Do you think there's an advantage to DAO?


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Atticum
June 11, 2010, 04:38 PM
The question applies to automatics as well, but I'm interested in how revolver owners feel about this.

The two (seemingly) largest subgroups of automatic owners are Glock and 1911 owners. While 1911 is SAO, it shares one common trait with DAO: the same trigger pull every shot.

Applying this logic to revolvers, do you think there is an advantage to having a DAO (i.e. Ruger .357) over a DA/SA revolver (i.e. S&W .357)?

Does anyone feel that the need to learn two different pulls and the transition between DA/SA hurts a revolver in some capacity? What capacity would that be? (Defense, target shooting, trigger control, speed, etc.)

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oldfool
June 11, 2010, 04:43 PM
no
options = advantage
lack of options = disadvantage

prediction = minority viewpoint

rcmodel
June 11, 2010, 04:46 PM
Shooting a revolver DA allows me to miss more faster.

I do some handgun varmint hunting at longer ranges, and if I can't cock it for SA fire, I won't own it.

rc

Paladin7
June 11, 2010, 05:03 PM
There is no issue with DA / SA transition on a revolver. In a defensive scenario its all DA shooting.

The DA/SA of the revolver gives you options for field use. You could come up with a few scenarios where SA might work in a defensive scenario, but a good DA shot need not bother with SA for defense.

For a strictly defensive pistol, my preference is DAO. Same consistent trigger pull over and over again and no filthy lawyer tricks about how you cocked your gun and it negligently went off maiming or killing your poor underprivileged assailant. DAO means every shot was intentional and this is a very good thing in a court of law.

If you practice with a DAO you will find that the accuracy and control you can develop will be remarkable. Read the exploits of Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan, Ed McGivern, et. al. There is a lot of real world experience out there on this.

For a general purpose revolver I'd leave it DA/SA.

Rexster
June 11, 2010, 05:08 PM
The Glock is not DAO; the reset is shorter for follow-up shots, but many Glock shooters have not noticed, and think Glocks are DAO. There are DAO revolvers sold by both S&W and Ruger, and both of those companies also sell fully DA revolvers, that can be cocked and fired SA as an option.

That being said, it is not so much that DAO offers any advantage, as that being able to cock a revolver offers another mode of shooting, that being SA. I have little use for cocking a defensive revolver; perhaps no use at all, so it is a matter of SA not offering me any real advantage, at least not in my snubbies and 3" revolvers.

The spur-less hammer can be an advantage, during a hurried draw from under clothing or from within a pocket, but a spur-less hammer can retain its SA mode. I have a Ruger SP101 and a Speed Six that can be cocked and fired SA, in spite of having bobbed hammers. That particular SP101's hammer is NOT the currently produced hammer, and of course, the Speed Six is out of production. (Yes, they can be de-cocked safely, in case anyone is wondering.)

At least once, a police officer was accused in court of cocking the hammer of his duty revolver, and accidentally/negligently shooting a suspect in the head, opening the officer to being charged in the death of the suspect. (Killing by accident or negligence is a lesser charge than murder, but still an offense, and also opens the door to civil liability.) Some, therefore, see DAO as an advantage in the legal aftermath of a shooting incident. Me? I didn't worry about it enough to have my duty sixguns "neutered." Perhaps, if I'd ever had to "snipe" with a sixgun, from an improvised rest, I might have wanted SA.

MrBorland
June 11, 2010, 05:11 PM
do you think there is an advantage to having a DAO (i.e. Ruger .357) over a DA/SA revolver (i.e. S&W .357)?

Depends on the application. I shoot DA almost exclusively, but even I'd admit for some applications, (a bullseye or hunting/varmint revolver), I'd want SA capability.

if the application fits, though, IMO, there's quite a bit to be said for DAO. Cunningham wrote it best, so I'll just pate his link.

http://grantcunningham.com/blog_files/the_case_for_dao.html

In addition to Cunningham's thoughts:

DAO = lighter hammer = faster lock time = more accuracy.

