Could someone explain the to me the Kahr/Moonie issue?


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c919
June 3, 2010, 01:50 AM
I did a search, but didn't get what I was looking for. Can someone just simply explain why a ton of folks feel disdain for Kahr Arms in relation to the "Moonies".

I was talking about Kahr to a fellow at the range when he burst into this whole racist rant about his hate for Kahr Arms and the moonies. His buddy chimed in to say that he'd take a stick over a "damn moonie gun" any day of the week.

So, without getting this thread closed, could someone explain the hatred?

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Dnaltrop
June 3, 2010, 01:52 AM
taken from Wikipedia, am guessing the gentleman doesnt like the Moon empire.

Kahr Arms is an American small arms manufacturer founded by Kook Jin "Justin" Moon (son of Unification Church founder Sun Myung Moon), who currently serves as CEO and President. It is owned by the Saeilo Corporation (pronounced say-low), a subsidiary of the Unification Church International holding company.[1]

The "moonies" have some interesting notes if you go through old news articles.

Did i keep it dry enough To remain safe?

David E
June 3, 2010, 02:09 AM
Turns out "Kook" is his first name....really.

c919
June 3, 2010, 02:12 AM
Yeah, but I'm still lost. This Moon guy definitely seems like a nut, but who cares?

Lots of people think Mormons are nuts, but could I care less. I love me some John M. Browning designs. A good gun is a good gun.

I'm just curious why this guy is so much worse Communists or Nazis....

harmonic
June 3, 2010, 02:14 AM
Dislike for the Moonie cult is not racism. The Unification church is a cult. Research the meaning of a cult. Then research Sun Yung Moon and his control over his followers.

That said, I'd own a Kahr if I ever felt the need, but I read their guns have a lot of problems.

Dnaltrop
June 3, 2010, 02:18 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f08clPMODw8

Easy enough to google other appearances/statements. but the coronation was an odd one.

Justin
June 3, 2010, 02:21 AM
Eh. So far as I've been able to determine, the Moonies hold some, er, unorthodox religious views, but don't seem to be possessed of an unusually malignant form of religiosity.

harmonic
June 3, 2010, 02:58 AM
don't seem to be possessed of an unusually malignant form of religiosity.

The founder himself was jailed in Korea for adultery. He preached "blood separation" where female members of his church were required to have sex with him, in order to cleanse the woman from the influence of satan.

He was also jailed in federal prison here in America for a year for income tax evasion.

The unification church is a cult. Read up on the characteristics of a cult to know what they do. They separate prospects from family and friends. They pressure the prospect to make an exclusive committment to the organization by depriving them of sleep and food. These are common brainwashing techniques.

Theologically, their doctrine is probably no more preposterous than half the "religions" in America. But that doesn't make them any less a cult, and their founder any less a scoundrel.

Still, I'd own one of their guns if someone wanted to give me one.

Dnaltrop
June 3, 2010, 03:03 AM
Getting senators to your event without them knowing why they're there is pretty damn slick no matter how you twist it though. This was the first time I'd seen them in the news.

Thank you wikipedia for condensing it tho.

Coronation
In 2004, at a March 23 ceremony in the Dirksen Senate Office Building, in Washington D.C. Moon crowned himself with what was called the "Crown of Peace." [58] United States Representative Danny K. Davis (D-Ill.) carried a pillow holding the ornate crown which Moon "snatched up".[59] Other law makers who attended included Senator Mark Dayton (D-Minn.), Representatives Roscoe Bartlett (R-Md.) and Elijah Cummings (D-Md.) , as well as former Representative Walter Fauntroy (D-D.C.) . Key organizers of the event included George Augustus Stallings, Jr., a controversial former Roman Catholic priest who had been married by Moon, and Michael Jenkins, the president of the American Unification Church at that time.[58]

Moon delivered a long speech in which he stated that he was

sent to Earth . . . to save the world's six billion people.... Emperors, kings and presidents . . . have declared to all Heaven and Earth that Reverend Sun Myung Moon is none other than humanity's Savior, Messiah, Returning Lord and True Parent.[58]
On June 27, 2004 the New York Times editorial board criticized the ceremony and the participation of congressional members.[59] The Associated Press reported that "Many of the congressional members in attendance have said they felt misled into making an appearance that later was used to promote Moon's Unification Church."[60] Some stated that they didn't expect a coronation but thought the awards dinner was only to honor activists from their home states as Ambassadors for Peace.[61]

DPris
June 3, 2010, 04:05 AM
One huge difference between a gun designed by John Browning & one sold by KAHR is that when you bought a Browning-branded product the profits did not go to a church-owned company. You buy a KAHR-branded product, the profits do.

