Scotland Yard Moves to Baby Glocks to Get Women


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smhbbag1
June 15, 2010, 05:04 AM
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article7149078.ece

MEMBERS of Scotland Yard’s elite bodyguard unit are being armed with smaller, lighter “baby” guns as part of a drive to attract more female officers.

The move is aimed at recruiting bodyguards with smaller hands. However, critics fear that it could hamper close protection officers who guard the Queen, David Cameron and other VIPs if they have to fend off an attack from terrorists or a lone gunman.

“It’s a disadvantage because the smaller guns have less firepower and are less accurate,” said a police firearms expert.

Supporters deny the Yard is putting political correctness before security. They say the change is part of a legitimate attempt by Metropolitan police bosses better to reflect the community.

Others believe the move underlines the explosion of a “diversity agenda” that began in the 1990s and was led by a new breed of chiefs who thought traditional policing was too male-orientated.

The trend to recruit more women was reinforced last week when David Cameron, the prime minister, was seen jogging with a female protection officer.

Historically, the standard-issue weapon of the Met’s specialist and royalty protection units is the Glock 17, a semiautomatic pistol fed by 17 rounds of ammunition.

The self-loading gun has a magazine that is “double stacked” in a zigzag formation and so requires a wide butt. The replacement weapon for women officers and those with smaller hands is believed to be the “subcompact” version, the Glock 26.

Marketed by its Austrian manufacturer as the “Baby Glock”, the gun has a single magazine with just 10 bullets and therefore requires a smaller butt.

The Glock 26’s barrel is just under 3.5in long, more than an inch shorter than the Glock 17. This makes it a less accurate weapon, particularly at longer range. In a firefight, officers using the “Baby Glock” would have to stop shooting and reload their weapon more frequently that those with the bigger handgun.

Details of the introduction of a smaller gun were disclosed by John Bunn, a senior detective in the Yard’s counter-terrorism command, to the Metropolitan Police Authority, the force’s watchdog.

Noting “considerable improvements” in the work of SO1, the specialist protection unit, Bunn wrote in a report: “A diversity forum and work strands following best Metropolitan police service practice have been established, for example changing the type of firearm used to accommodate smaller hands, changes in recruit[ment] advertising, female-only insight days and mentoring under-represented groups expressing an interest in SO1.”

Professor Peter Waddington, an expert in police firearms tactics, said the new weapons delivered less firepower but denied it was likely to be driven by political correctness.

“People with smaller hands find it difficult to grasp the butt of a regular-size self-loading pistol,” he said. “The double-stacked magazine is broader, and ... women find this more than a handful. They cannot grip the weapon properly and therefore fix their aim. So they can’t shoot ... like a big man is able to.”

Patrick Mercer, former chairman of the Commons sub-committee on counterterrorism, said: “I hope the judgment has been made on effectiveness and not on some contorted view of equality.”

Scotland Yard said it never discussed details of weapons used by its officers, but stated: “We are committed to recruiting a workforce that reflects the community we serve, and this includes specialist areas such as protection.”

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thegeneric
June 15, 2010, 05:22 AM
"The self-loading gun has a magazine that is “double stacked” in a zigzag formation and so requires a wide butt. The replacement weapon for women officers and those with smaller hands is believed to be the “subcompact” version, the Glock 26.

Marketed by its Austrian manufacturer as the “Baby Glock”, the gun has a single magazine with just 10 bullets and therefore requires a smaller butt."

I don't think they know what they're talking about....

throdgrain
June 15, 2010, 05:32 AM
I dont think they're alone do you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rEuTwYALho&feature=player_embedded

T2K
June 15, 2010, 05:34 AM
Um, so give the females (or guys with small hands) the Glock 26? Why does the whole department have to change?

