[*8*]

OK, I was pulled over by a Caliban CHP in San Clemente over some minor stuff, no license plates. I told the officer, it was a brand new truck with only a temp. dealer plates.

He asked the usual, driver license, etc. I handed him the paperwork plus my CCW. Here is where it gets sorta interesting, I ended up off the truck and he asked if I have my guns with me, I told him yes, IWB right side.

He pulled it out of the holster then asked if I have any more guns, I said yea, he told me to pull it out myself b/c it was in an odd spot. :D OK, he then placed the guns on the front seat of his cruiser. Next thing, he asked me again if I have any other guns?

He never mentioned the word weapons at any point, he kept saying if I have any other guns besides the two. Of course, I said, guns? no those are the only 2 I'm allowed to carry.

My question is a knife considered a Gun? :D I'm not implying anything but hey people carry pocket knives for various valid reasons.

He called in my DL and CCW, checked out fine. He then handed my guns back and was told to aboutface to reholster.

At this point, he was friendlier and was in a talking mood. He even said, "I hope you understand why I pulled you over", "The fact that you are driving with no plates", "You're a young guy driving a new Hummer".

Overall, it went pretty smoothly, save for some minor inconvenience.

Please share your most recent encounter with an LEO while packing heat.

[tomkatz]

I may be way off here, but if a LEO asked me to give him my drivers license, insurance paperwork, and registration, that is what I would give him. Is it required in some states to give your concealed carry permit? My friend and shooting partner is a county sheriff near here and he has told me he agrees with just giving what you are asked for......tom

[Valkman]

Some states it is required and in some it's not. Here in Nevada it's not but I'd rather tell him, myself.

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

In Utah it is no big deal. When they run the license, the CCW comes up. I have never been "disarmed." After all, we are the good guys, right? :D

[pax]

Tomkatz,

It is required in some states that the ccw holder notify the officer immediately. Not in Washington, though.

In Washington, probably 3/4s of the counties do not have the ccw database linked in with the driver's license database, so if you don't inform the LEO that you own a CPL if you are pulled over in those counties, no one will be the wiser and it won't be a big deal.

In the other 1/4 of Washington counties, the ccw database and the DL database are linked, so when the LEO goes to run your license he is going to know that you have a CPL and may be carrying. At that point, it is entirely possible that he'll be ticked you didn't tell him -- and in any case, his next question for you is going to be whether you are carrying and why you didn't tell him. Basically you'll raise his blood pressure and eyebrows.

I don't have the list of counties memorized and don't get pulled over but once in a blue moon anyway. If someone pulls me over, I'll tell 'em about the CPL. Seems less stressful in the long run.

In any case, if you opt not to tell and the officer runs your license and then tells you that you need to get out of your car, it is a really good idea to inform him at that time. You absolutely don't want him to find a gun on the pat down, no matter how upstanding a citizen you are.

pax

[Pendragon]

In many places, you are required to volunteer that you have a CCW if contacted by an LEO.

In CA - remarkably, you are not required to do this.

in CA, if you can get a CCW, you can take it many places you cannot in many shall issue states. Also - almost nobody will ever think of even looking to see if you are armed unless you are being cuffed or being stupid.

Since its so rare, they just have not worried about controlling what you do with it.

Also - CA has better knife laws than most states - Jim March has a page on it - I would link, but I am lazy and sleepy...

[sm]

My resident permit requires I inform LEO, My DL is flagged also. AR

I guess it's been a couple of weeks ago...Returning from down on the farm I had a dog run out in front of me, I had no choice but to hit it. Oncoming 18-wheeler on a two lane rd, BIG ditch and not much if any shoulder. Sheriff not far behind me. I had pulled across to a gravel lot to look for dog, its dark, one headlight is out.

I saw what happened , you Ok?
Yep
Hey, I know you, you taught in my daughter's CCW class, you've shot skeet with my brother :cool:
Yep, can't find the dog, daughter and brother OK?
I guess your packin', legal and all
Yep
I'll put a call in to Animal control,lets get you a headlight and some coffee

Small towns are great, I'm shooting the breeze, having coffee and pie and the auto parts guy installs the headlight and meets us and joins us at the diner. Sheriff did inform me the State boys had a unmarked cruiser up the way checking for speeders..." I think you know John too huh"...Yep.

I never showed anything, he just had to ask tho'. Waved at John doing 5 over the limit. Felt bad about the dog tho'.

[abaddon]

Pax,

Do you know about Pierce, King, and Snohomish Counties? That's where I spend most of my time.

Jeff

[Ryder]

Must notify here. I do that by handing over the permit with the DL and proof of insurance. I try to have them ready before I come to a stop.

I've been stopped a couple of times. Never been asked to disarm, show them the gun, if I had it on me, what kind it is, or where it was being kept. They hand back the permit immediately telling me thanks for showing them that but they don't need it.

[cool45auto]

Not required to in GA, but I handed over my permit with my license last time I got stopped and the officer thanked me for letting him know.

[Billmanweh]

here in TX, you must notify if you're actually carrying. I got pulled over last week and wasn't carrying and still gave the officer my CHL along with my license. seems like a courtesy as much as anything.

[Dave P]

That's awfully scary that the po-po disarms you, with a IWB?!? And this is after he sees your papers? Was this a young man (less experienced)?

[ScottsGT]

A Hummer and you only are carrying 2 guns !??!! Man your prioritys are all screwed up! You need to spend that cash on guns, not Hummers!!

BTW, Glad everything turn out alright. Just think, he could have pulled over the scumbag that might have just stolen your new pride and joy.

[norman74]

I don't think we're required to in Florida either, but I always do anyway. I have had lots of cops react differently. One of which took my guns, left them loaded, and when he drove away left them on the bedrail of my truck for me to retrieve in a Walmart parking lot. That got some strange looks.

