FNH Five SeveN vs. Kel-Tec PMR 30


PDA






KDS
June 5, 2010, 11:12 AM
And now for something completely different. I have semis in 9mm, .40, .45 and 22lr. I have plenty of defense guns, but I am interested in a pistol with a large capacity mag and almost no recoil. I know there is a huge price difference between the two, but...if you were looking for a pistol that holds 20+ rounds with light recoil, what would you choose and why? I plan to use this pistol mostly for range use.

One more consideration, my wife goes to the range with me from time to time, but does not really like the recoil of most pistols. I have a pair of Sig Mosquitos that we shoot together and she handles them pretty well. I think I could convince her to use a FN or Kel-Tec PMR for HD/SD much easier than anything else. I know these calibers are no .45, but it would be better than 22lr.

If you enjoyed reading about "FNH Five SeveN vs. Kel-Tec PMR 30" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
M2 Carbine
June 5, 2010, 11:46 AM
I have the FN 5.7.

For your intended use, IMO the FN is way too expensive to buy and shoot.

I assume the Kel Tec will be a decent gun, so I'd buy it instead of the FN.

I plan to use this pistol mostly for range use.

My idea of 22 cal range use is going through at least a brick of ammo.
I don't know what 22 Mag ammo costs but I'm sure it costs a lot more than 22LR.
I'd pass on the high cost ammo for plinking and get one of the decent 22LR pistols.

Kingofthehill
June 5, 2010, 11:54 AM
Because the only ammo we can buy as civilians for the FN 5.7 is watered down crap, why pay the premium?...

IF the PMR isn't a jam-o-matic, id rather have the PMR. The price difference of the gun AND the ammo is just huge and in the end, it puts a hole in paper just like the 5.7

KDS
June 5, 2010, 12:23 PM
what about the secondary use for HD?

Kingofthehill
June 5, 2010, 12:33 PM
what about the secondary use for HD?

Then i would have to go with the FN 5.7.

For the simple reason that due to a tragic even in Fort Hood, Tx. We know it works :(

The .22 wmr is supposed to be CLOSE to the ballistics of the 5.7 out of a pistol but for me, the thought of trusting a rimfire for my life doesn't sound like fun. Centerfire is far more reliable

BushyGuy
June 5, 2010, 12:56 PM
FN 57 is a very good gun, i would buy an FN 57 over any kel-tec any day!

FN57 =:cool:

Kel Tec=:barf:

Claude Clay
June 5, 2010, 01:25 PM
suggestion being--if you are going to spend on ammo that much, try

32 H&R Magnum. S&W 332, ruger single six (kinda pricey though)
a new 327 Federal can shoot the lighter 32 H&R or 32 Long or 32acp also.
the power is close to a 38 spl but the perceived recoil is much less.
in class 3 out of 4 ladies chose the 332 over the 642. and if they are more
comfortable with it they will shoot it more. and more practice yields better shot placement. and it is (mostly) agreed that placement trumps caliber.

helps big time if you reload--$12 per 100 in my basement vrs $30 in the store

MachIVshooter
June 5, 2010, 01:28 PM
While I can't comment from personal experience on the KT, it, like the FN, uses an unconventional delayed blowback system (The KT is actually a more advanced self-adjusting blowback/short recoil hybrid). This, and cartridges with alot more oomph than a .22 LR, lends to a very different recoil impulse. Combine that with the fact that both guns are very light weight (the KT is 14 ounces empty) and produce considerable muzzle blast, your wife my still not like them.

IMO, you should consider an all-steel FS 9mm locked breech pistol instead.

bigfatdave
June 5, 2010, 01:37 PM
due to a tragic even in Fort Hood, Tx. We know it works Not really, it was about the same ratio of shot people surviving as any other common handgun caliber.

As to the OP:
1- is the Kel Tec available yet?
2- why not .2lr for range use? Even a .22short will kill paper just as dead ad .50BMG
3- let your wife pick out her own damn guns (that's from MrsBFD)
4- .22mag is a LOT cheaper than 5.7mm, and available pretty much anywhere ammo is sold

gearhead
June 5, 2010, 03:41 PM
My Five-seveN is my favorite range gun and it's my choice for long-range personal defense when I'm in that particular situation due to my job requirements. The handgun itself is expensive but the ammo isn't very expensive at all (when compared to other centerfire defense ammo) and it's been readily available in my experience.

