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arkansashillbilly
June 17, 2010, 11:22 AM
So yesterday I head over to a local outfit that sells reloading supplies and ammo they load on site along with a few firearms. I was looking for small pistol primers specifically. Everytime I go here I think that these guys must need better ventilation in the reloading room or something.
I tell clerk number 1 that I want a 1000 small pistol primers, Remington. Clerk number 2 goes to get them. In the meantime I notice a GI looking, well worn 45 in the display case. Tag says Olympic $675. The slide didn't match the gun as it had basically no finish left, and I thought it was pretty well overpriced, but decided to ask about it anyway. The guy tells me it has a Colt slide, which it did upon further inspection and was chock full of competition parts. Still overpriced in my opinion. Clerk 2 comes back and says they are out of small pistol, but have small rifle. Says it is the same thing, just different packaging. Remington apparently just puts it in different box. I'm not going to argue one way or another. It's not worth my time, but I don't think that's right. But the guy says he toured the plant and watched them do it and they've been subing the small rifle primers in the ammo they load for a while.
Clerk 1 then tells me he'd take $600 for the Olympic cash money, no paperwork, out the door. Says they are just showing it for someone else in the shop. :uhoh:
I tell him no thanks. And then he pulls a Taurus out of the case to show me. Says the quality is the same as a Kimber. I kindly tell him I'm looking for something more GI-ish and leave as another guy behind the counter is choking on a mushroom from his pizza, apparently.
As I was pulling from the parking lot, I notice Clerk 2 standing inside the open rollup door to the reloading shop smoking a cig.

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deadin
June 17, 2010, 11:30 AM
Clerk 1 then tells me he'd take $600 for the Olympic cash money, no paperwork, out the door.

Well, you shouldn't have to listen to their misinformation too much longer. They should be shut down soon...:what:

Friendly, Don't Fire!
June 17, 2010, 11:31 AM
Report that pistol and incident to the ATF.

As for the primers, look up the specifications. Rifle primers are not the same depth as pistol primers, are they?

A Taurus as good as a Kimber?
I don't think so, but what do I know?

Arkansas Paul
June 17, 2010, 11:31 AM
That wouldn't be Blue Star in Searcy would it?

arkansashillbilly
June 17, 2010, 11:40 AM
Arkansas Paul, I don't want to name names, but you must run close circles to me.:)

Tim the student
June 17, 2010, 11:43 AM
As I was pulling from the parking lot, I notice Clerk 2 standing inside the open rollup door to the reloading shop smoking a cig.

Darwin Award candidate. That guy may take care of the shop before the ATF does.

huntsman
June 17, 2010, 11:53 AM
Report that pistol and incident to the ATF.

why? what am I missing in this story?

Drail
June 17, 2010, 11:56 AM
Uh- oh, we have ATF agents on the forum now.

Rail Driver
June 17, 2010, 11:59 AM
Clerk 1 then tells me he'd take $600 for the Olympic cash money, no paperwork, out the door.

Uh- oh, we have ATF agents on the forum now.

Uh... if my local gun shop said something like that I'd report it to the ATF too. I certainly don't want illegal guns floating around my neighborhood, it's only sensible to report gross violations like that.

Of course I'm sure there are those here that regularly break the law, so a simple illegal firearms transfer wouldn't make them bat an eyelash.

arkansashillbilly
June 17, 2010, 12:05 PM
Huntsman,
a face to face transfer between individuals is fine and dandy for cash and carry, no paperwork, but even if the gun belongs to an individual and not the "shop", it should have been entered in the shop's books and thus be logged out properly, which I think would require me to fill out the paperwork as a buyer. I suppose if the shop had the real owner come by and get his gun then I gave the guy 6 bills on the parking lot it might technically be legal, but who wants to have to test the legalities?

qajaq59
June 17, 2010, 12:11 PM
Well, you shouldn't have to listen to their misinformation too much longer. They should be shut down soon... I'll say. LOL

NavyLCDR
June 17, 2010, 12:14 PM
Uh... if my local gun shop said something like that I'd report it to the ATF too. I certainly don't want illegal guns floating around my neighborhood, it's only sensible to report gross violations like that.

Respectfully, and I am pretty sure you did not mean it to sound this way, but it does sound like a classic line from the Brady Campaign. Let's not blame the gun, OK?

The transaction would be illegal, due to the negligence of a shady FFL holder, but has no bearing upon the legality of the gun itself. I only bring this up because we have to be careful not to inadvertantly show support for the anti-gun groups' claims.

