RRA vs. Stag


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Phillip H
May 30, 2010, 06:21 PM
I am looking to buy a AR15A2.

I have narrowed my choices down to Rock River Arms, and Stag Arms.

Is one a little better then the other?

Thanks,
Phillip

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Mags
May 30, 2010, 06:23 PM
RRA maks a fine rifle but their customer service leaves alot to be desired. I can't speak for Stag but I would go with the Stag after the bad taste in my mouth from RRA.

12131
May 30, 2010, 06:28 PM
Is one a little better then the other?
Probably not really.
Sorry to hear about your bad experience with RRA CS, The Real Mags. I had to use their CS once, when my RRA AR's hammer broke in half. Called them up, got it shipped to them, and got it back within the week. No charge for anything. I would say that's pretty good CS.

M1key
May 30, 2010, 06:48 PM
I own both, Stag M4 upper/Double Star lower and RRA middie complete rifle. Both reliable and accurate.

45Badger
May 30, 2010, 07:29 PM
I own both guns in 16 m4 profile. RRA fit and finish is better, RRA trigger better, RRA accuracy (supported by bag) is better. Even up pricing, I 'd take the RRA. $200 difference? the Stag is fine.

BridgeTooFar
May 30, 2010, 07:29 PM
Love my Stag 15L (being a lefty, the choices were a little slim, but I really do love that rifle). No experience (short of fondling them in the store) with the RRA's.

jmr40
May 30, 2010, 07:32 PM
I have one of each. Never had the 1st problem with either. It is hard to compare them since mine are set up as polar opposites. The Rock River has a heavy target barrel with a match trigger. The Stag is a 16" thin barrel with telescoping stock. The Rock River is more accurate, but it is supposed to be.

kwelz
May 30, 2010, 09:16 PM
What made you narrow it down to those 2? Have you looked at BCM? S&W? Daniel Defense?
Any of those will give you a much better gun for the same or less money.

LeontheProfessional
May 30, 2010, 09:25 PM
I have a Stag flat top upper on a RRA 2-stage lower and love it. Get the RRA 2-stage trigger. You will not be disappointed.

cbrgator
May 30, 2010, 09:27 PM
I have the Stag Model 2. Has been a fine shooter.

bpl
May 30, 2010, 09:39 PM
I own both guns in 16 m4 profile. RRA fit and finish is better, RRA trigger better, RRA accuracy (supported by bag) is better. Even up pricing, I 'd take the RRA. $200 difference? the Stag is fine.

Do you have the basic trigger in both, or do you have the RRA 2-stage trigger in the RRA and a basic trigger in the Stag?

bpl
May 30, 2010, 09:45 PM
What made you narrow it down to those 2? Have you looked at BCM? S&W? Daniel Defense?
Any of those will give you a much better gun for the same or less money.

I find it doubtful that you will find a BCM or Daniel Defense rifle for the same or less money. S&W you might, but then again its at the same mid-level quality tier as a RRA or Stag. For a time after their introduction of the M&P15, CMT/Stag was making the lowers for S&W and I would bet they are still supplying parts to S&W (and probably RRA as well).

benEzra
May 30, 2010, 10:30 PM
I'm not sure about Stag, but if you get a Rock River, you might want to plan to have a reputable AR armorer or builder check the staking on your gas key screws and stake the castle nut. RRA typically does a rather superficial job of the former and doesn't do the latter; the castle nut is IIRC held in place with blue loctite instead, which can loosen with heat and time.

AR-15 Rep
May 30, 2010, 11:51 PM
You also may want to check out the chambering info, either 5.56 NATO or .223 Wylde.

WYcoyote
May 31, 2010, 12:59 AM
What made you narrow it down to those 2? Have you looked at BCM? S&W? Daniel Defense?
Any of those will give you a much better gun for the same or less money.
+1
And with the addition of Spikes Tactical.

Gordon
May 31, 2010, 01:14 AM
Seen lots of both and both seem very good. The Rock Rivers SEEM to lock up to uppers tighter for some reason.

benzy2
May 31, 2010, 01:23 AM
I like RRA. There trigger is a big step up from the basic trigger. Their barrels seem to shoot very well and have a guarantee behind them that they will shoot well. 3/4-1 MOA depending on the specific rifle. I have a Stag (though its a 16" carbine) and its a fine rifle. While maybe not living up to the standards of BCM it will never show the difference in my ownership. I don't run them hard and give it a once over after each range trip. Still if I had the option to trade for an RRA I would do it. I think their barrels or maybe just their chamber reamers are a step above Stag. Stag's staking is a bit better than RRA but that is a simple, easy, and cheap fix. I rather the more accurate of the group and RRA has shown to be the leader of the two.

rangerruck
May 31, 2010, 02:27 AM
just picked up a stag leftie, fully floated , full quad rails, along with full top rail, plus a 140 dollar backup/flip up rear site, for 1000 bucks. a Supergreat rifle; I say better than rra.
And according to how made, by the ar rankings list, just a tad better made.

