Show some love for the South American Pistolas


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Mitch from LA
May 28, 2010, 01:14 AM
Recently I've read a negative comment or two about South American pistols. I say South American pistols need love too.

If you've had good luck with one of these pistolas post the model and why you liked it.

For me, my PT 1911 is my favorite shooter. Uber-reliable, more accurate than I am, pretty (in my eyes), and will always hold a special place for me as my first handgun.

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Onmilo
May 28, 2010, 10:01 AM
Ahh, Taurus not so good to me.
Strangely, Rossi made guns, not the Taurus/Rossi but the pre Taurus partnership Rossi's have been very good to me.

Do Brazilian made Springfield Inc. 1911 pistols count towards this thread??

I had a real early import Argentine made Military FN/Browning High Power clone that was quite excellent too.

Indy_Tim
May 28, 2010, 10:20 AM
We have 4 Bersa's in the house right now and all are great guns. There's 2 9mms (HC and UC), a 45UC and a 380. The larger framed Bersa's are patterned after the Walther P88 and are reliable, accurate and cheap. They have a lifetime warranty and are well regarded by the folks that own them.

They are every bit as reliable as our Kimbers, Springfields and Walthers. Actually, they are more reliable than the above. I've had FTF issues with all the above with the exception of the Kimber, and have never had an issue with the Bersa 9mms.
Tim

RidgwayCO
May 28, 2010, 11:06 AM
My Rossi 720 and Bersa Series 95 have both proven to be accurate and reliable, which is why I still have them. And my shooting buddy liked my Bersa so much that he insisted I sell him the extra Series 95 I had in the safe.

And as far as "getting what you pay for in this world," my buddy has a Harley Davidson he bought for $16k that's in the shop all the time (he's probably spent another $16k in maintenance). While my 2003 Suzuki Volusia (purchased used in 2006 for $5k) just gets regular oil changes and has never let me down. I guess my experiences are unusual...

MCgunner
May 28, 2010, 11:19 AM
Guns that I own now and shoot great....

Taurus M66 4" early 90s.357 magnum... unreal accurate, fantastic revolver.

Taurus M66 3" late 80s .357 magnum....ditto

Taurus M85SSUL, new in 1996....ditto and uber easy to carry to boot. One of my go to CCWs.

Rossi M68 3"....if it had a S&W logo on it, I'd believe it was a M36. It's awesome, way above the fit and finish I'd seen on other interarms Rossis.

Rossi M511 Sportsman .22 4" kit gun in stainless....Very accurate outdoor companion in the kit gun roll.

Rossi M92 saddle ring carbine in .357 magnum....Accurate, reliable, versatile lever carbine for hunting anything from squirrel to hogs and just woods bumming.


South American guns I've owned in the past....

Rossi M971....Had the infamous firing pin breakage problems with this one, finally got one fitted by a smith and worked fine until I traded it. I took game with this one, was an outdoor companion.

Rossi M88 2"....Was a good gun, shot well, not near the fit and finish of my older 68, was bought in around 1990. Got the Taurus 85 and felt I didn't need it anymore, so sold it.

Rossi M511 Sportsman....Got stolen, why I bought the one I have now used. I just couldn't live without one of these little guns.

None of these are "pistols", but I'm a revolver kinda guy. :D

Mitch from LA
May 28, 2010, 11:19 AM
Bersa has a huge documented problem with springs jumping off and pins backing out.

Cheap is your key word and we all know you get what you pay for in this world.

South American steel is very poor quality and you can even see it's pores quality just by taking any abrasive to it. Just try to blue South American steel you will see the poor quality real quick.

The Germans and Russians are the best gun makers in my opinion. That is why Bersa and many other copy their designs. There is only one real Walther and that is a Walther. The steel in the Eastern European countries is far superior and found in high end guns like Walther, Glock, Sig, Makarov, H&K CZ and the venerable AK-47.
Strangely, I've managed to avoid taking anything abrasive to my pistol thus far. I'm also curious as to why this swiss cheese steel is holding up so well for the legions of satisfied Bersa, Taurus, and Springfield owners.

