Range Etiquette and Safety


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killchain
June 21, 2010, 12:06 AM
I attended an IPSC match today, and there were a couple of things I would like to mention... one is about range etiquette, and one is what I think is a glaring safety issue.

1) The range is hot. A shooter is currently shooting, and is being followed by an Range Officer. Other shooters are following him on the stage, mocking his movements (doing the Todd Jarrett) while he is firing! The range officer is doing nothing about it.

EDIT: I want to clarify. These people following the shooter are over the firing line, following the shooter. Within three feet of them, in most cases.

Seriously, folks. I understand you want to win. But do your mock up AFTER the current shooter is done shooting. That's just dangerous. What if the shooter trips over a sandbag and has an AD? What makes you think you're so special that you can break the rules, and endanger yourself and others just so you can shave a millisecond or two?

2) A younger shooter had an HD camera JB Welded to his ear protection. He was following every shooter when it was their stage time, recording their matches. And I mean following as in reference to item #1.

Not only is this rude, but I believe in half of the states recording without consent is illegal. I know it is in the state this was in (Washington State.) Took me four hours to figure out it was a camera, and I was wondering what it was. The recorder may like to record his matches so he can revise, but I know I'm not the only one who does not want to be recorded by someone I don't even know.

Does anyone else have a story or two they'd like to share as well?

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Creek Rat
June 21, 2010, 12:23 AM
By "mock" to you imitate the shooter or make jest of them? Either way I guess they should have stayed behind the line.


A camera glued to the head sounds pretty obvious to me, could the shooters not tell the kid to buzz off or was the filming a condition for participation?

jcwit
June 21, 2010, 12:42 AM
Was this range officer an NRA Certified/Trained Range Safety Officer? If so he needs to loose his Certification.

NukemJim
June 21, 2010, 12:42 AM
but I believe in half of the states recording without consent is illegal. I know it is in the state this was in (Washington State.)

I am not an expert on state by state recording law but to the best of my knowledge only 3 states restrict recording outside where there is no reasonable expectation of privacy, Illinois, Pennsylvania and Maryland. I was not aware Washington state had such a restriction. Is it the audio recording or the video recording that is illegal?

Curious

NukemJim

Sport45
June 21, 2010, 01:39 AM
1) The range is hot. A shooter is currently shooting, and is being followed by an Range Officer. Other shooters are following him on the stage, mocking his movements (doing the Todd Jarrett) while he is firing! The range officer is doing nothing about it.

If they were behind the muzzle, what's the problem? The way I see it if someone is moving and firing there really isn't a "safe" location if he trips and falls. He could just as easily rotate and wind up pointing 180 away from the berm. There may be an issue with etiquette, but I don't think they're in any more danger than any other spectator.

killchain
June 21, 2010, 01:44 AM
By "mock" to you imitate the shooter or make jest of them? Either way I guess they should have stayed behind the line.


A camera glued to the head sounds pretty obvious to me, could the shooters not tell the kid to buzz off or was the filming a condition for participation?

I mean "mock" as in pretending to run the course. Not in jest.

killchain
June 21, 2010, 01:47 AM
I am not an expert on state by state recording law but to the best of my knowledge only 3 states restrict recording outside where there is no reasonable expectation of privacy, Illinois, Pennsylvania and Maryland. I was not aware Washington state had such a restriction. Is it the audio recording or the video recording that is illegal?

Curious

NukemJim

As far as I understand it, it's kind of a muddy area what is considered a "recording" but it specifically says that both parties must consent, and the request must be on the media.

http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/washington/washington-recording-law

NukemJim
June 21, 2010, 09:03 AM
Muddy indeed! I see what you mean. case-specific factors, such as the subjective intention How do you prove a subjective intention if only one person was involved in making the recording?:confused:

However one section did stand out to me the reasonableness of their expectation that the conversation would be private, the location of the conversation, and whether third parties were present.
Again I do am not a lawyer nor am I an expert in WA laws (so if we do have a lawyer in Wash reading this thread PLEASE jump in or pm) but from my limited understanding of this type of situation (due to a past life as a medical photographer/videographer) that legally would make if difficult to initiate legal action against someone recording in that situation.

As always I could be wrong.

Now, just 'cause I think it is legal does not mean I like it.

