Best pepper spray option

I'm interested in carrying pepper spray in addition to my concealed handgun. So far, I haven't done so because of doubts as to whether I can easily carry it concealed along with all my other stuff (wallet, keys, cell phone, handgun). My handgun normally fills one front pocket and the other stuff fills the other (I don't find it very comfortable to carry anything of significant size in a back pocket). In terms of brands, my research suggests the Fox products are the most potent. Would appreciate hearing what sprays others carry and how they comfortably conceal them.

I've been sprayed with OC spray as part of a course. The spray was about 1/8th of a second blast in my face. I was allowed to hold my breath and close my eyes. It's a delayed reaction, meaning that it wouldn't IMMEDIATELY stop a threat... however, after about 5 seconds or so, the searing pain was nearly incapacitating. I was allowed to towel off the excess OC spray. I was forced to do 'react to contact' drills under paintball fire, and I will frankly and honestly say that I could barely function. The searing heat and pain lasted hours, and gradually got better over the course of 10 hours and it was finally gone after I showered.

The brand is Fox labs. I have no affiliation with the company, but afterward I ordered several cans of it.

That being said, I would only use it if I were law enforcement trying to detain someone, of if there was a threat (for instance and unreasonable person I know gets too drunk, maybe a family member, and starts a fight, or maybe a dog fight, etc.). For most self defense if there's a violent person with a weapon I'm using my gun for defense. OC Spray is not generally in my self defense continium unless I am someplace that I cannot have a gun.

Fox will do.

I've been sprayed with OC spray as part of a course.
Was that in the military? I can't imagine many people volunteering to be pepper-sprayed. It's bad enough when one touches one's eyes after preparing hot peppers for cooking!

Yes, my experience was a course to which the military sent me, but it's offered for many in law enforcement, Department of Defense, CIA, FBI, etc.

I believe most law enforcement that use OC are required to certify regularly and certifcation (which I now have) requires 'participation' as the 'victim.'

I can't imagine many people volunteering to be pepper-sprayed.

Yet they do. One of our Mods has been through it and can assure you that he wouldn't volunteer again.

I've volunteered for being pepper sprayed. Wait a minute, I didn't volunteer. If you wan't to work here you have to carry it, and the only way is to be sprayed. So more like voluntold I suppose. I hope I never get it again. It really hurts, but it is often not an immediate threat stopper to a dedicated combative person.

Years ago I was an armed security guard as was my best friend and one night I had to spray a very druged up man. The reaction was a little slow but after a few seconds he no longer wanted to fight the rent-a-cop and was begging for some water. When the real cops showed up to take this nice man to jail they wouldn't get near him cause the stuff I used "aint the same sh*t they use". I had to do the cuff transfer and they called the for the van to take him away. There was no way you could have put that man in a car and tried to drive. Turns out the stuff I had was way stronger than what the fuzz was using and later I learned why. When the cops spray some one they have to deal with them where as a security guard I only used the spray to keep me from having to fight a big ass druged up guy. I told him the sooner he let me get the cuffs on the sooner I would get him some water for his face.

So the next day I had a half a can of spray left... long story short my buddy and I sprayed each other in his front yard "to see how bad it really is", we had a hell of a fight over his garden hose. Way Way worse than the CS chambes I went through in the Marines.

And the Fox labs stuff is little oil capsules, millions of the buggers, that contain the OC. Water doesn't work well to wash it off, and if you scrub it the capsules break. The best way to get it off is to dab it with towels; but that's hard to do when you are freaking out due to the pain.

Great stuff though.

I've been sprayed (work-related training years ago). Hurts like hell.

These days, just for ease of form factor I'm likely to grab a Kimber Pepper Blaster II.

But for potency? Fox Labs. N-A-S-T-Y stuff.

-Mark

Don't they sell wipes that are designed to clean that stuff off pretty well and alleviate the pain relatively quickly?

getting sprayed with Fox Labs is as much fun as bobbing for french fries in the fryer.

I think it's hard to beat the spitfire unit for form factor/ease of carry, intuitive use (points horizontally rather than vertically), and according to tests it's similar to fox labs...oh, it's fifteen bucks too...really fits easily on a keychain.

