A lesson in being too judgemental or How to be humbled.


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leadcounsel
June 18, 2010, 06:13 PM
I consciously try to NOT be a judgemental person. I've had struggle and difficulty and have made my fair share of mistakes.

Recently, for instance, others posted here flaming a stewardess for carrying her gun through airport security (assuming it was accidental I would forgive her).

Here's my lesson in humility. Recently I was going through airport security with a small Maxpedition bag - it's the bag I take on woods hiking and camping trips. I thought I had checked every pocket but missed the pocket containing my .357 speedloader loaded with hollowpoints. Well, airport security didn't miss it and I was pulled out of line, questioned, subject to an incident report (ID photocopied and affixed to said report) and they confiscated my ammo. I missed my flight too. Luckily I was able to get on the next flight which was an hour later. And, they gave me the option of throwing my speedloader away or putting it in my car or mailing it to myself. Although I couldn't carry the empty speedloader on the flight :banghead: I had some time to kill so I took it back to the car.

Anyway, accidents happen and I certainly think others here should be less judgemental because they can happen to even the most careful of us. As I said, it was an honest mistake and I thoroughly believed I checked every pocket. Shooters, in particular, should be extra careful when checking through your bags, pants, whatever you may have for ammo. I know some folks here have separate designated bags for travel - that may be a good decision going forward.

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shockwave
June 18, 2010, 06:59 PM
I certainly think others here should be less judgemental because they can happen to even the most careful of us

Ah, no. Ammunition should be treated with the same care you apply to your firearms. After all, without ammo, your guns are nothing but door-stops. You should always know where each and every round of ammo you have is, at all times. Forgetting where you have a speedloader is a potentially fatal mistake - if you need those cartridges in an emergency.

Treat each cartridge with the same care with which you handle your firearms.

strambo
June 18, 2010, 07:10 PM
Forgetting where you have a speedloader is a potentially fatal mistake - if you need those cartridges in an emergency.

Treat each cartridge with the same care with which you handle your firearms. Except he made the opposite mistake, had ammo when he didn't need it/want it. Not the same as forgetting ammo when you mean to have it. Besides, it is a silly, arbitrary thing...airport security. He was prepared as he should be (had ammo for an emergency), then chose to use his bag prepped for emergencies as a travel bag where inanimate objects like ammo and a speed loader absent a gun are still verboten.

I know I can't live up to your high standard of always knowing where every round of ammo is either...:uhoh:

rondog
June 18, 2010, 07:16 PM
True story - back in the late 80's, I was flying from NY to OK, and using my large camera bag for a carry-on. It went through TWO x-rays and one hand inspection during the trip. When I got home, I was going through the bag and found the loaded Rohm RG-10 .22 revolver that I'd forgotten was in the bag! I still can't believe they didn't find it, and I'd probably still be in jail for it.

DaleA
June 18, 2010, 07:55 PM
It's 6:55 CDT, do YOU know where your AMMO is???!!!

For the younger crowd, there use to be public service announcements on TV (maybe radio too) in the evening listing the time and asking if you knew where your children were. It was an attempt to make parents feel guilty if they didn't know where their kids were and hopefully cut down on juvenile delinquency. The problem was, the parents that didn't pay any attention to their kids didn't pay any attention to the PSA either.

Leadcounsel, if that's the worst firearms related mistake you've made IMhO you're way ahead of most of us here, me included.

I would be interested to hear what happens to you NEXT time you fly.

Vonderek
June 18, 2010, 08:00 PM
Easy solution. Buy an extra carry-on bag. Keep the range bag at home.

NukemJim
June 18, 2010, 08:00 PM
I've had ammunition show up in the darndest places, did you know you can run .22 ammo through the washer and dryer no problems ( well the dryer was set on low :neener: )

Having extra ammo is rarely a problem the OP just happened to be extremely unlucky in that his is one of the few times ammo can get you in trouble.

Not having enough ammo on the other hand can be a problem.

Just hope the OP is not hassled when he flies in the future for a silly, harmless, mistake that was made without malice and did not endanger anyone. He has already paid enough of a penalty for what occurred.

NukemJim

joeq
June 18, 2010, 08:04 PM
Delete

rmfnla
June 18, 2010, 08:15 PM
Years ago I was flying to N. Florida with my buddy in our Cessna. We were having problems with one of the auto-pilot gyros so we decided to leave it in Ocala for service and fly back to Miami commercial.

I had one foot through the metal detector when I realized I had my NAA .22 in my pocket (the same one I always rag about misfiring; this was at an earlier date).

I took it to the ticket counter and they helped me package it for mailing to my home. I guess they were so nice because I took it to them before walking through the metal detector.