DAO = lighter hammer = less hammer momentum = less hammer strike to jar the sight picture = more accuracy.

DAO = lighter hammer = faster hammer strike = more hammer kinetic energy = ability to lighten hammer spring without affecting primer ignition = lighter trigger pull.

Check out this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmy5mkjpUNI

It's been rendered DAO, and demonstrates point #2 nicely. You'll note I also try the same trick with a DA/SA revolver in another vid and wasn't able to keep the coin balanced when the trigger broke.

As to point #3, the 686 in the video's got a 7 1/2# DA trigger pull and lights off everything I've fed it reliably, even stubborn CCI primers.

As to point #1, it's an IDPA/ICORE gun, but makes a dandy target gun as well.

http://postalmatch.blogspot.com/2010/05/april-2010-results-dont-tread-on-me.html

Does anyone feel that the need to learn two different pulls and the transition between DA/SA hurts a revolver in some capacity?

As said, I shoot a lot of DA. And practice a lot. But I also try to practice SA some for target work. It's either/or, though, so there's no "transition" for me.

For a general purpose revolver I'd leave it DA/SA

+1

Tallinar
June 11, 2010, 05:29 PM
Clearest advantage I could see to DAO is to prevent accidental cocking by having the hammer get caught on clothing or something. Then again, people have been safely carrying DA and SA revolvers for decades without issue as long as basic safety precautions are followed.

The thoughts behind the shooting benefits of having a lighter hammer make some sense, I suppose.

I'm not a fan of DAO, but I can see certain benefits. To each his own.

Then again, I fall into the minority that sees a single action revolver as a perfectly legitimate carry piece, so maybe I'm disqualified from commenting on DAO. :)

gunnie
June 11, 2010, 05:30 PM
for SD ~ONLY~ use, yes.
below stats from NYPD that likely played a big role in them issuing DAO revolvers:

http://www.pointshooting.com/1asop9.htm

gunnie

Nushif
June 11, 2010, 06:43 PM
I own both a 1911 and a DAO revolver as well as DA/SA guns of both kinds.

That being said I do think there is a distinct advantage to having the same trigger pull every time. The exact trigger pull, be it SA or DA can be trained for, to make for great accuracy and personally I don't think I'll ever buy a "mixed trigger" again.

W.E.G.
June 11, 2010, 06:54 PM
The only advantage of the DAO is the low price J&G is charging for the used Smith and Wesson model 64's.

http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/smith-wesson/revolver/p/smith-wesson-model-64-38spl-4in-stainless%2C-square-butt-w-bobbed-hammer-good-to-very-good-condition/cPath/16_211_431/products_id/3806

I changed the hammer on one to DA/SA, but there were issues that made it not an especially economical decision. Although, I did learn a good bit about the innards and issues of the S&W revolver in the process.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/pistol%20pics/DSCN6450smaller.jpg

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/pistol%20pics/brokenfiringpin1-1.jpg

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/pistol%20pics/brokenfiringpin2-1.jpg

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/pistol%20pics/brokenfiringpin3-1.jpg

saltydog452
June 11, 2010, 07:03 PM
I used to wake with all cylinders firing. Bright eyed and maybe a bit frisky.

Not so anymore.

Although I like shooting SA semi-autos. An in the house side arm will be DAO or a revolver.

Stuff changes.

salty

shockwave
June 11, 2010, 07:40 PM
I see no advantage to DAO, as the S&W 638 solves hammer-snagging issues. Similar shrouded hammer snubbies offer both options. Maybe the SD situation will involve pulling and firing as fast as possible - the DAO scenario - but maybe you'll need a precision shot. If I have time, I'll cock the hammer first.

I would not buy a DAO revolver. Some people do and that's fine. We all work out the pros and cons to our own advantage.