If you want a plinker there are more efficient choices but for a serious defense weapon that carries a lot of ammo but is lightweight and has negligible recoil there really aren't many other choices. It's not an everyday carry but I don't feel under-gunned when I do carry it.

wyocarp
October 24, 2010, 04:50 AM
I've been shooting the heck out of mine.

The magazines get progressively harder to load after about 20 rounds. 20 rounds load fairly easily. Also, don't play with the magazines after they are loaded. Leave them loaded. The cases become indented from pushing against them to load the next round and too much of this might affect how they work.

I was disappointed when I first got the gun out of the box, but it is really growing on me. 31 rounds. Let me repeat that, 31 rounds in the gun is something that has to be tried to know how much fun we are missing with other handguns.

It has been reliable except that the magazine has to be loaded with care otherwise the front of the bullet will be too low in the magazine and the round will not load. I have found that the perfect remedy for this is to use the polymer tipped bullets from Hornady or Remington. Remington has a larger bullet weight and the Hornady is faster.

It is light. Very light. It feels lighter than a loaded LCP.

Did I mention that this is a fun handgun.

I can hardly wait to be able to buy more magazines and I was thinking tonight as I shot a rabbit with it that I need to mount a small laser on the rail.

People keep talking about wishing it was in 22LR. I doubt that will be possible.

There is also a lot of talk of concealing this handgun. It's going to be more of a challange, but I suppose it could be done. It is fairly flat and weighs nothing. Mine has been utterly reliable and I'm currently at about 1000 rounds.

As for the magazine release being on the bottom of the grip, I didn't like it at first but it is easy to get used to and is fast. The only problem I see with it is that if used as a carry gun as some have suggested, it is very easy for someone else to disengage the magazine.

There has been some mention that this is a poor man's FN 5.7. I'm not all that excited about the FN. I've shot them and just ho-hum. The three things that make the PMR more fun than the 5.7 is; 10 more rounds in the grip, a third of the cost, and it is so very very light.

nwilliams
October 24, 2010, 05:28 AM
I have a FiveSeven and I love it, however I would love to have a PMR as well, they are similar yes but they are also vastly different so I would want to own both.

One thing to keep in mind is that the FiveSeven has been around a while and is a very reliable gun and has proved itself for both civilian and military/LE use. The PMR is very new to the market and has yet to prove itself as a reliable design. I'm sure Kel-Tec will do it's best to make this gun reliable but I'm going to wait until this gun as been out for at least a year and has enough positive feedback before I consider buying one.

I'm a huge fan of anything FN and having a FiveSeven as part of my FN collection just seemed necessary. That said I use my FiveSeven as a range toy and nothing more, I don't consider the 5.7x28 a very practical defensive round, although I certainly wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of this round, even the "watered down" civilian version.

The FiveSeven is extremely accurate, low recoil and gets the anti's all stirred up which I like. I also have a PS90 so owning a FiveSeven just seemed fitting.

As for the round itself, yes it is not the most potent defensive cartridge but it is very accurate and in the event of the zombie Apocalypse I'm sure I'll be glad to have this round at my disposal:D

The cost of the 5.7x28 is really not as bad as some people might want you to believe. You can find 5.7 for as low as $19.50 a box (50 rounds) which comes to .39 a round. Considering this is Hornady V-Max ammo .39 is not that bad a price considering what it is. If the 5.7x28 was sold in 20 round boxes like .223 then you would be paying $7.80 per box, a box of 20 rounds of .223 V-Max will run you $15-$20 so paying about $8 for 20 rounds of the equivalent ammo in 5.7x28 really isn't that bad.

The FiveSeven does not come cheap but I guarantee you that you will love it if you buy one!