Cromlech
June 15, 2010, 07:55 AM
Hell, don't we still have a load of Browning Hi-Powers lying around, surely? Those have a lovely grip (slimmer than a Glock at least) and still carry 13+1.
Unless they don't want anything to do with a SA pistol. :(

Siggie
June 15, 2010, 07:55 AM
Um, so give the females (or guys with small hands) the Glock 26? Why does the whole department have to change?
Looking at uniformity and parts exchange, this would be a not so good idea. Picture a female and a male officer caught in a gunfight and either one of them is out of bullets.. It would be interesting to see how they would solve the "throw me a spare clip" request ;) .
Whilst in the process of changing the "service pistol" for the police in the Netherlands, an adjustable grip is on the requirements list for exactly the same reason. For example, a Beretta Storm has one, as well as some others. This would be a more suitable choice. Same power, same weapon, same clips. But adjustable ergonomics :-)

mustang_steve
June 15, 2010, 08:54 AM
Just go with 9mm 1911 type pistols....Glock grips are fat as all let out.

If my huge hands think it's ideal, it's not going to fit the average woman's hand.

hso
June 15, 2010, 09:05 AM
Stupid, just stupid.

Plenty of women carry double stack pistols. Plenty of female officers in the U.S. use the standard service weapon issued by their departments.

Chemist
June 15, 2010, 09:08 AM
Can't you have the grip reduced by a gunsmith? Nothing like the government to jump on the wrong solution.

Sebastian the Ibis
June 15, 2010, 09:24 AM
Nothing like the government to jump on the wrong solution.

+1

Can't you have the grip reduced by a gunsmith?

Probably not over there. Where in England are they going to find a gunsmith familiar with glocks? let alone one that has cut one down? It's not like America where everyone and their brother has a glock, and there are the gunsmiths to service them. I'll bet that the powers that be are not even aware that this is an option.

This is an excellent example of pervasive gun control degrading national security.

springfield30-06
June 15, 2010, 09:33 AM
I've never really looked at Glocks very closely, but aren't the 17 & 26 the same grip width? I know they're not as long, but can't a G26 accept a G17 magazine (though it will protrude below the grip)?

Ragnar Danneskjold
June 15, 2010, 09:57 AM
Yep. G26s can accept 17 and 19 magazines, and the 19 can accept the 17 mags. The grip size is the same for all of them except for length.

springfield30-06
June 15, 2010, 10:17 AM
I've never really looked at Glocks very closely, but aren't the 17 & 26 the same grip width? I know they're not as long, but can't a G26 accept a G17 magazine (though it will protrude below the grip)?

Yep. G26s can accept 17 and 19 magazines, and the 19 can accept the 17 mags. The grip size is the same for all of them except for length.

That's what I thought.... this makes absolutely no sense then. If they are changing because of people with smaller hands, how does the grip length have anything to do with it? I would think that the grip width is what the issue would be there.

Smokey Joe
June 15, 2010, 11:13 AM
They cannot grip the weapon properly and therefore fix their aim. So they can’t shoot ... like a big man is able to.” If I felt the need of a bodyguard, I'd want the biggest, burliest, most intimidating-looking person who could qualify. Isn't the idea of a bodyguard, someone who is supposed to GUARD your BODY???

That's not sexism, it's hiring the best-suited person for the job. If a 6'5", 250-pound weightlifter who can run fast, shoot well, and think on their feet, happens along, and she is a woman, so be it.

boatme99
June 15, 2010, 11:37 AM
Marketed by its Austrian manufacturer as the “Baby Glock”, the gun has a single magazine with just 10 bullets and therefore requires a smaller butt.

The guns or the cops?

Maelstrom
June 15, 2010, 12:33 PM
They say the change is part of a legitimate attempt by Metropolitan police bosses better to reflect the community.

But what if the "community" is a bunch of soft, weak, pansies? Why would you want your bodyguards to reflect that? I always thought your security team should be better than their surroundings, not on par with them.

earlthegoat2
June 15, 2010, 12:44 PM
Why not issue their females a different gun instead of change all around?

lions
June 15, 2010, 12:45 PM
They have changed to a gun that does nothing to address how a female officer's hand fits the gun but does just about everything to make it less shootable. Really, Scotland Yard... really?

SaMx
June 15, 2010, 12:47 PM
So basically, instead of giving people with smaller hands a gun with a smaller grip circumference, they're giving them one with a shorter grip and a shorter barrel and sight radius. This way new shooters who have difficulty with the regular pistols get a gun that's even harder to shoot well.

Good job Scotland Yard. Good Job

NMGonzo
June 15, 2010, 12:54 PM
If I felt the need of a bodyguard, I'd want the biggest, burliest, most intimidating-looking person who could qualify. Isn't the idea of a bodyguard, someone who is supposed to GUARD your BODY???