Drail
June 11, 2010, 07:45 PM
If you can learn to be fast and accurate with a DAO trigger, you are going to be a better all around shooter than most folks. It will force you to pay close attention to the front sight. Many shooters are not willing to put in the time to reach this level of skill. The best example of this level of skill is observing Jerry Miculek work a S&W so fast you cannot hear the individual shots. (reacting to a signal and raising the gun and firing 6 rounds per second and hitting the target) Or very old films of Ed McGivern giving a demo.

oldfool
June 11, 2010, 08:16 PM
that's what I love about this place, always something to learn...
never realized until just now that...

S&W Model 64 revolvers,
S&W Model 625 revolvers,
Smith & Wesson M&P Target revolvers

were all DAO
not SA/DA

Atticum
June 11, 2010, 10:45 PM
I think the 64s were police trade in modified to be DAO for safety/reliability purposes.

angel1216
June 11, 2010, 11:08 PM
no advantage! to each is own on this one! i like DAO. that's all

The Lone Haranguer
June 11, 2010, 11:15 PM
I believe you should do your defensive shooting in DA, as cocking the hammer could lead to unintentionally shooting someone. But I see little need to modify the revolver to only shoot DA. The biggest advantage - and the one exception I would make for - of DAO revolvers is for pocket carry, where their "bobbed" or enclosed hammers eliminate the chances of snagging.

oldfool
June 13, 2010, 05:20 PM
I believe you should do your defensive shooting in DA, as cocking the hammer could lead to unintentionally shooting someone. But I see little need to modify the revolver to only shoot DA. The biggest advantage - and the one exception I would make for - of DAO revolvers is for pocket carry, where their "bobbed" or enclosed hammers eliminate the chances of snagging.
agree pert-near 100%
sort of depends on how long they are willing to stand still, though

pray you never have to kill anyone, try really hard not to, but if given no choice, try your best, make it as intentional as possible, and if it ain't... lie... but keep your finger off the trigger unless you really, really mean it... guys who shoot 1911s don't worry about unintentional (SA) near as much as us wheelgun guys do

agree w/ Drail, too, plus some
IMO, learning to shoot well in DA mode will help you shoot just a little bit better with any handgun you shoot, including pistolas

SWAddict
June 13, 2010, 07:01 PM
I see DAO as an advantage to anyone who may have a gun (revolver or semi-auto) pointed at them by a law enforcement officer or security guard. If their adrenaline is pumping, it is an easy thing for a cocked hammer to go off if the officer or guard's hands are shaking. Misunderstandings happen and innocent people who are not committing crimes do get guns drawn on them.

Deanimator
June 13, 2010, 08:22 PM
DA on a revolver is so much better than on a semi-auto that I suppose that DAO would be an option, but one which I would only want on a J-Frame Smith. I wouldn't mind a pre-lock Centennial, since they're so easy to manipulate and have so few things to catch on clothing.

9mmepiphany
June 13, 2010, 08:27 PM
the DAO has the advantage in a limited situations; rapid and accurate fire on a mansized target out to 50 yards...that's how we shot S&W K and L-frames in PPC

the DA trigger stroke, if one is trained correctly, is just as accurate out to that distance when shooting at the pace of shooting as the sights re-align on target (about 3-5 shots/sec). there is less tendency to snatch at the trigger than in SA and the DA trigger stroke actually improves you SA trigger stroke.

one would hope that anyone who would attempt a shot beyond 100 yards would have the trigger control needed to correctly manage a SA trigger

JohnKSa
June 13, 2010, 08:32 PM
There are advantages and disadvantages. The biggest advantage, in my opinion, is totally eliminating the possibility of ever having to decock a loaded revolver after a high-stress incident.

Vern Humphrey
June 13, 2010, 09:23 PM
The two (seemingly) largest subgroups of automatic owners are Glock and 1911 owners. While 1911 is SAO, it shares one common trait with DAO: the same trigger pull every shot.

Applying this logic to revolvers, do you think there is an advantage to having a DAO (i.e. Ruger .357) over a DA/SA revolver (i.e. S&W .357)?
In auto pistols, DA/SA is a disadvantage, since the first shot is DA and succeeding shots are SA. That's because the recoil action cocks the pistol for the next shot.