[norman74]

BTW, Hummer or H2? Big difference.

[MuzzleBlast]

I'd rather tell him, myself.Yep. Cops don't like surprises. Know what I'm sayin'?

[mwithers72]

from talking with a local leos in my county they tell me that I dont have to tell them but they do hate to find out after they run your DL. Just seams smart to tell up front. lets say you reach for your wallet or purse and they get a flash of the gun. what do you think the leo will do...best guess is you will have a very bad experance. Heck most dont know you from adam.

[Skunkabilly]

The Sheriff's Dept instructed me to let the officer know that I have a CCW. I might as well, put them a little at ease since they know I volunteered for a background check at least s/he'll know I'm one of the good guys.

Pendragon is right about CA and CCW culture and laws. ;)

[TheOtherOne]

Yep. Cops don't like surprises. Know what I'm sayin'?I had a friend who was a cop tell me what he would do if he had someone pulled over and their license came up flagged for CCW but they hadn't mentioned anything. He said he would draw down on the car, have the occupant exit the vehicle, lay on the ground, etc. etc. and make sure there was no gun. I always thought he was a level headed guy, but I guess even with a CCW cops don't like surprise guns and that's understandable. It still made me think that I had made a mistake getting a permit. Before the permit I could carry (of course, I never did) without anyone ever knowing or having to worry about being in some government database as an armed citizen and thus a potential problem.

[tomkatz]

Thanks for all the info on this, I can see where it wouldn't hurt a thing(and might help) to give them your permit. I will discuss it further with my LEO buddy next time we shoot........tom

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

I am at a loss here. Why would an LEO fear an armed citizen? I have no duty to inform the officer at a traffic stop if I am armed.

Does the LEO really believe that a CCW holder is going to come out blazing after he already voluntarily pulled over for a minor traffic violation? Sounds paranoid to me.

If the LEO can not trust a Utah CCW holder which is complying with his instructions, then he needs to find a different line of work. More of the "us against them" attiitude.

[RVSinOK]

In Oklahoma, you have to notify the LEO only if you are carrying at that time. If I don't happen to be armed, I'll just give them the d/l and registration.

I think I agree with the "it's just a good idea" theory here, though. I haven't been in the situation (hopefully I won't!), but I think if I were legally carrying in a state that didn't require notification, I would let the LEO know anyhow. That way, no surprises!

[TheOtherOne]

If the LEO can not trust a Utah CCW holder which is complying with his instructions, then he needs to find a different line of work. More of the "us against them" attiitude.In Utah, you are suppose to notify the officer that you have a CCW (see here (http://bci.utah.gov/CFP/CFPFAQ/FAQLE.html)). That's why he said he would do that if they didn't tell him and then when running the license it came up "postive for weapons". :) It seemed like extreme measures to me too. I wish our CCW wasn't linked to our license. Concealed should mean concealed!

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

:uhoh:

Well, I guess that clears that one up.

BTW, I have my CCW and DL side-by-side, cause I do it anyway.

Still think it is paranoid.

[Car Knocker]

7.62FullMetalJacket,

From the Utah DPS FAQ site:

If I get stopped by a police officer, do I, as a permit holder, have to tell the officer I have a gun in my possession?

Absolutely! The requirement to identify yourself to a police officer as a permit holder in possession of a handgun is covered in Public Safety Rule R724-4-13.

If an officer finds or sees a gun on your person during their contact with you, and you have not identified yourself as a permit holder in legal possession of a firearm, the officer must assume you are carrying the gun illegally and will take defensive action. For the safety of all involved, it is better to immediately identify yourself to the officer as a permit holder in possession of a handgun. This action gives the officer some assurance they are most likely dealing with a law abiding citizen.

From the Utah Administrative Code:

R722-300-13 Requirement To Notify Peace Officer When Stopped

When a concealed firearm permit holder or certificate of qualification holder is stopped for questioning by a peace officer based on reasonable suspicion in accordance with Section 77-7-15 and the holder has a concealed firearm in his/her possession, the holder shall immediately advise the peace officer that he/she is a lawful holder and has a concealed firearm in his/her possession


Edited to add: Looks like "TheOtherOne" posted while I was cruising the code sites.

[Edward429451]

I took the Massad Ayoob approach once (exit & lock vehicle leaving weapon inside in plain view, skirting the terry search of grabbable area and maintaining officer safety and citizen safety). It worked but did not go over very well. She drew down on me and told me to get back in the vehicle, which I did not do. I slowly approached her with both hands visible asking what she wanted. She said she wanted me to get back in the vehicle. I said you must want to talk to me about something because you pulled me over so here I am.

She wanted to search the vehicle (denied), she wanted to retreive my "papers" from the glovebox (denied), she wouldn't let me retrieve the papers myself and got snotty and said she was going to write me up for no insurance, registration and emissions. I told her that all she had to do is run the plate and see that it would come back to my wife's name, and that the emissions sticker is on the windshield. Then she found a FTA for a traffic ticket on me so I suggested that perhaps this is a good time to declare my weapon to her. She said it's ok where its at and to leave it there. I suggested that since it was in plain view on the seat that it was not a good idea to leave it there cause it was very visible and prone to theft. Then she wanted to take the weapon into custody and I could go through the courts to get it back? I suggested she call my wife to come take the vehicle and secure the weapon to which she got very snotty and said something to the effect of "I'm not a public telephone service" to which I suggestethat since my wife was at home just a few blocks away that if she left the car & weapon there that I would consider that to be bad judgement on her part and unreasonable since it was a simple phone call and she did have a cell phone. If she wouldn't do that and the weapon was stolen that it would largely be her fault for being unreasonable on her part. She snatched the phone up.

