[JohnKSa]

I participated as an instructor in a Boy Scout Merit Badge training class.

There were 11 shooters. In spite of approximately 8 hours of training, none of them qualified. Qualification involved shooting 5 consecutive groups of 5 rounds from a bench rest at 50 feet. The groups could be just over an inch center to center.

They failed primarily because none of them had any appreciable shooting experience prior to the class. I mean no experience with BB guns, not with pellet guns, not with .22 rifles, NOTHING!

What makes this even more amazing is that the class took place in what I would call suburban to rural North Texas.

I'm in my middle 30's and when I was the age of these kids, ALL of my friends had BB guns or pellet guns, and some of them had their own rifles and shotguns. By highschool, at least one of my schoolmates had a .357 revolver.

What this means to me is that my generation is not teaching their kids to shoot. Furthermore, it would appear that the traditional means of learning to shoot (airguns) are becoming rare with the advent of zero tolerance and political correctness. That means that what little the kids are being taught about guns is negative.

Remember that THIS was a class of kids whose parents had agreed to let them shoot rifles--not a bunch of kids whose parents were antis.

The more I think about this, the more I think we're seeing the last gasp of gun rights in the U.S. When my generation starts to die off that's the beginning of the end...

How's that for depressing. I've been brooding about it for a few weeks and I thought I would share. :(

[Greg L]

Sadly I agree with most of your comments :( .

One minor beacon of hope is that my son's Troop is CMP affiliated & has their own range (not that that will stop the relentless tide but...)

Greg

[Redlg155]

Sad that these kids didn't already know how to shoot.

Like many folks I also grew up running around the woods and shooting at targets of opportunity. I miss those days!

From a trainer standpoint, I've actually found that it was easier to train folks with little or no experience shooting. No bad habits to break really helps.

Good Shooting
Red

[ACP230]

I taught my kids gun safety at two, started them shooting air rifles at six, and .22s a few years later.

My older son started shooting matches with me at 13. We fired HP rifle matches and competed at the late, lamented Second Chance Bowling Pin Shoot together. We also hunted grouse, rabbits and deer together before he went off to college. Now that he's working six hours nearer, we are hunting together again.

My 11 year old missed Second Chance, but has been shooting e-mail .22 benchrest matches with me for the last two years. He wants to do more competitive shooting, and is waiting impatiently to hunt next year. He took Hunter Safety this spring and impressed the other kids in the class with his shooting ability.

My daughter didn't really take to shooting. But she has had hunter safety training and been out to the range a few times and is not likely to support any further restrictions on guns.

There are still a few young shooters in the pipeline.

[stv]

I earned my BSA Rifle Shooting merit badge at the age of 13 with a bolt action .22 LR, and I do remember the course and testing criteria. While none of us were exceptional shots at 50 feet (partly due to our young age and relative inexperience) most of us, with a decent amount of practice, were able to shoot 1" groups of 5 and thus qualify. The rifles we used were cheapish Marlins that were well used, which may have affected accuracy a bit.

It did help that we had a dedicated range at Scout camp, however. YMMV.

[clubsoda22]

I remember when i did BB rifles in cub scouts. Put each BB through the same hole. Then i quit cub scouts and took up shooting sports.

[HABU]

When I was a Scoutmaster, We gave the boys two evenings of training and took them to the trap and skeet club. Only 20% got thier shotgun merit badge by breaking 24/50 birds. Of course my son didn't dissapoint.:D

When I am an old curmudgeon, It's gonna be way worse than it is for the curmudgeon's of today.

[Bill Hook]

Also, it is hard to find ranges many places. When you can, paying for shooting time can cost some bucks. My parents didn't shoot or own guns and I'd have no way of getting any info about shooting or places to shoot otherwise. Boy Scouts was an exception, but we only got to shoot a couple times a year even then, and these were on overnights or at camp and not close to home.

The antis will win through a multi-pronged strategy: 1) make finding appropriate places to shoot difficult (and/or expensive), 2) instill fear about guns and gun owners, 3) punish/discourage those who show interest in firearms from an early age 4) misinterpret the Constitution and make laws contravening it.