Mitch from LA
May 28, 2010, 11:20 AM
Guns that I own now and shoot great....

Taurus M66 4" early 90s.357 magnum... unreal accurate, fantastic revolver.

Taurus M66 3" late 80s .357 magnum....ditto

Taurus M85SSUL, new in 1996....ditto and uber easy to carry to boot. One of my go to CCWs.

Rossi M68 3"....if it had a S&W logo on it, I'd believe it was a M36. It's awesome, way above the fit and finish I'd seen on other interarms Rossis.

Rossi M511 Sportsman .22 4" kit gun in stainless....Very accurate outdoor companion in the kit gun roll.

Rossi M92 saddle ring carbine in .357 magnum....Accurate, reliable, versatile lever carbine for hunting anything from squirrel to hogs and just woods bumming.


South American guns I've owned in the past....

Rossi M971....Had the infamous firing pin breakage problems with this one, finally got one fitted by a smith and worked fine until I traded it. I took game with this one, was an outdoor companion.

Rossi M88 2"....Was a good gun, shot well, not near the fit and finish of my older 68, was bought in around 1990. Got the Taurus and felt I didn't need it anymore, so sold it.

Rossi M511 Sportsman....Got stolen, why I bought the one I have now used. I just couldn't live without one of these little guns.

None of these are "pistols", but I'm a revolver kinda guy. :D
Nothing wrong with that, my wife's a wheelgunner all the way.

MCgunner
May 28, 2010, 11:24 AM
And as far as "getting what you pay for in this world," my buddy has a Harley Davidson he bought for $16k that's in the shop all the time (he's probably spent another $16k in maintenance). While my 2003 Suzuki Volusia (purchased used in 2006 for $5k) just gets regular oil changes and has never let me down. I guess my experiences are unusual..

Yeah, it was shovel heads in the late 70s that broke me of that belief years ago. If all you go by is cost of the product, heck, you're a sucker for a scam. :rolleyes: It was also HD that broke me of any tendency to wave the flag and "buy American". :rolleyes: I buy what works for me, thanks. Besides, HD doesn't make anything I really like and Buell went belly up for a reason.

JR47
May 28, 2010, 11:43 AM
The reason why that poor-quality steel lasts so long is simple, it's "poor qualities" exist only in the minds of some. Funny, but the Brazilian military and police use these guns HARD, and they seem to last for them, as well.

Several of the South American companies are ISO certified, and QC has improved markedly as a result.

So, Taurus, is from Brazil, as is Imbel and Rossi. Argentina produced Bersa. Springfield Armory uses the Imbel frames and slides.

South American gun-makers have been supplying arms to their military and police for over a century. Some have been under license from European or American companies, but the MATERIALS were produced locally. That's to include the steels.

I've owned several Bersa handguns for going on 30 years, in .32 ACP and .22 lr. I've also managed to own over a dozen Taurus handguns, some for 30+ years, without incident. To me, that says a lot more about their reliability, endurance, and durability than third party horror stories.

In my personal experience, I've had Colts, S&Ws, HKs, and Sigs fail in the first few rounds far more often than the South American guns.

group17
May 28, 2010, 12:25 PM
My Bersa hasn't suffered from the "documented problems" mentioned at all.
If it ever does I can send it in or have them send me the free parts since it has a life time warranty. Not bad for a $200 South American gun.

Any guns from the USA or Europe ever have recalls for "documented problems"?
Just read the list at the top of the auto loaders threads.

NG VI
May 28, 2010, 01:01 PM
They are now letting our kids use Glocks if they qualify with them.


No, they're not. You get what you are issued, which is a Beretta 92FS, unless you are in some special operations type unit, who carry whatever the hell they please, the Coast Guard, who carry Sig 229s in .40, and some Air Force personnel like pilots who carry Sig 228s.

NMGonzo
May 28, 2010, 01:12 PM
Yeah ... my FAL was issued originally in the 60's and it was issued to me in the 90's.

Still fired and fed and ejected even full auto.