That is not the case with a revolver -- in a defensive situation you fire the first shot DA, the second shot DA, and so on. The gun doesn't cock itself, regardless of its lockwork.

You might worry about the hammer snagging on your clothing and bob it, but even so, you don't need to change the lockwork.

Confederate
June 13, 2010, 10:33 PM
It always annoyed me when Massad Ayoob would argue that DAO revolvers would bolster your case in court against "unscrupulous" prosecutors if you had to shoot someone in self defense. He may be right, but God forbid that we buy all our guns so as to win in court. He also argued against having a tuned action for your self defense gun (and by tuned I mean having an action that's been lightened). Such guns, he says, can give prosecutors the excuse to go for a manslaughter charge because you may have accidentally pulled the trigger, and if it fires single action, they can say you shot it in single action, even if you fired it in double action.

These things may be debatable if you're carrying a gun with a "hair trigger," but if you're in your own home, you ought to be able to have and use any gun you happen to have lying around. In other words, someone who breaks into your home shouldn't dictate what kind of a gun you have to repel him.

I wouldn't own a DAO gun for any reason. A DAO revolver wouldn't prove anything in a court of law because it can be cocked with only a little extra effort. In fact, I can't think of a single reason to own a DAO revolver, and I certainly wouldn't want to own a DAO automatic, nor would I own a Glock, which I think would be a very good gun if it had a safety. As it is, it's just an accident waiting to happen.

Just my opinion.

Blakenzy
June 13, 2010, 10:59 PM
Don't DAO triggers(factory, not cut down DASA) have less overtravel than DA/SA triggers in the double action mode?

JohnKSa
June 13, 2010, 11:53 PM
A DAO revolver wouldn't prove anything in a court of law because it can be cocked with only a little extra effort.A DAO revolver can't be cocked at all. That's why it's called Double Action ONLY.

Oyeboten
June 14, 2010, 01:46 AM
Do you think there's an advantage to DAO?


I imagine that most American Double Action able Revolvers since the 1880s were also Single Action able, because people understood that there would be an advantage having both options for situations calling for one, or, the other.

For defensive Double Action Revolver to be carried on one's person, there would tend to be no need for the Single Action mode.

DOA only Automatics would seem to have been a way of patronizing users/operatives too unskilled or dim-witted to be allowed to operate an Arm in the first place, and, hence, have been successful and popular.


DOA Revolvers I expect would be fine for people who have decided they have no use for Single Action occasions with that particular Revolver.

SAA only Revolvers magaged fine for a long time, and, in skilled hands, did everything or anything anyone felt could need to be done...if maybe while conceeding that in the same Hands, a Double Action Revolver could sometimes have been welcome.

A completely Bobbed Hammer on a SAA is of course seen as being a faux pas.

Where a completely Bobbed Hammer on a Double Action Revolver is considered a refined and sophisticated feature associated with people of knowledge and practical understanding...which typically still allows a skilled operative to elect a Single Action mode, when desired.

Minute decreases in mechanical drag associated with DOA only Revolver mechanisms, where no Single Action mode is anylonger possible regardless of Hammer shape, I suppose offer just that - a minute but maybe meaningful to the user, decrease in drag.


Thats about all I can think of..!

easyg
June 14, 2010, 09:16 AM
The only advantage I can see that a DAO revolver offers is ease of draw from a pocket, if the weapon has a concealed hammer.

Autoloaders are different....
Some DAO autos have a trigger-pull that is not much different than the trigger-pull of some pistols shooting single-action.
My G27's trigger-pull is actually lighter and shorter than the single-action trigger-pull of my Ruger P95.

Guillermo
June 14, 2010, 10:42 AM
DAO in a pocket gun is certainly an advantage as it makes a bobbed revolver safe.

In a full size revolver it is just for minimizing liability. If you like full size DAO revolvers you can thank the lawyers. My opinion differs and makes me thing of a quote by a great philosopher.

"Lawyers are like flesh eating bacteria feeding on the tissue of our society, leaving it rotting, putrid and necrotic."