That's not sexism, it's hiring the best-suited person for the job. If a 6'5", 250-pound weightlifter who can run fast, shoot well, and think on their feet, happens along, and she is a woman, so be it.

Bingo.

When I see a bodyguard I want it to be intimidating.

There are plenty of large people in the Isles that will do well among both genders.

Bodyguards ideally should be rather wide so they can COVER a person against physical danger, and also skilled in subduing an attacker FAST!

JellyJar
June 15, 2010, 02:01 PM
The "firearms expert" mentioned in the article is no expert. The grip of the Glock 26 and 17 are the same thickness. The main advantage of the 26 over the 17 would be its concealability. If a woman cannot grasp the grip of a Glock 17 well enough then she won't be able to grasp the grip of a 26 well enough either. :)

Also, here we have another example of the myth that short barrel handguns are "inherently" less accurate than their longer barrel brethren. That is 98 and 44/100 percent not true. As long as a barrel is long enough to impart enough spin to a bullet to stabilize it that handgun will be as accurate as a longer barrel handgun. However, a longer barrel handgun is easier to "shoot" accurately than the shorter barrel version.

Cosmoline
June 15, 2010, 02:06 PM
If Plan A is to fight off well armed terrorists with handguns of ANY type, they need a Plan B.

But if the issue is simply hand size, they need to go with a single stack not a stubbier Glock. The Sig P225 for example is perfect for small hands

mbt2001
June 15, 2010, 02:17 PM
This article shows that sexism and stereotyping are ALIVE and WELL in Europe, despite their enlightened and progressive approach to life.

"We need to attract more women... I know, we will use smaller guns. The little ladies won't be as afraid of smaller guns and will of course come flocking to fill out applications. Lord knows, THAT is what is keeping them away, the large guns.... It isn't the hostile work environment, the pay, the benefits, the dangers, the lack of interest... NO, we must use "small" guns and do no research on ergonomics and shoot ability. We cannot, nay, WILL NOT call the FBI and ask what they do to recruit, train, retain women agents. America knows NOTHING."

Leanwolf
June 15, 2010, 03:02 PM
THE ARTICLE - " “It’s a disadvantage because the smaller guns have less firepower and are less accurate,” said a police firearms expert."


Isn't British police "firearms expert" an oxymoron???? :rolleyes:

L.W.

LRS_Ranger
June 15, 2010, 03:16 PM
Maybe they should offer 2 options, or switch to another type that doesn't have the fat grips.. I don't really like glock grips either. But that might give too much freedom I suppose..

mbt2001
June 15, 2010, 03:20 PM
Let the ladies carry 3913's or Sig 239's and solve the grip crisis by going to a single stack.

svtruth
June 15, 2010, 03:43 PM
but, my Para 1911 in .45 is not thicker throught the butt than my NORINCO full size.
What do the female IDF members carry?
Wouldn't that work?
Or, something like a broomhandle Mauser with a magazine independent of the butt?

MK11
June 15, 2010, 03:50 PM
From the article: "The replacement weapon for women officers and those with smaller hands is believed to be the “subcompact” version, the Glock 26."

So it's simply an option for those members who can't handle the G17, much like hundreds of police departments in the U.S. already offer. Good move.

But people like to complain for the sake of complaining. If Scotland Yard refused to offer an option to the G17, people would complain about that too.

Mk VII
June 16, 2010, 09:40 AM
If I felt the need of a bodyguard, I'd want the biggest, burliest, most intimidating-looking person who could qualify. Isn't the idea of a bodyguard, someone who is supposed to GUARD your BODY???

That'll be the one who's clearly identifiable and gets taken down first, then. As opposed to the one who looks like a secretary, and who can follow their principal into the ladies' john, if necessary.

razorback2003
June 16, 2010, 11:36 AM
A Glock 26 is just as fat in the grip as a Glock 17. The Glock 26 is probably harder for a 'non shooter' to learn to shoot (I am assuming these folks the UK police hire have never fired a gun) than the Glock 17 because of the shorter grip and barrel.