I was very grateful that I had that realization!

sonier
June 18, 2010, 08:55 PM
last year around august, I cant believe this one, i was going through denver, i had lost my wallet so i had no ID so they made me go through extra screening, i made it through the extra screening they had this machine to test chemical residues its interesting, so i got on the plane, and arrived at atlanta when i realized i accidently carried 5 .22LR rounds in my pocket through the security and extra screening.

oldfool
June 18, 2010, 09:27 PM
I respect and admire OP
thank you !

(I do have a little bit harder time respecting people who live in glass houses, but have never broken a window..... yet)

I have lost a pocket knife or two, due to highly similar circumstance (nothing real special), but made me mad at me all the same, it being nobody's fault but my own, no BS.. I used to have 'em stashed pert near everywhere in everything, had to get over it, and I did

back when CCW was a lot less common, have reached in my pocket at a shop counter for loose change, and come out with a few loose bullets mixed in with loose change.. nothing wrong with that, not hardly, no apologies required, nor offered... but it did not impress me with my own intelligence, either... just because you can is no excuse for making others needlessly uncomfortable, whether they should be needlessly uncomfortable or not,
common courtesy does not require philosophical agreement, it merely requires a little self respect

me, I can use as many reminders as I can get, and I respect any who are willing to bear the disdain of perfect people, to help me out whenever they can

thanks, leadcounsel

Drail
June 18, 2010, 09:29 PM
Airport security is an absolute abomination and an insult to everything our founding fathers fought and bled and died for. If American citzens would boycott the air travel industry we could end this stupidity.:fire:

ozarkgunner
June 18, 2010, 11:00 PM
I had to fly out of town for a business trip about 4 years ago. It was kind of spurr of the moment, the situation was not expected. I had that days notice. I had to go home and pack a bag and be to the airport in about three hours. I got home, grabed one of my luggage bags, packed it, and my wife and I were on our way to the airport.
I got there, checked in, and went to security. I was only taking one bag, and it was small enough for carry on. I got thru the metal detector just fine, but my bag didn't make it thru the Xray. It, and I got pulled off to the side, while extra security was called.

Apparently, some how, two .22lr rounds made it in the bag. At the time I only owned one .22 gun. The bag had not been used since our last move, two years prior. I can't for the life of me figure out how the rounds got into that bag. It was not one that I had ever used to carry my guns or ammo in. They were at the very bottom, under the rigid plastic liner.

I was cleared to board my flight. the two rounds were confiscated and bagged. About three weeks later I received a letter from TSA and Homeland Security, documenting the incident. They stated that the incident had been handled, documented, and felt that it was accidental, not malicious. And that no further action was needed or would be taken.

My superiors still don't know about the situation.

Sgt_R
June 18, 2010, 11:11 PM
I went to see a major political candidate give a speech during the 2008 election cycle. I made it almost all the way to the front of the line, then realized I was about to hit the security checkpoint with a 4" Benchmade auto-folder in my pocket. I had to walk back to the truck, ditch the knife, then go all the way to the back of the line since I didn't have anyone to hold my spot.

It wasn't a short line.

R

mljdeckard
June 18, 2010, 11:22 PM
Hey man, I did it too.

I spent a stretch in Benin translating for a training/humanitarian mission for some marines a year ago. When I repacked and switched to civvies for the flight home, they pulled my carry-on out of the x-ray belt and pulled out my Gerber Mk II that I have had for almost 20 years. In the bucket it goes. No second chances, no sense of humor at all. I felt stupid and I was NON happy about losing it, but at the same time, my changeover was in Paris, and I was re-checked there. If THEY had found it, the process would have been much more painful, I'm sure.

And my wife let me buy a new one. :)

Sgt_R
June 18, 2010, 11:52 PM
I've got a couple more...

In 2003, coming back from the sandbox, I flew from Qatar, through Germany, all the way to Baltimore with a folder in my pocket. I didn't even think about it, and thankfully, security screening was a bit lighter for returning troops back then (not happening these days, believe me).

In the late 90's, I got a ride in the back of a local PD car, into a holding cell at the county jail, and was fingerprinted before being released (loooong story... short version: someone matching my description was the subject of an ongoing investigation, I voluteered to provide prints to clear myself). Anyway, I was never charged or under arrest, and therefore was never searched... so I accidentally carried a Leatherman multitool into and back out of the county jail on my belt. Whoops.

R

RoostRider
June 19, 2010, 12:21 AM
Not long after 911 I went to Jamaica for a vacation... I brought a back pack carry on that I use all the time for whatever....

I went through the metal detectors at MSP International without hassle, but my bag was taken aside and I was shuffled off as well.... they searched my bag, and then ran some little white cloths through my bag and put them in a sniffer machine (for explosives).... then they searched my bag again... then they asked me if I had ever kept explosives in my bag.... that seemed odd to me, but I told them that I use the bag for whatever, and had, undoubtedly at least put a gun in it at some point.... they searched me and then let me board (on time)

When I got to Jamaica and into my hotel room I dumped my bag on my bed and a .223 round rolled out onto the bed... I sighed a big sigh of relief and then told some of my Jamaican buddies about it....