Arkansas Paul
June 17, 2010, 12:19 PM
In a small outfit like that, I doubt seriously that the gun was ever entered into any books. If the owner was on the premises, I don't see a problem with him selling it to you without paperwork. ONLY THE OWNER OF THE FIREARM. If not, I'd pass. I certainly wouldn't want to be a part of an illegal firearms transaction. The way things are now, I would err on the side of caution as well. I think you're right not to test the legalities of things. My rights are precious to me. I don't want them taken away.

And to those saying they should be shut down soon, they aren't a fly by night operation. They've been is business for over twenty years. They aren't going anywhere.

deadin
June 17, 2010, 12:23 PM
If it's in their showcase, it had better be in their book.:uhoh

huntsman
June 17, 2010, 12:23 PM
Huntsman,
a face to face transfer between individuals is fine and dandy for cash and carry, no paperwork, but even if the gun belongs to an individual and not the "shop", it should have been entered in the shop's books and thus be logged out properly, which I think would require me to fill out the paperwork as a buyer. I suppose if the shop had the real owner come by and get his gun then I gave the guy 6 bills on the parking lot it might technically be legal, but who wants to have to test the legalities?
I’m no lawyer but I thought the shop had to take in on their books to require the 4473 (as in a consignment?) if the gun belongs to a worker putting in the case would be no different than placing a sign on the counter.

arkansashillbilly
June 17, 2010, 12:30 PM
If it's in the case in a shop, I think I wouldn't want to buy it unless I had to fill out the paperwork. As far as the specific business, I do plan on buying from them on occasion (at least until it goes up in a fireball) to save on shipping and such, but I think I'll keep it to brass and projectiles and maybe ammo cans. I'd hate to get some repackaged powder or primers.

Rail Driver
June 17, 2010, 12:44 PM
Respectfully, and I am pretty sure you did not mean it to sound this way, but it does sound like a classic line from the Brady Campaign. Let's not blame the gun, OK?

The transaction would be illegal, due to the negligence of a shady FFL holder, but has no bearing upon the legality of the gun itself. I only bring this up because we have to be careful not to inadvertantly show support for the anti-gun groups' claims.

You're right, I worded that wrong. I would prefer not to have another idiot felon with a gun in my neighborhood :)

I've never been to a gun shop that would sell ANY firearm without checking ID and putting pen to paper. If the shop has a firearm on offer and actually sells it for the guy without any paperwork then that shop has committed a felony. If they're displaying the firearm and advertising that they'll sell it without paperwork for cash, then they INTEND to commit a felony. In some states, intent is the same as committing the crime. Where the ATF is concerned, I'd stay as far away as possible, and warn anyone I have any regard for to do the same. I would also report the OFFER of an off the books sale to the ATF. It's entirely possible it could be a "sting" operation to try to catch felons that attempt to buy guns, but judging by the other information in the OP, I doubt it. They don't seem to care who they sell to and just don't want to have to deal with paperwork, phonecalls and taxes is what it sounds like to me.

Claude Clay
June 17, 2010, 12:51 PM
small point but--if the price is $600 out the door, i wonder if that includes the sales tax---assuming he is legit and gonna collect it and pay it.....

jcwit
June 17, 2010, 01:12 PM
Well, you shouldn't have to listen to their misinformation too much longer.

As for the primers, look up the specifications. Rifle primers are not the same depth as pistol primers, are they?


More misinformation--Small pistol & small rifle have the same dimensions. Large pistol & large rifle are different.

Now then, back to selling a pistol.

FirearmsEnthusiast
June 17, 2010, 01:20 PM
Report that pistol and incident to the ATF.

As for the primers, look up the specifications. Rifle primers are not the same depth as pistol primers, are they?

A Taurus as good as a Kimber?
I don't think so, but what do I know?

What would the ATF do?

Friendly, Don't Fire!
June 17, 2010, 01:24 PM
I don't know, what would they do? :rolleyes:

As for the small pistol vs. small rifle primers, you are correct, they measure the same, as for dimensions, the difference being in the thickness of the metal - where small rifle primers are typically a thicker metal than small pistol primers. Hey, you guys just taught me something I didn't know! Thanks!

I would not want to use small pistol primers in a rifle becuase the pressures of most rifles with small primers are typically greater than the pressures of small pistols. There is a possibility that a primer may perforate due to extreme pressure. There is also the possibility of a slam-fire in any guns where there is a floating firing pin.

I suppose one could use small rifle primers in a pistol, however the strike may be light and the primer may not ignite.

arkansashillbilly
June 17, 2010, 01:28 PM
With my luck tell them "arkansashillbilly says you tried to sell him a gun without proper paperwork". Then I'd be buying all my brass and projectiles off the net and paying shipping and having to look over my shoulder for people other than my own relatives that don't like me.

svaz
June 17, 2010, 01:36 PM
oops - posted a reply into the wrong thread - WTH?