Both religions, Mormon & Moonie, are considered cults by traditional definition and by popular view.
The Mormon church owns no firearms companies, and when you buy "Browning" you're not contributing to the advancement (directly or indirectly) of a cult.

Since many people see the Moonies as practitioners of bizarre religious doctrine, many choose not to buy KAHR products & express financial or tacit approval of the religion behind them.

Does that help?
Not knocking a choice to buy or not to buy, just trying to answer the question.

Denis

DeputyVaughn
June 3, 2010, 10:21 AM
I believe Moon also has a stake in Auto Ordinance, maker of the "Tommy" gun.

Scott

CoRoMo
June 3, 2010, 10:32 AM
Posts #8, #9, and #10 nail this one to the wall.

Personally speaking, I'll pass on the company and never own a Kahr for those very reasons alone.

If the OP couldn't care less, fine, nobody should try and make him think one way or the other.

shockwave
June 3, 2010, 11:11 AM
Wow! I had no idea Kahr was a Moonie front.

They are a dangerous and destructive cult, meeting all of these criteria (http://www.factnet.org/rancho5.htm). They specialize in using their followers as slave labor to take over entire industries by wiping out competitors. Building maintenance and sushi-grade fish supply are two examples. Until recently they owned the Washington Times, using it as a propaganda outlet for the weird, uber-right-wing beliefs of Sun Myung Moon.

I will never purchase a Kahr product.

JohnBT
June 3, 2010, 11:18 AM
"Since many people see the Moonies as practitioners of bizarre religious doctrine"

It's all too deep for me. I'm still trying to figure out why the Methodists made me drink grape juice at Communion and eat a little cracker/wafer/thingy. Weird.

John

FLAvalanche
June 3, 2010, 11:24 AM
Remembering that we have freedom OF religion and not a freedom FROM religion and considering they haven't flown any jet planes into big buildings, I don't have a problem with them and it's not going to stop me from purchasing a Kahr if I want to.

Boxhead
June 3, 2010, 11:34 AM
I have been thinking a Kahr for a carry gun actually. It is darn nice stuff and I will probably acquire one when I get home.

c919
June 3, 2010, 01:17 PM
Makes sense to me. Definitely a myriad of reasons not to support Kahr. I personally don't own any Kahr's. My PPS will do just about anything any a Kahr will, and look better doing it. :D

I did a bit more reading on this Moon guy, and yeah, he's true quack. Well, thanks for the input guys.

Correia
June 3, 2010, 01:19 PM
Both religions, Mormon & Moonie, are considered cults by traditional definition and by popular view.

Oh. Horse. Crap. And I only use the word crap because of the language filter.

I don't know anything about Moonies. Zip. Nada. I've had one Kahr PM9 for about four years, and it's been fine.

But I'm a Mormon, and I know a few Mormons. So by tradition and popular view, we're a cult? There's 13 million of us. We're one of the largest religions in the country. We live in every neighborhood, hold every job, and serve in every branch of the military. We've got writers, scientists, a bunch of astronauts, athletes, senators (including one particular scumbag), congressmen, governors, and presidential candidates (also a dork) who are Mormon. I don't know what else you've got to do to be considered main stream around here, but hey, whatever.

We've got good guys and bad guys. We watch the same TV shows, play the same games, and we don't live in compounds nor do we sacrifice goats. If part of the definition of a cult is kidnapping people, and brainwashing them with sleep deprivation and starvation, then we're really missing the boat, because I spent two years as a missionary, and the biggest barrier to entry was mostly trying to get people to quit smoking. Oooooohhhhh... How eeeevviiiilllllllllll.