You have no idea how 'in demand' one round of .223 can be until you've been to a dangerous third world country where guns and ammo are not allowed.... in order to keep from getting into any trouble (and to keep my friends from any) I decided to lob it into the ocean instead of selling it to a Jamaican who wanted to build a gun for it... lol.... he wanted it to protect himself (from the police) :uhoh:

Two or three years later my girlfriend was robbed at gun point, in our hotel room, in Jamaica.... while I was sitting at the bar within ear shot....

NOLAEMT
June 19, 2010, 01:32 AM
last Christmas i was flying home to see the folks, and I had been shooting earlier that day. I checked and double checked my pockets, and went though security just fine. When I got to my parents house I changed to go to bed and out of my pocket fell 4 (four!) .45 acp rounds. I couldn't believe they didn't set off the metal detector.

scythefwd
June 19, 2010, 04:57 AM
Back in 05, I made it on to a plane with a knife. It was a Leatherman Wave. I forgot about it in my bag, and it showed up on the scanners. When I opened up the top pocket to my backpack, there was 2 rolls of quarters right where the leatherman was in the intermediate pocket. The checker assumed it was the quarters (and so did I) and on I went. Got to the hotel in Hawaii and unpacked. Found the leatherman in my carry on baggage..... proceeded to defecate construction materials.

EddieNFL
June 19, 2010, 06:07 AM
I do have a little bit harder time respecting people who live in glass houses, but have never broken a window..... yet

And we all live in glass houses.

A few years ago I made it through security with a folder in my carry-on. Luckily, I found it before my return trip as the inspection was much more thorough.

Victor1Echo
June 19, 2010, 08:37 AM
Lead counsel,

The highest form of human understanding is evaluation. I never judge people, I only evaluate things.

killchain
June 19, 2010, 08:48 AM
I despise the TSA's policies.

Flying home on leave, and being "randomly selected" for a near-strip search at every single airport from Kuwait to Seattle. One old lady in Salt Lake City booed them while they wanded me in ACU's with my boots off.

mustang_steve
June 19, 2010, 11:34 AM
My Range bag is ONLY my range bag. Given it's an identical bag to my work bag, however there's some modifications to it that make it obvious to me which bag is which, such as blaze orange reflective tabs and details I've added to it.

BTW laptop bags can make awesome range bags, provided you buy one that's of quality build (mine has steel hardware and quad-stitching).

sonier
June 19, 2010, 11:59 AM
Theres a few of us whove accidently carried catridges through security without getting caught, I believe its hard to find these catridges do to the round being brass and your buttons and zippers are sometimes made out of brass, these are right next to each other so this is my theory why some of us didnt get caught.

leadcounsel
June 19, 2010, 01:33 PM
I imagine many knives have been confiscated and taken home by the TSA workers. When I was returning from Iraq in trip number one we also went through Navy customs in Kuwait. I found a nice Gerber multitool on top of the amnesty box - it had been discarded by someone who had already checked his bags thru. Lost property. It was a nice find for me but angered me that Soldiers cannot be trusted with gerbers...

I also acquired a nice cold steel knife secondhand through a soldier going on leave. He forgot his large cold steel knife on his body armor and gave it to a friend, who in turn gave it to me.

I guess you win some and lose some, but I do hate being treated like an untrusted second class citizen.

Cosmoline
June 19, 2010, 01:55 PM
Airport security is an absolute abomination and an insult to everything our founding fathers fought and bled and died for

Pretty much. And it's the model for what a lot of folks up top--D and R alike--would love to see the USA as a whole become.

rbohm
June 19, 2010, 02:46 PM
Ah, no. Ammunition should be treated with the same care you apply to your firearms. After all, without ammo, your guns are nothing but door-stops. You should always know where each and every round of ammo you have is, at all times. Forgetting where you have a speedloader is a potentially fatal mistake - if you need those cartridges in an emergency.

Treat each cartridge with the same care with which you handle your firearms.

in an ideal world you are correct. however mistakes happen even to the best of us, be it forgetting that a range bag you carried two years ago still has a speed loader in one of the pockets, or forgetting to make sure your vehicle is in gear so it wont roll backwards on you when you get out of the vehicle(happened to me once). try as you might, you will make a mistake that will cause you problems.

Airport security is an absolute abomination and an insult to everything our founding fathers fought and bled and died for. If American citzens would boycott the air travel industry we could end this stupidity.

well if you have a better idea to prevent terrorists from hijacking planes, or blowing them up, perhaps you need to contact the government and the airlines and tell them. understand however there is no right to fly, just like there is no right to drive. also remember that the airlines are private industries, and regulated by the government, and thus if we want to fly anywhere we have to follow their rules.

sonier
June 19, 2010, 03:03 PM
I think airport security, is an absolute necessity, im sorry for those ive offended. if you got a problem with airport security drive your car or stop complaining. The reason we have it is to prevent innocent people from dying. Ive thought about writing a letter to denver TSA to tell them i accidently had a .22 cartridge in my pocket and went through extra screening as well, and that they may need to look at this gap of security and fix the issue.

oldbear
June 19, 2010, 03:57 PM
Leadcounsel, thanks for admitting you are human and from time to time can err. I can’t come close to keeping up with all the bonehead stunts I’ve pulled over the years. The real trick with mistakes is not to keep making the same one over and over, learn from you error and move on.