At no time was I snotty or non polite. Very matter of fact and I believe I handled it very well and she was offended at my failure to roll over like a sheep, unquestioningly. I do not have a CCW permit and thought it was sound advice from Ayoob to be seperate from the weapon at the moment it was declared. Dunno how I could've handled it better and still retain some semblance of rights. But it still caused her to become PO'd. Emotionalism from a cop is very non professional.

[Edward429451]

Another time I was pulled over for speeding and my GM was on the dash of my pickup. I kept both hands dangling out the window and declared it immediately when they approached. They took me out of the truck and one of them went to the truck and retrieved it and came back asking why I carried it cocked, while pulling it out of the holster. I told him that if he's unfamilier with the weapon design that he would do good to not mess with it and maybe AD it. This man was a thinking man and did wisely put it back into the holster and snapped it back. I took my ticket and they put the weapon in the rear bed and told me not to retrieve it until they were gone.

I respect those guys. They took no offense at my words, treated me with respect and I returned the same.

[mp5man1]

Speaking as a Officer if someone told me they had one I would ask to see it. I then may even ask what he was carrying out of interest. Their would be no proning out or anything like that. I see no reason to hassle someone over what the have lawfully attained.

If you are carrying and it is visible then common sense would be to say something as the officer approached. Again as long as the CCW was good I would be fine with that. I wish there were more armed citizens. Oh and because someone told me, more then likely I would give them a break for whatever was my reason for contact in appreciation for their honesty.

[RVSinOK]

Wow, Edward! Sounds like treading on pretty thin ice to me!

No matter how polite you were, I would assume there was some reason that you were pulled over in the first place. I'm not an LEO, but I do know from experience that they do NOT like it when a person they have just pulled over jumps out of the car and approaches them!

I think that if I were in her shoes, I would pretty quickly make the assumption that you are hiding something, and likely something serious enough that you didn't want her to see it. That would make me even more suspicious......

Just my $0.02!

[mwithers72]

Does the LEO really believe that a CCW holder is going to come out blazing after he already voluntarily pulled over for a minor traffic violation? Sounds paranoid to me.


where in most cases what you say is true......but just because someone pulls over does not mean tht that person is not a threat. but look at this the way a LEO would.

when he/she pulls someone over they will record the stop with dispatch, then walk to the car. at this point the LEO dosent know who you are or what you a going to do.

Unless what you are saying is that after he has your DL and finds out you have a CCW and freaks out Then I would have to agree

[Lord Grey Boots]

I got caught speeding twice in the last 18 months (didn't realize what the limit was). Was carrying both times.

I said nothing about my CPL or carrying. Officers didn't ask. I signed for the deserved ticket and went about my way.

2nd time was carrying in a fanny pack. The trooper didn't say anything about it, but did drop the speed noted on the ticket to 5 over.

I'm a fan of don't tell, don't show, and don't give the officer a reason to be concerned. I'll answer only the questions asked (within reason).

[Sunray]

"You're a young guy driving a new Hummer". My immediate response would be, "So you pulled me over for no reason other than my apparent age? Does the term Age Discrimination come to mind?" That flatfoot apparently has never heard a young buck who works for a living and make more money that he does.

[Teufelhunden]

I had a friend who was a cop tell me what he would do if he had someone pulled over and their license came up flagged for CCW but they hadn't mentioned anything. He said he would draw down on the car, have the occupant exit the vehicle, lay on the ground, etc. etc. and make sure there was no gun.

If he's concerned about people he's got pulled over having guns and not declaring them, he'd better start felony stopping everyone he pulls over. Goes back to the whole concept of criminals breaking the law because they're criminals and not worrying about the 'legal' way to carry.


-Teuf

[Edward429451]

No matter how polite you were, I would assume there was some reason that you were pulled over in the first place. I'm not an LEO, but I do know from experience that they do NOT like it when a person they have just pulled over jumps out of the car and approaches them!

It's been awhile but it was something really minor. License plate light out or something like that. She was just fishing for an easy what can I find. You don't have to be a criminal to not want to be searched. Just because I didn't want to be searched doesn't mean that I had something criminal to hide.

I did not 'jump out and approach her' either. I came out real slow (and the yelling started and the gun came out) and walked around the front of my vehicle and then down the sidewalk towards her with my hands clearly visible half raised. Very non threatening.

[DMK]

Speaking as a Officer if someone told me they had one I would ask to see it. I never understood why an officer would ask to have the weapon removed from the holster. To me this creates a public safety problem.

I do not like handling loaded weapons unnecessarily. I load my pistol and put it in the holster. If it comes out, I'm either unloading it or firing it. There is also something extremely unnerving about handing somebody a loaded weapon. It goes against everything I was ever taught about gun safety since I was a child. Finally, there is no safe direction to point a loaded pistol when sitting in a vehicle on the side of the highway so most likely you will have to violate rule #2.

All in all a very unsafe situation. It's better to leave leave it in the holster and ask to see the hands instead.

In NC, declaration is required. I have no problem with that (they know anyway) as long as the gun stays safely where it is.

[Zundfolge]

I don't believe that Colorado requires one to tell a police officer you're CCWing, but I've heard too many stories of CCW holders getting out of tickets once the cop knows they are one of the "good guys" (much like fellow LEOs get out of tickets) so I'd tell even though I'm not required. :neener:

[AZLibertarian]

One small point, and one question...

Here in AZ, you must declare that you're carrying when stopped by a LEO. It sounds smart to me, anyhow, but that's JMO. However, I think it does make a difference in how you tell the LEO you're carrying

Version 1: "I'm carrying a gun and I have a CCW for it."
Version 2: "I have a permit for a concealed gun, and it's located IWB at 4 o'clock."

