[Hk Paul]

I have noticed quite a fiew are forsale now. Even with kosher HP ammo. But even more interesting is that they are offering them with 10rnd mags. Are thease civvie ok now or somthing?

[Rangegod]

Saw them for sale at the Ft. Laud gun show Saturday. Dealer had guns and good supply of ammo on display. Price was posted at over 1K (1100?). Not my thing, passed without further investigation.

JAC

[Pylon]

I sure would love to get my hands on one of these. Don't know how i could ever afford it, but wishful thinking ya know?

[Lightsped]

What is so good bout the Five Seven to warrant a $1100 price tag? Was it new?

[Frohickey]

Is that a .224 caliber?
What do you do for brass?
What do you do for bullets?
Sounds like a Tokarev to me.

[TheeBadOne]

Doesn't get a 2nd look from me...

[Jake 98c/11b]

As availibility goes up I expect the price to go down. I have done some shooting with them and was somewhat impressed. I wrote about my initial experience on the old TFL, I originally thought it was a solution in search of a problem but I think I was overly harsh. If the mag ban expires I will try to add one to the collection.

[Jake 98c/11b]

Frohicky, it is .224 so bullets are not an issue. Brass and ammo are available. Think of it as a Tok that weighs half as much with a 20 round mag, better sights and ergonomics.

[Coronach]

No, that would be a magwell that can accept a 20 round mag.

At least for the next 200+ days (hope! hope!)

Mike

[clubsoda22]

If the AWB dies, then i'll want one...though HP ammo does defeat the purpose of the gun.

Heared they have horrible triggers. Anyone care to comment?

[Jake 98c/11b]

Clubsoda, the trigger is not what I would call bad but it is heavy. The one I have done the most shooting with had the 'tactical' trigger, the lighter one, and it was about 8 pounds. How do you say the HP ammo defeats the purpose? What purpose and what do you view as the tradeoff?

Coronach, any weapon that accepts a detachable magazine can use a 20+ round mag. Lets not argue semantics, I think anyone with an IQ over 60 could figure out what I was saying.

For those with an IQ less than 60 I will explain;

As it compares to the Tokarev it has, by design, a 20 round mag, better ergonomics, better sights (though not great) and enhanced penetration. The pistol was designed around a cartridge that was created to defeat body armor.

[Beav]

It would need to come down to around the $600 range for me to even consider it especially since the ammo is expensive as well.

If all I can have is HP rounds and 10 round capacity then I would rather get something else that is cheaper and functions better in that configuration.

[keederdag]

I'm sure it would be illegal; but steal core .224 bullets are very availible. Some I'm gonna take a huge leap and say if the guns get prevalent, there will be loads of ap ammo around too. If It was about 1/4 scale, I'd be interested an then some.:D

[Nightcrawler]

With HP ammo, you're not going to get the armor penetration that the 5.7x28mm FN SS190 round was designed for.

Without HP ammo, you've got something that has wound ballistics similar to .22 magnum, though with better penetration of the skull.

Since muggers rarely wear flak jackets or kevlar helmets, you're probably better off with a more conventional round for personal defense.

Still, it might be an interesting thing to play with.

[Jake 98c/11b]

While it may not punch a hole in a kevlar helmet at 100m it will still do a number on a vest at 15m, I can say that from experience (this being the HP). The terminal ballistics of the AP is supposed to be decent because the projectile is base heavy. When the bullet hits soft tissue it will yaw, that little bullet traveling sideways is what does the damage.

I am not convinced the terminal ballistics will be all that great but it should be better than the .22 mag. I am guessing the 40gr HP would be the bullet of choice (commercial components), just a guess.

[Frohickey]

Tissue damage is caused by the bullet crushing tissue, and thats related to the frontal area anyway. How about wadcutter .224 bullets? ;)

[wildehond]

For hi velocity bullets to do their job you need something if excess of 1600 fps in the tissue. This "bursts" the cell walls and destroys tissue. It will destroy the lung or hart if it penetrates it. This is why rifle bullets give a better one shot incapacitaion. That is the other reason why this new trend is being investigated for LE and military use. This is the only way to get the so called hydro shock effect.

wildehond

[Nightcrawler]

Hydrostatic shock is a function of momentum, not just velocity. It's essentially the "splash" a projectile makes when striking the largely fluid human body, much like throwing a rock into a puddle. You can get an equally impressive splash throwing a small rock fast or dropping a big rock slowly.

It takes a lot, though, to be able to cause serious damage through hydrostatic shock, at least in something as large as a human.

Increasing bullet mass increases momentum faster than increasing velocity.

Your best bet remains, of course, a heavy bullet at high velocity. 10mm, .45 Super.

:D

[wildehond]

OK, so why does a 5.56 mm at 55 gr stop so well.

The 10mm and 45 super round are to slow to cause hydro static shock. The wave front travelling through the tissue has to move fast enough to break the cell walls. 1200 fps is not fast enough.

wildehond

[Nightcrawler]

OK, so why does a 5.56 mm at 55 gr stop so well.

It's a source of heated contention as to whether it does. The main reason, though, is that at velocities above 2700 feet per second, the bullet will often fragment, creating a larger wound area. This comes, of course, at the cost of penetration, something that is critical for the a battlefield rifle round.