Rokman
May 31, 2010, 02:58 AM
They are both good and either will probably serve you well. I own two RRA ARs and they are very tight and good shooters but their staking is very poor. Good news is, that is easily fixed.

winknplink
May 31, 2010, 10:09 AM
What made you narrow it down to those 2? Have you looked at BCM? S&W? Daniel Defense?
Any of those will give you a much better gun for the same or less money.

That's debatable. Better gun? Possibly? Same money or even close? I highly doubt it.

Not everybody needs top o the line, or even middle of the line. Local availability could also be an issue. Shipping an already higher-priced weapon just makes the cost go up that much higher when, in some cases, good enough is good enough.

kwelz
May 31, 2010, 12:26 PM
THere is no Possibly to it. They are far superior guns in both Material and build quality.
As for Cost,
The RRA is 980 for the 20inch A2
BCM would be:
Upper assembly + Bolt $580.00
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M16-Government-20-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-gov-20.htm

Lower Receiver with A2 Stock $360.00

Add in the various bits you want and you have just slightly more than the RRA and once again a MUCH better gun.

Good enough, isn't.

benzy2
May 31, 2010, 08:20 PM
How do BCM rifle shoot? I know how the RRA rifle shoot from experience and from that of others I know. I don't care if parts pass the chart test near as much as I do with how the target looks at the end of the day. I must admit, when it comes to shooting, I do 1% small game hunting and 99% paper punching so for me the more accurate of the two is the better rifle, not which one has the most check marks on a chart. A 2MOA stag means as much to me as a 2MOA BCM, regardless of what a chart says is the better rifle. I really haven't seen any statements on how BCM full length uppers shoot, but I haven't looked. So will the BCM hold 1MOA or less? Will it hold 1/2MOA? If I were looking for a rugged and reliable carbine the BCM line certainly is priced well, but at the end of the day, I've never had a failure with any of my ARs yet and they have all been middle or low tier rifles so I'm not convinced I'll ever see a gain using an upper tier rifle.

benEzra
May 31, 2010, 09:10 PM
Rock River offers accuracy guarantees for most of their rifles, with the guaranteed accuracy depending on the model. Some of the carbines are guaranteed 1.5 MOA with premium ammo, and some of the varmint/match models are guaranteed 0.5 MOA, as I recall.

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=213

BCM has a definite edge in reliability and durability, but RRA may have a slight edge in accuracy if you get one of the accurized models. Do be aware that 0.5 MOA will likely come at the cost of reduced ammo compatibility (most match chambers are .223, though you could try a Wylde chamber) and somewhat reduced reliability.

Welding Rod
May 31, 2010, 09:11 PM
I have a 20" BCM upper, a couple of their bolt carrier groups and charging handles.

The upper is OK. I haven't given it a serious accuracy test yet, I have only shot if for function checking, which was fine. My only comment so far is I would rather have the tigher headspacing of my RRAs. The BCM spits out brass that has stretched about .004" - .006" more than the brass coming out of any of my RRAs. The headspace must be at or near max on the BCM.... spent brass is show ~ + .008" on my RCBS Precision Mic and I assume there must be some spring back from the actually chamber dimensions. No check block for that on "the chart".

Seems odd to me they sell uppers and BCGs seperately instead of matched.

docpadds
May 31, 2010, 09:41 PM
We are dealers for both, but we sell a lot more Stags then RRA because the entry level guns are at a great price point for what you get. The RRA catalog is a lot bigger and has some higher end items in it.

I have not had to deal with RRA themselves much but Stag has a very small company feel to it, first name terms, easy to deal with etc...

zstephens13
May 31, 2010, 10:53 PM
Definitely Rock River. That trigger break so clean it almost still surprises me.

winknplink
June 1, 2010, 09:50 AM
Good enough, isn't.

Whatever you say, Gung Ho. :rolleyes:

Thanks for reminding me why I stopped coming here.

winknplink
June 1, 2010, 09:54 AM
I have a 20" BCM upper, a couple of their bolt carrier groups and charging handles.

