44mag velocity issue

I just loaded up some test loads of 44 magnum that consist of a Hornady 200g XTP bullet over 26.0g of Winchester 296, using large pistol (not magnum) primers. According to the data I have looked at large pistol primers should be OK by most sources, though Lyman lists a similar load using magnum primers.

I tested this ammo with a chronometer early this morning. The sun was up, but was on the horizon, and was not what I would call direct light.

I got very strange velocity numbers. The first two shots did not read at all, I think because I was in too shady of a place so I moved to where the light was brighter. Then, I got velocities that varied between about 750 fps and 1250 fps. I only fired about eight shots, and decided something was wrong that I would need to troubleshoot later, and I had to get to work.

Subjectively, the recoil seemed the same, whether it was a bullet that measured 750 fps or 1250 fps.


So...

Was this variability due to poor lighting over the chronometer?

Could it be because I didn't use magnum primers and got incomplete powder burn?

My understanding is that 296/110 requires magnum primers. I don't know if it would cause that much variation though.

1. H110/Win. 296 does not require magnum primers.

2. The muzzle of your gun may have been too near your chronograph. If the muzzle blast hits it and moves it, it will give you erroneous data.

I had the muzzle about 2 feet from the chronograph, which is about where I ususally test and havent had this problem before. I will back off a bit and see if it makes a difference.

H110 and W296 does require a magnum primer with 44mag in all of my manuals. Also if you shoot under an overcast sky, you may want to remove the diffusers on your Chrony

I usually put my chrony at 12 or 15 feet. I thought that was standard.

10 feet here.

H110 & W296 may require magnum primers, according to the books, but don't tell that to the thousands of rounds that I shot in my S&W 44 magnum with CCI 300 primers. They all went boom and were more accurate than me ...
I don't shoot in cold weather, so that may have made the difference....


Jimmy K

Yep the Eye is seeing the cloud of powder residue at 2 ft, I start at 10 ft.

Mag primers have never shown me much difference in my mild climate , but where it`s cold ???? Mag primers are a must !

What they ^ said. You're too close to the chrony; back off about 10-12 feet and try again.

Update...

Ok so I went back in full daylight, and retested, and am getting good consistent readings with my chrono... about 1400 fps, which is right where I hoped it would be. Interestingly, I tested with chrono both at 2 feet and 12 feet, and got the same numbers both times, so I think my issue this morning was bad light. But I will test from 10 - 12 feet from now on.

I also spoke to "Mike" at Hodgdon again about using Magnum primers, and he said for H110 and W296, you should always use a mag primer.

So now I guess I need to load some up with Magnum primers and retest. Do you think going to magnum primers will change the velocity?

Both bad light AND too close.

I have to put my chrony at 35' with the .300RUM and .257wbymag to get good consistent and accurate chrono readings due to muzzle blast. Not only does it read the shock wave, but also the vibration-shaking of the chronograph. When I started seeing 4,000+fps readings, I knew something was amiss. But then again, 3,500+fps readings with the .300RUM and 150gr bullets are the norm. Ditto the .257Wby and 100gr bullets and likewise the .22-250 with 40-55gr bullets. The 100gr+ charge weights from the .300RUM emits a considerable blast of gasses. Not a lot unlike the .50BMG.

Also, if light is at a low angle, it can blind the sensors. I've had to modify my diffusers for use at a public range I frequent due to the range facing South-southeast. Best is a north facing range. (in northern hemisphere).

Do you think going to magnum primers will change the velocity?


By a few FPS ....less than you'd think or have been told to believe!!

Go... do a test and report the difference back here ......

Jimmy K

JimmyK;
Indeed here in the "Sunny South" (read "hot and humid hell"), we can indeed get by with "standard" primers with H110/Win296. Week before last, the OAT guage (outside air temp. themometer) in my Cessna read 135degF. on the ramp at KLGC (LaGrange, Ga.)

However, take your gun and ammo, put them in the freezer over-night and then try the chronograph. Also, be sure to load the requisite 5% under the max listed load.

If using CCI primers, you'll be suprised !!! spith, poop, and pop come to mind. BTDT.

Then compare it to full charges with a Magnum primer.

An aquaintance thought the same as you did several years back. I recommended he use #2400 for a trip to AK where he was going to be taking a .44mag. He said nawh, regulars work just fine with the #296. Another aquaintaince (my brother) took him to the range one crisp fine Anchorage am in January on their way home from duty at Elmendorf AFB. He had two normal discharges, and one that tied up the gun due to unburned powder and a stuck bullet in the bore.Three light "whiffs" that did clear the chamber. Temp was a measly -27degF. Colder even than your deep-freezer as cold as it will go......

So, the powder mfg's have to take into consideration all possible uses of their products.

Do I need to retest with the chrono after I switch to magnum primers?

If you have unburnt powder, and you have sufficient crimp, then go with magnum primers. I use WLR and have no issues.

I have to move further away from the chrony with my 41 Mag Blackhawk than rifle when shooting H110 powder. I was getting erratic measurements when I was 10-12 ft.

Goose...

H110 & W296 may require magnum primers, according to the books, but don't tell that to the thousands of rounds that I shot in my S&W 44 magnum with CCI 300 primers. They all went boom and were more accurate than me ...
I don't shoot in cold weather, so that may have made the difference....

106 degrees on the shady side of the house last Wed. I understand the cold weather recommendations and I follow them. But in moderate temperatures >45 degrees, I don't think you'd be able to tell the difference between them and like I said only in mild weather.

Jimmy K

I also spoke to "Mike" at Hodgdon again about using Magnum primers, and he said for H110 and W296, you should always use a mag primer.



Same response I got from them a coupla years ago. Always figured they know more about THEIR powder than all the internet "experts" that claim they aren't needed. Since Magnum Primers are the same price, are no more difficult to get and install just as easily are regular primers, I see no real advantage to not using them........other than just to be different.

Do I need to retest with the chrono after I switch to magnum primers?

I would.

I've gathered a bit of data between CCI LP and LPM primers while tolerating the past primer shortage. It seems like the velocities are pretty close if I drop 5% off the charge weight to accommodate for the extra fire of the magnum primer. That might give you an idea of a safe starting point.

I never worked with H110 & W296 though.

-MW

According to the Hornady #7 manual, the recommended range of 44 mag loads for a 200 gr XTP using H110/W296 in a 7.5" Redhawk with COL 1.600 is:
Min 25.8 gr @ 1300 fps
Max 28.7 gr @ 1500 fps

You are already at the minimum.
H110/W296 should NOT be used at less than minimum loads.
I would not reduce the 26 gr powder charge in this situation, but just make a few with magnum primers and test the velocity/accuracy.

Hornady use Winchester WLP primers for their data. The WLP is rated for use in magnum or standard appplications.

Other items from my experience:
* Changing a load to magnum primers (being careful to test powder levels safely) often results in little change in average velocity and a noticeable reduction in the variation of velocity.
* My chrono gives much more consistent results if it is at least 15 feet from the muzzle, especially with magnum handguns. Lighting also matters. Near dawn or dusk are not times to get good measurements.
* If you want more flexibility in a magnum powder, try Viht N110. It is more expensive than H110, but delivers more velocity with less flash/boom and has the flexibility to be loaded down to less than nuclear levels.

Be Safe and Have Fun !
-steve

I thought I would provide an update. I loaded the same load (200g Hornady XTP over 26.0g H110/296), but this time with CCI Magnum Pistol Primers.

I tested velocity, and the cartridges loaded with magnum primers had an average velocity of 3 fps faster than those loaded with regular Large pistol primers.

Thanks for the results!

Jimmy K