You do indeed get hydrostatic shock in rifle rounds; it's why they make such nasty wounds, especially when they hit bone.

But too light of a bullet, even at high velocity, won't have enough energy to do it.

At the same token, a heavy bullet at too low of a velocity won't do it either.

As I said, it's a function of MOMENTUM and ENERGY, not just velocity. I don't know where you get this 1600fps number from. A 50 grain projectile at that speed will do a lot less damage than a 250 grain projectile, and a lot more damage than a 25 grain projectile. You need both mass and velocity to get energy.

And, from what I'm given to understand, slap a 135 grain bullet in there and you can easily get 1600 fps out of a 10mm handgun. It's gonna have some kind of muzzle blast, though.

[wildehond]

"I don't know where you get this 1600fps number from."

That and the 5.56mm I have seen at work.

The bullet needs 1600 fps after it has travelled 10 yards gone through skin and bone , clothing, webbing and what ever might be in the way.

wildehond

[Frohickey]

gut feel says that the magic 1600FPS number has more to do with the bullet composition rather than energy. At a certain FPS, the standard copper-jacketted lead bullet tends to fragment, causing more tissue damage than if the bullet stayed intact. Of course, that is for thin-skinned animals.

[George Hill]

I'm sure there are some folks that are just overly impressed with this new system. But for the life of me, I can not understand why.
I am wondering just what this thing is really for, other than the obvious means of seperating people from money. I'm down with FN and love just about everything they have done... save this.
20 round magazines? You'll need every round.
Designed to defeat body armour? Nifty... but if that's all it does, I'm not impressed. AP ammo really doesn't have a good track record at stopping an adversary. The 5.56MM has a bad enough rap as it is, but that stuff is heck and gone better than this little FN'pill.
Better than a .22 Magnum? Maybe it is. But is it that much better than .17HMR? .17 Can do that pass through kevlar trick as well. I've seen it. But I wouldn't want to get into a fight with one. Because after that heavy layer of body armour, you have the normal every day human anatomy to defeat and that requires your normal every day human anatomy defeating requirements. These do not change when the subject is wearing a heavy layer of vest.
I think for all around use, if I pop a thug a few times in the chest and he isn't flinching... I'll lower my point of aim and go for the pelvis. Take that out from under the target and it goes down. See my Magic Bullet article on MadOgre.com in the weapons section.
But if I am really wanting to have a weapon that will do this kinda stuff.
A hundred bucks on a CZ-52 and another $6.50 for a box of shells will go a long way to making me more comfortable around Kevlar. 20 rounds vs 8? I'll buy 4 CZ-52's and do some Chow Yun Fat style New York Reloads and take that left over $700 bucks and buy myself something nice... like a new Springfield.

Then again there is another way of going about this stopping an armoured threat thing. And it will give you good stopping power after it goes through the armour... For about the same money as that F'n FN I could get me a BFR chambered for .454 Casull or .460 or .480 or .500 S&W Magnum... Hey... even if it doesn't penetrate - its awefully hard to stay motivated with a crushed ribcage.
But come on now. For this kinda jingle - you can get a nice little SBR that would do the job better, and from longer range and maybe even save you some coin.
I really see no reason for this F'n 5-7.
Not only that, but I can't stand the way they write the name. "Five-seveN"? That's retarded. Like they really need to highlight the letters "FN?" Come on now.
Let's look at the gun it's self. Whats up with that monorail frame? Doens't promote the feeling of strength does it? What's up with the "Designed by Dewalt" look? Come on, my Cordless Drill looks cooler than that. And it has a better than 20 minutes worth of drilling for one reload of the rechargble battery.

I'll pass on this one.

[George Hill]

OK, so why does a 5.56 mm at 55 gr stop so well.


If it did, why is the Army looking at 6.8MM as the new rifle caliber?

[Blueduck]

I've officially retired from the stopping power wars as unproductive... but ;)

I think it's interesting to note that it seems that even among the 5.56's fans both millitary and civillian, there now seems a sizable contingent that have a concern that the short bbl'ed versions (14" and less) don't produce enough velocity to do whatever it is they belive causes the round to work effectivly.

Now the PDW's are using a round that produces even LESS velocity than the short 5.56's :scrutiny:

[Aikibiker]

If the stuff I have heard about the trajectory is true and they give it a decent trigger it might make a fun long range plinker.

Plus once the ban goes away a semiauto P90 with a 16 in barrel to get around the NFA sounds like it would be a lot of fun to play around with at the range.

I think the future of civilian sales for the Five-seveN (you are right Mr. Hill that does seem retarded) will be directly influenced by the AWB and whether or not it dies a much deserved death.

[wildehond]

The five seven is intended as a miltary cartridge for a very specific purpose. I was trying to give the reasons why it was choosen for that purpose. Personally I carry a 1911 .45 series 70 for the intended purpose I use it for.

wildehond

[snubby]

The letters FN are highlighted because they represent the initials of the manufacturer: Fabrique Nationale (or so I've heard).

[George Hill]

Yes, Snubby... we know that...
But it's still retarded.

[Hellbore]

If you ask me, this is even more retarded: From FNH's web page, about the Five-seveN:

"The 5.7x28mm ammunition features a lead-free projectile to eliminate environmental concerns."

Ooo! What a great feature! :rolleyes: I hate the way the world is going.