Here's my FiveSeven along with my PS90.....
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/nwilliams27/FN%20FiveSeven/FiveSeven-1.jpg

Pete D.
October 24, 2010, 07:24 AM
The .22 wmr is supposed to be CLOSE to the ballistics of the 5.7 out of a pistol
I believe that the velocity difference is nearly 400 fps. for 40 grain bullets out of the same length barrel. That is about a 33% edge for the 5.7.
Personally, the .22 mag and the 5.7 are both too expensive for plinking at the range. I'd use the .22LR.
I can shoot the 5.7 cheaply because I reload the cartridge (55 grain bullets at 1500 fps); the .22 Mag...factory only.
Pete

Zerodefect
October 24, 2010, 08:03 AM
of those two choices....FN.

m2steven
October 26, 2010, 03:50 AM
The 22wmr fired from a pistol is not close to the ballistics of the 5.7x28 from the FN 5.7 pistol. My FN 5.7 is the only pistol I own which I consider as foolproof as any of my Glocks. It's just dead reliable.

Also, it's a fabulous shooting pistol as well. Super accurate at long distance, almost no recoil, and 21 rounds as fast as you can pull the trigger.

Having said that, I really like the 22mag enough to consider it a valid personal defense round if fired from at least a 4 inch barrel. So too the 17hmr. What a great round that is. Both fairly cheap too.

If they get the pmr-30 a bit more reliable, you'll have something.

harmon rabb
October 26, 2010, 07:30 AM
The .22mag out of a RIFLE seems to approach the ballistics of the 5.7 out of a PISTOL. Don't confuse .22mag's performance from a long barrel with that of it out of a short barrel, which is far less impressive.

If that right there isn't reason enough to make you prefer the FN 5.7 for your wife, how about the whole rimfire vs. centerfire issue? I've never had a failure to fire with a centerfire round, and I've fired some very old milsurp centerfire rounds. Rimfire? It's common to find 1-2 per brick of .22lr that just won't fire.

bigfatdave
October 26, 2010, 07:48 AM
.22lr is NOT manufactured the same as .22wmr

And I've had my share of duds from the factory with centerfire also ... there's no way to inspect a round before putting it in service to ensure future ignition.

And while the .22wmr may not be the ballistic equivalent to the 5.7mm load ... go down to your local gun shop and find some cheap plinking 5.7, compare it to the cheap plinking .22mag and tell us which one you'd like to shoot for an afternoon on a regular basis.

harmon rabb
October 26, 2010, 08:10 AM
And while the .22wmr may not be the ballistic equivalent to the 5.7mm load ... go down to your local gun shop and find some cheap plinking 5.7, compare it to the cheap plinking .22mag and tell us which one you'd like to shoot for an afternoon on a regular basis.

If I want to shoot a relatively recoil free gun, I'll bring out my 22/45, pay $15 for a box of 550 rounds, and have at it ;)

Personally, when it comes to my family, I don't really care about cost. If the only thing my wife could / would shoot was a FN 5.7 or a PMR, I'd spend the considerable extra coin for the FN and not think twice about it.

I think the PMR is cool, and once they come down in price some, I may buy one for the heck of it, but I would just not want to use a .22mag for self defense. (yes, yes, i know that even .22lr has sent a ton of people to their graves)

Prion
October 26, 2010, 11:17 AM
Not really, it was about the same ratio of shot people surviving as any other common handgun caliber

That was his point, it works. Maybe not any better but not any worse.

I recently fired one and was impressed with the accuracy and light recoil. Ideal for the recoil sensitive.

Not cheap, though.

ratt_finkel
October 26, 2010, 12:01 PM
Have you thought about a Beretta 92FS? They are as smooth as they come. 20rd and 32rd mags are available. And 9mm is not only cheap for plinking but also great for self defense. It's the only one my gf likes to shoot.

KDS
October 26, 2010, 03:09 PM
We have a lot of experience with the Beretta and I am not a big fan. It seems nose heavy to me and the grip is too large. When I bught my 9 mm I got the M&P instead. I'm looking for something completely different which is why I posted this thread. I think I am going to get the Kel Tec after it has been out a while. The price alone makes it pretty easy to pick up. I'm not sure whether or not I want to spend the coin on the FN.

Shawn Dodson
October 26, 2010, 09:31 PM
That was his point, it works. Maybe not any better but not any worse.

Of 43 victims shot, 12 (28%) were killed.

Many victims were shot multiple times - including those who were wounded. Many were unaware they'd been hit.

There are many instances in which US law enforcement used 5.7x28mm, fired from the FN P90, landing multiple hits, in which the cartridge failed to stop the bad guy. Jacksonville Sheriff's Office has been involved in several shootings in which 5.7x28mm failed to produce acceptable results. Based on its experience JSO discontinued using 5.7x28mm.