In the first version, the officer might not get past "I have a gun", before all hell breaks loose. Use version 2, or words to that effect.

Question for LEOs or whoever else has experience here: What does one do as a passenger in a car that's been stopped by a LEO? Announce up front as in version 2 above? Say nothing because nothing is required?

[4 eyed six shooter]

As a former and glad to be retired LEO, I can tell you what my feelings on CCW are. If a person that I stop has a CCW, I am much more at ease. I know that that person has gone thru a background check and is not a felon. This did not mean that I totally relaxed, but the person was treated with respect for going thru the process of getting their CCW. I know that they are most likely a very responsable person and would more than likely back me up in a bad situation if I needed help.
They are also someone who I respect because they are a person who is willing to be responsable for themselves and their own safety. Not some damn Sheepeople.
If stopped and you are legally CCW, Turn off your engine, if it is at night, turn the interior lights on, Roll the window down, place your hands on the steering wheel or thru the steering wheel on the dash. Tell other passengers to keep their hands in plain sight and not make any sudden movements. Tell the officer that you have a current CCW and have a firearm on you or in your vehicle. Tell them where the gun is. Ask them what they would like you do do. Do not make any fast movements such as reaching into the glovebox for your paperwork or license. This shows the officer that you respect him or her and will help to put the officer at ease.
Some officers will still be idiots, mostly the young ones who think that they are the only one's who should have firearms. If I stopped you and you had a CCW, you were more likely not to get a ticket from me. If an officer is rude about the fact that you are CCW and treats you badly, go to the station and file a complaint. The officers safety is importent, but the fact that you have complied with the law, are not a felon and have showed that you are a responsable person should be taken into consideration by the officer. If you do as I recommended, the officer would have a hard time defending unprofessional actions on his part. Respect is something that has to be earned. Both you and the officer must do your part to earn each others respect.
John K

[tetleyb]

I did not 'jump out and approach her' either. I came out real slow (and the yelling started and the gun came out) and walked around the front of my vehicle and then down the sidewalk towards her with my hands clearly visible half raised. Very non threatening.

The mere fact you were not complying with, and I might add LAWFUL orders, WAS threatening. In my personal/professional opinion, you got lucky, REAL lucky.

[mp5man1]

I guess I should have explained more clearly. I would ask to see the permit. If he has the permit then having the gun is not a problem at least not for me. People tell me the have a DL all the time, it dosent mean they really do. As long as the person has a CCW then I don't care other then being a person who likes handguns and may ask out of interest to see it and I would explain that.

If there were a disturbance or some other reason which I would need to see the weapon then having a CCW wouldn’t mater. The same rule would apply to a LEO. Take a restraining order for instance from domestic violence. Some orders require you to hand in your firearms. I think that sucks but LEOs don't make the rules. Most of us are pro 2nd amendment and don’t like the idea of taking firearms from citizens who have not broke the law. I think that for some reason some people think that we do or that we want to have some level of superiority over a non LEO when it comes to firearms and for me it’s not the truth. Most of my partners feel the same; at least I hope they do. I hope that who ever reads this sees the spirit behind it rather then thinking that we are looking to get into their business. All most LEOs want is to finish the day and go home.

I also know of 2 cases and I am sure there are more of armed citizens saving officers who were held at gun point. I am in favor of a armed citizen who is not a criminal.

[Thumper]

Some of the posts here seem a little...contrarian.

In my experience, a CHL here in Texas pretty much renders you immune from moving violations.

[Gordon Fink]

Why stop drivers for minor traffic violations at all? Why not just mail them citations?

All the concern for “officer safety” is somewhat disingenuous.

~G. Fink

[tetleyb]

Why stop drivers for minor traffic violations at all? Why not just mail them citations?

How do you prove who was driving the car???

[Gordon Fink]

And an officer talking to an alleged driver makes the difference?

~G. Fink

[Erik]

Please explain how it does not.

[Edward429451]

The mere fact you were not complying with, and I might add LAWFUL orders, WAS threatening. In my personal/professional opinion, you got lucky, REAL lucky.

Point well taken about being lucky. With all the police shootings nowadays any encounter with police where you aren't shot is a lucky day. I knew I wasn't a threat to the officer and was in fact taking steps to secure the officers peace of mind and safety as well as my own property rights. It is a very fine line and a dangerous situation and don't think that I don't know that. However stupid my actions may have seemed, there was an intent of good will to all involved even though she may not have found that out until after shooting me.

Would you go home feeling bad if you thought your traffic stop was jumping out to attack you and you shot him just to find out that he had locked himself away from his weapon and could not have been a threat to you?

With all due respect the lawful orders statement is debatable. You can't reasonably order me to stay in my vehicle just so you can terry search. I see nothing threatening about exiting one's vehicle to speak with an officer when they pull you over for traffic. If I do not 'rush' you, but spread my fingers and arms and slowly turn away from you, what threat am I posing? If you're worried about your safety, stay behind cover and order me to the ground to be frisked. I, having acheived my goal of putting a lock between me and you and my weapon, will comply. Terry frisk my person for your safety and then respect my property.

This is not a disrespect to a thinking officer. Only a paranoid officer would shoot me at that point. The administrative rules of terry are abused against citizens and this is merely a citizen walking the fine line of the last shred of implied rights that we do have. More of a manuever against the administration than a disrespect or threat to the officer. I cannot in good conscience 'sheepily' let the administration roll over me with my full cooperation by consenting to every thing they say. Constitutional hardball may get me killed one day. So far I've been faring better playing it. Go figure.