And we've only got one wife. There are bizzaro offshoots that live in their desert compounds that call themselves reformed or this that and the other with multiple wives, but guess what? I don't consider David Koresh to represent mainstream Protestants either, so back off. Baptists came from the Anabaptists, but you don't hear anybody freaking out about that either.

So leave me and John Browning out of it.

strambo
June 3, 2010, 01:24 PM
How many of the same "never buy a Kahr" posters would, or have, bought Chinese or Russian (pre-Soviet fall) arms and ammunition? Talk about profits going to something "destructive!" :uhoh:

My understanding was Kahr is not church owned at all, just the founder is the son on Rev. Moon. If I got wrapped up in these issues, I'd feel a lot more morally superior about my K9 purchase than my Chinese SKS purchase so many years ago. I guess I'm complicit in helping the govt. responsible for so many (past and ongoing) human rights violations...my bad.:what:

rbernie
June 3, 2010, 01:28 PM
Gang - we talk guns, not religion. The next post that spends time talking about the pros and cons of any given belief structure will earn the poster a week's free vacation away from THR.

OK?

CoRoMo
June 3, 2010, 01:36 PM
I think the 'C' word is very misunderstood. It is by and large used to describe a group that has distorted, changed, and/or added to the Biblical text. Using the word apart from that relation to original Biblical text, rules, and teachings, the word just seems to mean a kook group, but that definition gets so loose it's meaningless. By that definition, everyone is in their own little cult because the word will be defined by the beholding eye. Nobody who is a member of a cult would ever believe so or use that word to describe their group.

Sorry if that's a religious jaunt. Just trying to address the word before it is thrown in the wrong direction. I'm not trying to nit-pick any given belief or belief structure.

winchester '97
June 3, 2010, 01:49 PM
So what if the guys a perverted nutjob? A lot of you still like Bill "68 gun ban" Ruger's guns lol. My point is i could care less who made it as long as its a good value.

DPris
June 3, 2010, 02:27 PM
KAHR owns Auto-Ordnance.
Both are owned by a church-owned holding company. Justin Moon, the chief KAHR designer, is Reverend Moon's son.

My references to cults, relative to both religions, were made in line with previous posters' commentary & perceptions, and both religions do share cult-like behaviours as defined in more than one book on the subject.
Those inside them don't see them as cults, those outside frequently perceive them that way. I won't argue it, that's pointless & beyond the scope of the subject at hand.
My commentary was an effort to respond to the original poster's question, not to bash religion, either specific or general.

The Mormon church was brought up as a comparison, along with Browning, to the Moonies & spending money that benefits their church. My only purpose in mentioning the Mormons was to illustrate the difference in that context, as well as to illustrate in passing the parallel similarity in the popular conception of both being cults, or at least cultish, which is a demonstrated factor in the decision-making process concerning KAHR products for some.
I had & have no intentions of participating in a religious war, but I've lived in Utah for over 50 years, I do know that particular church directly.

People have a variety of reasons for buying or avoiding guns or product lines, and if one happens to be that they dislike the parent company who owns the maker, religious or otherwise, it's as good a reason as any. Some choose not to buy Chinese-made guns, refusing to "support" a Communist regime & what they consider "slave" labor. I don't particularly subscribe to that view myself, but I can respect it in others.

Discussion of reasons for not buying a brand are normally valid here, I'd think, as long as they don't wander too far afield & become personal, slanderous, vicious, or deteriorate into nothing more than vitriolic diatribe.
I've addressed the OP, I'm done with it.

Buy or don't buy KAHR products, based on whichever reasons apply in your own mind.
Join whichever church you prefer on the same basis.
Be Moonie, be Mormon, be neither, be nothing. Makes no difference to me. :)

Denis

SMMAssociates
June 3, 2010, 02:32 PM
No real opinion on the Kahr guns - my favorite gun pusher had a very nice one that nobody could figure out how to get apart, though.... He sold it online before I could decide to take the "savings".... But, to be honest, it's probably a reasonable assumption that the money is going someplace most of us would prefer it didn't....

