 29, 2010, 07:04 PM
http://www.gunlaws.com/Hoplophobia%20Analysis.htm

I can't recommend this often enough.

Agostini
May 30, 2010, 06:34 AM
Thank you Buck Snort for the excellent link.

This is a great thread. I'm still confused as to why so many Americans hate firearms and us owners so much.

craneman
May 30, 2010, 01:46 PM
Thank You Bucksnort!!!!! That article was fantastic, and should be a mandatory read for all types of people. I had never seen it before today, but I sure wish I had.

308win
May 30, 2010, 01:52 PM
All four of the positions supporting prohibition of firearms ownership have one thing in common - exertion of control. That is what prohibition of firearms ownership is ultimately about - only the motives differ.

Deanimator
May 30, 2010, 03:21 PM
Many are just followers not thinking for themselves.
This is absolutely true.

My experience in over thirty years of debating anti-gunners is that the rank and file can't do anything except parrot slogans. They literally have NO understanding of the subject or indeed of what they're saying to you. Ask them, "What does that mean?" and you'll either get rote repetition or a deer in the headlights look of terror. There's [often imperfect] memorization, not understanding. They don't question what's told to them and in turn don't expect to themselves be questioned. When they are, they're at a total loss. At that point they either repeat themselves endlessly, flee, or resort to insults.. and if you're the wrong color, ethnicity or religion, frequently bigoted insults of the crudest sort. I know, I've been there.

The lowest common denominator types don't have actual beliefs, merely talking points which they receive from others. They don't know what they're talking about or even care. They want to fit in and be "popular" with likeminded individuals.

When confronted with their own ignorance, many will continue to toe the party line. A few will get tired of being embarrassed for somebody else's benefit.

You're HIGHLY unlikely to change the mind of a "movement" anti-gunner, just as you're not likely to change the mind of a "movement" Holocaust denier. You MAY change the mind of a sheep, but not all that often. What you CAN do is show the fence sitters that they're being lied to. That DOES work. I've seen it over and over for decades. The honest person HATES being lied to and will turn on those whom he thinks are deceiving him.

Roscoe57
May 30, 2010, 06:28 PM
Classic anti gun Woman. 67 year old nieghbor lady is anti gun and keeps her dog in a cage at night. No yard lights on during the night. This a a ultra high crime area. Even the police said she was stupid. :banghead:

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