[firestar]

I have just entered a pistol league and I want a target gun that shoot the 9mm. I want adjustable sights and a nice SA trigger but it can have a DA trigger also.

What is a good one for less than $600 used or maybe new? I have heard good things about the SIG 210 but that is out of my price range.

[Handy]

There are some target model Benelli B76S s on sale at gunsamerica for $595. Fixed barrel, weighted, the works. Fixed barrels are such an immediate improvement over everything else I would think this would do it for you.

Talk them down in price.

[kalibear45]

Those Springfield "Loaded" 9mm 1911s (oxymoron?) look mighty nice...

[CWL]

Look into the CZ line of pistols.

[Zak Smith]

Specific suggestions, in no particular order:

CZ-75B-SA: light single-action trigger, fixed sights
CZ-85 COMBAT: adjustable trigger, adjustable sights

Those two can be had "new" for $450 for te 85 COMBAT, and around $400 for the 75B-SA.

-z

[Shmackey]

Depends on how "target" you want your target gun. Paper punching, combat-style competition, or bullseye? For the first two, almost any good handgun with adjustable sights will work. That CZ SA sure seems like a good deal.

[Zak Smith]

Shmackey,

I'm curious how one would "spec" a 9mm "Bullseye" pistol differently than a paper-punching or IDPA-style pistol?

If anyone here is interested in trying out a CZ-75B-SA in the Northern Colorado area, let me know and we can arrange it. Mine only has a trigger job and new sights.

-z

[Shmackey]

Zak,

You'd basically have to get someone to make you a 9mm 1911 that can hold the kinds of groups you need or you could go with a good Sig 210 (or...see below). I don't know anything about those Benellis but they're interesting.

Obviously, this would be for the "centerfire" leg; most folks who don't just use their .45s will use a .3x of some sort, but there is nothing about a 9mm that precludes a 3" gun. For instance, Clark will make you this 9mm gun that holds 2.5" groups at 50 yards. (http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/bullcon.htm#hard)

Now, from what I hear, there are some guys who can make the army M9 shoot unreal groups, and people are using them in Bullseye. I haven't seen one, and I have to assume that they also do some serious work on the triggers. If someone knows about this whole Beretta-Bullseye connection, please clue me in. I think I read something about it online in Gun Tests a while ago.

[Zak Smith]

Les Baer will guarantee 1.5"@50 yards for an extra couple hundred bucks.

(And although I plan to buy a "nice" 9mm 1911 in the next couple years, I'd be better off to buy an extra $200 of ammo and shoot it...)

-z

[Shmackey]

Yep, Baer will do it. I guess I should refrain from saying "Bullseye pistol" and start saying "sub-3-inch-at-50-yards pistol." 'Cause that's the whole idea. If your gun can't do that, you can't compete (in the "competitive" sense of the word, not the "show up" sense of the word) in Bullseye.

You can compete in IDPA just fine without a sub-3" gun, which is why I drew the distinction.

It kind of bugs me when people say "my target gun shoots better than I can" and settle like that. If your target gun can't hold down groups the size of your smallest target (be it an x-ring or otherwise), then you'll never know why you missed--you could have a perfect hold and shoot a 7.

The guy at bullseyepistol.com (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Dreyer_infonet/cstomgun.htm) is much better at explaining the need for an accurate gun than I am.

[firestar]

Would the CZs really be competitive? I like the sound of a single action CZ-75 with adjustable sights.

I shot for the 1st time tonight (1st time ever in any type of official competition) and I saw the cash that some people had in there pistols.:what:

The league is a ceterfire pistol at 50ft. We can use iron sights only (there is a red dot leauge but I am not in it) and that is about it.

I took serveral guns to see how I did with each one. It is a real eye opener when you do this in competition vs. just blasting at tin cans outside.

I shot a CZ-40, Ruger P95 and a Ruger Speed Six .357 with 4" bbl. I did the best with the .357 but the CZ-40 was not far behind, it is my friends gun and with practice I think I could better with it. That is why the CZ line appeal to me right now. If I could get a CZ-75 to shoot as well as a .357, I would be happy.

Next week I will shoot my Beretta 92fs and S&W 36-1 with 3"bbl. I will let you know which one comes out on top. I think I will bring the Speed Six to shoot if the other two don't fare too well.

I REALLY wish I had my S&W 586 back.:banghead: I traded it for the Beretta (which I love) but I want both now.:mad:

[Zak Smith]

Well, I'm sorry to say that I haven't done the careful research to determine just how accurate my various CZ's are. I normally shoot at 7-10 yards, and the -SA can shoot through the same hole if I do it all properly.

CZ's come with a test target from the factory, with 6 shots fired.