They could use something thinner in the grip that is full sized like a Browning Hi Power or a 1911. Those are two excellant choices.

throdgrain
June 16, 2010, 12:00 PM
You're assuming 100% wrong there, it's exactly the opposite, non-shooters remain non-shooters as far as I can see.

230therapy
June 16, 2010, 12:35 PM
Who cares what the British are doing? These are the ENFORCERS of a very tyrannical government.

I ***HOPE*** they don't know what they're doing. The more ineffective they are, the better off the British subjects will be.

mbt2001
June 17, 2010, 11:16 AM
If I felt the need of a bodyguard, I'd want the biggest, burliest, most intimidating-looking person who could qualify. Isn't the idea of a bodyguard, someone who is supposed to GUARD your BODY???
That'll be the one who's clearly identifiable and gets taken down first, then. As opposed to the one who looks like a secretary, and who can follow their principal into the ladies' john, if necessary.

Well, it depends on your value as a target. The President and other heads of state / key people in government have both OVERT and COVERT protection. A lot of time you see the "pop stars" with big biker looking guys and the media moguls with guys in an entourage. As the value of the target goes up, so does the way in which protection is run for them.

sterling180
June 17, 2010, 01:31 PM
Probably not over there. Where in England are they going to find a gunsmith familiar with glocks? let alone one that has cut one down? It's not like America where everyone and their brother has a glock, and there are the gunsmiths to service them. I'll bet that the powers that be are not even aware that this is an option. This is an excellent example of pervasive gun control degrading national security.[/QUOTE]

You are very much mistaken my friend,as there are many gunsmiths,whom are very capable of servicing&repairing handguns,especially with the links between police force armourers,armed forces armourers&their civillian counterparts.Many top gunsmiths were ex-police&military,like our very own Peter Moore,Laurie Holland&Harry Dolazell.
There is a firearms importer,in Cornwall,whom supplies any police or government agencies,with Glock pistols&whom used to supply the civillian market with them,before they were banned in 1997,with exception of Northern Ireland.If a distribution dealer,such as Edgar Brothers Ltd,has a Section 5 license(Allowed to possess prohibited weapons:-)then they can import them.Any section 5 dealer can import any weapon,but they are limited on whom they supply these guns to.Edgar Brothers Ltd is the UKs importer,for Remington firearms,Sportsmans Centre is for Steyr-Mannlichers&so on.
I saw a nice Glock on a UK dealers website,but it was only labelled for exportion overseas or to Northern Ireland.

BlisteringSilence
June 17, 2010, 02:03 PM
If I felt the need of a bodyguard, I'd want the biggest, burliest, most intimidating-looking person who could qualify. Isn't the idea of a bodyguard, someone who is supposed to GUARD your BODY???

That's not sexism, it's hiring the best-suited person for the job. If a 6'5", 250-pound weightlifter who can run fast, shoot well, and think on their feet, happens along, and she is a woman, so be it.

Sometimes you want the 400 pound gorilla, and sometimes you want to me a little more covert with your protections.

Not to get into too many not-so-secret secrets, but you rarely want your advance team to be overt. Their whole purpose is to evaluate a location for potential dangers, and it's much easier for a nondescript person to do so than a former rugby star that screams "COP!"

A principle's body man (or men) often fit the stereotype of large and intimidating. It's the rest of the detail that doesn't want to be seen, noticed, or acknowledged. Especially in Europe, where the tradition of a 10 car motorcade for dignitaries is the exception to the rule.

sterling180
June 17, 2010, 03:45 PM
QUOTE]A Glock 26 is just as fat in the grip as a Glock 17. The Glock 26 is probably harder for a 'non shooter' to learn to shoot (I am assuming these folks the UK police hire have never fired a gun) than the Glock 17 because of the shorter grip and barrel.[/QUOTE]

Most trainee Level 3(Handguns only..I think:-)Authorised Firearms Officers aren't that familiar with handguns,unless they were ex-armed-forces,MOD Police&Civil nuclear constabulary-whereby they might of been trained in the handling of the Sig Saur P226&Hi-Power.Due to the handgun ban,they can't try out a private pistol on a range,to get even more gun handling,in their own time.Political selfishness from stupid polititions,whom deny themselves,to the freedom of owning a cartridge-firing ahndgun.