Fox Labs 5.3


It is the gold standard of OC that all the others are judged by.


You can find cheaper OC but you won't find anything better.

Fox Labs 5.3

I'm certain that's what I was 'peppered' by, and it's a miserable experience.

I'm certain that's what I was 'peppered' by, and it's a miserable experience.




5.3 million Scovilles of searing hot pepper spray is not a fun thing to have blasted in your face. ;)




It's not only the extremely refined pepper they use it's the carrier they use too.

Check local laws/statutes. I'm talking a bit "out of school" here, but I could swear Wisconsin has specific rules about which sprays can/can't be used. I see you're in TX. They likely don't have any such nonsense, but you may want to check anyway.

Here's the WI data:
http://datcp.state.wi.us/cp/consumerinfo/cp/factsheets/pepper_spray.jsp

Here's a short discussion on legality in TX:
http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/gun-legislation/1625-laws-pepper-spray.html

Check local laws/statutes. I'm talking a bit "out of school" here, but I could swear Wisconsin has specific rules about which sprays can/can't be used. I see you're in TX. They likely don't have any such nonsense, but you may want to check anyway.

Here's the WI data:
http://datcp.state.wi.us/cp/consumerinfo/cp/factsheets/pepper_spray.jsp

Here's a short discussion on legality in TX:
http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/gun-legislation/1625-laws-pepper-spray.html
TX allows chemical agents in "small" dispensers. AFAIK there is no guidance on what "small" means. I have ordered a 2oz Fox 5.3 million scovilles. Bit nervous this may not be considered small. I could have gone smaller (key chain, 11 gm) but I could also have gone larger (4oz).

Oh like any "weapon" if you get some hardass cop who doesn't like your attitude or the way you look, they can probably haul you in and I seriously doubt whether the size of the container is really gonna matter.


Of course they could do that with a pocket knife or even a screwdriver that you have on you.

Fox Labs is not that hot at .66 capsaicinoids. The US DoD formula is slightly hotter at .69 capsaicinoids. Also, someone earlier mentioned the "solvent" in Fax. NOT GOOD! They use Trichloroethylene. In its 9th report on carcinogens, the National Toxicology Program (NTP) determined that Trichloroethylene is "reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen".

MSI (Mace Security International) Pepper Gel/45 gram. Shoots 15 feet and sticks like glue.

MSI also makes pepper foam that is 10% pepper. The foam has some vision blocking capabilities that can shut down an attacker on impact. It sprays about 6-10 feet.

I have a small rectangular Kimber with two shots and a sealed trigger in the middle. I think it is called The Gurdian Angel. It comes in a nice metal tray box with foam insert. I think it was $49 or so - I got it for a birthday present and my wife got one as well.

I also have heard of a can of foam Wasp & Hornet killer that shoots 25 feet (they told me to make sure I get the 25' spray).

I know I have used that hornet spray and it does shoot in almost a perfectly straight line. A face-full of that would stop an assailant, I'm sure of it!

At least, with that, you could claim that you just happened to have it with you! Some people run into wasp nests during their normal working day, and for those people this stuff would be PERFECT~!

Looks like fun
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/Pepper_spray_Demonstration.jpg/800px-Pepper_spray_Demonstration.jpg

There is a new brand of pepper spray in the market called WASP. It too is 2%, 5.3 Million SHU just like Fox Labs, but it does not contain the carcinogen Trichloroethylene like Fox.

Fox Labs is not that hot at .66 capsaicinoids. The US DoD formula is slightly hotter at .69 capsaicinoids. Also, someone earlier mentioned the "solvent" in Fax. NOT GOOD! They use Trichloroethylene. In its 9th report on carcinogens, the National Toxicology Program (NTP) determined that Trichloroethylene is "reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen".Fox Labs is not that hot at .66 capsaicinoids. The US DoD formula is slightly hotter at .69 capsaicinoids. Also, someone earlier mentioned the "solvent" in Fax. NOT GOOD! They use Trichloroethylene. In its 9th report on carcinogens, the National Toxicology Program (NTP) determined that Trichloroethylene is "reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen".Your post prompted me to do a few minutes research and I found this http://www.cqbsupply.com/documents/10HowHotIsYourSpray.pdf, which confirms your data but indicates the hottest brands contain 1.25% total capsaicinoids (the Scoville Heat Units are less but they contain more of the active ingredient).