DmL5
November 7, 2010, 07:15 PM
Of 43 victims shot, 12 (28%) were killed.13 were killed. 12 were soldiers. You aren't including the civilian that (among others) was killed trying to charge the shooter with a chair.


Many victims were shot multiple times - including those who were wounded.The same can be said of any similar incident. The massive number of deaths in the Virginia Tech massacre is due to the fact that, per news reports, 31 of the 33 victims were executed with shots to the head at very close range.

The Fort Hood shooter simply sprayed bullets randomly into a crowd. Almost all of the victims were hit in extremities or took grazing shots, again per news reports, and the victims inside the building received medical attention before Hasan's shootout with police officers was even finished outside.

Either of these factors (shot placement/medical response) has an infinitely larger effect on an incident of this sort than does the miniscule size difference between one tiny pistol bullet (5.7mm) and another tiny pistol bullet (9mm, etc). It is juvenile to expect an outcome any different with any pistol caliber. The shooter himself was hit 5 times with 9mm and survived.


Many were unaware they'd been hit.This is utterly irrelevant. Even the victims themselves attributed this to adrenaline, and similar stories can be found from survivors of the Virginia Tech massacre, where the shooter used 9mm hollow-points. Here is one story of a soldier not even knowing his arm had been damaged beyond use by RPG shrapnel:

http://www.stripes.com/news/i-had-so-much-adrenaline-pumping-i-didn-t-feel-anything-1.34584

After a third rocket-propelled grenade landed nearby, Nathan said, he grabbed his machine gun and scrambled back on top of the Humvee. When he tried to lift the gun, he realized that shrapnel had seriously damaged his left arm. “It was to the point where I couldn’t use it,” he said. “But I had so much adrenaline pumping I didn’t feel anything.”


There are many instances in which US law enforcement used 5.7x28mm, fired from the FN P90, landing multiple hits, in which the cartridge failed to stop the bad guy. Jacksonville Sheriff's Office has been involved in several shootings in which 5.7x28mm failed to produce acceptable results. Based on its experience JSO discontinued using 5.7x28mm. Cite a source outside of ambiguous forum posts. For example, a news report detailing where the subjects were shot, and how the bullets "failed" to stop them.

I'll help you out: there is only one local Jacksonville news article on any of these supposed shootings, and it does not indicate a "failure" of any sort. According to the article, a man pointed a revolver at Jacksonville SWAT and they responded with a 15-round burst from a P90. At 900 RPM, this is a one-second trigger squeeze. The article says the man died and it doesn't indicate he even fired back at the police officers.

Girodin
November 7, 2010, 07:40 PM
And I've had my share of duds from the factory with centerfire also

A light primer strike or a true dud?

I like the five seven pistol as a small game hunting gun. I've used it as such and it is well suited to that type of use and a lot of fun. As a defensive gun I like others more for considerations including and apart from the effectiveness of the round it fires.

For your intended use, IMO the FN is way too expensive to buy and shoot.

Maybe for you. I know a few people who shoot their five sevens regularly and go through a high round count when they do. It would be better to say that the ammo is more expensive than it is for .22 WMR.

For a toy then the Kel tec will be cheaper to buy and cheaper to shoot. It is however, an unknown and unproven gun. An unreliable gun isn't much fun, even just as a range toy. For a defensive weapon reliability is at a premium.

I own KTs and FNs and I can tell you there is an enormous difference in the build quality of each. For any type of defensive use I would much rather have the FN, its proven. Also, I believe that the 5.7 would be a better round than the .22WMR from a pistol for SD.

For a plinker the KT has notable cost advantages.

Girodin
November 7, 2010, 07:43 PM
Oh and as to the issue of recoil, it is very very low from the Five Seven. Muzzle blast doesn't seem to be particularly potent either. I've never shot the KT (or seen for that matter, is it even out yet?) so I'll refrain from offering what would only be conjecture as to it.

CaliCoastie
November 7, 2010, 08:13 PM
if you are looking for something for the wife, have her find a 22lr that fits her. unless she has huge hands she wont find the pmr confortable to shoot, my wife doesnt care for mine. my wife likes her buckmark, and glock 36, she has diecent size hands but doesnt like my xd40 or like i said my pmr30. btw 7.50 for 20rds of 5.7 is about what you can get a box of 50 22wmr for.