BlisteringSilence
June 17, 2010, 03:54 PM
You know, I could be wrong about this, but I thought that this was the issue that Sig addressed with the P250. One platform that's available in fullsize, compact, and subcompact, with 3 different backstraps for each grip.

I know that's why my Sheriff's office looked at moving to that platform. Common internals, but size the gun to the fit and function of the officer.

Oyeboten
June 17, 2010, 04:20 PM
There seems to be a lot of confusion over there.

I think they want women with big butts, and small hands, and are then having trouble justifying it.

There is a lot of power in those Hips, if they know how to use them.

One good bump, and they could send anyone tumbling sideways...good for crowd controll, good for blocking, form a circle around a VIP like Musk Oxen do, only rumps facing outward, nothing could get through, etc.

Strategic levels and tiers of security require specialization among the ranks.

Bennyb747
June 19, 2010, 08:56 AM
I like how they say the subcompacts are not accurate, that is a load of BS...

This guy is plinking with crappy ammo at 230 yards with a G27 and actually landing hits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmMEg4y54Dk

mustang_steve
June 19, 2010, 12:29 PM
Thing is, it's harder to aim with subcompact since the front sights are closer.

So a shooter will need a greater degree of skill to get a subcompact to be accurate compared to a fullsize pistol.

I think most of us alreday know this though, and like to pick on the technically incorrect wording :p

Rexster
June 19, 2010, 01:51 PM
Well, let's look at women's hands a moment. All else being equal, women's ring and pinkie fingers are proportionately shorter than men's hands. Look sometime, and see how a woman's ring finger tends to be shorter than her index finger.

FWIW, though not female, my pinky fingers are proportonately quite short, and my hands are of medium size, with fairly thin fingers. (OK, so I have girlie hands.) This is in spite of my 6' height and long arms. (35"-36" shirt sleeve length) With my G22 duty pistols, my pinkie finger was just a decoration, contributing nothing to my hold. On my G27 BUG, however, my pinky could grip the magazine floorplate, enabling me to actually have a better grip on a G27 than a G22. So, there is at least one valid reason that the subcompact Glock is going to be a better gun for many women.

Not saying the post-Empire Brits are the most firearms-knowlegeable folks anymore, but this is one thing they might have gotten right. (The G22 and P229 being two of the four authorized primary duty pistol choices for me at the time; the list has grown a bit since then. Yes, I buy my own duty firearms.)

FWIW, I only used the Glocks for a couple of years, as I found the SIG P229, with a short trigger, or custom trigger, was a better fit for me. The G22 and P229 were two of the four authorized primary duty pistol choices I had at the time; yes, I must buy my own duty weapons, and like that policy just fne.

DT Guy
June 20, 2010, 02:49 AM
Any Glock is not a 'small handed' weapon. (I've got smallish hands, dammit.)

A Kahr or PPS would help, but even the 'baby' Glocks suffer a long trigger reach and wide grip.

Of course, expecting the British government to know about guns is like expecting Britney Spears to know about dignity and self-respect; I picture the procurement officer who had to select these weapons holding them between thumb and forefinger and openly weeping.


Larry

TexasBill
June 20, 2010, 04:44 AM
I picture the procurement officer who had to select these weapons holding them between thumb and forefinger and openly weeping.

Could you blame him? The only choices are Glocks. That would make me cry, too!:barf:

Oyeboten
June 20, 2010, 05:37 AM
They should just import a bunch of those communist red chinese 'Tokarev' copies...and they could go 'Stamp Crazy' Hammering Crossed Swords, Nitro Proof Marks, "NOT BRITISH MAKE" and other stuff all over the things...painting them 'black', and so on. You know, really making them their own.

The price is a whole buncha right, and, Tokarev design is a good fit for smaller hands, probably mostly Pakistani and North African Women anyway, and, those small fast Bullets are supposed to be just dandy for colder climes where BGs wear many layers of clothing...easy recoil...easy upkeep, durable raliable design, on and on.

All the dough they'd save, they could apply to Shooting Instructionals and 'how to' field strip, clean, Oil, shooting old Shillings tossed in the Air, 'Quick Draw', and so on.


Seems like a 'win win' to me.


But...they are probably much too proud to be so sensible...