MCgunner
May 28, 2010, 01:24 PM
Makarov is a super buy for the money and doesn't need a warranty, it won't break or fail as far as I have heard. Mine have never failed once in 40 years of use. Not bad for a $50.00 gun when I bought it in 1968. In today's economy, Soviet MilSurp will get you a much better pistol with a proven track record for the money.

The Mak is a bit big for pocket carry. I much prefer my Polish Radom P64. No warranty, though, and parts availability might be a bit iffy. I did manage to find a couple more magazines for it which some had said was tough to do. It also required a spring kit from Wolff and I have a set of Marschel grips on it now which are an improvement. I'm not sure you'd have to go through all that with a Bersa and they seem to be quite good. I do like the little P64, though, nice little weapon and I like 9x18's price and availability better than .380 if nothing else. :D

MCgunner
May 28, 2010, 01:51 PM
From what I have read from the owners group is that Wolf Ammo has soft primers that the hard hitting pin can penetrate and burn off the end of the pin. That heavy hammer spring was needed to ignite the heavy primer Russian 9x18 sub machine gun ammo and was there by design.

Replaced the 24 lb hammer spring with a 19 and it's good with Brown Bear, Silver Bear, and Monarch and with my reloads built from a Lee 105 (advertised as 95, but weighs 105) grain round nose lead in front of 3.2 grains of Bullseye and a Winchester SP primer. I've been trimming 9x19 brass. But, the Monarch is 10 bucks a box of 50 at Academy and shoots great, so that's mostly what I've fired down the pipe. I carry Silver Bear 94 grain JHP in it. Wish they still offered the 115 grain stuff. I've never bought a box of Wolf in this caliber.

Just got my Marschel walnut grips for this gun, today, and they are NICE! Feel better, look better, and only 50 bucks, worth every penny.

MCgunner
May 28, 2010, 01:57 PM
That's not what my kid is saying and he should know he is there right now and just told me so. The Iraqi Security Forces also bought 270,000 G 19 because the Beretta M9 had issues they did not like.

And, I'd heard the Iraqis had gotten Ruger P95s. I've heard the .45 is coming back. I've heard the military is going to replace the M16/M4s in Afghanistan with M14s. I've heard all sorts of stuff about the "foreign contingency plan" (or whatever the hell our communist government is calling it now) over seas. I don't know what to believe anymore. :rolleyes:

NG VI
May 28, 2010, 02:12 PM
The Iraqi security forces use Glock 19s pretty extensively, I have also heard they have a bunch of Rugers and I think they (I know the Afghan forces do) also have a lot of Sigmas.

But for the U.S. military to adopt a new pistol for mass distribution, well, there wouldn't be speculation, that would be major news in the DoD world and the civilian news world as well.

I do know that the Servicemembers responsible for training the Iraqi forces use the same equipment, though that is a specific detail and not the same as general issue like you are describing.

There may have been some wires crossed when seeing some trainers with their particular Iraqi-compatible pistol platform.

JR47
May 28, 2010, 10:54 PM
All I can say in rebuttal is, Thank God our military does not use them. I got a kid in there and over there in the sand box. They are now letting our kids use Glocks if they qualify with them.

Odd, I have a son-in-law, and a step-daughter, who are both Marines. He just came back from Afghanistan. Issue rifle was the M4, and issue pistol was the M9. There is no support for anything else, except the 1911 for the SOC units, only. No magazines, sights, springs, or other little bits. He wanted to take his personal SA XD, but was told in no uncertain terms that "issue was all there was".

The PA-64 that I own is cute, but not at all well machined. I also own several different Makarovs, and Romanian, Soviet, Chinese, Yugoslavian, and Russian Toks. NONE of them are as well fitted, or finished, as the average South American gun. The best of the breed is an East German Makarov. Even then, it exhibits some peening in the slide fitment areas.

Russian metallurgy, or Warsaw Pact metallurgy, is markedly inferior to that of the rest of the world, except maybe the Chinese. Instead of fine machining, and tight QC, they just make it heavier and thicker.