If I might suggest however if you do not want to be recorded, politely ask the person not to record you. A very large percentage of people will stop if POLITELY asked. Consult with a WA state lawyer to be sure but I think that what he is doing is not illegal so you have to ask hence the polite suggestion. If he does not record, then cool:D.

If he does go to the officials and ask for assistance, ( I suggest one of the officals running the shoot, not the range officer running the stage he or she is busy running the stage). If they say "No" , then cool:D

If they say he can record then you can always make "interesting" comments and see if you can "encourage" a large tall member of your section to stand in front of him, not cool but can be fun :evil:


You might be interested in this post about using video glasses for training http://blog.joehuffman.org/2010/05/24/ASteelChallengeMatchFromTheEyesOfTheShooter.aspx

I hope the linky thing works I am not good at this.

We as a society are going to be seeing a LOT more of video recording of each other incuding at the matches and range so asking your match officials is probably a good idea.

Best wishes and good luck

NukemJim

Six
June 21, 2010, 09:06 AM
There may be an issue with etiquette, but I don't think they're in any more danger than any other spectator.

Except for when the shooter realizes he has enough ammo and time to go back and make up some shots on the first target array by the firing line.

Even keeping the muzzle pointed downrange, he can now back up and overtake another shooter who will end up downrange of the muzzle.


No one should go downrange until "Range is safe/clear" is given.


Until that point, the competitor may realize he forgot an array, and resume shooting.

Jumping Frog
June 21, 2010, 09:10 AM
As far as I understand it, it's kind of a muddy area what is considered a "recording" but it specifically says that both parties must consent, and the request must be on the media.

http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/washington/washington-recording-law
Not applicable here. The US Supreme Court has ruled that recording a person in public, where the person obviously has no expectation of privacy, is legal regardless of state law. Saw this in news commentary this weekend when they were discussing the Maryland motorcyclist-state police case. Their basic point is the Maryland case should be thrown out before it ever even goes to trial as the SCOTUS ruling is directly on point.

Sport45
June 21, 2010, 10:59 AM
Except for when the shooter realizes he has enough ammo and time to go back and make up some shots on the first target array by the firing line.

That makes sense. I didn't know enough about the sport to know that was allowed.

The range officer should definitely keep folks off the course.

NukemJim
June 21, 2010, 10:48 PM
Not applicable here. The US Supreme Court has ruled that recording a person in public, where the person obviously has no expectation of privacy, is legal regardless of state law.

Unless that is a brand new one I do not believe that ILL law is void (Though I would love for it to be so) I do not know about the other states.

Do you have a name or case # for this case you mention?

Best wishes
NukemJim

leadcounsel
June 21, 2010, 11:26 PM
I've been to a few matches and we are broken into small groups of say 5 or 6 shooters. Very professional but relaxed atmosphere of responsible adults. Other shooters would frequently follow, maybe 10 feet behind (or a safe distance depending on the course) the person doing the shooting, just to observe and 'feel' the course. There was never an issue nor do I take issue with that. Now if they are distracting the shooter, or coming close or in danger of being shot then that's obviously an issue. But the shooter is suppose to keep his weapon pointed downrange, so there's no danger.

As far as recording, the nutshell answer is that most states don't restrict recording in public where there is little or no expectation for privacy. Check with WA laws for specifics, but if you're in public you can be on camera/audio/video, etc.

If you have a specific issue, then just ask the guy to not record you... I personally record all of my shoots for a learning tool, and some for my buddies too. They all appreciate the pics/video.

Officers'Wife
June 21, 2010, 11:31 PM
Do you have a name or case # for this case you mention?

He's not referring to Katz is he?

Zak Smith
June 22, 2010, 12:51 AM
Was this the first IPSC match you've attended? Are you familiar with USPSA/IPSC safety rules and protocol?

It sounds like it by your choice of words and to be blunt you should become aware of the rules and procedures in place to ensure safety before you wantonly criticize a sport you're not familiar with.

There is no single static "firing line" in IPSC and 3Gun stages. Rules dictate that nobody goes in front of the shooter, and that the shooter does not break the 180 degree rule. There are other explicit rules about moving and shooting, and stage protocol and procedure. The RO following the shooter is not "downrange" - he is behind the shooter. It is very common for the RO and scorers to follow the shooter through the stage and there is nothing wrong with this from a safety standpoint as long as nobody goes past the shooter.