Friendly, Don't Fire!
June 17, 2010, 01:39 PM
I understand. :uhoh:

I thought, perhaps they would send someone in who they might try the same thing to, but then that probably would not happen if you frequent the place enough so they basically know you (which sounds like the case, but I could be wrong).

I guess I feel it is too bad when someone does something a bit on the "shady" side, as it typically ends up having the result of "ruining it for everyone" when the government clamps down and makes up new laws. Kind of a lose-lose situation for the honest person.

huntsman
June 17, 2010, 02:11 PM
I guess I feel it is too bad when someone does something a bit on the "shady" side, as it typically ends up having the result of "ruining it for everyone" when the government clamps down and makes up new laws. Kind of a lose-lose situation for the honest person.

So you think a gun shop in a Podunk state like Arkansas selling a gun (that might full well be totally legal) would create new Fed law?

Stick with the sting theory that at least is humorus.

Rail Driver
June 17, 2010, 02:19 PM
So you think a gun shop in a Podunk state like Arkansas selling a gun (that might full well be totally legal) would create new Fed law?

Stick with the sting theory that at least is humorus.

If that gun happens to be sold illegally (or legally for that matter) and then used in a high profile crime it could very well result in a new federal law. It's not the gun's fault (as was mentioned before) it's the fault of the buyer if transferred legally, and both the seller and the buyer if transferred illegally.

As far as the sting theory, I seem to remember awhile back a sting operation run just like that... pistols in the case, undercover offers to sell the pistol to a guy with no paperwork, background check, etc. and as soon as money changes hands cops come out of the woodwork, no different than the prostitution stings.

Podunk state... have you ever been to Little Rock? Doesn't seem so podunk to me.

By the way, your spell check missed humorous.

arkansashillbilly
June 17, 2010, 02:23 PM
I don't think it would matter too much to a fed agency whether it is my podunk state or The Great State of Ohio, sir, where an issue occurs just so long as it gives them ammunition. As you post on this board, I'm sure you are just as concerned as I about further infringement upon our rights as firearms owners and enthusiasts. I think this is the concern Inspector was trying to get at.
I don't think I said anything negative about The Great State of Ohio when you so clearly missed the issue from my original post.

arkansashillbilly
June 17, 2010, 02:32 PM
Fuzzy posted as I was typing. It never occurred to me that I might have been the target of a sting. Interesting idea though.
Thanks for defending my home state by the way.

Rail Driver
June 17, 2010, 02:34 PM
No problem... Arkansas has some great city life and beautiful countryside to see. No one state is any better or worse than any other (except california needs to drop off the map and vermont would be heaven if it wasn't so cold!)

Coyote3855
June 17, 2010, 02:38 PM
When I was an IPSC competitor, it was common to use small rifle primers in .40 S&W reloads. I think the assumption was the rifle primers provided more reliable ignition. Probably an urban legend?

deadin
June 17, 2010, 02:42 PM
It doesn't matter where it is, let Bloomberg know about it and he will have a half dozen "agents" down there trying to buy it. (complete with hidden cameras showing the whole thing):barf::barf:

Werewolf
June 17, 2010, 02:48 PM
Arkansas Paul, I don't want to name names, but you must run close circles to me.:)
Why not...

This is something I've never understood. Guys post messages like this explaining a situation at a shop and then won't tell people the name of the shop so they can go there if it's a good experience or avoid it if not.

What are y'all afraid of?

I just don't get it...

deadin
June 17, 2010, 02:48 PM
I think the assumption was the rifle primers provided more reliable ignition.

It's always been my understanding that rifle primers are hotter than pistol primers. (Bigger case and more powder to ignite.) So,sure, maybe more reliable ignition, however this also can do bad things to pressure curves unless loaded to allow for it.
The downside is they are also harder than pistol primers, so less reliable of actually going off under the weaker firing pin strike of a pistol as compared to a rifle.

arkansashillbilly
June 17, 2010, 03:00 PM
werewolf,
I figured the smiley was plenty enough confirmation for Arkansas Paul.

deadin,
That is exactly my understanding as well. However thinking about the hardness, I might be better off using small rifle primers for this specific application. I'm loading 9mm for a semiauto Sten MkIII. The harder primers could theoretically provide a little reassurance against potential slamfires. The weapon utilizes an AR15 firing pin and the bolt is fairly heavy. Slamfires with this could result in some eyebrow raising malfunctions that might be heavily frowned on. I think I might do a little experimentation with some primed brass and drop the bolt on it hard a few times before I load a full mag in it.

ccsniper
June 17, 2010, 03:23 PM
I thought a rifle or a pistol could be sold on consignment by the owner and not need an 4473?