FYI, the super-loaded 9x18, according to Thompson, wasn't introduced until the late 1980's. This would seemingly contradict the statement that the guns were designed around it. In fact, the ammunition was never meant to be fired in any of the Makarov variants, and can cause early, and catastrophic, failure.

I have an IJ-7- Makarov that appears to be made of castings, so porous is the steel surface.

Mitch from LA
May 28, 2010, 11:45 PM
Odd, I have a son-in-law, and a step-daughter, who are both Marines. He just came back from Afghanistan. Issue rifle was the M4, and issue pistol was the M9. There is no support for anything else, except the 1911 for the SOC units, only. No magazines, sights, springs, or other little bits. He wanted to take his personal SA XD, but was told in no uncertain terms that "issue was all there was".

The PA-64 that I own is cute, but not at all well machined. I also own several different Makarovs, and Romanian, Soviet, Chinese, Yugoslavian, and Russian Toks. NONE of them are as well fitted, or finished, as the average South American gun. The best of the breed is an East German Makarov. Even then, it exhibits some peening in the slide fitment areas.

Russian metallurgy, or Warsaw Pact metallurgy, is markedly inferior to that of the rest of the world, except maybe the Chinese. Instead of fine machining, and tight QC, they just make it heavier and thicker.

FYI, the super-loaded 9x18, according to Thompson, wasn't introduced until the late 1980's. This would seemingly contradict the statement that the guns were designed around it. In fact, the ammunition was never meant to be fired in any of the Makarov variants, and can cause early, and catastrophic, failure.

I have an IJ-7- Makarov that appears to be made of castings, so porous is the steel surface.
That's a whole lot of logic with actual evidence and research to back it up. You sure you're posting in the right thread?

Oyeboten
May 28, 2010, 11:52 PM
I do not know anything about any of them other than knowing a little about some of the variations of the Colt Model 1911 and 1911-A1 which were produced in Argentia either under Licence from Colt, or, in unlicensed design versions.


I do have one made in 1946 by 'HAFDASA' which was the then old Hispano Suiza Manufacturing Plant, or the Manufactory they built for making Automobiles and Trucks and Tractors which later made mostly Parts and other items, and also Firearms.


These were very high quality Pistols, and are well thought of.

I am very happy with the one I have.


Image showing one which appears identical to mine -

http://www.sightm1911.com/1911pix/historic/ballester-molina_2.jpg

&

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano_Argentina_F%C3%A1brica_de_Autom%C3%B3viles

postalnut25
May 29, 2010, 08:31 AM
" I got a kid in there and over there in the sand box. They are now letting our kids use Glocks if they qualify with them. "

Doc,
I agree with almost every post of yours that I've read. But that quote just isn't true. I'm in the sandbox right now. I have my M16A4 and my M9. Some of the high-speed guys have 1911s and the CID guys that are with us have Sigs. That's all I've seen here in uniform. The only Glocks I've seen here are with some of the civilian investigators and the FBI guys we occasionally work with.

Nine Lives
May 29, 2010, 09:10 AM
Also chiming in from Afghanistan to say I've never seen a Glock besides with civilian security/federal agents.

On topic, I have a bersa 380 which I got for very cheap, it shoots decently though is very snappy, it's not nearly as refined as my PPK. I gave it to my girlfriend before I deployed because the hospital she works at is in a terrible part of town. for the price they are great little pistols, not as elegant or as much detail in their engineering but you get what you pay for and it's always been reliable for me and hopefully will be for her too.

Nine Lives
May 29, 2010, 09:16 AM
Sorry for double post

jonmerritt
May 29, 2010, 09:37 AM
Wow another thread that dumps on something that doesn't have enough $$$ in front of it's name. I love to take my crappy cheap (ugly) Hi-Point to the range, the Glockers sure look at it alot. I think they fear it, not enough $$$ in it's name. And they ask to try it out!!!

JR47
May 29, 2010, 09:43 AM
Doc, your article says nothing about "sub-machinegun ammo", mentioning only the dearth of JHP choices in 9x18.

It also mentions the lousy trigger pull of the PA-64, improved in the follow-on PA-83.