Drail
June 19, 2010, 04:00 PM
rbohm and sonier, so it is your belief that the TSA is actually keeping you safe from anyone who wants to hijack an airliner? WOW. I don't have a problem with security but not at the cost of throwing the Bill of Rights in the trash can. I do have a problem with airport security because it is nothing but a theatrical show for dumb people. Maybe there is no right to fly and no right to drive but I do recall something somewhere about freedom from unreasonable search and seizure and a basic right to self defense. People like you who are willing to give up the freedoms your fathers fought for to "feel safe" are a major part of the problem. How many years did the FAA and the airlines tell us not to resist the hijackers and to just cooperate with them and everything would be okay? Do you really believe that stripping people of their right of self defense and any means to do so makes you safer? How pathetic. If you want to trust your life to some TSA clown or the Department of Homeboy Security, good luck. May your chains rest lightly upon you. And oh, sonier, the Govt. is supposed to follow our rules last time I read the Constitution. The airlines are private industries regulated by the insurance industry and the liability lawyers, not the Govt.

bthest86
June 19, 2010, 04:02 PM
Ive thought about writing a letter to denver TSA to tell them i accidently had a .22 cartridge in my pocket and went through extra screening as well, and that they may need to look at this gap of security and fix the issue.

Well they might take at as helpful advice and use it to correct mistakes or they may decide your letter is an admission to a crime, bring criminal charges against you and/or bar you from ever stepping on an airplane for the rest of your life. With the TSA it could be anything.

I wouldn't say anything about it.

BeerSleeper
June 19, 2010, 04:14 PM
well if you have a better idea to prevent terrorists from hijacking planes, or blowing them up, perhaps you need to contact the government and the airlines and tell them..

Allow ccw on the planes. Is that not the argument we make here? Legal possession of firearms is a crime deterrent, and valuable defensive right. How far will a few terrorists get, if 10% of a 400 passenger plane is carrying?

All the security restricitions in the world aren't going to stop them. So what if you take away all their shampoo and nail clippers. They could just buy every seat on the plane, and take it over with raw barehanded manpower.

bthest86
June 19, 2010, 04:16 PM
What about flights to outside the US where taking your ccw isn't an option?

strambo
June 19, 2010, 04:27 PM
Security isn't the problem...it's the BS "security theater" designed to make the masses "feel" safe, while not actually adding to safety that bothers me.

Chemical explosive sniffers-effective. X ray for luggage and passengers, somewhat effective. Not allowing knives, very dubious. Anyone can (illegally) carry a large ceramic, polymer or titanium knife right through. There were no issues when knives were allowed either, sure 9/11 with their idiotic box cutters (they could have had real knives), but they can still do that with alternative materials.

All the silly "no fluids, knitting needles, etc, etc" Absolutely useless and annoying. Not using common sense criteria for searches, but idiotic, random ones where security is wasting time with an 80yo handicapped lady, useless.

Yes, CCW would help, or more palatable: pass legislation like the bill that allowed all LE officers to carry in the US and extend that to flights.

Ammo and such (speedloaders, magazines) poses no security hazard at all absent a firearm...

orionengnr
June 19, 2010, 04:40 PM
Treat each cartridge with the same care with which you handle your firearms.
Ludicrous.
As a 20+ year airline employee, I have a few TSA stories to tell.
Better that I don't though, as I might end up on (yet another) list...:rolleyes:

sonier
June 19, 2010, 04:48 PM
I really do believe airport security does help deter crime in such a terroist form or other types, and i dont think its such a great idea to let concealed carry holders on planes, I really dont want to be on that plane that joemoe tryed to stop a terroist and instead punched a full clip of 9mm through the planes fuselage.

sonier
June 19, 2010, 04:51 PM
afterthought the fluid thing is ridicoulous. i saw a kid getting hassled for having deodrant this kid was like 12 years old it was absurd.

Drail
June 19, 2010, 05:49 PM
"a full clip of 9mm through plane's fuselage". James Bond fan, eh? I am glad that you see through the ridiculousness of "the fluid thing". There's hope for you yet.

sonier
June 19, 2010, 05:53 PM
I bet you a good mount of money if i accidently had leadcast 357 mag bullets loaded that they would go through a airplanes walls

shockwave
June 19, 2010, 06:02 PM
Didn't mean for my comment to sound overly critical. I've been a gun owner and IDPA shooter for a long time. I carry guns and ammo around a lot. I've just never had a problem keeping track of this stuff. So my thinking is that if you have a speedloader turn up by surprise somewhere unexpectedly, that maybe you're being a bit lax in your handling procedures.