[Jeff White]

It's that most kids that age don't have the patience it takes to shoot those groups. Ran into the same thing when I was Scoutmaster. We had a troop full of deer hunters, dove hunters, squirrel hunters etc. Most of the boys were pretty good shots, but for them to sit down and repaet the same actions enough time to shoot those groups was tough. Quite frankly by the 4th and 5th shot most of them were jerking the trigger or forgetting their breathing. Lets face it, that type of shooting isn't as exciting as hunting or the first person shooter video games they play.

I think that older boys do better, they appreciate the precision required to mee the standard. I don't think they aren't interested in shooting, I think that most are too young to appreciate precision slow fire.

Jeff

[ahenry]

I guess my exposure with scouting (as a scout) was a tad different but even if all that you say is completely correct for the entire nation (that this newest generation has no gun experience) thank goodness for organizations like the Boy Scouts of America. Lets face it, you just exposed 11 new guys to the sport, plus each of them is probably going to share the experience with at least everybody else in the troop plus their friends from outside of scouts. Hold the class again and you could probably get 11 new guys there. That’s pretty good numbers if you ask me.

[TarpleyG]

suburban to rural North Texas
You talking about McKinney, Allen, Frisco, et al here??? That isn't anywhere near "rural" anymore. When I was a kid, sure. All the yuppie's (for lack of a better term) moved up that way 10 or so years ago and the place hasn't been the same since.

GT

[whoami]

There were 11 shooters. In spite of approximately 8 hours of training, none of them qualified. Qualification involved shooting 5 consecutive groups of 5 rounds from a bench rest at 50 feet. The groups could be just over an inch center to center.

They failed primarily because none of them had any appreciable shooting experience prior to the class. I mean no experience with BB guns, not with pellet guns, not with .22 rifles, NOTHING!

Sounds like the first time I hit the rifle range at summer camp with my troop...though I was 12 at the time. Only one kid was putting up good groups, and he was 16 and had been shooting for some time. In our defense, though....this was at 50 yards, and not feet.

Then again......it was a 'training class', so I'm not sure why it's all that surprising. Some people simply don't have the time to cut so many hours out of the week, or the money to afford a nice bolt action/semi .22 rifle. Bread on the table, clothes on the backs, and books in the bags tend to come before that.

[Bob Locke]

I'm about to become the Pack Committee Chairman for my 8-year-old son's Cub Scout pack. We've already discussed giving them firearm safety training, and most of them have fired BB guns at the week-long day camp this past summer.

I agree with the comment about most kids this age (or up to early teens, in most cases) lacking the patience to shoot the required number of shots. I'm about to turn 35 (in January), and I can see there's a BIG difference in where the minds of these kids are compared to where I was at a similar age. Of course, I had a lot fewer things competing for my limited attention span 15-20 years ago, and it was even more so for you older folks.

I think with patience on our part, and proper encouragement, these kids will be just fine. But it's gonna take EFFORT, 'cause it won't happen overnight and the anti's who run the schools (for the most part) are NOT gonna help any.

[natedog]

Shotgun: 48/50

Rifle: I did it offhand, and still qualified, due to the younger boys whining that the rifle were to innacurate.

[bogie]

Uh....

More practice?

Were the rifles used capable of that degree of accuracy? Were you outdoors? Was the wind blowing "texas-style?" I've seen 1" hundred yard groups from $2,500 centerfire benchrest competition rifles...

Here's what you do... Take the rifles, and figure out which ones are most accurate. When the kids shoot for record, they use those rifles...

[Josh]

First off, Thank you for taking your time to teach our youngsters. I can think of very few uses of your time that would be better spent.

I can see how it would be frustrating to spend 8 hours training and have all your students fail. That sucks.

Please don't give up. Not on the kids, not on the cause.
They can't beat us it we refuse to give up.

Again thank you for trying to bring the youngins up right.

Josh

[usp_fan]

I'll be having the boys in my troop finish shooting for qualification this weekend. Same demographics but different results. We only let one boy shoot at a time. We've drilled sight picture, and then stacked the deck by using an old mossberg target rifle with peep sights.