My 75B-SA reported a dispersion area (max center-to-center) of 3.7" at 25 meters (27.3 yards), which would be 6.8" @ 50 yards.

My 85 COMBAT reported a dispersion of 2.3" @ 25m (27.3y), which would be 4.3" @ 50 yards.

This was done with S&B ammo, nothing special.

In this TFL thread, I discussed the relative advantages of the various CZ's: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=137943
(look for the post by "smithz")

The 75B-SA trigger will be lighter and probably better than the regular 75B trigger. The 85 COMBAT trigger has no firing pin block to deal with, so it can have better reset and smoother take-up. The adjustable sights on the 85 COMBAT are very nice.

To get the best of both, I'm having the CZ "Champion" single-action-only trigger/sear and low-mass speed hammer put in my 85 COMBAT.

To have adjustable sights put on the 75B-SA, you will either need to have the slide milled, or have the LPA set that goes past the rear of the slide installed.

-z

[stevec]

My guess is that short of a revolver, a CZ-75SA will be best best price/performance option. The thing to beware of is that the CZ-75SA's polymer trigger seems to be a source of problems. Between that and the CZ-97b barrel bushing issues, I'm starting to think CZ needs to do more long term durability testing on their guns.

You could see about finding a BHP GP Comp, they can sometimes be found for under $600 if you shop around. They would be an excellent bullseye gun - long sight radius, adjustable trigger, tight, consistent barrel lockup.

The last option might be to pick up a 9mm 1911 or BHP/clone for cheap, and get a trigger job and new barrel fitted. I'm guessing $350 for that work, so you'd have to get the 1911 or BHP for around $250. I think you can get a NIB Arcus BHP clone for $220. FEG's have gone up in price, but you may still be able to find one for $250 or so.

[JoeHatley]

Might want to check out the S&W 952...

Joe

[mr. e]

I have to chime in on a CZ-85 Combat as a low cost target pistol. I'm a hand loader, and mine is consistently accurate with just about any ammo that I use.

I also like the consistency of the trigger. There is a little creep, but once that is taken up the trigger breaks cleanly with any increased pressure. This is out of the box. I'm sure it could be improved with a little work.

By the way, Shmackey and Zak, did you get your CZ trigger work done in Colroado? I'm in Colorado Springs, and I'd like the name of your 'smith.

[BHP9]

If you want an entry level gun you could use just about anything but if you want to become serious about winning in competition you will have to pay big bucks to be competitive.

In other words if you want to play the game seriously you will have to plan on spending a lot of money there is just no way around it.

Bullseye guns built up on 1911 style frames generally shoot 2 inchs at 50 yards and anything less and you are not competitive. Even in the pistol games that do not demand such accurate weapons the man with the super accurate gun is still at an advantage compared to the people competing with lesser guns.

Many things will factor into your winning. Good trigger pulls are a must and they do not come on factory out of the box guns. Most of the the time super accuracy doesn't either. Match barrels that are hand fitted for superior lock up, slide to frame fit, precision repeatable adjustable sights, custom grips to fit your hand, checkered front and back straps and a mirad of other modifications often become necessary so the gun fits you and you do not have to adapt yourself to the weapon.

It is tempting to say just order a factory race gun but when you get serious about competition no factory weapon is probably going to fullfill your needs. The more you compete the more you will decide which modifications will work best for you.

You must not only be willing to spend the money but what is more important you must have the time to practice constantly. Most people at first will see a dramatic rise in their skill followed by a leveling off in which they do not seem to get any better. This is the point where most people quit competition because it is at this point where you must practice a lot to get just a little bit better and most people do not have the time or money in which to do so. It takes a lot of work and dedication to the sport to excell and most people are unwilling to make this big sacrifice both in terms of money and time in order to be one of the best.

[Russ]

CZ 85 Combat. Adjustible sights. Should be had for around $500.

[10-Ring]

A buddy just picked up a SA loaded 1911 in 9mm w/ adjustable sights...NICE! and, it's a good base if you want to make any mods in the future.

[Bob Locke]

What are Browning High Powers going for these days?

Those SA triggers can be slicked up pretty nicely, and I know you can get them with adjustable sights.

Probably be worth the search, IMO.

[Zak Smith]

mr.e,

I had my trigger job done by Mike, the CZ-USA gunsmith. He also swapped out the plastic (SA) trigger for the steel "Champion" trigger for free.

-z

[Zak Smith]

New BHP = around $550.
Used BHP = around $450.

-z

[Baron Holbach]

I highly recommend the Glock 34.

[Handy]

Here's what I was talking about:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976300881.htm

Target version of the combat 9mm. Innovative mechanically delayed blowback system (same idea as the HK P9S) gives you a fixed barrel and low recoil.

