Is it appropriate for a RSO to go through your bags?


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GIJOEL
June 26, 2010, 05:40 PM
I went to an outdoor public range today that I get to maybe 2-3 times per year. I decided to head over to the new 100-200-300 yard range that I had never shot at, when I got there I checked in with the RSO and he pointed me towards the bench he thought best. A few minuets later he came back and saw that I was going to be shooting an AR-15 and asked what ammo I was shooting, I said I was going to be trying out a few brands to see what cheap ammo worked the best. Without asking he opened my range bag that was zipped up and started going trough my stash and began lecturing me about shooting steel cased ammo... If I hadn't driven an hour to get there and shoot I would have left the range. Has anyone had this happen? I've been asked to show what ammo I'm using at an indoor range, but that makes sense.

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taliv
June 26, 2010, 05:42 PM
it's entirely inappropriate. you should have politely told him that was unacceptable and that you weren't interested in his opinion.

CountGlockula
June 26, 2010, 05:43 PM
Most range officer are pretty polite and ask permission. Most likely he wanted to make sure that you didn't have any steel case or tracer rounds. I'd pull the manager and let him write up the range officer, they shouldn't go through your personal property...despite their range, their rules rule. There's a thing called respect.

wishin
June 26, 2010, 05:45 PM
You should have told him to cease and desist. He had no business getting into your bag without your permission. Find out who he reports to and raise a stink.

lilguy
June 26, 2010, 06:51 PM
I'm an NRA RSO and at my club the SOP states RSO's are not to be challenged, what we say goes when on duty. You got a problem ,write a letter to the BOD.
Too many folks try to push the envelope, his approach was coarse but not inappropriate. You get belligerent the Sheriff is on speed dial.

SharpsDressedMan
June 26, 2010, 06:55 PM
Steel case, or steel core? Steel case presents no threat or problem that I know of. Steel core bulleted ammo could damage the range. In any case, he was rude and unnecessarily intrusive. I'd file a complaint, or talk to his boss in person.

sophijo
June 26, 2010, 06:59 PM
IMO he can ask to see your ammo. Searching your bag wo your permission is BS and maybe illegal.

W.E.G.
June 26, 2010, 07:03 PM
RSO was a jerk, and I would have told him so in quite frank terms.

No two ways about it.

I don't care about the Sheriff or your speed-dial antics.

Drail
June 26, 2010, 07:12 PM
No doubt the Most High Sheriff would pop his lights and sirens and race to a call like that. You bet. Maybe tell him you found a guy with "cop killer" bullets.

Zoidberg523
June 26, 2010, 07:17 PM
I'm an NRA RSO and at my club the SOP states RSO's are not to be challenged, what we say goes when on duty. You got a problem ,write a letter to the BOD.
Too many folks try to push the envelope, his approach was coarse but not inappropriate. You get belligerent the Sheriff is on speed dial.

If you started searching through my private property without my permission, and without a warrant, I would have the sheriff on the line much faster than you would.

ETA - When is a person who is concerned with their privacy "pushing the envelope"? If the OP had refused to show the RSO his ammo choices, then the RSO can ask him to leave. No RSO at any range, public or private, has the right to just open someones private property and nose through it. That is no different than a woman in a store setting down her purse at the cash register, only to have the cashier start rifling through it looking for the money.

Gouranga
June 26, 2010, 07:24 PM
That is total BS. OK, I understand his reasons and he has every right to know what goes on with the range is safe and within rules. He really should have ASKED, you could have refused and he could have thrown you off for refusing to allow him to look and I would be cool with that. Just going into someones bag like that, IMO, totally inappropriate.

dogtown tom
June 26, 2010, 07:34 PM
Sounds like an opportunity to slide a mousetrap, cigarette lighter hand grenade or dirty underwear into the old range bag.:D

A friendly "The range prohibits popular, inexpensive ammo, would you mind showing me the ammo you're going to use?" beats a snoop any day. The RSO was out of line.

lilguy I'm an NRA RSO and at my club the SOP states RSO's are not to be challenged, what we say goes when on duty. You got a problem ,write a letter to the BOD.
Too many folks try to push the envelope, his approach was coarse but not inappropriate. You get belligerent the Sheriff is on speed dial.
So........what would be inappropriate? Pulling the bullet and sawing it in half?:scrutiny:

If the range does not have a written "we can search your bag because we feel like it" policy then the RSO is overstepping his authority.