The upper is OK. I haven't given it a serious accuracy test yet, I have only shot if for function checking, which was fine. My only comment so far is I would rather have the tigher headspacing of my RRAs. The BCM spits out brass that has stretched about .004" - .006" more than the brass coming out of any of my RRAs. The headspace must be at or near max on the BCM.... spent brass is show ~ + .008" on my RCBS Precision Mic and I assume there must be some spring back from the actually chamber dimensions. No check block for that on "the chart".

Simply not possible according to Azz. Get out of here with your objectivity, facts and reason. :D

kwelz
June 1, 2010, 11:10 AM
Thanks for reminding me why I stopped coming here.
Because you don't like facts?

Of course if being Snarky is more important to you than objectivity that is fine.

2 things about the chamber.
1: RRA doesn't use a 5.56 chamber. I don't reload but I assume that could have something to do with it.
2: If you feel there is something wrong with the BCM did you contact them? I bet Paul would take care of it with a quickness.

What ammo were you using, 5.56 or .223?

benEzra
June 1, 2010, 12:09 PM
1: RRA doesn't use a 5.56 chamber.
They do if you order a 5.56 chamber, but they also offer SAAMI .223 Remington and .223 Wylde chambers, and most of their match grade barrels are either regular .223 or Wylde. Chrome lining may also be available as an extra-cost option ($40 or so, IIRC).

HGUNHNTR
June 1, 2010, 12:36 PM
Good enough is good enough?

For whom?

Reminds me of the old quote, "penny wise, pound foolish"

SwampWolf
June 1, 2010, 04:43 PM
The RRA NM 2-stage trigger makes all the difference when choosing between the two imo.

JonB
June 2, 2010, 10:56 AM
1: RRA doesn't use a 5.56 chamber.

Weird. My RRA has a 5.56 chamber. Must be a factory screw up, eh? :-)

Either would be a fine choice. No need to consult the chart for a paper punchin' machine. Besides, last time I bothered to look at the chart it was for a 'standard' M4gery configuration.

RRA has a big catalog with a lot of options. Uppers/Lowers fit nice and tight and the finish is top notch. Some folks like to point out that the RRA isn't staked as well as it could be - so what? Do a search and you'll find plenty of examples of all brands that need a better stake job.

kwelz
June 2, 2010, 12:25 PM
JonB did you order it with a 5.56 chamber. Except for their match guns, RRA usually ships with a Wylde chamber.

benEzra
June 2, 2010, 12:47 PM
JonB did you order it with a 5.56 chamber. Except for their match guns, RRA usually ships with a Wylde chamber.
RRA ships however it is ordered by the distributor, but the default for their tactical/defensive-style rifles is a 5.56 NATO chamber, with Wylde and (AFAIK) SAAMI .223 available as options.


For example, the default page for the Elite CAR A4 (16" midlength):

http://www.rockriverarms.com/images/products/ela410.gif
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=219


The Entry Tactical:

http://www.rockriverarms.com/images/products/entry10.gif
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=217


Mid-Length A2/A4:

http://www.rockriverarms.com/images/products/mida2410.gif
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=224



All of the above come standard with the 5.56mm NATO chamber. On the other hand, the rifles aimed at Camp Perry style shooting, varmint hunting, etc. typically come standard with a Wylde chamber, though you can get 5.56mm NATO if you want it:

Standard A2/A4:

http://www.rockriverarms.com/images/products/stda2410.gif
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=225


Predator Pursuit Rifle:

http://www.rockriverarms.com/images/products/predp10m.gif
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=229


Et cetera.

kwelz
June 2, 2010, 01:34 PM
Ahh they have changed it then. Back when I used to be a distributor for them they shipped with Wylde chambers by default. I stand corrected.

JonB
June 2, 2010, 02:02 PM
I am guessing the Wylde chamber is an option you have to order now. I picked my RRA up at a local Sportsmans Warehouse. Found this info out on the web (RRA Barrel codes):

All 16" moly barrels have a NATO chamber, while the 20" moly and all stainless barrels have a Wylde chamber.

200 =moly CAR
200CL =Chrome-lined CAR
202 =moly R4
204 =Chrome-lined R4
205 =Chrome-lined light-weight R4, 1:7
206 =Stainless CAR
208 =16" varmint
210 =moly Mid
212 =Chrome-lined Mid
215 =Stainless Mid
218 =18" varmint
219 =Chrome-lined light-weight R4, 1:9
220 =moly Std (rifle)
221 =Chrome-lined Std (rifle)
222 =Stainless NM(rifle)
223 =Stainless NM (rifle), unthreaded
226 =20" varmint
228 =24" varmint (1:8)
229 =24" varmint (1:12)

There may be "S" & "C" after the numbers. The "S" is for stainless and the "C" is for chrome-lined.

atomd
June 2, 2010, 02:23 PM
You might want to look at the S&W. I remember seeing one company selling a model for $799 and it also had a bunch of mags with it and a rebate for some free pmags too. That's pretty hard to beat and the quality is really the same as the Stag or RRA. I'd pick Stag over RRA myself but I don't think there's a massive difference between the 2.