O and yes the pmr 30 is out, just not alot yet.

Carter
November 7, 2010, 08:18 PM
If you handload I'm sure the issue of crappy rounds for the 5.7 would be solved.

I personally don't care for the kel-tec.

And the fact that the 5.7 performed on par with other handguns does show that it is effective. I don't think it was meant to be the conan of pistol rounds.

Girodin
November 8, 2010, 12:36 AM
O and yes the pmr 30 is out, just not alot yet.

oh, it has been released like the RFB then?

bigfatdave
November 8, 2010, 12:40 AM
A light primer strike or a true dud?
The last one I remember ... What would you call a round that wouldn't go off after three solid primer strikes, the last one in a different gun?
Both were reliable guns, and yet solid dents in the primer yielded no bang-bang at all.

I've had others, both pistol and rifle, none were ancient ammo or abused/neglected ammunition.

Failures happen, learn how to deal with it if you're ever shooting for serious reasons. TRB works, regardless of priming methods.

Girodin
November 8, 2010, 12:47 AM
I saw that Impact guns has them listed for $299.99 (none in stock). Impact always has higher (often significantly higher) prices than I am able to find things for else where. If the PMR is reliable and has half decent durability then it might be something to pick up since its so cheap. I'm scared it might have as horrible a trigger as every other kel tec I have shot though. It will need to be functional since there is no way I'd keep it based on its looks, personally I find it rather fugly. However, if it works I can get over that, particularly considering the price.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/kel_tec/kel_22wmr.jpg

CaliCoastie
November 8, 2010, 08:24 AM
llike i said they are out just not alot. the one i have has been very reliable once i figured out how to load the mag. yes its fugly, and no she doesnt look better in person. o and mine has a great trigger.

bigfatdave
November 8, 2010, 11:56 AM
I'm scared it might have as horrible a trigger as every other kel tec I have shot though.Why would it be?
The MPR30 isn't a double-action gun with a heavy trigger for "safety".

Girodin
November 8, 2010, 03:36 PM
Why would it be?
The MPR30 isn't a double-action gun with a heavy trigger for "safety".

Neither is the Sub2K and yet it has a just plain terrible trigger, its the one thing I truly dislike about that gun.

Interesting on all your dud center fire rounds. I have shot countless thousands (probably tens of thousands) of center fire rounds and I can think of 2 times I had issues. Both were with wolf ammo and both times the primer basically looked destroyed, I'm not sure what went on with those rounds. I experience dud rounds regularly with rim fire rounds, but much much less often with more expensive ammo as opposed to bulk boxes.

Failures happen, learn how to deal with it if you're ever shooting for serious reasons.

I wholeheartedly concur with that, clearing malfunctions is a basic skill set that anyone carrying a gun should build and continue to improve. Of course I would still rather have something less likely to require doing an immediate action drill than something more likely. When split seconds count a click followed by tap rack bang only takes a second.

Shawn Dodson
November 8, 2010, 08:48 PM
In response to DmL5:

13 were killed.

Thank you for correcting me.

The Fort Hood shooter simply sprayed bullets randomly into a crowd.

According to the victims he was “very deliberate”.

This is utterly irrelevant. Even the victims themselves attributed this to adrenaline, and similar stories can be found from survivors of the Virginia Tech massacre, where the shooter used 9mm hollow-points.

It’s not irrelevant if one is considering 5.7x28mm/FiveNSeven for defense. Its wounding effects are mild – comparable to .22 Magnum HP fired from a rifle.

Cite a source outside of ambiguous forum posts. For example, a news report detailing where the subjects were shot, and how the bullets "failed" to stop them.

No problem. I encourage everyone to call JSO and inquire for oneself - To reach the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office Public Information Office, please call (904) 630-2133.

DmL5
November 8, 2010, 10:33 PM
According to the victims he was “very deliberate”.The Fort Hood shooter fired on a large group of soldiers. He was definitely "very deliberate" in targeting soldiers over civilians. In fact, the witness that made that statement was a civilian and he said his life was spared by the shooter, along with the lives of several other civilians with him.

http://www.dentonrc.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/nation/stories/102010dntexhasan.1a6e2efb6.html

Even the female police officer's life was spared when she was down; the shooter only kicked her pistol out of reach and walked away.