And seeing all of the extraneous "safety" devices, warning labels and "storage" locks it is hard to disagree with that quote.

MrBorland
June 14, 2010, 11:06 AM
Most here seem to be thinking of DAO only in the context of a defense gun, whereas the OP didn't limit their question to that scope.

More broadly, then, for applications where SA capability isn't an issue, say for IDPA/ICORE/USPSA, there are some very real advantages. Read my earlier post, and you might see that a tuned DAO can be a very nice improvement indeed. Lawyers, snagging and 100 yard snubbie headshot scenarios be damned.

Guillermo
June 14, 2010, 11:19 AM
Most here seem to be thinking of DAO only in the context of a defense gun, whereas the OP didn't limit their question to that scope.

I plead guilty :(

SlamFire1
June 14, 2010, 11:31 AM
This is the only DAO revolver I own. No hammer spur to get stuck on clothing. Since handguns are spitting distance tools, and this is a kicking distance tool, not having a single action pull is not a problem.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Smith%20and%20Wesson%20Pistols/M624CentennialAirweight.jpg

I enjoy plinking at the range; I shoot most of my rounds single action. So for best accuracy I want the single action pull of a revolver.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Smith%20and%20Wesson%20Pistols/ReducedM24rightsideDSCN5073.jpg

As much as I like playing with M1911's at the range, I think cocked and locked single action autos are accidents waiting to happen.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Pistols%20various/DSCN0747ColtCombatreduced.jpg

Not so with single action revolvers with transfer bars. You have to manually haul against a 13 pound hammer spring to cock the thing.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Pistols%20various/RugerThreeScrewSerialnumbererasedDS.jpg

Guillermo
June 14, 2010, 11:41 AM
I think cocked and locked single action autos are accidents waiting to happen.

I am making popcorn and pouring a beer...even on the revolver board this should be fun :)

Old Fuff
June 14, 2010, 11:57 AM
Since handguns are spitting distance tools, and this is a kicking distance tool, not having a single action pull is not a problem.

My old Detective Special will be surprised to learn this, because it often kept it's shots well inside the K-zone of a B-27 silhouette target at 50 yards, shooting double-action of course.

Back during the late 1880's The U.S. Army held trials to find a new Cavalry sidearm to replace the Colt 1873 SAA. Among the candidates was a 6" barreled version of Smith & Wesson's .38 Safety Hammerless model. Tests were not conducted at "spitting distances," and the revolver did fine, but failed a rust test that did in some small internal parts.

During the 1930's and 40's many bullseye competitors would shoot revolvers in the double-action mode at 25 yards during timed and rapid fire matches. Sometimes they won...

The Practical Pistol Match, popular with law enforcement officers when revolvers were a mainstay, often shot the course exclusively in double-action, at distances from 7 to 50 yards.

The Old Fuff must sadly observe that they don't make the kind of shooters they used too... :neener: :D

9mmepiphany
June 14, 2010, 12:23 PM
If you like full size DAO revolvers you can thank the lawyers.

i usually thank my gunsmith for the action tune when he did the work and i thank the top flight shooters for showing me that a DA shot at the 50 yard line was just as accurate, and usually more easily consistent (for grouping), than a string of shots fired in SA

PzGren
June 14, 2010, 12:50 PM
No.

Even though I shoot my revolvers almost exclusively in D/A, all that DAO does is excluding a function.

Guillermo
June 14, 2010, 01:20 PM
all that DAO does is excluding a function

well said

I have revolvers that I might not ever have shot in single action but there is no reason for me to make it "go away"

Geezer Glide
June 14, 2010, 01:41 PM
In a defensive situation, DA will be how the revolver is used. If your revolver is DAO, you are forced to practice in exactly the same way as it will be used if needed.

saltydog452
June 14, 2010, 02:10 PM
Options are a good thing.