KodiakBeer
June 26, 2010, 07:36 PM
Inappropriate, offensive, disrespectful and illegal. I would have filmed the event with my camera, called the police and then a lawyer.

Zack
June 26, 2010, 07:41 PM
Search

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IMO he can ask to see your ammo. Searching your bag wo your permission is BS and maybe illegal.


Illegal search!:confused:

Deltaboy
June 26, 2010, 07:43 PM
I would have loaded up my gear and walked out.

Zoidberg523
June 26, 2010, 07:43 PM
I would hate to be the employer of any idiot RSO that thinks he can search someone's anything (bag, car, pocket, purse, wallet, house, w/e) without their permission. Having one of your employees arrested and having your business slammed in the public pulse section of the paper could be devastating. All that is not to mention the power of today's internet. It doesn't take much to get a few thousand people to do something: boycott, protest, write letters, etc. Technology can be evil to some, but sometimes it helps bite the big dog on the.... well, you get it.

With blogs and forums (especially the bigger ones, like Myspace and Facebook) you can easily get people to protest things that are unconstitutional - such as illegal search and seizure.

rodinal220
June 26, 2010, 07:44 PM
"I'm an NRA RSO and at my club the SOP states RSO's are not to be challenged, what we say goes when on duty. You got a problem ,write a letter to the BOD.
Too many folks try to push the envelope, his approach was coarse but not inappropriate. You get belligerent the Sheriff is on speed dial"


So what.If you did that to me you would be going to the emergency room first,then the county lock up to be processed.Just because you are an RSO,doesnt mean you know everything,stick to basic safety protocols and loose the scumbag sense of entitlement.

Certification does not equal competance.

Did this happen at the Bristol range per chance??Sounds very much like their MO.

armoredman
June 26, 2010, 07:44 PM
I was an RSO at two different ranges, and it would have never even occured to me to put my hands in or on a customers personal property without a clear specific invitation. The MOST intrusive we ever got was asking for tax stamps when NFA items appeared. Those people could also refuse to show that paperwork, and we would, once again, not even dream of laying hands on thier personal property, but would request that they leave the building, nothing more. Only if someone refused to leave would LE ever get involved, and that would be to trespass the individual. I never had any issues with that. The RSO in question was outside of normal activity as far as I am concered, and I was an NRA certified RSO for several years.

mnrivrat
June 26, 2010, 07:51 PM
I'm an NRA RSO and at my club the SOP states RSO's are not to be challenged, what we say goes when on duty. You got a problem ,write a letter to the BOD.
Too many folks try to push the envelope, his approach was coarse but not inappropriate. You get belligerent the Sheriff is on speed dial.

Perhaps you can tell us what club you RSO at so that I can frankly avoid going there . Rifling through my stuff without permission will get your hand slapped - hard ! You can hit the speed dial with the other one .

Mr.Davis
June 26, 2010, 07:51 PM
I'm an NRA RSO and at my club the SOP states RSO's are not to be challenged, what we say goes when on duty. You got a problem ,write a letter to the BOD.
Too many folks try to push the envelope, his approach was coarse but not inappropriate. You get belligerent the Sheriff is on speed dial.

Wow.

An unlawful (yes, unlawful) search of another's private property is indeed "inappropriate". Actually, that's far too mild a word. The proper word would be "illegal".

RSOs are to be obeyed on matters of safety and procedure. An RSO can't order me to do jumping jacks, just like they can't conduct an unauthorized search of my vehicle. You're taking the rules of your organization WAY beyond the way they were intended.

Beyond that, it's just rude. "Sir, we have a rule against steel core ammo at this range. Would you mind if I check to confirm none of your ammo will damage the backstop?" Now how hard was that?