There is also no mention of any "great Russian steel".

Colt licensed production of the 1911A1 to the Argentines in the 1930s. The Ballester-Molina certainly had no metallurgical issues, nor did the HAFDASA, a follow-on design that simplified production. Both have been available as surplus in the past 20 years, and all of the examples that I've seen were equal to anything made in the USA.

The IJ-70 is a commercial version of the Makarov. It differs in the addition of adjustable sights, making it importable as a new gun, under the GCA of 1968 criteria. It's made by a company that also produces the Russian Makarov on the same lines. If anything, commercial guns out of Russia tend to be BETTER fitted and finished than the military weapons.

I rarely make blanket statements about manufacturers of guns. Especially when they have been successful for decades. The Brazilian Police, using Imbel and Taurus as issue firearms, are some of the most blooded LEOs in the world. They routinely run operations against para-military gangs using military-grade weaponry, and explosives. If their guns were so poorly made, they would have died en masse over the years. They haven't. Check SWAT Magazine for reviews on their training, operations, and weapons.

armoredman
May 29, 2010, 10:11 AM
I am a CZ man, love the guns. I also have a little Taurus CIA titantium that rides in a pocket holster. It needed work when I got it, but works great now. Had a Taurus 357 20 years ago, used it as a trade in on the first Witness 40 that made it to America. Traded it only because I didn't have enough cash, not that there was anything wrong with the revolver.
My stepdad had an OLD Taurus, the on where the cyclinder flutes had ridges. THAT was a pile of junk. We replaced that with a Smith Model 10.
I have fired a Ballister-Rigaud and Ballister Molina, seemed to be very well made, albeit hard used guns, wouldn't mind owning one, but they are harder to come by nowadays.
My $.02 on South American made firearms.

MCgunner
May 29, 2010, 10:44 AM
Steel is graded, ya know, no matter if you're in Switzerland or BFE. It has standard grades world wide. I'm no metallurgist, but what don't ya back up your "bad steel" claims with the grades they actually use? If you're going to say they all use "bad steel", that don't mean a thing to me.

High Point doesn't even USE steel in the frame! It uses POT METAL, more properly zinc alloy, so I find it strange that a guy that thinks Bersa uses "bad steel" would go for a pot metal gun. :rolleyes:

Nasty
May 29, 2010, 10:52 AM
This thread has some really silly posts in it...

On topic, I shoot a Bersa UC .45 in stainless and it's as fine a weapon as any I own.

I also have the usual assortment of Mak, PA63, Glock, S&W, Kel-Tec etc...

MCgunner
May 29, 2010, 10:57 AM
I don't own a Bersa and, in fact, I've never fired one. I just get tired of perpetual bashers, especially when their arguments are so flawed. I've never actually heard the "bad steel" argument on anything, but Chinese imports, and heck, I've owned and fired two Norinco SKSs for 20 years, so it don't make sense even there!

MCgunner
May 29, 2010, 11:42 AM
But, finishing does not mean strength of steel even if what you say is true. Finish, like painting a car, is a product of preparation as much as anything else. Travel whatever road you want, but I can voice my opinions, too, ya know. I've been shooting for 50 years now and have formed a few opinions in that time. For now, probably not for long, I have freedom of speech. Shoot what ya want and I'll shoot what I want.

I do own 6 Brazilian guns and find them all worthy of ownership. They are all good shooters. I own lots of Rugers, they get bashed for their investment casting which I also find ridiculous. I own a Smith M10 and have owned a M19 and M1917 and while I liked 'em and particularly like that old M10, I don't find them that superior to my Taurus 66s. In fact, my 4" 66 out shoots any of those Smiths. It will group 1" at 25 yards off the sand bags with its favorite loads. None of the Smiths would/will do that well, not quite. I do sort of prefer accurate guns and those I've kept over the years have this one thing in common for the most part. In one way or another, their accuracy has impressed me, within the category of the gun at least. I reckon there are a few I can't say that about, but out of 25 handguns, there WILL be exceptions. :D

Mitch from LA
May 29, 2010, 12:02 PM
Have you ever noticed that if you say something negative about a Bersa or a 1911 they come at you from all angles like you are a leper. Hey guys, we all don't have to like the same guns.
Look buddy, if you make blanket insults about a platform many people love and trust their lives too with little evidence to back it up, they're going to refute you. The thread title is about liking South American pistols, and you came in and dumped all over them. What did you think was going to happen?