[Billmanweh]

problem is that YOU knowing you aren't a threat isn't good enough. if a police officer asks you to get back in your car and you refuse to comply and start approaching the officer, you are out of control. I think it's perfectly reasonable for a police officer to need to get the situation under his control when he makes a traffic stop.

it seems that your clear prejudice against law enforcement may be affecting your judgment. I don't think you are lucky to have not been shot, but if law enforcement can't get you under control verbally, then at some point they may reasonably need to take the next step.

[Billmanweh]

In my experience, a CHL here in Texas pretty much renders you immune from moving violations.


in my experience, it won't help if you're doing 48 in a 30

doh!

[tetleyb]

Edward,

With all do respect, your listening to Massad Ayoob and your playing a VERY dangerous game. Mr Ayoob's opinion, with alot of professional firearms trainers and law enforcement officers, isn't worth the paper its printed on. You will loose and it will cost you dearly. It has nothing to do with a "terry frisk." It is obvious, by your posts, your actually very ignorant to what is the real laws, etc.

The United States Supreme Court, the SUPREME law of the land, has said I can, as a peace officer on a traffic stop, order you to stay in the car and/or get out of the car. This holds true for passengers as well as the driver. And, by not following said lawful and, I repeat, LAWFUL orders of a peace officer (remember the supreme court has said so; therefore who do you appeal too?), your committing a crime.

It doesn't matter about "shooting" you. What matters is other uses of force, etc. Read: Getting the you know what kicked out of you.

I will tell you this. Had you done what you did where I work, as a police officer, you probably would have found yourself in the hospital, and then enroute to our jail. Your car would have been towed, with broken windows to get the gun, and you would have been charged with possession of a loaded firearm in public and for resisting arrest.

Play all of the RKBA and all of the other games you want. However, again, you will loose. Those are the facts of life; those are the laws.

And an officer talking to an alleged driver makes the difference?

Yes it does. You can verify who the driver is and therefore issue a citation the proper person. If said person does not and cannot provide satisfactory proof of identification (satisfactory to the peace officer making the stop, not YOUR satisfaction) you will go to jail.

[Edward429451]

It's not a prejudice against Law Enforcement, it's a bias to Rights! The administration has pitted us against one another judicially and 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th make an excercise necessary if I am to have any hope of protection from the legislative wiles of modern abuse, err enforcement.

I don't always exit the vehicle. I did that time. I must've walked the fine line good enough cause I wasn't shot and got no new charges or tickets. Very odd and disheartening that the very basis of the country is such an offensive trigger to officers of the law. It shouldn't be.

[Billmanweh]

With all the police shootings nowadays any encounter with police where you aren't shot is a lucky day


sorry, but that's incredibly prejudiced against law enforcement

[Edward429451]

So what if it is? Is it against the law to not like direction the law enforcement is taking in this country? Do I have to like it?

Should I report for my lethal injection because I have independant opinions?:rolleyes:

[4 eyed six shooter]

I would just to add to the above. Edward, most police officers are not the storm troopers that you make them out to be. There are exceptions, and I for one do not agree with some of the policys and things that are done in law enforcement. As to staying inside of your vehicle when directed to do so by an officer, short of possibly shooting at me from inside of a car, I have never been attacked by someone who has stayed in their car during a traffic stop.( Trying to get someone who you are taking into custody out of a car is a different story.) I have been attacked or attempts have been made to attack me more times than I have fingers and toes to count by people who have exited their car on a routine traffic stop. A person who exits their vehicle and does not comply with a officers orders will always be viewed as a threat. It is not that the officer is trying to be a hard or push you around and violate any of your rights. It is a matter of officer safety. In the area I worked in, on a hot summer night you could expect to go to the ground with 2 to 4 people every night. Not because I was a hard ??? cop, because they were twisted out of their minds on drugs or booze. As a police officer there is no such thing as second place, you always have to win. You cannot afford to be injured or killed. You want to go home to your wife and kids every night. You may not have had any intentions of being a threat to the officer, but your actions were viewed as a threat from the prior experience of the officer. Most officers are good people just trying to do their job the best that thy can. There are some bad apples as there is in any profession, but they are a very small minority. It's kind of like being in a war. A person can tell you what it was like to be in fire fights, just barely escaping with their life. But unless you have been there, there is no way that you can understand what it was truely like.
Respecting an officer by doing what he or she says( with a very few exceptions) will earn you respect and professional treatment from the officer. Police officers do not always agree with laws, but we are charged with enforcing them. Sometimes officers can decide to arrest or not arrest, other times they must make the arrest. Many people do not like being told what to do, just try to realize that if an officer tells you to do or not do something, there is most likely a very good reason behind the request.
I am retired now, and glad to be retired. Police officers have to walk a very thin line. You are damned if you do and damned if you don't. My hat is off to all officers who are in the profession. It seems to only get tougher as time goes along.
My best to all, John K

[Pendragon]

Man your prioritys are all screwed up! You need to spend that cash on guns, not Hummers!!
:evil:

You are a little crazy - but you know it.

I think you are knowingly engaging in a risky behavior because you want to uphold your rights.

I applaud you.

I am not certain I would do what you did, but I understand it.


I used to get pulled over almost weekly when I was around 18-20. Never got a ticket - I was told once I had a car similar to a local hooligan.

I learned real fast that pulling over quickly and safely, turning on the light, cutting the engine and hands at 10 and 2 gets you a lot better attitude from the local contabulary.

They mostly just looked to see if I was on a substance or obviously a BG - then let me go.

It may sound sucky, but I actually found it very good practice for dealing with LEOs - I later talked myself out of a ticket when I was doing over 120mph (he did not clock me but was doing his darndest to get a confession :D) I also talked my way out of a left turn from the middle lane on a Friday night in downtown Sacramento.