A little help in indexing the cylinder has been appreciated. Sticky Lube and summertime heat didn't help. BE was nasty and 2400 left un-burned residue. All contributed to gum up the works on occasion.

salty

camsdaddy
June 14, 2010, 04:59 PM
The only advantage I can think of that a model 642/442 would have over my M38 it the wider front blade. Also I think it has a better DAO trigger than my M38. I know blashpemy.

Oyeboten
June 14, 2010, 05:34 PM
There seems to be some confusion now and then in which it is presumed that a Bobbed Hammer means 'DAO'.


It does not.

A Bobbed Hammer is a 'Bobbed Hammer'...and, unless the Revolver's mechanism has been modified to no longer be capable of being Cocked, one simply cocks the Bobbed Hammer if wishing to indulge in a Single Action mode of fire.

Often, a Bobbed Hammer would be supplied with some serrations or Checkering to make the operation of Cocking a little easier or more sure.

One simply pulls the Trigger far enough for the Hammer to come back a little, then gets one's Thumb onto the top of the Hammer, releasing the pressure on the Trigger, and, Cocks the Hammer then, at that point, in a normal way.

I have only very rarely fired any Double Action Revolvers in a Single Action mode in any Target Shooting context or any context at all...prefering to fire them Double Action regardless of distance.

None the less, I like the Idea that if I did wish to fire in Single Action, I could.

ArmedBear
June 14, 2010, 05:55 PM
True DAO guns (LCR, Centennial) can be better for pocket carry because they don't snag and they don't collect lint or other crud in the back.

If you want a toy, there's no advantage. A little DAO is a defensive tool for relatively short range use -- although it's not a "belly gun." Someone who can shoot worth a hill of beans can use it out to any range appropriate for a snubbie.

SlamFire1
June 14, 2010, 06:03 PM
The Old Fuff must sadly observe that they don't make the kind of shooters they used too...

Well back in the past, the courses of fire reflected the thinking of the day. In the 1880's the Cavalry was still armed with the saber. That is a M1885 on top, the bottom sword is a 1905 NCO pattern.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/M1905%20Staff%20Sergant%20Sword/ReducedM1905withM1885aboveDSCN5737.jpg

The thinking of the day was that the Bullseye Course was good training for combat shooting.

Today it is understood that bullseye shooting is a fun sport.

And no one thinks of swords as primary weapons.

My old Detective Special will be surprised to learn this, because it often kept it's shots well inside the K-zone of a B-27 silhouette target at 50 yards, shooting double-action of course.

Lets see, what am I going to be shooting at, at fifty yards, with a handgun?

If it is a guy with a rifle, I would be better off finding cover and not attracting attention.

If it is another guy with a handgun, well, I would still be better off finding cover, as a random shot might hit me.

Now, if I had a rifle with me, any handgun shooter I encounter is in trouble.

Shot this Saturday, 100 yards prone smallbore competition. Best X count to date with this rifle. And it was hot, like 90ís hot.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Targets/AnschutzM54100-9x.jpg

Old Fuff
June 14, 2010, 07:39 PM
I take it that you always go around carrying a heavy .22 target rifle? :confused: :D

The issue in question was that double-action shooting, especially with a snubby, was only practical when the subject of one's attention was close enough so you could smell his bad breath. This is far from the truth so far as the revolver's capability is concerned. I provided some illustrations.

At longer distances I would also withdraw if I could, but it not I could keep an attacker from safely coming closer. While there are better weapons for this purpose (and a .22 target rifle isn't one of them) sometimes one must make do with what they have. :scrutiny: ;)

Old Fuff
June 14, 2010, 07:48 PM
Oyeboten:

I strongly advise that anyone who bobs a hammer also have the revolver converted to double-action only. While one can cock the hammer in the manner you described, the greater danger comes when one doesn't fire, and tries to lower the hammer against a loaded chamber.

On two occasions I have had revolvers brought to me to have them rendered DAO after someone did something that they didn't intend to. I know of other cases as well.

Guillermo
June 14, 2010, 09:12 PM
If your revolver is DAO, you are forced to practice in exactly the same way as it will be used if needed.

some of us are disciplined enough to practice DA without giving up a useful feature



I strongly advise that anyone who bobs a hammer also have the revolver converted to double-action only

AMEN BROTHER FUFF!!!