Mitch from LA
May 29, 2010, 12:44 PM
First off, no one attacked you personally. People merely refuted your ideas.

Secondly, I wear panties strictly for comfort. Don't be fooled by my frilly undies, I'm all man.

Third, how exactly is anything in this thread omniscient? Are you implying that myself and others are somehow all-knowing.

Fourth, how do you know so much about the molecular structure of SA steel? I'm legitimately curious. Do you have extensive experience using a mass spectrometer or a nuclear magnetic resonance imager?

danez71
May 29, 2010, 12:46 PM
Steel is an alloy derived from a process; not a raw material.

Different processes can be used which produce various qualities; cast vs forged for example.

As with everything manufactured, it is the QC of the combined processes/process techniques and the raw materials used that determine quality; not its location of origin.

danez71
May 29, 2010, 01:09 PM
The iron ore has varying degrees based on geography sir. That's why crushed De Soto and Plymouths make Toyotas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel

:rolleyes:

There are different processes that increase the purity of iron ore as well.

Lets not forget the novel notion of import/export.

Mitch from LA
May 29, 2010, 01:14 PM
No it wouldn't, since I was describing the apparatus.

gmh1013
May 29, 2010, 01:28 PM
My Taurus PT917C has been perfect in over 2k rounds and is one of my fav auto's
The Rossi broke the firing pin twice and I sold it but the Taurus has been 100 percent reliable.
The Rossi had a great DA pull too which is really to bad the the weak link was the pin because for 230 bucks it was a great buy....sold it to fund SP101
which is my fav snub now.
EVERYBODY should have a SP101....the more you shoot it the smoother it gets.
My Bersa 380 which had gone 1k rounds is now jamming and I have to figure out whats wrong with it....it went from 100 perent to jam every mag now....
May have to sent it back to Bersa.

danez71
May 29, 2010, 03:47 PM
Glock Doc said - Care to elaborate or shall we just speculate some more!

Ahhh... dont be too dismissive too soon please.

Sure, Id love to elborate.

Iron in its most pure form is listed in the perodic table of elements as "Fe". When its mined, it is not in its more pure form. There are other minerals and impuities that have attached to it.

Like oxygen (periodic symbol "O") there are different levels of purities and grades. Theres welding grade oxygen... and there is medical grade oxygen... as two examples.

If you prefer wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_ore is a good place to start. It explains iron purity and what other elements are typical to have bonded with it by the time the iron ore is mined.

It terms of purifying iron ore http://www.surfacechemistrynews.com/improving-the-iron-ore-quality-by-flotation/ is a fairly simple read. It says in part:

To meet this growth the mining industry invests in both new production capacity and in processes to improve the quality of the Iron ore concentrate (magnetite/hematite).

Low grade iron ores has to be processed to a certain level of iron grade to meet the requirements from the steel producers.

Magnetic separation is used in the concentrating process of magnetite. There is always a mineralogical limit which sets the possible maximum iron grade; this differs between ores from different deposits. In many cases magnetic separation is not enough to give the wanted quality of iron ore concentrate.

Silica and phosphorus are the two most important impurities to be reduced. Especially phosphorus has to be reduced to a very low level.

Flotation is a well known technique which gives the opportunity to get further purification. Silicates are removed with cationic surfactants and anionic surfactants are used for the removal of phosphorus minerals.


No speculation needed... the facts should be enough.