If you want to spend a bit more I'd probably go with the BCM. Or you could assemble one as you go with whatever parts you particularly like. Some parts matter more than others. I'd be pickier about the BCG than say which brand my stripped lower was (as long as it's made properly to spec of course).

Bartholomew Roberts
June 2, 2010, 04:50 PM
It is hard to keep up with all of the changes at each manufacturer. I'd basically consider these two manufacturers to be about equal - maybe a slight edge to Stag just because that is the rifle I've had direct experience with most recently and it was well built (carrier key staked, castle nut staked, good parts).

Double Naught Spy posted a thread at TFL with an RRA that had the cam slot in the bolt carrier milled .025" too short. The result was that the cam pin doesn't move far enough back that you can remove it from the bolt carrier. That strikes me as a really obvious manufacturing defect that should have been caught by the factory; but I don't think it represents the typical product RRA puts out.

My general advice is not to get too caught up in the brand name. Decide what features you want and then buy from the manufacturer who gives you the best combination of price and service for those features.

migkillertwo
June 2, 2010, 05:07 PM
NEITHER! GET A SPIKES!

http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=113&products_id=443&zenid=l5ellk3ntpp7f1mhhselek10a7

migkillertwo
June 2, 2010, 05:10 PM
That's debatable. Better gun? Possibly? Same money or even close? I highly doubt it.

Not everybody needs top o the line, or even middle of the line. Local availability could also be an issue. Shipping an already higher-priced weapon just makes the cost go up that much higher when, in some cases, good enough is good enough.

In the case of Stag arms, the price is about the same. But in terms of quality, BCM and DD and Spikes are much better. The bolts are HP tested, MP tested, and shot-peened. Also the barrels are made with 4150 CMV steel, unlike the 4140 CM steel used on the Stag and Rock River models. Oh, and the twist rate on most of the BCM, DD, and Spikes rifles are 1/7, not 1/9 unlike Stag and RRA.

Oh, and Spikes costs way less than Rock River.

SwampWolf
June 2, 2010, 07:22 PM
Oh, and the twist rate on most of the BCM, DD, and Spikes rifles are 1/7, not 1/9 unlike Stag and RRA.

My Rock River AR-15 has a 1:8 twist-and it's not a "special order".

CapnMorgan
June 2, 2010, 10:00 PM
I have a DPMS, an RRA, and an Armalite(Eagle). All set up a little different but all great. If your buying to shoot, have fun, modifiy to your likings, etc... I'd buy the cheaper one. They're all mil-spec and I have handled some stags, they seem just as good as the rest.


My DPMS was the cheapest and is my favorite M4A2 setup. I use it with a cmmg 22lr conversion and my Coastal Passport.
My RRA is a post ban(bought in 99') without bayo lug and non threaded, Standard A2 HBar.
The armalite is a build that I recently sold the upper. Was an M4A4 setup. I plan on a 20" flat top next.

CapnMorgan
June 2, 2010, 10:03 PM
I can't remeber what twist my rra is, The barrel has no markings. my dpms is 1-9

NWCP
June 3, 2010, 03:38 AM
I own both a Stag and an RRA. Never had an issue with either rifle, or customer service from either company. Both are fine rifles and I'd deal with either again in a heartbeat. In fact I'm thinking of a 6.8 SPC upper. I'd be hard pressed to pick between the two. The Stag is a piston gun and the RRA a DI. The RRA trigger is a nm whereas the Stag is their plain Jane. I hunt with the Stag and use the RRA for personal defense. It could have been the other way around as far as I'm concerned. Pricing is pretty close on both so money isn't a factor. You can't go wrong with either one. JMHO

RockyMtnTactical
June 3, 2010, 03:21 PM
Between the two, I prefer Stag.

Welding Rod
June 4, 2010, 01:30 AM
Regarding the BCM chamber, I don't think there is anything wrong with it, it just appears that the head space is pretty generous.... not something I like in a rifle. I reload and won't reuse brass that is getting stretch excessively when fired.

I shoot mostly Federal XM193 for plinking, and Hornady .223 75 grain TAP or Match for precision shooting.

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