Quiet
June 20, 2010, 07:35 AM
UK police women patrol gear. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1015585/The-paramilitary-face-policewoman-armed-revolver-taser-flak-jacket-pieces-equipment.html)
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/04/17/article-1015585-00F24C9600000578-30_468x538.jpg

What's wrong with the MP5s they normally carry? :confused:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/87/215450343_b9800079d3.jpg
http://www.digitaljournal.com/img/1/7/8/7/2/i/4/7/5/o/Police_armed_uk.jpg

throdgrain
June 20, 2010, 09:42 AM
Normally is probably a bit of an exageration :)

Coppers on the beat dont carry any sort of guns at all, same for the (far more numerous) old bill in cars, only designated vehicles carry guns normally, hence the problem when they found that shooter the other week.

For ViP stuff and and security at airports and suchlike is where you'll see the MP5 carrying folk like the ones in the pictures.

Rexster
June 20, 2010, 10:07 AM
To drift off-topic a bit, I do like the handcuff holder! I bought a pair of those handcuffs at GT Distributors, but they did not offer that holder, that holds the cuffs in the extended position. Those handcuffs are marketed, at least in the USA, as the Hiatt Ultimate Handcuffs, and are hinged in the center, but the hinge joint locks in the extended (unfolded) position.

Actually, I don't have enough real estate left on my duty belt for such a 'cuff holder; I would need to find a way to piggyback it onto something else. Right now, I use them as spare 'cuffs, that I put into a back pocket upon exiting the car, if the need is anticipated.

Back on topic: My PD* authorizes certain .40 double-stack autopistols, which we must purchase ourselves. The most popular choice among the female cadets, and the senior female officer who chose to switch, for quite a while was the G22. While Glocks are not the smallest pistols, they are forgiving of the so-called "H" grip, which is what small-handed folks must do when shooting large double-stack pistols.

Then, however, the new S&W M&P40 was authorized, and it became the hands-down choice for female cadets and officers, and quite a few males, too. It would be interesting to see if S&W could make inroads into the UK and Continental European police pistol market.

*Sorry, I can't specify, due to a prohibition on discussing PD policy publicly. It is a big-city PD in the southern USA.

Oyeboten
June 20, 2010, 06:40 PM
They have lost all dignity...

Yuck...

Bobbies used to know Ju-Jit-Su, and had great people-skills...dressed very respectably, everything Spit-&-Polish...Melton Cloth and Twill...

Appartment building 'Supers' have more dignity than these mooks, even with all the junk dangling off their Work Belts and so on.

Depressing...

Madcap_Magician
June 21, 2010, 10:29 AM
I've been mulling this since I first read it, and it seems to me that the UK is going to run into the same issue that the LAPD ran into back when they decided that they wanted X% (I think it was 40%?) of their officers to be female. They did their darndest to attract more women... only to run into a wall because... not as many women wanted to be police officers as they wanted on their force.

Given that firearms units in the UK are a pretty small percent of all officers, I can't imagine that going from the easy-to-shoot Glock 17 to the slight-less-easy-to-shoot Glock 26 with the same grip width is going to change anything, really.

Deltaboy
June 21, 2010, 11:17 AM
Brits are nuts if the Glock is too big for the girls get them some Hi-Powers and let it ride.

Justin Holder
June 22, 2010, 01:57 PM
Just my opinion, if you are so small and weak (man or woman) that you can't control a "Real" gun, what are you doing in a job that may require you tackling a 300 pound druggie high out of his mind?.

BlisteringSilence
June 22, 2010, 04:40 PM
Just my opinion, if you are so small and weak (man or woman) that you can't control a "Real" gun, what are you doing in a job that may require you tackling a 300 pound druggie high out of his mind?.

Well, let's see. A Glock 17 is the standard issue. The gun that they're adding is a Glock 26. Both 9mm. One with a shorter barrel.

I would argue that both fall into the category of "real gun"

It's not like they're adding in some little Colt vest pistol in .25acp for their female officers or anything. Just authorizing a smaller Glock.

I guess I just don't see what all the shouting is about here. They're adding another weapon. Good for them.

Our SO has authorized a G22 or a G23 as long as I've been here. The deputy picks the one he likes the best of those two.

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