Are you reloading for a modern 45-70 rifle? Marlin, Ruger


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Ridgerunner665
June 9, 2010, 12:02 AM
Mods...if this isn't allowed, remove it with my apologies.

But we need more pressure tested data...if Hodgden can do it, so can everybody else. (namely Alliant).

I think it would be a valuable asset to have more verifiable data...its a safety risk ;)


http://www.alliantpowder.com/questions/default.aspx

Click that link... and up on the top right you'll see the "contact" link....Click it, fill out the info (name, address, email, etc.)...then, in the question box...let em have it.

Tell them we need load data for MODERN 45-70 rifles (at least 40,000 psi for Marlins and 50,000 psi for Rugers)...I sent them a message just now.

If they hear it enough they just might do it...they have a couple of good powders for the 45-70, and just added some new powders...2 of which I believe will be usable in the 45-70.

Make some noise guys and gals...get us some more published load data for modern rifles.


For crying out loud...people have been shooting 40,000 psi loads in Marlins for over 20 years now (and I told them this in that message), its time to move past the old and into the new...:)

EDITED TO ADD: I specifically mentioned in my message that Hodgden has this type of load data available online...and that was my reason for using Hodgden powders in the 45-70. I also mentioned the rise in popularity the 45-70 is currently enjoying...

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Ridgerunner665
June 9, 2010, 12:51 AM
I added a poll...its a public poll, we can see who voted what.

steveno
June 9, 2010, 05:10 AM
after owning a Ruger #1S in 45-70 and trying some of Elmer's memorial loads I don't see any reason to load a 45-70 that hot. certainly a #1 can take the pressure but the recoil is brutal and hardly promotes practicing with the rifle. the additional power really doesn't increase the range that much unless you really practice a lot. I have also had a Marlin guide gun in 45-70 and I would definitely not want to shoot that heavy of loads in it because the recoil was even worse than the Ruger #1S

1858
June 9, 2010, 06:03 AM
Are you reloading for a modern 45-70 rifle? Marlin, Ruger

Yep!! So far I've been using VihtaVuori N130 and Remington 405gr JSPs but just received 500 405gr Laser Cast bullets from Oregon Trail. I plan on using a different powder (not sure which one yet) ... one that is readily available.

I filled out the form on Alliant's web page aksing them to provide load data for the .45-70 Govt in the 40,000 psi range. VihtaVuori loads max out at 30,000 psi.

:)

Ridgerunner665
June 9, 2010, 10:38 AM
Thank you 1858...

Asherdan
June 9, 2010, 04:32 PM
I pinged them. I've had good success with Rx7 in the 45-70 and would love to see lab tested data to the mentioned levels. I referenced that and the fact that I've had to go over to Hodgdon powders (H4198) for that level of performance. I'd like to see data for Rx10 as well.

Ridgerunner665
June 9, 2010, 10:21 PM
Thanks guys for the sent emails...I have this going on 2 forums, and its off to a slow start on both of them...LOL.

Oh well, I believe its a good idea...we'll see where it goes.

1858
June 9, 2010, 10:53 PM
Oh well, I believe its a good idea...we'll see where it goes.

Options are always a good idea. I'd much rather have load data for 40,000 psi .45-70 loads than not ... even if I decide that I don't want to use it. Knowledge is power ... and 40,000 psi in a .45-70 is REAL power!

:)

cottonmouth
June 10, 2010, 11:55 AM
What pressure range would 61 grains of IMR 3031 under a 300 grain Sierra JHP be in?

J.B.

Ridgerunner665
June 10, 2010, 02:37 PM
About 25,000 cup (or just under 28,000 psi)... http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp


64 grains is all the 3031 that can be stuffed under a 300 gr. Sierra...for 29,500 cup.

ArchAngelCD
June 11, 2010, 05:13 AM
64 grains is all the 3031 that can be stuffed under a 300 gr. Sierra...for 29,500 cup.
I suggest if you want to get more velocity without going to high on the pressure with that 300gr Sierra bullet give 4895 a try. I think that powder will make you happy...