In short - they are not breaking the rules: you are factually incorrect.

Now on the point of excessive numbers of shooters, the RO would be prudent to limit the number of people on the stage to the number required for reset, and typically the "in the hole" (2nd next) has a final opportunity to walk through at that time, but this is a logistical suggestion not a safety requirement.

With respect to the recording, do you know if the people shooting were aware of it or consented to it-- did you ask the videographer or the competitors what the deal was?

danprkr
June 22, 2010, 08:48 AM
Don't know about IPSC matches, but I've never been in a dance contest where part of the entry wasn't waiving the rights to your image while you danced. They do this for promotional purposes of course, but they also sell a lot of video to us dancers so we can train for the next contest. So, he may have been doing something official. Like I said though I've never competed in any IPSC matches.

easyg
June 22, 2010, 09:53 AM
Not only is this rude, but I believe in half of the states recording without consent is illegal.
Audio recording might be illegal without consent.
But I doubt that video recording (minus the sound) is illegal.
After all, up in Washington don't all the ATMs have cameras like everywhere else?
Don't banks and stores have cameras like everywhere else?
Heck, even our hospitals have cameras monitoring the entrances, the halls, and the parking decks.
Are sports fans prohibited from bringing video recorders (which would have to include most cellphones) to sporting events like football, racing, hockey, basketball, baseball, etc...

Kaeto
June 22, 2010, 11:02 AM
Actually the sports event will kick you out if you try to record any part of it.

danprkr
June 22, 2010, 12:14 PM
Actually the sports event will kick you out if you try to record any part of it.

Same in the dance world unless you're the 'official' video person. Private individuals aren't allowed to video even themselves, but the official camera man is fine. That's how they make their money as a matter of fact. Selling the video to the dancers to use as training devices. Which is a great tool BTW, and I can't believe it would be useless in the shooting sports either.

ny32182
June 22, 2010, 12:25 PM
The SO and scorer follow the shooter in every match I've ever seen; if they are safe others are safe behind them as well. That would make it an ettiquite/club rule issue rather than a safety issue. I've never seen others follow close behind the scorer, but there would be no inherent safety issue in doing so... The SO has to set the pace and know the stage well enough to know if any rearward movement is required or possible, and be prepared for it.

If you don't want your shooting recorded for some undetermined reason (???) I don't think practical shooting is for you, as I've seldom been to a match even at the club level where there were not one or more people running video all the time, from hat-cams, cell phones, HD video cameras; you name it. It is one of the best training/comparative tools there is.

Kwanger
June 22, 2010, 12:54 PM
What Zak Smith said....in every IPSC match Ive been in, same thing happens. Your choice of the word 'mock' was also misleading - if people are clowning around and making fun of the shooter there would be an issue, but I have never seen that anywhere - you usually get a very good bunch of people at these events.

Regarding the video, as it is (I assume) a public event open to all who want to shoot, you lose the right to 'a reasonable expectation of privacy'; therefore, its not illegal. If it was bothering you, you could have asked the guy not to film you - I'm sure he would have obliged - like I said, I've never come across anyone other than good people at matches. Just my 2c.

Zak Smith
June 22, 2010, 12:55 PM
In something like 8 or 9 years of competition, I have never seen video or photography become a point of contention. Most people don't care and say something like, "Cool, send me the link!". From time to time, there might be a military or law enforcement person who doesn't want to be photographed. A short word with the person with the camera is all it takes.

Justin
June 23, 2010, 12:06 AM
I make it a point to only shoot video of people I know.

EddieNFL
June 23, 2010, 09:36 PM
No one should go downrange until "Range is safe/clear" is given.

We use a line of cones about 15 feet behind the nearest shooting position. Shooter, SO and scorer only until line is declared cold. You can do handstands behind the cones, if it trips your trigger.

RSABear
November 3, 2010, 04:31 AM
I politely want to shoot my mouth off.

Firstly, I am a TRO (Training RO), after participating for many years, I have over the last 2 years found myself with the timer in hand at club level shoots and to make matters official the club enrolled me into the RO training program. Changing my mindset form competitor to RO certainly takes some time to get used to.