Mostly I just try to talk to the cop like he is a regular guy and try to get him to see me as a likeable regular guy in no way deserving of his further attention - so far so good.

Oh - the last ticket I got was a speeding ticket - but honestly, I was super glad I did not get arrested for reckless driving or racing - danged American V8 always talking to me - telling me to go too fast :neener:

[Billmanweh]

So what if it is? Is it against the law to not like direction the law enforcement is taking in this country? Do I have to like it?

I wrote earlier that your prejudice against law enforcement was possibly clouding your judgment on how to respond to a simple traffic stop. You said that it wasn't prejudice at all.

But this has nothing to do with opinions. It's just safer for you and the officer if you stay in your car. But you already knew that. It sounds like you want to push it until you get the crapped kicked out of you. I hope that works out for you...

:D

[Edward429451]

Appreciate the insight, 4 eyed six shooter. Responses like yours can actually help. What a joy to hear a response that takes no offense but addresses the issue in such a way that understanding is encouraged instead of stonewalled with offense.:)

[uglymofo]

Edward,

In my opinion and experience, (which is only from all the ride-alongs I've been on) your conduct and 'Bill of Rights' attitude got you in 'trouble' with that woman officer. Male or female, the thing most cops dislike most is losing control of a situation. That someone will "passively be aggressive" by disobeying an instruction and then continue to "walk, talk and explain" while not following instructions puts them on an edge of adrenalin they just don't like. It's not the rush of excitement and power that they signed up for, it's the adrenalin of fear. Your rights, from their prospective in those kind of circumstances, rank second to their sense of personal safety and security. It's a fine line, and sometimes when the things escalate, even if it's just in their minds, the snowball builds momentum on its' own and the situation feeds itself from both parties' conduct.

I've been a ride-along on a couple felony stops; we knew going in that this was for my friend (the cop) an unlucky circumstance (in a bureaucratic sense) to have a John Q. Citizen along on the stop; we also both knew he was lucky I was there because (especially the second time) I'd already proven my coolheadedness and worth in a very hostile situation, and the situation dicated he was better off with a "partner". None of that changes the fact that the adrenalin was just as high for him had he been alone; I was just as much an "unknown" liability. Later, he said exactly what I'm saying to you; up to a point, the unknown is exciting; past that, one has to deal with the 'felony-dangerous' unknown, and sometimes, by oneself.

I've also been stopped once carrying CCW illegally. To make the story short, I got caught getting out of my car and my gun printed. A cop pulled into the parking space behind me and demanded I stand up, move across the sidewalk and 'assume the position' without turning around. I'd already heard the shotgun rack up. I kept cool; I talked my way out of it and he took my gun. When NICS came back clean, HE needed a smoke, so we had one. I then went to the bank (the building I was leaning on:o ) and came back out when I was through. He gave me my gun back less the mag and bullets, and said "go straight home". Evaluating the encounter, I think he was very professional in his 'stop' conduct. Obviously I didn't give him any lip with the 12ga on me. But his remarks were very much the same as my friend's; he was on that edge of the rush, having gotten the drop on me from behind was little comfort, he still had the entire location and scenario to absorb and define (it was lunchtime and we were right in the middle of downtown). It's damn little solace that "things are working out" as they unfold, when that much is an unknown.

[Wildalaska]

Cop pulls me over, its yes sir, no sir, whatever you like sir.

Ya want my gun, here it is sir. You dont know who I am and I want to make sure that this encounter is safe and healthy for the both of us.

But, treat me with anyhting less than utter respect and you will be doing depositions and paperwork for the next 5 years.

WildsqueekywheelAlaska

[Erik]

Edward,
While it is the norm in some locals for drivers to exit the vehicle on a traffic stop Colorado is not one of them. It is a dangerous practice, all things considered, which is why most locals frown on the practice. As for disobeying lawful orders for the sake of proving some point, believe me, any point that you're trying to make will be lost in the realities of the moment. Realities which one way or the other will lead to a loss on your part.

Just something to think about...

[Erik]

"Cop pulls me over, its yes sir, no sir, whatever you like sir."

Hell I'm IN law enforcement and this typifies my behavior.

[Wildalaska]

Hell I'm IN law enforcement and this typifies my behavior

Well they always say an armed society is a polite society.

WildwhoistheyanywayAlaska

[Ryder]

As I said before we must inform here but that is only if we are carrying a firearm. There is no obligation to report that we are permit holders when we are not carrying a gun. Even if we were carrying and forgot to inform it is only a misdemeanor. This failure to notify has to occurr two or maybe even three times before the permit can be suspended.

It differs from state to state but around these parts I doubt it would be an acceptable reaction for the officer to act as though his life in danger from such a thing.

[twoblink]

Let me tell ya about TX..

Buddy and I, in his pickup, got pulled over for something, can't remember what.. asked if we had guns in the truck (This _IS_ TX right??) Of course. Buddy had a rifle in the back.. Officer ended up saying he'd have to check it out, and proceeded to what we assumed was to check if the gun was stolen, but instead, he started playing with it. Then asked my buddy "How does it shoot? My brother's got one, and it's got a small rattle we can't find.. How's the accuracy?" etc... we were pulled over for about 30 minutes while he questioned my friend in length about the gun performance.. And then decided he might have to get one for himself.. And didn't even tell us the reason we got pulled over..

That is SOOOO TX..

[Edward429451]

It's a fine line, and sometimes when the things escalate, even if it's just in their minds, the snowball builds momentum on its' own and the situation feeds itself from both parties' conduct.

Maybe I've just had the bad luck of running into more of the storm trooper types than nice guys. My experiance with them has been that the more polite and cooperative I am the more tickets and charges I get out of it.