Oyeboten
June 15, 2010, 01:38 AM
Hi Old Fuff,


You mention -


I strongly advise that anyone who bobs a hammer also have the revolver converted to double-action only. While one can cock the hammer in the manner you described, the greater danger comes when one doesn't fire, and tries to lower the hammer against a loaded chamber.

On two occasions I have had revolvers brought to me to have them rendered DAO after someone did something that they didn't intend to. I know of other cases as well.


Well...possibly, practicing the operation of de-cocking with the Revolver empty, would help those who may be unfamiliar or confused.

I never did find it to present a difficulty which recommended practice to feel sure with.


It is a basic Motor-Cordination application -

For anyone not familiar - if a completely Bobbed Hammer Revolver is cocked, and, one decides to de-cock it, one merely pulls back on the Hammer a tiny but with the holding Hand's ( sorry, my mental image of holding a Hand Gun always was and remains, with it being in one Hand) Thumb...

The Holding Hand's Thumb pulls back the Hammer a tiny bit, and, with the Hammer being held that way, the holding Hand's Index Finger pulls back on the Trigger, releasing the Sear, releasing the Hammer in effect, for the Thumb then to allow the Hammer to move forward maybe 1/3rd or 1/2 of the way, where, the Trigger Finger then releases the Trigger and moves free of the Trigger Bow, allowing the rebound or other mechanism if present, or allowing the Hammer regardless, to be gently let down the rest of the way by the Thumb...where, typically, the Hammer stops short of the Firing Pin reaching the Cartridge Primer, and, all is well.


Just about anyone could master this right away, or, with a little practice if need be.


My daily Carry, while having a completely Bobbed Hammer, does not have any Checkering on the Hammer top, and, I just tried it now a couple times, unloaded, to see how slippery the Hammer top would be, and, it seemed alright and was easy to do the operation surely...even though it is slick polished Steel there on top.

In my opinion, Checkering or sharp perpendicular Serrations, is the ideal for a Bobber Hammer top to have, if the Single Action function is to be kept as an option in an otherwise Double Action Revolver, for allowing one's Thumb to have a nicer purchase on it for Cocking or de-Cocking, especially if sweaty, greasy from working on the Car, or whatever.

I just have not checkered the Hammer Top yet.

Obviously, any decocking of a loaded Revolver, regardless of whether it posesses a Hammer Spurr or not, should be done with the Revolver pointed to a safe direction, such as the Earth or as may be...and the procedure undertaken with care and deliberate attention and presence of mind.


I think always, with any Arm, one does well to understand and learn it's functions and features, and if need be, to practice their operation untill satisfied they are easy and familiar.

If a feature or function does not please, or seems 'iffy', then elect a different Arm or as Old Fuff reminds, have an able Smith see to it that the offending feature or function is removed or modified when possible, so one is comfortable and easy with the Arm in all it's features and functions.

W.E.G.
June 15, 2010, 01:43 AM
By the time I go to the trouble to manually cock a bobbed revolver hammer, the chances that I will need to de-cock it are virtually zero.

In the unlikely event that I should ever need to de-cock such a hammer, I should hope I have enough dexterity and mental capacity to accomplish the task without having a ND, or having to consult the internet for instructions.

mljdeckard
June 15, 2010, 01:49 AM
In a word, yes, I agree that a consistent trigger is easier to learn and fall back on under stress. I believe that in shooting defensively it's a bad idea to cock the hammer.

Having said that, if I had a defensive revolver, (I don't right now,) I don't think I would go so far as to remove the cocking notch and/or bob the hammer. Besides shooting it for fun with the SA pull, I also believe that it's a bad idea to limit your options.