And yes, that's something that can happen to anyone. But we try to minimize such problems.

Big agreement here that most of "airport security" is theater and has little to do with safety. We gave up way too much liberty for a gauzy illusion, and are now being accustomed to having uniformed pissants screaming at us and forcing us to humiliate ourselves before petty authority figures. It is an insult to the soul.

Sgt_R
June 19, 2010, 06:10 PM
I bet you a good mount of money if i accidently had leadcast 357 mag bullets loaded that they would go through a airplanes walls

You're absolutely right. So would a 9mm, for that matter. And... absolutely nothing much would happen. Oh, the passenger compartment would depressurize a bit, and the oxygen masks might drop from the ceiling. In the cockpit, a little warning light would come on somewhere, and the pilot would make arrangements to land at the most convenient nearby airport. That's pretty much it.

An airplane isn't going to come apart in midair because you shot it with a handgun, any more than a car is going to explode from being shot with the same handgun. They're both different versions of the same Hollywood myth.

R

xcgates
June 19, 2010, 06:21 PM
I see the big problem with airport security is the assumption that once you get past the security, nobody can do anything dangerous. Someone will always be able to find a way around security. So we now have a plane full of people who have been stripped of what I consider basic tools. I use knives every day for anything from fixing my car/bike, opening packages, fixing other things, food, etc.

And no, I don't fly, the last time I flew was when I had orders to fly, two years ago.

gc70
June 19, 2010, 06:27 PM
I moved to the Gulf coast in 1985. Shortly after the moving van was unloaded, my boss call and said there was an emergency and I had to get to Little Rock ASAP. I called and got a plane reservation, scrounged through boxes to find some suits and remembered I had a bag in the car with a week's worth of underwear and some toiletries, so I was off to the airport. I made it to within a dozen feet of the metal detector before it dawned on me that my underwear bag was really heavy. I stopped at a bench and dug through my underwear bag until my hand encountered... a 6-inch N-frame .357 that I had put in the bottom of the bag because the moving company had refused to carry firearms. I dashed back to my car and left the gun in the trunk.

leadcounsel
June 19, 2010, 07:02 PM
Maybe there is no right to fly and no right to drive but I do recall something somewhere about freedom from unreasonable search and seizure and a basic right to self defense.

Allow ccw on the planes. Is that not the argument we make here? Legal possession of firearms is a crime deterrent, and valuable defensive right. How far will a few terrorists get, if 10% of a 400 passenger plane is carrying?

Well these are both very interesting arguments - I will preface my comments that I am about as PRO CCW as you can get. However, I recognized that there are situations where you have to surrender your sidearm for the overall good; eg. courtrooms, political speaches, and airplanes for instance, and just rely on the provided security to handle the job.

Think of the choas a BAD person or a group of BAD people could cause if you were allowed to CCW on an airplane and these 10 BAD people planned a coordinated attack. If their goal was to just simply to bring down an airplane over a populated city, that would be easy if they could ccw on the flight. So in reality your ccw would be useless if 10 others started a surprise gunfight. Everyone on the flight and many on the ground would perish, and the cost would be in the tens of millions of dollars. And this scenario could play out at a coordinated time on the same day across the world or nation. No thanks. As much as I hate the security checkpoints, and I rarely fly if I can drive there instead, I'll prefer (common sense) TSA measures, even if some of it is smoke and mirrors.

Sometimes you've just got to briefly surrender your rights to participate in the overall good and efficiency of the system.

As for flying vs. driving, whoever said you have a choice is generally right. Unless your business forces you to fly, you can drive. And in reality you can check your firearms and get them in a few hours when you land, and yes you are safer by not allowing the BAD guys to ccw on the flight, even at the cost of disallowing all, because flights are a unique micro-world where gunplay can easily result in a lose-lose situation for all aboard.

Liquid and plastic explosives exist and are potent. As for liquids, fluids, and hygiene products, I've had to throw away a few new tubes of toothpaste and was really really annoyed. But let's be reasonable- you're flying on a multimillion dollar plane with hundreds of strangers, all with families, etc. At the cost of a few dollars in hygiene products, I prefer them to get confiscated rather than the potential for them to be liquid or plastic explosives.

ninja45
June 19, 2010, 07:56 PM
Last year I took a vacation with my wife and flew to my homeland (Philippines) to visit friends and family. I had a backpack where I have my laptop and all its accessories (recharger, external hard drive, etc). We went thru very thorough security check as we were flying international. When we arrived in Manila, we had a connecting flight to another city. We had three security checkpoints before we were even allowed to board the plane.

We got to our destination, I unpack my backpack and in one of its pockets found twleve .40 S&W hollow points! I almost had a heart attack! I would still be in prison if not for the angels who blinded the security inspectors both in US and the Philippines!