Ridgerunner665
June 11, 2010, 07:11 AM
H322 is even better...and extremely accurate, especially with compressed charges.

63 grains under a 300 grain bullet gives 2,300 fps from my Marlin with only 32,600 cup (appx. 34,500 psi)


Why are people not emailing Alliant? I don't get it...

Asherdan
June 11, 2010, 03:55 PM
So, I got a response...

Date: Thursday, June 10, 2010, 3:17 PM

We have some lever action loads in our online tables. Have you seen
them?

Ben Amonette
Consumer Service Manager
Alliant Powder Company


So I went ahead and replied...

Hi Ben,

Yes, I have seen them. Since you've dropped pressure data from your manual I'm inferring from earlier data (the 2004 manual in particular) that Alliant's available lever action data is operating to the same 28k CUP level. I'm inquiring about expanding that pressure level, as Hodgdon has, to appropriate pressure thresholds for rifles such as the Marlin 1895 and Ruger #1.

Thanks,
XXXX XXXXXXXX

We'll see where this goes. I specifically mentioned the pressure levels I was interested in with my first email, so I'm not sure if my actual question was sidestepped or if it's being assumed I can't look at prior data and figure close to current load levels...

1858
June 11, 2010, 04:24 PM
Ben Amonette must be wondering what's going on. He sent me a couple of emails yesterday along the lines of "have I tried Reloder 7 and Reloader 10X". I was impressed with how quickly he responded to my initial request for 40,000 psi load data and my follow-up emails. I don't expect Alliant to stop the presses to focus on our little "problem". In fact, I'd go as far as to say we're on our own.

I would suggest Quickload as a tool to help in the safe development of high-end .45-70 loads. Nothing beats empirical data but I only have two '95's to break and one life to live!

:)

Asherdan
June 11, 2010, 05:08 PM
In fact, I'd go as far as to say we're on our own.

You win a prize, sir!


These lever action loads were developed by Speer and upon looking in their #14 manual, they hold pressures to 28,000 CUP. In the same manual, they also have some loads for the Ruger #1 which go to 35,000 CUP. I doubt they have plans to increase these pressure limits.

Thanks for your return note and have a nice weekend.

Ben Amonette
Consumer Service Manager
Alliant Powder Company

Oh well...

As long as they don't have another formula change for Rx7 I have my hunting loads lined out with it. And if they do I guess H4198 and H322 will work just fine for me.

Maj Dad
June 11, 2010, 10:08 PM
I have an older modern ( ca. 1973) Marlin 1895 that I load 300 gr Hornady & Sierras with 53-56 gr of 3031 for somewhere between 1800 & 2000 fps. In some manuals, that's over the top, in others, near the top, but I have never had any pressure problems & they shoot into 1" & have for 35 years. I loaded 405 gr slugs and after shooting less than 10 I gave them to a friend. They weren't uncomfortable, they were painful (my rifle has the hard curved butt, so that is a big contributor). They were also unnecessary for me, so I dumped them. What is the source of the pressures you quoted, and the difference between older industry figures & yours - just curious, no negative connotations. I simply haven't seen any data relating to higher pressures for Marlins (& Ruger #1/3s, etc). If stouter loads are safe, I would try them, but I am a Reagan Republican: "Trust, but verify." ;)

Asherdan
June 11, 2010, 10:26 PM
Hodgdon's online guide contains loads to the pressure's mentioned.

I started looking around and thinking on it after I was pointed to Joe at Real Guns (http://www.realguns.com/archives/069.htm) work testing out beyond standard spec loads using an Oehler M43. Check out his free archive, he runs through his test protocol and has developed useful jacketed and cast loads.

Ridgerunner665
June 11, 2010, 11:10 PM
Mr. Amonette isn't hearing what were saying...he's reciting what he's been told.