The RO is the determining factor of what will be allowed or not allowed on the range. How he/she applies or interpreted the rules, is what will cause endless frustrations for shooters accustomed to RO’s which allow leniencies.

In my opinion, the “Range Etiquette” has to be defined as “Unsportsman’s like conduct” and I will give you my reasons from the IPSC Handgun Rules 2006 FINAL:

Rule 8.7.5. “No person is permitted to enter or move through a course of fire without the prior approval of a Range Officer assigned to that course of fire or the
Range Master.”

Rule 3.2.4 “competitors should be permitted to conduct an orderly inspection ("walkthrough") of the course of fire.”

Rule 8.3.3 "Range Is Clear" - “Competitors or Range Officials must not move forward of, or away from, the firing line or final shooting location until this declaration is given by the Range Officer. Once the declaration is made, officials and competitors may move forward to score, patch, reset targets etc.”

I have quoted the three rules which go hand-in-hand with the topic:

1. A competitor should not be allowed to conduct a walkthrough of the course of fire without the whole squad – to spend additional time on a stage making a game plan provides an extra advantage. This applies to any day of the match. What we have in our region on a 2 day match is that competitors in one Division will on day 1 shoot the match in another Division which will give then give them a considerable advantage the following day in their competing Division.
2. The RO should allow enough time for competitors to make a game plan, all competitors should get an equal opportunity and an equal time to do so. To allow a competitor to conduct a “walkthrough” while another competitor has “commenced the course of fire” is insane! While anyone can figure the safety aspect in the event of a dropped handgun, stumble, slip, skid, fall etc… it also provides the basis for “unsportsman’s like conduct”, by doing so the competitor is using the opportunity gain an extra advantage on the other competitors.
a. Should the above happen while I am the RO. I will stop the course of fire, issue a warning and order a reshoot.
b. Should the competitor try his luck I will DQ him/her from the match on Rule 10.6.1 – Failing to comply with instructions.
3. I call them “Range Walkers”, even at a club level shoot we have them…. We rely on competitors in the squad to help score, patch, reset targets and recover brass for those who reload. Everybody does his bit for his fellow competitor and for the sport. However, “Range Walkers” will deem them better than others and refuse to help or assist, but put their “focus” on winning the match. Again the RO takes charge: I issue a warning, if I don’t get joy I will simply ask the competitor to return to the club house and join a squad with similar standards – this normally ensures a happy squad were everybody shoots and works together in fair conditions.

Finally, on video filming the shooter. We have less legal issues here. In certain circumstances I will allow one person with the camera to follow me (not the shooter), it is done after we have confirmed the competitors shooting plan and the range setup allows for safe filming and safe angles of fire. If the shooter deviates or the camera man is not within 2 meters behind me, I stop the course of fire, my focus remains on the shooter and his actions not the camera man behind me, sometimes some good footage in the interest of the sport comes off the range. Video or audio recordings are not allowed in a score challenge or dispute regarding a Match DQ.

coloradokevin
November 3, 2010, 05:22 AM
In something like 8 or 9 years of competition, I have never seen video or photography become a point of contention. Most people don't care and say something like, "Cool, send me the link!". From time to time, there might be a military or law enforcement person who doesn't want to be photographed. A short word with the person with the camera is all it takes.

Additionally, I don't think there is anything illegal about recording a person in a public place where there is no reasonable expectation of privacy (despite what the OP may think). I don't have the case in hand at the moment, but I seem to recall that the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled on this very issue in the past (filming someone in public, that is). On a daily basis most of us are probably recorded on hundreds of cameras, most often without our knowledge!

Obviously safety issues are another matter entirely, and where the videographer stands during a stage may or may not present safety concerns, or be in violation of the rules of any given competition. But, I still believe they are within their legal rights to film someone.

As far as etiquete is concerned, it has been my experience that most shooters LIKE to be filmed during their USPSA/IPSC matches (even those of us in LE). I'm a police officer, and I usually squad-up with at least 4-5 other officers during local USPSA/IPSC matches. I love it when someone is willing to film my stages, because it gives me an opportunity to figure out where I did things correctly, and where I might have dropped the ball... In other words, it makes me a better competitor.

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