Drail
June 19, 2010, 10:27 PM
The problem with giving up your rights "for the overall good" is that some politician or judge gets to decide when it is "for the overall good". I believe that they need to ask the permission of the governed before they do this. They believe that they do not. They seem to have lost sight of the fact that they are supposed to be working for us. This is the difference between being a citizen of the Republic or being a subject of the Democratic State. As a child I pledged allegiance to the Republic. As a member of the military I took an oath to defend the Constitution. I plan on continuing to do so until they zip me into a body bag. I will not bow down and surrender my rights as a human being to any judge or any politician.

BeerSleeper
June 19, 2010, 11:21 PM
I really dont want to be on that plane that joemoe tryed to stop a terroist and instead punched a full clip of 9mm through the planes fuselage.

You prefer instead to find out what the terrorists plan for your plane is? A half-cocked, unplanned attempt at resistance is not good, but is better than no resistance at all.

Sometimes you've just got to briefly surrender your rights to participate in the overall good and efficiency of the system.
Who gets to determine which rights should be given up? You wouldn't want me to make that determination, and I wouldn't want you to do it.

esquare
June 20, 2010, 09:21 AM
Sometimes you've just got to briefly surrender your rights to participate in the overall good and efficiency of the system.

No, you don't. That's why we have a Constitution - to remind us that when people say things like that, they are wrong. If the Founders wanted to restrict the 2A, they would have.

Now, to the TSA, they are probably the govt org that drives me the most crazy, and I honestly believe that they are not only ineffective, but a bunch of bullies to the American people (forgive me if anyone here works for them). This thread is a perfect example of how easy it is for well meaning, law abiding people to accidentally carry weapons into a secure area. Now, imagine what someone with evil intent could do with a little forethought.

I don't advocate for no security at airports - I don't think anyone here does. But, I do advocate that we address the problem with a certain amount of realism. Notably, a knife or a gun isn't going to bring down an airplane - if the cockpit is not accessible. The TSA should be concentrating on watching for suspect behavior, scrubbing passenger lists, working with the FBI on what's going on, etc. Imagine, if they actually got rid of all the TSA agents you see and with the same budget hired well trained detectives? I still wouldn't be very pleased to be living in a nanny state, but at least it would actually be somewhat effective.

Remember the story about a homeless man who walked passed security at the STL airport and fell asleep on a parked plane? That's all you need to know about the incompetence of that organization. Why can't the county sheriff be in charge of the security at his/her airport? (They aren't on federal land) At least that way when you get hassled, you can get things changed or vote him out the next time around.

Roswell_Kid
June 20, 2010, 10:07 AM
rmfnla´s post (#9) brought back a memory.

A few years ago I flew a sold aircraft from Orange County up to Hayward, the buyer´s pick up point. I would fly back commercial from San Jose.

I had cleaned out the aircraft of course, but a final check at Hayward revealed that a small ¨guest overnighter¨kit containing things like a throwaway razor, new toothbrush and toothpaste, had worked its way up under the pilot´s seat. I tossed it into my backpack.

The TSA morons stopped the belt on my backpack and promptly confiscated that toothpaste and tossed it into a waste can. It was in a sealed box. I politely objected, and the "agents" responded with a condescending attitude.

Got home and felt around in the map case for a Garmin portable GPS that I thought might come in handy on a road trip, and discovered the loaded NAA .22 Mag mini revolver I kept as a last ditch survival tool. TSA had been so anal considering my evil tube of toothpaste they had let the map case go through without a glance. Their stupidity, my luck.

A year later they unboxed and broke a mountain bike I had checked. It had been professionally packed in a bike shipping box clearly printed with manufacturer logos. When it was finally released to me the box was in shreds, a shift lever broken and the $100 trip computer "lost." TSA´s justification: there was a place on the box where a logo for Arizona´s Dynamite mountain bike trail appeared.

I´m not kidding.

Patriotme
June 20, 2010, 10:32 AM
I read a story a couple of years ago that was in one of the UK papers. It seems that someone somehow left a .22 short round laying in the doorway outside of a business. The owners called the cops and they came out and almost treated it like it was a bomb. The comments from both the police and the workers were hilarious.
If I can dig up the article I'll post it.

Drail
June 20, 2010, 11:14 AM
Patriotme, I remember that story. I believe that similar cases have taken place here in the States when a single round of ammunition was found in a (gasp) school playground. The officials response was just like they had found a bomb big enough to take out the entire school. Imagine the drama CNN could inject into that. There was a thread a while back posted by a gentleman who works for a company that services the cash for coin machines that you see in most supermarkets now. He claimed the most common object that gets fed into and jams up the machines was a single round of .22 LR ammunition. Surely this would be the work of terrorists. But the one TSA story that clearly demonstrated how stupid these isiots are would have to be the case where they confiscated Jos Foss's Medal of Honor because they thought it might be used as a weapon (full dress medal, not the ribbon). What really angered Joe was the fact that they did not even know what the Medal of Honor was and that they were going to throw it in a trash can. You can't make this stuff up. We are in serious trouble when the President of the United States pins the Medal of Honor on a hero and then the TSA tries to throw it in a trash can. Wake up people.

xcgates
June 20, 2010, 11:53 AM
I thought it was bad when they made me throw out a pair of needle-nose pliers when I was 14. (It was after 9/11)

wishin
June 20, 2010, 01:36 PM
That's why they put erasers on pencils.