I'm clean cut, polite and softspoken. Maybe they see me as an easy mark? No way would I get aggressive with a cop on the street. To attempt to politely invoke ones rights should not be viewed as aggression. I don't believe I should have to immediately waive all my rights just cuz a uniform pulls in behind me. Where's the logic in that? So I wont get shot? Thats intimidation and I'm one of the stupid ones who doesn't respond well to subtle threats. That sets my adreneline pumping. Fight or flight.

Blame my elementery school history teacher who taught me that I am above the law. This is not how America is supposed to be run. So where does that leave us? Citizen attempts to invoke rights so take the next reasonable step and shoot him to be on the safe side. Good one. Maybe I should move to TX!

Blind respect for the law is whats wrong with this country. You have to be able to question authority or there is nothing left but genocide & the police state.

[TheOtherOne]

If I was a police officer, I would make good use of the taser. 10,000 volts to ensure my safety on every traffic stop. I would turn the dash cam off and trade tickets for a good tasering. Punk kids, middle aged men, little old ladies. I would need one that shoots prongs for those that get out of their car. Nobody gets special treatment. I would make a good officer of the peace.

[Edward429451]

Punk kids, middle aged men, little old ladies

So basically, everybody?:D

I hear the higher voltage ones are better than expresso. I could use a jolt right now!:D

[Billmanweh]

I would hardly look around and say that what is wrong with this country is too much respect for the law, blind or otherwise.

Just a thought, but you MIGHT have some issues with authority/control.

LOL

[Gordon Fink]

Please explain how it does not.

Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. An officer seeing and even conversing with an alleged driver is really little more reliable (and vastly less safe) than merely issuing a citation by mail to the registered owner of the vehicle in question. Furthermore, the officer must also show up for any court appearances to testify to the identity of the alleged driver.

With mailed citations, most violators would just pay the fines. Those who care about their rights will still show up at court and win their cases at about the same rates they do now. Police officers, meanwhile, wouldn’t be getting killed by drug dealers with burned out taillights.


[An officer] can verify who the driver is and therefore issue a citation the proper person. If said person does not and cannot provide satisfactory proof of identification (satisfactory to the peace officer making the stop, not YOUR satisfaction) you will go to jail.

This confirms my suspicion that minor traffic stops are really just unconstitutional fishing expeditions for other “crimes.” Why risk officers’ lives over the chance of finding some small amount of an “illegal” substance?

Now, for serious traffic violations (i.e., reckless/intoxicated driving) or suspect vehicles, the police should make stops and arrests where appropriate. Anything else risks both officer and driver safety unnecessarily and erodes our remaining freedom.

~G. Fink

[Erik]

LEOs initiating contact are not eye witnesses in the sense you seem to be illuding to.

There is quite a bit of difference in the reliabilty of an officer who has initiated contact with a given individual occupying a given vehicle, and a passer-by who merely glances over in mild curiosity at seeing a traffic stop.

To begin with, identification is positively made, checks are run, the individual is cleared or not as appropriate, all of which results in date/time records, which are admissible in court along with the officer's testimony. That covers all but the most unusual cases of identity theft, for the most part.

Cannot produce identification to the satisfaction of the officer? Then at the least your driving without a license. At best your attempting to hide the fact you have multiple felony warrants. Regardless of the reason, the contact has evolved to something more than a simple traffic stop. (Not to suggest anything other than the fact that it is no longer as simple as contacting, IDing, and either citing or warning the driver.) At least in the short term.

As for why traffic stops are initiated, it has everything to do with the fact that it is well documented that amount of traffic enforcment directly impacts the number of deaths and injury accidents on our roads and highways. It falls neatly under the guise of protecting and serving, as well as law enforcement.

[Edward429451]

Just a thought, but you MIGHT have some issues with authority/control.

Ya' think?:D :D Seriously though, if most of them didn't treat me like guilty until proven innocent, I might not have.

As far as the mailed citation thing goes, that would be a violation of due process. I beat a few of those type citations up in Ft. Collins when I lived there.

[DF357]

"I beat a few of those type citations up in Ft. Collins when I lived there"

That statement with others through out the thread indicated you've had MANY run ins with LEOs. Just how many times have you been stopped and/or cited?

[Gordon Fink]

There is quite a bit of difference in the reliabilty of an officer who has initiated contact with a given individual occupying a given vehicle, and a passer-by who merely glances over in mild curiosity at seeing a traffic stop.

And in court, the officer will be able to clearly remember the face of the driver he stopped at 2:00 A.M. on a dark road three months ago? Of course, because the police are more reliable than common citizens.


Cannot produce identification to the satisfaction of the officer? Then at the least your driving without a license. At best your attempting to hide the fact you have multiple felony warrants. Regardless of the reason, the contact has evolved to something more than a simple traffic stop.…

Ah, yes … We’re back to the “What if he really has more than just a burned-out taillight!” argument. What else can we get this citizen for?


As for why traffic stops are initiated, it has everything to do with the fact that it is well documented that amount of traffic enforcment directly impacts the number of deaths and injury accidents on our roads and highways.…

Mailed citations would accomplish the same thing, if minor violations were actually related to traffic accidents. No one disputes the effectiveness of parking citations.…

Of course, this discussion will be moot once the mandatory checkpoints go up. :(

~G. Fink

[Edward429451]

That statement with others through out the thread indicated you've had MANY run ins with LEOs. Just how many times have you been stopped and/or cited?

:D

Probably 25 times in the last 10 years or so. Mostly speed infractions. Sometimes I can go a year or two without getting stopped and other times it seems like I'm on a binge. At one point I got like 6 tickets in one year and got down to only one point left on my license. I've been learning to slow down but sometimes that speedometer sneaks up on me. I'm back down to normal insurance rates again at this point. My last ticket was for my front tires sticking over the line at a light, earlier this year.