I also found the Fox Material Safety Data Sheet http://www.pepperspraysetc.com/msds/Pepper-Spray-Fox-Fog.pdf, which confirms that it does contain trichloroethylene. I think the Fox "Mean Green" product is water-based and could be a better choice than the solvent-based.

I also found this study http://www.sabrered.com/PDFs/University-of-UTAH-Study.pdf, which showed that the actual total capsaicinoids varied greatly from one batch of pepper spray to another as well as between brands. The study was published in 2001 so maybe quality control methods are better now.

So it's a carcinogen, does that mean we shouldn't use it because the bad guy might get cancer in 20 years???


"reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen"???


Ooookay.....:rolleyes:




Well maybe that's why it works better! ;)

So it's a carcinogen, does that mean we shouldn't use it because the bad guy might get cancer in 20 years???Pepper spray is used with the intent to use just sufficient force as prevent an immediate threat. It is not the intent to cause long-term injury to the attacker's health.

Your are absolutely correct about the fact that QA/QC is much better now. That Utah study was done along time ago and the professor who conducted it had some loyalty to Sabre at the time. However, I think he did the best with what technology he had available to him at that time. That Trichloroethylene is bad stuff!

No, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't use it because it has a carcinogen. It just means that the manufacturer is required by federal law to disclose it. And, any employee (especially females that are likely to bear children) are entitled to know BEFORE it happens that they are being exposed to an ingredient that (according to the US Army Test Center) may possibly contribute to birth defects. In my opinion, any reputable aerosol spray manufacturer would willingly post their MSDS on their website in PDF format for anyone to download.

No, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't use it because it has a carcinogen.I would prefer not to use a spray containing carcinogens if an effective alternative is available. In defending myself with pepper spray, I have no intention to cause long-term health effects. I also prefer to use non-carcinogenic products generally when possible as it reduces occupational risks for those employed in manufacturing these products.

Oookay.....


If you guys prefer enviromentally safe Pepper-Spray that no dolphins were harmed in it's production, then great!


Sounds kinda politically-correct to me but hey you do what you gotta do guys.

Oookay.....


If you guys prefer enviromentally safe Pepper-Spray that no dolphins were harmed in it's production, then great!


Sounds kinda politically-correct to me but hey you do what you gotta do guys.I don't know how dolphins cropped up! Personally, I want do my bit for health, safety, and the environment by avoiding carcinogens in the products I buy -- if I can. You can call it "politically correct"if you want but I'm not doing it because I feel the need to conform to anyone else but because I think it is right according to my personal sense of morality/ethics.

Oookay.....


If you guys prefer enviromentally safe Pepper-Spray that no dolphins were harmed in it's production, then great!


Sounds kinda politically-correct to me but hey you do what you gotta do guys.

Oookay. If you are the passive aggressive type of forumite who is so smug and somehow feels so justified that he would prefer to use what may in some sense amount to inappropriate force (or unnecessary harm) on any "threat," then great!

Sounds ignorant to me. But type what you gotta type, guy.

Well that's nice but personally I shoot guns that use lead bullets.


Now lead is also a suspected carcinogen and a well known toxin.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10940970


So are you gonna quit shooting too or buy enviromentally safe all copper bullets?


You wouldn't wanna give that poor ol' badguy lead poisoning now would you? ;)




If this is something that feel strongly about morally/ethically then let your conscience be your guide.


Personally I just want what works best even if it may be "reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen".


There's a lot of things in life that carry a certain amount of risk with them.




Good luck and be safe with whatever it is you choose.

Weevil, you mention "bad guys" a lot. Clearly you don't seem to recognize or at least acknowledge that thousands "good guys" such as police officers, correctional officers and military personnel are sprayed every day in training exercises. In fact, I have a friend that is an OC instructor for a large law enforcement agency in FL that has been an instructor for 12 years in his 7,000 + man police agency. He has literally been sprayed practically every day during that time period. Would you by chance have any health concerns for him or his family?