Corey
June 17, 2010, 03:33 PM
I thought a rifle or a pistol could be sold on consignment by the owner and not need an 4473?
Nope, if it is on consignment it gets logged just like any other firearm and has the same requirements. You are buying the gun from a licensed dealer so you have to do the paperwork. If you are buying directly from an individual and you are both residents of the same state then there is no paperwork under federal law (state laws can vary)

Werewolf
June 17, 2010, 03:40 PM
I don't want to name names,

I understand that the smiley might have been enough to name the store, maybe. What I am trying to understand is why the reluctance to name names when it comes to a place of business. It's not just you. Lots of posters relate both horror stories and stories which would entice one into a business but for reasons unknown - at least to me - won't name the business. If one is telling the truth there's nothing to fear by naming the store. If not then the story shouldn't be told anyway.

What's the big deal about naming a business?

rmfnla
June 17, 2010, 04:05 PM
"Everytime I go here I think that these guys must need better ventilation in the reloading room or something."

LOL!

CoRoMo
June 17, 2010, 04:06 PM
I've encountered a number of licensees that did not have a full grasp of the regs. A couple actually recommended that I do something that was in fact a felony, but they didn't know it. I simply explained to them what the law says and what the legal procedure actually was. They simply didn't know all the ins and outs of every individual reg, so I gave them the information they hadn't memorized yet. I would never have run screaming to the bureau just because the licensee was mistaken on a subject or two.

arkansashillbilly
June 17, 2010, 04:07 PM
I see your point. My original post was not so much a condemnation of that particular business. It was more a post of "can you believe the nonsense that people will say to sell something". The offer of an illegal transaction would go to display a complete lack of morals in my opinion, but I would still buy brass from them. As I am with any company though, I wouldn't trust them to have the best prices just because they might say they do, I'll still shop around myself to determine that. It is sad to think though that someone could go in there, not know any better and end up loading their ammo with the wrong primers, illegally buy an overpriced 45 used along with a Taurus that they think is on the level with a Kimber.

CoRoMo
June 17, 2010, 04:17 PM
It is sad to think though that someone could go in there anywhere, not know any better and end up...
An ill-informed customer can wind up doing, or falling for, anything, anywhere. If someone takes a salesman's word and buys what he's selling, without any research of their own, it isn't the fault of the salesman.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
June 17, 2010, 04:35 PM
I agree, like all the snake oil that has been selling like hotcakes on a winter's day!:uhoh:

Anyway, fun thread, and I think we all learned something, I know I did about interchanging small primers in a pinch!:)

Oh, and not to let some guy try to talk me into something without papers. :scrutiny:
LOL:D

Arkansas Paul
June 17, 2010, 04:55 PM
I've encountered a number of licensees that did not have a full grasp of the regs. A couple actually recommended that I do something that was in fact a felony, but they didn't know it.

I would wager that this is the case in this instance as well. These guys are primarily a brass and bullet company that also sells their own manufactored ammo. I've toured the loading room and it's impressive. They've got three of the $40,000 pneumatic loaders as well as about 20 Dillon 1050s.
My point is, they've just very recently gotten into the selling of firearms. I'm sure their knowledge of the regs isn't up to par. Don't know how much that would help them if they got caught though. I don't know if they would show any mercy or not.

CoRoMo
June 17, 2010, 05:10 PM
Eh, I don't know. We've all certainly memorized a number of the ATF horror stories that have taken place, but nobody ever hears about them giving a fella a pass for his 'honest' mistakes. Those stories will never be told.

With the ATF, you should never expect mercy, but I hope they are capable of it.:o Mistakes happen, but when you are being watch by the likes of the bureau, you really can't afford to make any.

Zack
June 17, 2010, 05:18 PM
kindly tell him I'm looking for something more GI-ish and leave as another guy behind the counter is choking on a mushroom from his pizza, apparently.
As I was pulling from the parking lot, I notice Clerk 2 standing inside the open rollup door to the reloading shop smoking a cig.

LoL

huntsman
June 17, 2010, 05:22 PM
I don't think it would matter too much to a fed agency whether it is my podunk state or The Great State of Ohio, sir, where an issue occurs just so long as it gives them ammunition. As you post on this board, I'm sure you are just as concerned as I about further infringement upon our rights as firearms owners and enthusiasts. I think this is the concern Inspector was trying to get at.
I don't think I said anything negative about The Great State of Ohio when you so clearly missed the issue from my original post.
First off I didn’t mean Podunk as a slur but only as a sparsely populated, which is why I find it hard to believe a sting or anything else would be going on (I doubt your state garners too much Fed scrutiny) but who knows.

As to whether this deal would have been illegal I haven’t seen any proof here yet that what you described is cut and dried more just a matter of interpretation, for all you know clerk 1 was the owner and just didn’t admit that to you..

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