I had a sheriff behind me for a couple miles just today and I very consciously kept it at 44 in the 45 (felt like I was crawling!) but he eventually drove around me and waved as he passed. Good man that one. (Anyone that don't pull me over is a good guy!!):D

[Edward429451]

Just a thought, but you MIGHT have some issues with authority/control.

I've been mulling this over while out driving around working and this strikes me as very odd. You say it like it is a bad thing to have a problem with authority and control...

I'm obviously taking this beyond the scope of this thread...Here we are, all pro RKBA, willing to fight for our rights (at some point at least), and yet, the general consensus seems to be to cooperate. This is America and all that it implies. Why shouldn't we have a problem with control and authority? Are we "We the People" or are we not? Are we sovereign?

What means this martial array of heavily armed police if not to force us into submission? The police do not like to lose control of a situation someone said. Understandable. I would want to make it home to the wife & kids also.

Is my thinking incorrect, or are we (some of you) losing sight of the critical ideals that our great country was founded on? If I am having a poor case of judgement about being hard nosed about my rights, then wherein did my rights go? At what point did we cease to be sovereign and give ourselves over to the state and federal constabulary? I cannot help but think that the mere threat of force by the state is enough to make most people stand down and surrender to the state. Patrick Henry said that fear is the passion of slaves. If I do not demand and be willing to fight for my rights, am I a slave? If not, why not?

If all it takes is the threat of force to get you to surrender, can I threaten you and take what I will from you? Oh, you'd plant me in the dirt you say? OK, reasonable response to that one. Now then, how's the state's threat differ from mine. Why would you be willing to fight me but not the state?

I'm confused. There seems to be paradoxial views on this "freedom forum".
Hmmm.

[CZ-100]

I don't think we're required to in Florida either, but I always do anyway. I have had lots of cops react differently. One of which took my guns, left them loaded, and when he drove away left them on the bedrail of my truck for me to retrieve in a Walmart parking lot. That got some strange looks.

We are not required to, but in the paperwork that came with the application for an CWL it stated that if the officer ran your Lic. it would tell him you had one.

[RVSinOK]

Edward, I have to tip my hat to you. When I first posted my response to your description of your experience with getting pulled over and getting out of the car to approach the LEO, I wasn't quite sure what to expect in return. In some ways, I thought I might get an indignant "I was right and she was wrong" response, but your reaction was far from that. You have valid arguments for why you did what you did, and I applaud your staying rational and keeping to "The High Road." I may not agree with what you did, but I appreciate your calm, rational responses to what everyone here has to say!:D

[4thHorseman]

I can see the officer's side. He/She has a family , maybe kids or whatever. They are concerned about their life also.
I tell them here in VA that I'm carrying, even though there is no requirement. They already know though because it comes up on their computer on a license plate check.
Here, they remove all the bullets out of the gun if the gun is in the car and not on the person.
When they leave, I just put the bullets back in. They know that. It's something they have to do.
One thing I haven't seen anyone mention though is, I have to jump through all kinds of back ground checks to have a CCW. Basically a cop might consider a CCW person a tad bit safer on a stop than a NON CCW.
JMHO

[Edward429451]

Well thank you very much. I appreciate your validation of my thought process.

Some of the greater minds and mods on this board have been a most excellant example for me to choose my wording more carefully and to emotionalize less. I've learned that good points in a debate can be easily invalidated by nothing more than a poor choice of words on the poster's part. I used to get a lot of threads closed by making that mistake.

I'm not always right but I continue to learn and to refine my debating skills, while the greater minds can continue to sip their lemonade instead of having to come extinguish the fires that I started! ;) :D

[Billmanweh]

You obviously have a SERIOUS problem with authority. I never said not to question authority, but it's unreasonable to be unwilling to ever accept authority.

There are people who demand authority in order to be able to do their jobs. School kid and teacher, law enforcement and motorist, defendant/plaintiff and judge, these are some examples of relationships that demand some form of authority and submission (for lack of a better word). And at the same time they all exist very well inside the framework of our society. You can be hard nosed about your rights and still show the appropriate respect for the position of a law enforcement officer (or judge or college professor, etc). But you are somehow equating this to being a "slave". You keep using words like "surrender", "fear" and "threat" when all the original situation called for was simple cooperation.

There really is no paradox. While keeping all of your constitutional rights, you will still lawfully submit to authority on occasion. If your ticket goes to court, the officer who wrote you up will submit to the authority of the judge.

I would just keep in mind that on the side of the road at night is not the safest part of the work day for law enforcement. When you are pulled over for speeding, you're not on equal footing with the officer. He/she is in control and HAS to be to do their job safely. If you can't be controlled verbally, you're just begging for the situation to be escalated.

Just something to think about I guess...

[P95Carry]

I'm ''getting on in years'' .... (damn, that's a tame way to put it!!) ...... and so reckon I probably do not seem too threatening. Eccentric? Most probably! :p

However ... whilst here there is no statutary requirement to declare carry ... ..... my approach is simply that, it is better to be up front.

So - I don't need to .... agreed but I reckon that putting myself in a cop's shoes doin a traffic stop ... I'd sure as hell like to KNOW if the guy I am hoping to make peaceful and safe conversation with is armed. Immediately reduces pressures considerably I'd imagine.

I am assuming of course I am stopped for some minor infringement .. and am not fleeing from the biggest heist in my County's history!!:D :D

[*8*]

Pendragon, I'll check it out.

DaveP, I would venture to say, he is between 30-35.

ScottsGT, I have more then 2 but yeah, I really need more handguns.

Norman74, mines the poor mans hummer, the H2. :D

Thanks ya'all.