Weevil, you mention "bad guys" a lot. Clearly you don't seem to recognize or at least acknowledge that thousands "good guys" such as police officers, correctional officers and military personnel are sprayed every day in training exercises. Smgrusty: Great point that I hadn't thought of. Hopefully, the police, military, and correctional facility procurement personnel are checking the MSDS (material safety data sheets) for the products they buy. If not, they should be.

Personally I just want what works best even if it may be "reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen".Do you have any reason to think the trichloroethylene-based pepper sprays are more effective than the water-based? It is true that the solvent itself is an added irritant, but I understand that Fox increases the capsaicinoid content of its water-based spray "Mean Green" to compensate for that. Maybe other companies do something similar. My first purchase of a spray was of the Fox solvent-based variety because it was a few dollars cheaper but I will be definitely buying a water-based spray next time. No reason not to unless someone can show me it is significantly less effective.

There is no study that says Fox is more effective. In fact, quite the contrary. The most comprehensive study ever conducted on commercially available was done just a few year sago by the US Army at Aberdeen Proving Ground. Check out the below link and click on "Download the US Army test Data For Your Files). They tested 4,000 cans for 8 months.

http://www.cqbsupply.com/formtech.html

I recently bought my girlfriend a small cannister of pepperspray with a belt clip to carry in her handbag and on her person. I am confident that it will give her enough time to evade danger when the need arise.

I got her the direct stream system instead of the fog delivery system because, even though accuracy becomes important, I don't want to risk her being affected by the product as well.

A nice tip I read is to fasten the seatbelt in your vehicle and then clip the cannister onto the seatbelt where your buckle clips in. This way, you can reach for it in a non-threatening/suspicious way.

Check out the below link and click on "Download the US Army test Data For Your Files). They tested 4,000 cans for 8 months.

http://www.cqbsupply.com/formtech.htmlsmgrusty, where can one purchase CQB pepper spray? I couldn't find a stockist on a quick Google search and wondered if maybe it's not available to the public.

Freeze +P has been effective. It also contains a dye so someone sprayed can be identified later.

Originally Posted by smgrusty
Weevil, you mention "bad guys" a lot. Clearly you don't seem to recognize or at least acknowledge that thousands "good guys" such as police officers, correctional officers and military personnel are sprayed every day in training exercises.

Smgrusty: Great point that I hadn't thought of. Hopefully, the police, military, and correctional facility procurement personnel are checking the MSDS (material safety data sheets) for the products they buy. If not, they should be.

Yeah, the military and police would never place us in danger...:what:

i'll stick with fox.. worked for me a few times on some homeless persons agressively harassing me at a gas station for a window wash.

let's actually see what the NTP's report says about Trichloroethylene.



•Trichloroethylene - Trichloroethylene is listed in the 9th Report as "reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen." It is used mainly as a degreaser for metal parts and at one time was used to decaffeinate coffee. The Report states the listing is based on limited findings of elevated liver and biliary tract cancer rates in occupational groups exposed to trichloroethylene and sufficient evidence of cancer formation in experimental animal studies.


And.......

It is important to understand that the Report identifies potential cancer hazards. A listing in the Report does not by itself establish that a substance presents a cancer risk to an individual in daily life.

People should not make decisions concerning the use of a given drug, or any other listed agent, based solely on the information contained in the Report.


Straight from the horse's mouth!


Read it for yourself.

http://www.niehs.nih.gov/news/releases/news-archive/2000/9thROC.cfm

i'll stick with fox.. worked for me a few times on some homeless persons agressively harassing me at a gas station for a window wash.How aggressive were they? Did you actually spray them?

... let's actually see what the NTP's report says about Trichloroethylene.

•Trichloroethylene - Trichloroethylene is listed in the 9th Report as "reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen." ... The Report states the listing is based on limited findings of elevated liver and biliary tract cancer rates in occupational groups exposed to trichloroethylene and sufficient evidence of cancer formation in experimental animal studies.


And.......