Frankly, the merit badge standards have really come down over the last 2 revisions. These boys only needed about 3 practice targets with this rifle to begin getting the required groups.

I am convinced peep sights are the easiest for a new shooter to use.

We also reward those that are safe and that qualify by letting them shoot the ar15 and bisley in 45colt. Grins all around

Good luck,

--usp_fan

[Snorkel Bob]

usp_fan: be carefull when letting the boys shoot the other firearms. BSA has very strict standards about what they can and cannot shoot. National made that very clear to me on numerous occasions when inspecting my range. The only way around that is for the group to become a Venture crew, which has no restrictions on what they can shoot.

[keyhole]

We have had the scouts at our range a couple of times. I guess that they had attended a camp, where out of 100+ scouts, about 6 qualified. Our club had some really nice old CMP .22's for them to use. They all qualified while at the range, and made a return trip to enjoy the outdoors. We even fed them during one of our events, made it much better!

[Correia]

I'm a Cub Scout Master. But I get drafted to help the Boy Scouts shoot because I'm the resident gun nut.

I think Jeff is really right about one thing. Shooting a pretty little group isn't exactly the best activity for new shooters. It can be frustrating, and not very fun. Heck, I'm a competitive shooting addict and I hate shooting groups from a bench. The only time I ever do it is when I adjust my sites and need to check zero.

I've yet to see a jack rabbit stay in one place long enough to put 5 shots into them in the same spot. :p

And the only real failure comes from us, the adults, not the kids. It is our job to teach. So if the next generation can't shoot, that is our fault not theirs. Lets teach our own kids, than as many others as we can.

[STW]

On the bright side a group of scouts at our church (in SoCal) worked on the merit badge. Their instructor was a freshly retired Master Gunnery Sergeant with 32 years of service. They learned safety. The groups may not have been the best but they had enough fun that the same aged girls at the church lobbied to go shooting too. They had a good time too.:D

[Slabside]

One cause may be that we are less of a rural society now. I grew up in a very rural region where hunting was the norm. Nearly every young boy grew up hunting with their father and/or grandfather. We were expected to go hunting like everyone else. Personally, I enjoyed it. Made me feel as though it was a right of passage into manhood. Even though I grew up w/ guns, I still had to take a hunter safety course to get my own license when it was time. It was just all a part of the way it was.

These days, it seems populations have exploded in urban centers. Towns that were once apart, have grown together in many areas. W/ such huge city populations, many youngsters aren't getting the type of experience that many of us had yrs and yrs ago. Do I believe it is unfortunate, yes. That's where education comes into play. Unfortunately for that too, because the anti's have made it politically incorrect to even say the word gun, rifle, etc.

[Dr.Rob]

Marksmanship was the FIRST merit badge I ever earned.

Sad to say, not as many kids are as excited about the shooting sports as once were.

Take 'em back, try it again.

[Snorkel Bob]

Well most kids that I have seen are interested in the shooting sports, but their parents are not. Kids want to shoot mostly because of what they see on TV and video games. The biggest question I got asked over my years were, "Have you shot a Desert Eagle/50 cal Sniper rifle" I tried my best to kill any any premetitated thoughts of the shooting sports that they learned from tv. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didnt.

[Standing Wolf]

...my generation is not teaching their kids to shoot.

I'm afraid you're right. I rarely see kids younger than about 16 at the outdoor range I frequent from time to time.

[Cosmoline]

I have very fond memories of learning to shoot here:

http://pw1.netcom.com/~chazbot/t612/Photos/SummerCamp02/sc02_24.JPG

At Camp Baldwin, CPC, circa 1984. That pic is from a year or two ago, and by ginger those look like the same ancient mats they had us use for prone shooting :D

And this is where I did my mile swim:

http://scout.ao.com/Photos/1998.07/baldwin02.t.jpg

(tears welling)

[JohnKSa]

The scouts were from in/around Hunt County. Not exactly the sticks, but well outside the Metroplex. Suburban to Rural is a pretty accurate description.

I'm not saying that these kids should have been getting regular trips to the range to practice with a .22 rifle, I'm saying that I was surprised that they hadn't even been shooting airguns. That's a BIG change from when I was their age.