(Risking a whacking :eek: : I've got a degree in Philosophy and the Psychology of Religion.... Mormonism may have been cultic in the beginning, but has long since move into "mainstream". It began in a time where which side of the altar to place the wine bottle on was "fighting words", and in places where "tolerance" was limited. Grew anyway.... As the "Hitchhiker's Guide" says: "Mostly harmless".... :D Good people, too. I just wish the Marriott Hotel copies of the Book of Mormon had bigger type - I'm getting too old to read it....)

(My apologies to the mods, but IMHO, somebody had to say this....)

Regards,

CoRoMo
June 3, 2010, 02:37 PM
How many of the same "never buy a Kahr" posters would, or have, bought Chinese or Russian (pre-Soviet fall) arms and ammunition? Talk about profits going to something "destructive!"
I sort of agree, sort of. I won't be owning a Kahr, but I will say that I'm impressed with their products that I believe are unrivaled in design. I'm just not going to send a profit up that ladder or show them any demand for the product.

I never bought any ChiCom or Soviet guns or ammo, but of course, I shop at Walmart and everything there is made in China; can't help that I guess. That issue is more about the quality & cost of foreign goods vs. American made goods. I have no qualms about owning a Norinco 1911 because there isn't the slightest fraction of my purchase money that would reached the Asian shore. Years ago, 1911Tuner made a very good post in that regard and he explained it better than I can.

oneounceload
June 3, 2010, 03:17 PM
Kahr appears to be a decently-made, US-made gun that some folks are having issues with due to the owners; yet many don't seem to have a problem buying Chinese-made lower-quality guns sold at cheap price points.

Guess I have a problem trying to discern the difference, or if there should even be any

RockyMtnTactical
June 3, 2010, 03:26 PM
Seriously, who cares what religion any gun maker is? Like someone else posted, many of us buy guns from communist countries without batting an eye. I don't care for Kahr because my experiences with their weapons are not exactly the kind that build confidence in a gun maker, but I couldn't care less that the owner is a Moonie.

FourteenMiles
June 3, 2010, 03:28 PM
I based where I spent my money on peoples hocus pocus beliefs I would not be able to buy much at all. The "Moonies" claims seem no more outlandish to me than any other religions.

If it is a well designed and made product (which it is), I say go for it.

Correia
June 3, 2010, 03:53 PM
as defined in more than one book on the subject

Ooooooohhhhh. It's in a book. Well that settles it then! :D

rfurtkamp
June 3, 2010, 04:19 PM
I don't buy AO/Kahr products because of my experience with shoddy workmanship, failure to rectify problems, and months of runaround - not their choice in exercising their freedom of worship.

GunsAmerica Fan
June 3, 2010, 04:23 PM
Thankyou Correia for pointing out how absurd that is.

I have had lots of dealings with Kahr and they are a great company run very well, with expensive but excellent products and how women in their ads.

They do own the Thompson, Auto-Ordnance company and area also making an M-1 Carbine that is as flawless as the tommyguns.

I think this is absurd. This is America. Religious freedom is why people are here, and you wouldn't have the religious freedom you do have if this wasn't something part of the Constitution.

You buy stuff from China, which is probably the next country we will fight a world war against. You buy from Japan who bombed us. You buy from Russia that even though they are completely inept drunkards and thugs are plotting your destruction and overthrow as we sit here.

But you won't buy great guns from a good company that happens to have religious views considerably off the beaten path? The only reason you are upset is because you didn't think it up first!

CoRoMo
June 3, 2010, 04:40 PM
Some people carry a spiritual foundation that can't be violated. When I say "can't", I don't mean that it is physically impossible, I mean that it is emotionally and internally hindered. It is kind of hard to describe this to someone who doesn't also hold similar moral guidelines, but we all have other ethical standards in common that none of us would breach, and this is a little bit like that.

We might be getting a little too close to the edge of what is considered allowable at THR, but FWIW I think the OP's question has been answered.

GAF:
I don't think anyone here is challenging the religious freedoms of this group. THAT would be absurd, but those who follow their conscience have to be given their own freedom to do so, just as those who don't have such compunctions are free to do as they do.

rbernie
June 3, 2010, 06:02 PM
I've deleted the remaining off-topic posts in this thread, and with that chore completed - we've said all we can on this topic.

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