I have a hard time imagining any Hi-Power, CZ or 1911 touching this thing for accuracy. The barrel doesn't recoil and the sight radius is long.

[Zak Smith]

Handy,

Wow! Thanks for the link. What kind of measured accuracy can one expect out of one of these?

-z

[Handy]

I have no personal experience with the Benelli, I've just been thinking about them awhile. But I do have two other fixed barrel delayed blowback guns, an HK P9S and a P7M8. Both have 4" barrels but will hold an inch at 25 yards off the bench. With the P9S I've shot 8" groups at 100 yards with combat sights.The Benelli has a longer barrel, a weight, and most importantly, a much longer sight radius.

I don't think most pistoleros realize what a boon fixed barrels are. Even the disgusting Hi-Point delivers terrific accuracy because its accuracy isn't dependant on where the barrel ends up. The Steyr GB and even VP70 where also known for their intrinsic accuracy. I don't think it's going out on a limb to say that the Benelli pistol will perform the same or much better.

The B76 is an esoteric one-off that is no longer being made and may not feed every kind of bullet (Benelli is still around for support, though). But for a bullseye gun on a budget, I can't imagine a better setup for $600. It is the equivalent of an HK P9S Target for $1400 less. I would definitely go this way for an auto.

Otherwise, get a revolver and shoot .38 Wadcutter.

[Zak Smith]

Another option for fixed-barrel pistol:

The NCG Gas Gun (http://www.ncggasgun.com/)

It's a fixed barrel system for a 1911.

I have no experience, but someone over on 1911forum was playing with one.

-z

[Gewehr98]

But the picture emphasizes it: S&W Model 952. Successor to the venerable Model 52.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/products/firearms/images/standard/170220.jpg

[J Scott]

Right now for me it's a CZ 85 Combat.

If Uncle Sam doesn't sting me too bad, it will be a S&W 952.

J Scott

[Stealthfixr]

And J&G sales was selling them recently for $319! I got mine recently, have put over 1000 rounds through it already (I really like it), and it has been a complete joy to shoot. Use the saved money to buy more ammo.

[firestar]

Thanks guys! You have really given me some stuff to think about.

I think the CZ-85 and the S&W 952 the front runners. Does anyone have more info on the S&W 952? I had a S&W 59 but hated the trigger and the grip was too big. How does it compare to the 59?

[Zak Smith]

Be advised that there are two CZ 85 models: the 85B and the 85 COMBAT.

The 85B has fixed sights and the firing pin block (and so the potential of the trigger will be limited compared to ....)

The 85 COMBAT has adjustable sights and no firing pin block, so its trigger will be better.

I think the 85 COMBAT is clearly the better choice between those two.

-z

[Skunkabilly]

I have just entered a pistol league and I want a target gun that shoot the 9mm. I want adjustable sights and a nice SA trigger but it can have a DA trigger also.

What is a good one for less than $600 used or maybe new? I have heard good things about the SIG 210 but that is out of my price range.

You can get a $500 Beretta 92FS and cock & lock it by replacing a part :D

Or send it off to Ernest Langdon, but if you're leaning on an SA gun not sure if you can dig the whole Beretta philosophy.

I agree with the 1911 philosophy but shoot my Beretta better, I'm probably going to ditch my 1911 after using up my 2000+ rounds of .45 laying around.

Here she is, my prize gun:
http://www.skunkabilly.com/images/beretta_rr.jpg

I like her better than my P7M8, even.

[Shmackey]

mr. e,

I didn't get a trigger job for my CZ (which I sold recently), but if I were going to take a CZ somewhere in Colorado, it'd be Gunworks. They sell a lot of CZs and they know what they're doing. They also figured out a 1911 problem that Gunsmoke couldn't fix. (Although I wouldn't bring them a 1911 for an all-out custom build.)

[Kahr carrier]

What about a Glock 34.:)

[denfoote]

Three words: Browning High Power!!!!;)

[Handy]

A CZ-85 (or Glock, Hi-Power or any other recoil operated combat gun) isn't going to shoot any better for targets than the guns you already have. The 952 should. The 952 starts at over $1000.

[MoNsTeR]

I haven't had them do any work for me, but I'm also a big fan of the guys at Gunworks.

Gunsmoke in Wheat Ridge, however, is just as likely to ruin your CZ as improve it. I took my Baby Eagle there, and after 12 weeks(!) they returned it to me damaged, and were unwilling to make amends. From talking to the gunsmith who $%#!ed my gun, I could tell I knew more about CZ actions than he did, which should not inspire confidence.

[cratz2]

The CZ75B SA would be a good bet. About $400 or so new. Very decent trigger out of the box and a little work by George Smith and it will be golden! Most find the CZ to be a very comfortable design and it is pretty weighty for a 9mm so there is very little recoil.