It is important to understand that the Report identifies potential cancer hazards. A listing in the Report does not by itself establish that a substance presents a cancer risk to an individual in daily life.

People should not make decisions concerning the use of a given drug, or any other listed agent, based solely on the information contained in the Report.The report is just trying to present its findings in a balanced way through its qualifications. IMO if trichloroethylene is "reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen" as the report states, then it should be replaced with something else if a safer and effective substitute exists -- and it seems to exist because Fox themselves as well as a number of other companies produce sprays that do not contain trichloroethylene (Fox produces its "Mean Green" spray).

If you don't think Fox Labs is effective, get sprayed with it. Then come back here and say it's not effective.

Trichloroethylene is "reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen".

Just like anything, with TCE the dose makes the poison. Risk of cancer would only become a concern for trainers or officers who come in frequent contact with it. The civilian or ordinary officer, or BG, won't have to worry about it.

Leadcounsel, I went back and read all of the emails and did not find one (1) that said or even suggested that Fox was not effective. The issue is, does the formulation have to contain a carcinogen to be effective? And the clear answer to that NO. There are many brands available that are extremely effective without the use of a toxic chemicals.

HSO, you are correct in saying that the civilian or ordinary officer should not be concerned. However, the issue is not whether or not anyone is likely to get cancer. The primary issue (aside from effectiveness on the intended target) is the federal law that requires all employers to notify police officers & correctional officers that they are being sprayed with a carcinogen PRIOR to it happening. believe it or not, there are correctional agencies with 10,000 + employees that are spraying this stuff every day on both employees and inmates every day and it is not necessary. Also, to the issue of "effectiveness". Ingredients like ultraviolet dye (which have no burning or heat generating capacity) are simply like soybeans in hamburger meat. They are a "filler" and do not enhance or contribute to the "effectiveness" of the total formula. I get the fact that ultra-violet dye will allow an attacker to be identified later (if they can be found). But one would be much better served with a spray that does not contain any ingredients that inhibit the "active ingredient" from performing its intended function. Which by the way is simply to cause the subject/attacker to close their eyes so they can no longer see, not hurt them.

Would the Fox Labs spray work for camping in bear country? Or should I get a bear specific brand?

SMGRUSTY, I was refering to this statement:

There is no study that says Fox is more effective. In fact, quite the contrary.

SMGRUSTY, I was refering to this statement: There is no study that says Fox is more effective. In fact, quite the contrary. leadcounsel, if you read that again you will see that smgrusty is not saying Fox is ineffective. He is saying it is not more effective [than certain others]. He presented data that showed that other brands have up to twice the capsaicin content of Fox, http://www.cqbsupply.com/images_new/hhpage4.pdf.

Get a can of bear spray hat should do it. Seen a guy sprayed with it he couldn see for four hours but then they could and probably will sue you.

How aggressive were they? Did you actually spray them?

incident #1
just getting out of my car to gas up, perp that looks homeless approachs and starts to wipe down my windows.... I said no windows today. he continues and does it..then demands $2. I give a verbal command for him to step away from my vehicle, he advances torwards me and I put my hand out signaling stop.. 5-8 ft. steps closer and i administer a 3 second burst directly to him. damn that guy screams and walks around then gets on the ground screaming on his knees! Do not try to get back up or you will be sprayed again.

incident #2
gas station filling up my car, homeless or agressive panhandler approachs me and asks for money. I order him to step away from me and he gets verbally agressive with physical gestures to advance. I draw and spray... goes down like a mike tyson and hoyfield double take down *ding ding*

Fox makes some good stuff! Much less problem-o with the fox oc than a knife or firearm draw on the guy. No physical contact except for the spray..... very effective at street thugs, homeless or mentally ill.

I've used CQB before, they have the scientific data but Fox gets the same if not better result proven. Fox is better than cqb, vexor and whatever else has been around making the police or public safety feel special because they sold/marketed only to police or public safety.

I've been exposed to at least four different types of pepper spray at various times, and I can say, without reservation, that Fox 5.3 was by far the worst ("best" for the person doing the spraying) of the lot. Nothing put me out of action quicker and kept me out of action longer than Fox Labs. It is truly evil stuff.

Mike