I already knew they used Speer load data...but 35,000 psi in a Ruger? Thats a mouse fart load for a Ruger...

EddieNFL
June 13, 2010, 06:46 PM
I've had the itch for a Sharps for some time and I am about to pull the trigger (no pun intended). I plan to cast my own and looking at the Hodgdon site, I noticed 4895 is listed. Since I have almost two full kegs, great. But then I noticed Trail Boss is listed as a reduced load. Sixteen grains versus fifty...handloaders dream. Then I saw the cost of TB! It's right UP there with VihtaVuori powders.

Maj Dad
June 13, 2010, 07:36 PM
Hodgdon's online guide contains loads to the pressure's mentioned.

I looked at the Hodgdon Online Manual and only saw Trapdoor loads listed in 45-70 - is there another source or did I miss something?

EddieNFL
June 13, 2010, 08:00 PM
I saw load data for trap door, lever and modern rifles.

Ridgerunner665
June 13, 2010, 10:18 PM
On Hodgdens online data...they have 3 listings for 45-70.

Trapdoor (less than 28,000 cup)
Lever action (eg. Marlin 1895 made after 1972...less than 40,000 cup )
Modern rifle (eg. Ruger #1...less than 50,000 cup)

Maj Dad
June 14, 2010, 08:40 PM
Aha! I had downloaded it but that version only has Trapdoor loads - probably operator error... :o

But I also saw that there are IMR loads approaching and at 40K cup for H & IMR 4198, 3031, 4064 and 4895 - what am I missing here? Obviously, you can't cram more 3031 in the case for 300 gr bullets to get higher pressures, but several loads are right there. I am not disparaging at all, just looking for the gist of the OP & subsequent posters. If I can load 4198 to 2400 fps for a 300gr bullet, I probably will; I had even bought it a couple of years ago to try out, but let me tell you, heavy recoil in my straight-stocked, hard crescent butt plated rifle is not to be taken lightly (I know, I need a recoil pad, and maybe a bearer to shoot it, too... :rolleyes: ).

Still ruminating on this one.... :scrutiny:

Ridgerunner665
June 14, 2010, 09:48 PM
4198 (either of them) is possibly the most versatile powder for the 45-70...it can be loaded mild to wild and accurate all the way. 4198 isn't great at anything...but its good for everything in 45-70.

4198 and H335 are the only powders on Hodgdens site that will generate 40,000 cup with 300 grain bullets...

Compressed loads of H322 under 300 grain bullets are super accurate...but a tad slower than a full load of 4198.

Ridgerunner665
June 14, 2010, 09:54 PM
Everybody is asking questions...but nobody is emailing Alliant.

Whats up with that?

Hell, if Alliant don't listen...email Speer. (I did) http://www.speer-bullets.com/general/contact_us.aspx

Maj Dad
June 14, 2010, 11:27 PM
Please bear with me and don't think I am being petulant - far from it. I am not sure what the issue for Alliant is - since there are already loads at & approaching 40k cup, what more do we need from them? If it's more detailed pressure testing, I can see that to a degree, but beyond that, I am not sure.

Again, please don't take offense - I am always in support of better data, and just want to make sure I understand the issue fully.
:scrutiny:

Ridgerunner665
June 15, 2010, 12:00 AM
Alliant does not have this data...not for Marlins (40,000 cup).

Alliant (Speer) only loads the Marlin to 28k psi...and the Ruger to 35k psi.

That is quite a ways from the potential of both rifles...especially the Ruger.

You cannot simply take the Ruger loads and use them in a Marlin...at least not with certain bullets, because the OAL is different.

We need "Marlin specific" high octane 45-70 load data...


Me personally...I don't really need it, I have access to lots of "tried and true" load data for the 45-70.

But many people are buying 45-70's and having to go about the full power loads the hard way...and many more don't even know the marlin can be loaded up to this level.

The data needs to be made available simply because it can be done...and without a lot of cost or fuss. We buy their products...its their job to offer support for those products..."up to date" support.

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