76shuvlinoff
May 29, 2010, 04:19 PM
Quote:
And as far as "getting what you pay for in this world," my buddy has a Harley Davidson he bought for $16k that's in the shop all the time (he's probably spent another $16k in maintenance). While my 2003 Suzuki Volusia (purchased used in 2006 for $5k) just gets regular oil changes and has never let me down. I guess my experiences are unusual..
Yeah, it was shovel heads in the late 70s that broke me of that belief years ago. If all you go by is cost of the product, heck, you're a sucker for a scam. It was also HD that broke me of any tendency to wave the flag and "buy American". I buy what works for me, thanks. Besides, HD doesn't make anything I really like and Buell went belly up for a reason.


Interesting, as I anticipate yet another flawless ride with my wife on my 34 year old shovel this evening. If anyone has one of this machines still with factory QC issues I would suspect they have the wrong mechanic. If anyone has a 34 year old Suzie I'd be interested in seeing it. I for one am not so closed minded I couldn't appreciate it regardless of lineage.

MCgunner
May 29, 2010, 04:56 PM
There you go again inserting words and spinning. I never mentioned the STRENGTH of the steel. As I recall, I only stated Quality as to molecular structure in bringing up a good blue surface.

Well, heck, I don't worry about looks that much. Strength is important. My 66s are good lookin' guns, though. Well, one of 'em is nickel finished. They have a slightly stronger design in the forcing cone area than my K frames, round forcing cone, no flat. I like that.

BTW, off topic reversion to eastern block guns discussion, but I shot the P64 with the new Marschel grips on it today, 50 rounds and my hand doesn't hurt. Those grips help with the felt recoil quite a bit. 50 bucks well spent and they're very nicely grained walnut which is pleasant to look at.

SharpsDressedMan
May 29, 2010, 05:10 PM
I think Springfield Armory guns are forged frames and slides from Brazil, and assembled and finished here. http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/matquig/DSC05712.jpg

modifiedbrowning
May 29, 2010, 05:31 PM
Four Bersa/Firestorms here and the only problems I ever had was that the .22 was a little finicky when new, now I use Minimags and no problems.
My fullsize T9 has over 5K through it, so I seriously doubt anyone's claims of "soft metal" that never seem to be backed by any proof. Also, 1K of the rnds through the T9 were with no cleaning or lube, so the reliability is there.

JR47
May 29, 2010, 05:57 PM
Don't you guys know better than to expect actual conversation here? So, what, pray tell, makes the steel of Russia and now Switzerland, so much better? That it will take bluing? A form of controlled rusting? My, that's much more important than the ultimate strength of the material, right?

High-Point uses Zamak in their construction. Not steel. So, why is that better than South American steel?

I still haven't seen anything but overall statements from you. Nothing has been supported by factual, information.

The article about the 9x18 sub-machinegun ammunition is by Peter Kokalis this time, and was in the August 1, 2006 issue of Shotgun News. He isn't selling anything, either.

FYI, while nobody, 20 years ago, liked the Norinco 1911 clones, time has proven their metal to be extremely durable. They are accepted by some of the best regarded gunsmiths around as suitable for a build.

All in all, after this many pages, I cannot find anything substantial to the claim that South American guns are poorly fitted, or made of inferior steel. If that's your opinion, so be it. However, nothing proves it.

Mitch from LA
May 29, 2010, 07:04 PM
Don't you guys know better than to expect actual conversation here? So, what, pray tell, makes the steel of Russia and now Switzerland, so much better? That it will take bluing? A form of controlled rusting? My, that's much more important than the ultimate strength of the material, right?

High-Point uses Zamak in their construction. Not steel. So, why is that better than South American steel?

I still haven't seen anything but overall statements from you. Nothing has been supported by factual, information.

The article about the 9x18 sub-machinegun ammunition is by Peter Kokalis this time, and was in the August 1, 2006 issue of Shotgun News. He isn't selling anything, either.

FYI, while nobody, 20 years ago, liked the Norinco 1911 clones, time has proven their metal to be extremely durable. They are accepted by some of the best regarded gunsmiths around as suitable for a build.

All in all, after this many pages, I cannot find anything substantial to the claim that South American guns are poorly fitted, or made of inferior steel. If that's your opinion, so be it. However, nothing proves it.
After perusing the autoloaders forum it seems that nonsense in this thread is not an isolated phenomenon. By the way Sharps Dressed Man I'm digging those grips on the Springer

mustang_steve
May 29, 2010, 07:47 PM
Doc, there's inexpensive and then there's cheap.