A Beretta, or even a Taurus with a replacement barrel, and some trigger work by Ernie Langdon would be a very good choice. He can get the triggers down to a reliable 3.5 lbs but may limit your ammo choices.

[bad_dad_brad]

Sig P210, but who can afford one. Man, I would love to have her.

[Gewehr98]

Is less of a Model 59 descendant as it is a Model 52 (target .38 Special wadcutter) descendant. Take a look again at the two, upper is 952, lower is 52.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/products/firearms/images/standard/170220.jpg

http://mauser98.com/m52rightsmall.jpg

[cratz2]

The 952 was the first gun that came to mind but the last one I saw was $1,000 NIB. May get one for $900 if you really look or maybe for $800 used but I think $600 would require either a lot of luck or a lot of waiting.

That CZ75B SA will keep you very nice company during your wait for the ideal 952.

[Steve F]

Another vote for the CZ75SA:o I made my own trigger out of stainless steel instead of the polymer one and couldn't be happier;) Excellent firearm for a very reasonable amount of money,great balance and natural point of aim just like my BHP's and they are also, a very excellent choice,just a few more bucks:p

[Handy]

What makes you guys think that a CZ will be any improvement in accuracy over the Beretta 92, Ruger P95, Ruger revolver, etc. the guy already has? All of those are decently accurate combat guns. I can't imagine any stock CZ will approach the mechanical accuracy of a 4" revolver.

That being said, are you guys recommending guns because the $300 to $500 investment will give Firestar a better bullseye weapon, or just because you like whatever pistol? Unless _____ pistol is a real improvement for target shooting, you're recommendation is really a waste of Firestar's money.

CZs, BHPs, Sig 220s, Berettas, etc. are not target guns. He wants a target gun.

[Zak Smith]

Handy,

To be honest, I think most of us responded to his initial inquiry, in which he didn't reveal the other pistols he had, or exactly what kind of pistol league he was in. And since this is the Autoloader forum, we naturally suggested the more accurate 9mm semi-autos we knew of in his price range.

regards
Zak

[Sean Smith]

I hate to agree with Handy, but he's right. Almost all the guns suggested are practically useless for bullseye-style target shooting, at least when stock. They don't have the inherent accuracy or good enough triggers to do the job.

In fact, keeping in a $600 budget for that kind of thing is kind of a shaky proposition, unless you are willing to really stretch the definition of sutibility.

A 4" .38 SPL S&W revolver could do it, though it might need some light custom work to get up to speed. They are usually super-accurate, though, and their sights and SA triggers should be fine.

In 9mm, I dunno really, aside from what Handy has already mentioned. An STI Trojan 9x19mm would do the trick, but that's almost $1,000. A great deal on a SIG P210 would be at least $1,500. Combat-style guns $600 or less would lack inherent accuracy and have overly heavy triggers for precision work... you'd have to spring for at least a trigger job and a fitted Bar-Sto barrel, which would add about $350 to your expenses anyway. Maybe you could find a beater CZ with adjustable sights and have it worked over to a reasonable facimile of a high-precision centerfire handgun for around $750 total...?

[Handy]

I'm sorry you hate to agree with me.:)

[Sean Smith]

Oops, forgot to add the :D to that topic.

[Handy]

Firestar,

Not what you asked for, but the Desert Eagle pistols can occasionally be found in the $600 to $700 price range (.41 Mag versions are quite cheap right now). There was even a conversion spring pack to allow .38 Special to function in the .357 version. While seemingly inappropriate for bullseye, these are among the most accurate handguns ever built. The barrel, frame and front sight (or dot sight) are a single fixed unit. An inch at 50 yards is not unheard of with these guns. Their weight should help both a steady hold and eat some of that recoil. No 9mm, though; but the right price and definitely accurate.

[MoNsTeR]

Handy,
Could you provide a link to information on this .38 spring kit you speak of? The only thing putting me off a .357 Desert Eagle is the excessive noise when shooting indoors...

[Gewehr98]

It's a purpose-built target gun, based on the earlier Bullseye Model 52. Not a converted defensive gun, it's a real, honest-to-Gawd target/bullseye pistol.

I'd like to find that .38 Special spring kit for my Mark I .357 Desert Eagle. They'd have to be really light springs, since the .357 Magnum barely has enough gas pressure to cycle the big gun's action. I knew Coonan had .38 Special spring kits for their .357 autoloader, but it's recoil-operated on the Browning principal...

[Handy]

I've only heard of the .38 adapter, but I'm sure Magnum Research in MN could give you the straight dope.

The old S&W model 52 was interesting, but only used .38 Wadcutter, a specialty round with the lead bullet seated all the way into the case- tricky feeding. The 952 should chamber and feed like any old 9mm.