Shooting groups isn't all that fun, but then Merit Badges aren't necessarily about fun, they're about learning new skills and demonstrating those skills. Shooting groups is a good way to demonstrate shooting skill.

The ammo was match ammo, the guns were all easily capable of the accuracy required. We allowed all the boys to shoot at once, but we had enough instructor/helpers there to allow one scout per instructor/helper with a dedicated RSO and head instructor besides.

1" groups at 50 feet is not hard with an iron-sighted rifle from a benchrest. It's not even that hard from the standing position. There was wind, but it was primarily from behind and also fairly constant. The reason they didn't qualify was that they had no experience at all with shooting prior to the training, not because the requirements were too stringent or the equipment was inadequate or the conditions were too harsh.

There is a followup in the works.

This isn't sad because the scouts all failed, it's sad because it was clear that they have had no exposure to shooting other than what they see on TV.

[Cosmoline]

I had shot plenty of airguns as a kid before going to the BSA range, but I'm not sure how much that helped me. Maybe it did more than I realized. I don't remember having any difficulty shooting. The bolt action was odd to me at the time, but the process of aiming seemed self-evident. OTOH I remember being shocked that a group I got a full five inches to the NW of center would be circled and counted as though I was hitting center. It seemed like cheating to me.

[Bob Locke]

On a positive note: Glad to see how many THR folks are working with Scouts! :D

[geekWithA.45]

When I did the rifle/shotgun merit badge @ summer camp, (my first time with a real gun! whahoo!) about 10 out of 12 qualified. Only about half of us had any prior shooting experience. I came in 2nd place, right behind my buddy who'd been shooting since like 5 minutes after birth. :)


I'm still scratching my head...maybe something in the water? Chemtrail activity? Tinfoil hat failure?

Might be airguns, like you say, but I'm not sure that the old daisy really contributed all that much to the scene.

[XLMiguel]

A hearty "Thank you" and God bless all you Scout Masters. I was in Scouts from age 7 until I got a driver's license and was otherwise distracted.:rolleyes: We were very fortunate, or Scout Master was a Ranger SSgt. (pre-green beanie days:D), and we were well drilled in firearms safety and marksmanship (got to eat bugs and raw fish, too). Happy, happy days.

[Master Blaster]

I earned my badge at camp Ockanickin, in Bucks county PA, also shot at camp Rodney.

When I go to my club my daughter age 7 is the youngest I have seen there by about 5 years (.22 rimfire range and pellet gun range for now).

I didnt start shooting until I was 11 when My dad over my moms objections bought me a crossman 760 for my B-day, well I had shot those of friends near by.

After I got the 760 it was rifle practice every day in the backyard after school.

I was 12 when I passed the merit badge.

My children will be way past where I was in ability and experience when they are 12.

My son is 5 and in 3 years he will start the cubscouts, I figure to sign up as a merit badge counselor then.

BY the way.

Any OA out there WWW you know what I mean.:D

[Snorkel Bob]

Botherhood only
havent got Vigle yet. need to get active again

[Denver]

Correia,

"'the only real failure comes from us, the adults, not the kids. It is our job to teach. So if the next generation can't shoot, that is our fault not theirs. Lets teach our own kids, than as many others as we can."

YES!

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

Thanks to all Scoutmasters everywhere, first off. My wife is even Scoutmaster certified, no thanks to the lack of willing fathers when her kids were Scout age (before my time). Now her sons are 22 and 16, the oldest being the Scout in her family. Both my stepsons shoot with me, the younger being a better shot than his older brother, even with my .357Sig.

I qualified for my shooting merit badge while at Camp Pirtle in E. Texas while at summer camp in the early 70's. I also shot the high record at that time on the 50 yard course during that session and have the certificate to show that, somewhere.

I'm doing my part to teach those who want to learn.

Regards,
Rabbit.

[Caliburn]

No doubt kids don't have any practical shooting experience anymore since all the empty fields are now parking for Wal-Mart. But aren't they learning anything from shooting computer and video games? It's not the same thing, but it does have some transferability. Playing combat flight simulators can teach you a lot about leading your target when you can see where your tracers are going.