Old Fuff
June 15, 2010, 11:17 AM
The Holding Hand's Thumb pulls back the Hammer a tiny bit, and, with the Hammer being held that way, the holding Hand's Index Finger pulls back on the Trigger, releasing the Sear, releasing the Hammer in effect, for the Thumb then to allow the Hammer to move forward maybe 1/3rd or 1/2 of the way, where, the Trigger Finger then releases the Trigger and moves free of the Trigger Bow, allowing the rebound or other mechanism if present, or allowing the Hammer regardless, to be gently let down the rest of the way by the Thumb...where, typically, the Hammer stops short of the Firing Pin reaching the Cartridge Primer, and, all is well.

If all goes well, then all goes well. But while you are lowering the hammer 1/3rd or 1/2 of the way, the trigger is being held fully rearward by the trigger finger, and so long as the trigger is in that position the internal safety devices, regardless of what design, are in the "off" position. So you are lowering the hammer under circumstances where if the thumb loses control of the hammer, it will fall and the trigger can't catch up with it, even if it is released.

When you have a conventional hammer spur you have greater leverage and surface for the thumb to rest on then you do while pressing on the top of the bobbed hammer. Also that surface on the spur is usually deeply checkered or serrated.

Unless they happen to be around me at the time :eek:, I don't care if someone else decides to lower a cocked/bobbed hammer. But if something goes wrong during the critical 1/3rd to 1/2 rotational travel of the hammer, they, not I, will be fully responsible for the consequences. In one of the instances I mentioned before a young police officer that thought he had the decocking drill down pat, had to explain to his Chief why the department's car had an extra hole in it that the manufacturer didn't put there. As I learned later, while changing the revolver to DAO, the interview was much less then pleasant. Considering what could have happened I think he got off easy.

logical
June 15, 2010, 11:59 AM
Whether it is an advantage depends on many factors that are different for each of us. For me, all my CCW autos and revolvers are "DAO" and thats always been my preferance.

earlthegoat2
June 15, 2010, 12:05 PM
Regardless of how well someone can shoot DAO or SA/DA or SAO I like to think of the DAO trend of today to be brought on by the litigious natrure of our police departments and their training budgets. It is really easy to teach someone how to pull the same trigger everytime and not have to go into the intricacies of SA/DA or SAO with safety levers. As well as, if the trigger is harder (or longer in the case of Glocks since their triggers are still pretty light) to pull then I guess it is harder to accidentally pull (whatever that means) and, once again, "I guess" can hold up in court that a particular department did everything in their power with the hardware chosen to prevent accidental discharges or some blah and blah.

Rexster
June 15, 2010, 04:09 PM
When decocking a revolver, rather than use just the thumb, better to pinch the tips of the support hand's index finger and thumb together, in front of the hammer nose, when decocking. This totally captures the hammer, so it is less likely to get away, until the trigger has been released. Of course, some sixguns have sharp edges there, so this may not be the most comfortable way, but it is much more sure than using just the thumb on top of a bobbed, semibobbed, or small-spurred hammer. It may also be problematic with very small weapons, especially if the user has thick thumbs and fingers.

I have practiced this, dry, with my spurless SP101 and Speed Six, and also with a bobbed-hammer S&W N-frame I used to use as a duty sixgun. I don't recall ever feeling the need to cock these weapons while they were loaded.

230therapy
June 15, 2010, 05:11 PM
Yes, very much so.

Double action is faster in revolvers. Source: Ed McGivern's Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting

In semi-autos, it's all about deploying the gun under pressure. By "pressure", I mean under a violent confrontation with possible contact between the participants.

Everyone says they can work the safeties on their guns, but then proceed to flub it in force on force. I've seen it happen in Tueller drills too...it's more common that one would think. If you were ahead of the reaction curve, the flubbing just cost you that difference in time. In those instants, the bad guy can catch up and start putting rounds on target. Put bullets into the bad guy first! This is what double action is for.

If double action is for "safety", then the wrong people are in charge. Triggers are used to ignite primers; they are not "vertical safety levers".

tipoc
June 15, 2010, 05:40 PM
I think folks have attempted to explain some of the benefits and drawbacks of each. From there it is a matter of preference and experience.

tipoc

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