I made the Leatherman mistake at the Atlanta Airport a few years ago. The TSA folks spotted it, and since I had plenty of time before my flight I went out of the security area, found a potted plant at the terminal and buried it. Returned a week later from my trip and recovered the tool.

DRYHUMOR
June 20, 2010, 02:28 PM
Not recently, but I've flown with knives and ammo myself.

Everyone makes mistakes, but the hammer hits harder nowadays when ya do.

mbt2001
June 20, 2010, 02:38 PM
I don't think you should go to jail for being absent minded. The gun that the stewardess brought on the plane didn't hurt anyones, wasn't there for any malicious intention, everything is fine. I don't think she should be charged with anything. I don't have a problem with the OP.

Airport security should be just that, not LAW ENFORCEMENT. They are not there to enforce the law, but to secure the plane. See the difference??

leadcounsel
June 20, 2010, 02:44 PM
Sometimes you've just got to briefly surrender your rights to participate in the overall good and efficiency of the system.

No, you don't. That's why we have a Constitution - to remind us that when people say things like that, they are wrong. If the Founders wanted to restrict the 2A, they would have.


The bottom line is that an Airline is private property. Just like if you were to come to my house I could force you disarm, the Airlines can too. I am a Soldier and 100% support my oath to defend the US Constitution, which I believe is one of the most important documents ever created... however this is a private property issue not a 2A issue.

Drail
June 20, 2010, 05:44 PM
There's a litttle more going on here than just a private property issue.

rbohm
June 20, 2010, 08:10 PM
:cool:leadcouncil is right, sorry to say but the constitution does not apply to private individuals or private businesses. the constitution was designed to prevent government from making citizens into subjects. if the airlines want to ban gun from their planes, then so be it. the only things you can do is either live with it, take an air taxi, take the bus or train, drive, or charter a business plane to get you where you want to go. that way you dont have to deal with airport security. and while i too am all for law abiding citizens to carry concealed, in fact in my opinion if you get a concealed carry license in your state, then every other state should be required to honor that license, even california, new york, and illinois without a reciprocity agreement, just like they do a drivers license and automobile registration. but i also agree that there are times when the average person should not be carrying a weapon. in the courts, on commercial airplanes, and other similar places.

Drail
June 20, 2010, 09:39 PM
The airlines (a private corp.) are required to carry insurance (another private corp) to operate under licensing requirements by the U. S. Govt (not exactly a private corp. but it's getting closer every day). For many years the airlines did not have a problem with passengers carrying guns on an airliner. This was changed at the insistence of the airline's insurance carriers and legislation was passed into law making it ILLEGAL to carry a weapon on a plane. If you are caught carrying a weapon you will be arrested and charged and tried by the U. S. Govt., not the airlines. So who is setting policy and violating/not violating the U.S. Constitution here? The airlines may have a right to ban weapons but they do not have the authority to arrest and convict violaters. And somehow I don't believe if you are arrested for carrying a weapon onto an airliner the charge will be "tresspassing against a private corp. policy". The solution obviously would be to not do business with any private corp. that places its costs for liability and its deference to the insurance carriers wishes above any basic human rights recognized by our Constitution, but American citizens seem to be only too happy to surrender these rights so that they can stand in line and be overcharged and searched and screamed at because they want to "feel safe".

Col. Plink
June 20, 2010, 11:22 PM
This kind of treatment was supposed to have been prohibited BY the government, not supported by it. Ammo is NOT A WEAPON. Unbelievable...

BLACKHAWKNJ
June 20, 2010, 11:49 PM
I've always been fond of pens and pencils as a disguised weapon. Cynic that I am, I wonder how many items seized as "contraband" go home with one of these working "security".

JohnBT
June 21, 2010, 07:59 AM
Just before 9/11 I flew back from Costa Rica with some buddies after a fishing trip and carried a fillet knife in my bag. I didn't know it was there.

We had planned on checking our luggage, but after a lengthy delay due to a broken plane, we carried everything on the plane.

Flew from San Jose to Miami. Spent a couple of hours in free hotel rooms at the airport because the airline screwed up. Then onward from Miami to National in D.C.

We get to National and my buddy the lawyer says, "Can I get my 7-inch fillet knife that I slipped into the zippered pocket on the side of your suitcase?"