It’s not irrelevant if one is considering 5.7x28mm/FiveNSeven for defense.Yes, it is irrelevant. See some of the stories from survivors of the Virginia Tech massacre; or the story I linked by a soldier whose arm was severely damaged by RPG shrapnel without his even being aware of it. You will find that such experiences are extremely common in dangerous situations, especially in cases where the victim is intently focused on some action such as escaping a rampage shooter, dragging other victims to safety, etc.



Its wounding effects are mild – comparable to .22 Magnum HP fired from a rifle.This comparison might have been valid; except in all likelihood, you cannot even point to any case where someone was shot and wounded with .22 WMR from a rifle. In reality, .22 WMR from a rifle is capable of penetrating 9.1 inches while expanding to a surprising .48 inches.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page2548.htm

This example falls a few inches short of the FBI penetration threshold, but in terms of expansion it is hardly "mild" in comparison to a typical 9mm loading. Meanwhile, EA 5.7x28mm civilian cartridges (from the Five-seveN pistol) push heavier projectiles at higher velocities, as independently chronographed by various sources.



No problem. I encourage everyone to call JSO and inquire for oneself - To reach the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office Public Information Office, please call (904) 630-2133. That is a clever ruse, but this phone number is not the source of your claim. Everything you posted was taken from ambiguous forum posts at Lightfighter. As long as you are simply reposting what you read elsewhere in forum posts, you might as well not post it at all. Let alone, ask for someone else to confirm it for you.

As I said previously, there is only one semi-detailed source on the shooting(s) in question (a local Jacksonville news article) and it does not agree with anything you have said on the subject.

Shawn Dodson
November 9, 2010, 10:34 PM
In reality, .22 WMR from a rifle is capable of penetrating 9.1 inches while expanding to a surprising .48 inches. It's performance is inadequate to reliably damage vitals in a human sized target.

That is a clever ruse, but this phone number is not the source of your claim. You can debate a "clever ruse" or you can personally contact JSO and verify for yourself their experience with 5.7x28mm in officer involved shootings and have them explain their rationale for removing it from service.

benderx4
November 9, 2010, 11:41 PM
Given these two guns, I think it's a no-brainer. Money aside, the FN is a much higher quality gun than the KelTec. Shooting the 5.7 is a total blast - figure on spending some big bucks on your outings. I love my FN - VERY different handgun than anything else in my safe.

DmL5
November 10, 2010, 12:27 AM
It's performance is inadequate to reliably damage vitals in a human sized target.Compared to EA 5.7x28mm cartridges fired out of the Five-seveN pistol, it's also a lighter projectile and produces significantly less velocity.


You can debate a "clever ruse" or you can personally contact JSO and verify for yourself their experience with 5.7x28mm in officer involved shootingsYou made the claim. It's your obligation, not mine, to back up what you said. In all likelihood you haven't actually called the number yourself, so go ahead and call it and get specific details (number of shots fired, hit locations, intermediate barriers, etc) from each of these supposed incidents; then post them here.


have them explain their rationale for removing it from serviceI have no problem believing Jacksonville, FL SWAT removed the P90 from service due to supposed "poor performance." The ambiguous Lightfighter posts said as much. What those posts (and your posts) don't say is where the subjects were shot, how many times they were shot, what intermediate barriers the bullets went through, etc, etc. Without these details, the accounts (even if they were actually verifiable) are meaningless. Perception is not reality.

For example, a certain Pennsylvania police department had two different shootings in 2006 where the subjects had to be shot in excess of 10 times each with .40 S&W to be stopped. In the first incident, it was touted that all .40 S&W bullets penetrated less than 1 inch into the subject. In the second incident, multiple rounds failed to penetrate the subject's car seat. The police department was disappointed with the bullet's performance and was considering switching from .40 S&W to .45 ACP handguns. By your flawed logic, their dissatisfaction with .40 S&W's performance would mean, regardless of details, that it is a poor performer; that it consistently penetrates less than 1 inch in human tissue; that it is incapable of penetrating a car seat; etc.

http://concealedcarryholsters.org/fbi-analysis-on-pa-police-shootout/

If you enjoyed reading about "FNH Five SeveN vs. Kel-Tec PMR 30" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!