My own firearm is one many would consider junk being as some call it a "KT knock-off"....but...tighter patterns than the 3-4 Glock 26s I've tried out, takes any ammo I throw at it, even oddball stuff like jacketed semi-wadcutter 9mm (long story...).

The only thing I have to gripe about really is the pistol chews through guide rod assemblies every 400rds, but with the guide rods being free (call and they'll ship you one), no problems there. That's the same thing that people are complaining about on a particular $900 subomcpact 9mm....except it's gnawing through them even faster.

Sure the visual quality is lacking, but the actual quality is there. I'm not sure on Bersa as I haven't had any serious experience with them yet...but from what I've seen they seem to be competant firearms. Just not as polished a product as something 2-3x the price.

Cheap on the other hand....Think Jennigs/Lorcin/Davis.

Nasty
May 29, 2010, 08:35 PM
Internet Special Olympics folks...easiest to pass on this thread.

saturno_v
May 29, 2010, 09:24 PM
South American steel is very poor quality and you can even see it's pores quality just by taking any abrasive to it. Just try to blue South American steel you will see the poor quality real quick.......................and other nonsense too numerous to mention.....................


Bersa are inexpensive not cheap.

They are very durable and reliable, field tested pistols used by several police agencies and military forces.

Yes you are right, the finishing (not the fit) is not top notch...this has nothing to do with the quality of the steel or its durability (Bersa frames are not made of steel, by the way, but Ergal, the same alloy used by Beretta).

Nowadays with our integrated logistic world you do not know where the steel (and other material) come from inside a factory located in a specific area of the world....so saying that "South American steel is low quality" is incredibly silly.

Taurus had some problems in the past but now they did get things right finally.

There are Ballester-Molina pistols that are highly sought after pieces, extremely strong and reliable.

Doc Glock....please do not waste precious server space (and poster's time) with comments like that....and someone with that nickname..."Doc Glock"....is not entitled to talk about quality firearms anyway :evil::D:neener:....a Bersa is definitely not inferior in quality to Gaston tupperware...

Mastiff
May 29, 2010, 10:55 PM
Let me introduce you to Llama then. I make my statements as one who has refinished many firearms with hot bath bluing. South American steel is terrible to work with......that's why they parkerize them sir or undercoat them with copper so they can nickle plate them. Chinese steel isn't much better either in my opinion.

See there are people who only shoot guns and other people who like to take them apart and work with them. All part of the same hobby just different approaches. There are many roads that lead to the same place. Just because I will not travel yours does not mean I won't get there as well.
You are aware that the Llama is not a South American pistol, aren't you?
Pretty much makes this post meaningless.
I own 2 South American pistols, a Colt Sistema and an FM-90. No problem with the steel in either of them. I also own a SPANISH Star Super A. Nothing wrong with the steel there either.

Oyeboten
May 30, 2010, 12:02 AM
It may make sense to regard individual Make-Model Pistols individually, rather than to regard all Pistols of any Given Country as somehow being identical-enough as to be included in the same breath.

Quality of Steel, or Metalurgy of whatever Alloy, quality of fit and finish, quality of design and engineering, or other attributes will vary from Make to Make, era to era, Model to Model.

MICHAEL T
May 30, 2010, 12:56 AM
I see you still attacking Bersa being ban off 4 boards this year has taught you nothing
You misstatements and hate for one brand of pistol is be on belief. I almost for got you hate 1911 about as much also Said you carried you little Russian gun in Nam because the 1911 didn't work . Did I get all that correct.

Have a good run here the people will see your true colors in a short time.

Johnny Guest
May 30, 2010, 01:06 AM
The lengths to which some will go to boost their brand of choice, and to attack other individuals' favorites always amazes me. Have your say, if you wish, but, please let it go without trying to bludgeon everyone else into thinking like you do.

Okay, some of you like Fords and others like Chevys, too.

I think this topic has been beaten around for long enough.

CLOSED

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