There it was, almost a foot long and they all missed it.

leadcounsel
June 21, 2010, 08:47 AM
Well, the other angle is that, right or wrong, for better or worse, the state government gives you the authority to carry a concealed weapon. There are restrictions on that (courts, schools, some states prohibit carry in bars, etc.). One restriction is carry into the airport secure areas. So - if you try to carry into the area of private property prohibited by state ccw law, they could enforce that violation, in addition to the federal laws of ccw into the secure and controlled areas.

As I've stated before I'm pro ccw, but you have to have reasonable restrictions to include courts and airplanes. Shootouts on airplanes would become commonplace, they would place everyone on the plane, many on the ground, and millions/billions of dollars in jeapardy, and would probably rarely end well. You just simply could not shoot a weapon safely on an airplane. They are crowded with people, and you can easily strike parts of the airplane that are necessary for function, air pressure, etc such as windows, fuselage, the engines, a pilot, the cockpit parts, fuel containers, etc.

Rshooter
June 21, 2010, 10:14 AM
Airport security.....:what:. Back when the National Guard patrolled the airports I asked one what harebrained individual had them using M-16's. He confided the guns were for show and were not loaded.

Six
June 21, 2010, 10:22 AM
As I've stated before I'm pro ccw, but you have to have reasonable restrictions

Problem is, one side wants to outright ban carrying guns. Nothing less than complete prohibition is acceptable.

So many on the other side have adopted the position that you should be allowed to carry everywhere. Any restriction is unacceptable.

There appears to be little room for agreement between the two extremes as common sense and reason will be seen as weakness that will start a slide down a slippery slope.

Deltaboy
June 21, 2010, 10:33 AM
I have not Flown since the late 1990's because I refuse to submit to the Feds and the Airlines nonsense! I remember dumping my pocket knife and ammo and folders in the tray at Love Field and in the LR AR Airport and never having a problem.

Drive or stay home if you can; I do feel for you guys that have to fly.

The Undertaker
June 21, 2010, 10:40 AM
I had a demilled round on my key chain, and Dallas TSA confiscated that.

$3.00 mistake that will not be repeated.

rondog
June 21, 2010, 12:50 PM
Not airline related, but I remember reading a post from a LEO on some gun forum. He'd gotten a call that some folks on vacation had discovered AN EXPLOSIVE DEVICE in their rental van! He got there, and the trembling legwetters showed him the shotgun shell rolling around under the back seat.

xcgates
June 21, 2010, 01:27 PM
^My school went on high alert when someone saw some .22LR stuff on the ground by the gym.

Oh, right, I should add they were old, expended casings.

Officers'Wife
June 21, 2010, 01:30 PM
He confided the guns were for show and were not loaded.

That frightens me as much as the tales of gov regulation run a muck. Sounds like an opp for some enterprising thug to steal an M16.

DRYHUMOR
June 21, 2010, 04:01 PM
До свидания и спасибо за всю рыбу !?! Fish? What kind?

Kirbyc
June 21, 2010, 04:31 PM
I've got a couple of goodies. A buddy of mine's dad had a P-38 can opener confiscated. He'd carried it since Korea.
I carried one of the little Swiss Army knives for years. On the way to the airport I thought to myself that I'd better leave it in the car. Remembered it again as I went throught the metal detector. You'd have thought it was a .44 mag the way they carried on.
As to what happens to the knives, last fall at the big Tulsa gun show a fellow had a table with THOUSANDS of small to not so small pocket knives. The sign said that they were from the TSA. And yes, I looked for mine.

sonier
June 21, 2010, 05:12 PM
flying planes is a international service provided for the public, if we choose to use this goverment given service then we follow there rules, If you have a problem with airport security then boycott it or get real, this thread has gotten off topic and i think if you want a thread war on airport security then make your own thread to get locked down, but dont lock the OPs thread because you are too lazy too start your own. Im withdrawing myself from this thread im sorry for getting this thread off topic in the first place.

leadcounsel
June 21, 2010, 09:05 PM
I have not Flown since the late 1990's because I refuse to submit to the Feds and the Airlines nonsense! I remember dumping my pocket knife and ammo and folders in the tray at Love Field and in the LR AR Airport and never having a problem.

Drive or stay home if you can; I do feel for you guys that have to fly.


While I generally agree with this person, and I always try to drive if I can, the country and world is a big marvelous place and you should see as much as you can experience. I've traveled about 100,000 miles in the last 2 years; much of that for work, but at least 1/3rd for personal reasons, and about 40,000 miles of that was in a car or van!

To get it back on topic, I'll say that while I was annoyed at the inconvenience, I was actually happy they spotted the ammo. Makes me feel like they are doing something.

sniknah
June 22, 2010, 12:43 AM
that was really stooopid dude! :fire:

Powerglide
June 22, 2010, 01:39 AM
Well we all make mistakes.Some though just keep making them, that tells ya something.As far as airport security, lol, its a joke for the price we pay.Profiling would be cheaper and lots more accurate, period.

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