We've got a serious jerk RSO at my club's range that enjoys throwing his (literal) weight around over the stupidest things. Not even he would see reasonable behavior in rifling through somebody else's property.

NRA certification, RSO status, none matter in this case. You're not a god, so quit pretending you have authorization to act like one.

Gouranga
June 26, 2010, 07:53 PM
"I'm an NRA RSO and at my club the SOP states RSO's are not to be challenged, what we say goes when on duty. You got a problem ,write a letter to the BOD.
Too many folks try to push the envelope, his approach was coarse but not inappropriate. You get belligerent the Sheriff is on speed dial"

A tad bit authoritative there don't ya think? I get the RSO has a serious responsibility, and I am EXTREMELY glad they are there at the range to keep things safe. However, it does not make them any better than anyone else or give them a right/reason to start off puttin' the smack down on everyone. A little respect on both sides is, IMO, appropriate.

I know at my range if I bring my own ammo, they will politely ask to see it. Occasionally, they will ask to see my firearm. I will always comply. They don't frisk me, look through my pockets, or grab my case and rifle through it. I have actually (my first time there) had the RSO ask to look through my case. He asked me, actually told me what he was looking for (steel core bullets) and told me if had any or would prefer I did not check the case, then I could leave the case at the desk, and take my allowed ammo and firearm openly to shoot. He was every bit clear they were in charge but also, at the same time sensible, and respectful and they rarely have any issues at that range because of it.

SharpsDressedMan
June 26, 2010, 08:15 PM
"Yeah, sheriff. I had $200 in that bag before this guy stuck his hands in it. I don't know HOW he hid the money...it has to be here somewhere. I did NOT give him permission to go into my bag. I want to file a theft report."......................:evil:

EddieNFL
June 26, 2010, 08:35 PM
I'm an NRA RSO and at my club the SOP states RSO's are not to be challenged, what we say goes when on duty. You got a problem ,write a letter to the BOD.
Too many folks try to push the envelope, his approach was coarse but not inappropriate. You get belligerent the Sheriff is on speed dial.
I'm an NRA trained CRSO and a BoD member of the local range. ANYONE caught going through another person's property will be escorted from the range.

I don't care what title someone has in front of their name, wrong is wrong.

rondog
June 26, 2010, 09:15 PM
Thank God my club's range is non-policed, or self-regulated or whatever it's called. There's lots of individual ranges there, and we can pretty much have one all to ourselves with no other shooters or any RSO's breathing down your necks. Now, for "events", where there's several people involved in competitions of some sort, sure, there's an RSO, usually a volunteer member. But we don't have Range Nazi's.

560 acres of shooting heaven. Kind of on the windy side of heaven though, sometimes.

The Lone Haranguer
June 26, 2010, 09:22 PM
Ask to see my ammo? No problem. Touch my property without my permission? BIG problem.

I'm an NRA RSO and at my club the SOP states RSO's are not to be challenged, what we say goes when on duty. You got a problem ,write a letter to the BOD.
Too many folks try to push the envelope, his approach was coarse but not inappropriate. You get belligerent the Sheriff is on speed dial.
:rolleyes:

BCCL
June 26, 2010, 09:24 PM
It should be his last day as an RSO.

Rosstradamus
June 26, 2010, 09:32 PM
I'm an NRA RSO and at my club the SOP states RSO's are not to be challenged, what we say goes when on duty. You got a problem ,write a letter to the BOD. Too many folks try to push the envelope, his approach was coarse but not inappropriate. You get belligerent the Sheriff is on speed dial.

It anyone is looking for the definition of Range Nazi, you just found it.

tooltech
June 26, 2010, 09:59 PM
Thank God my club's range is non-policed, or self-regulated or whatever it's called. There's lots of individual ranges there, and we can pretty much have one all to ourselves with no other shooters or any RSO's breathing down your necks. Now, for "events", where there's several people involved in competitions of some sort, sure, there's an RSO, usually a volunteer member. But we don't have Range Nazi's.

560 acres of shooting heaven. Kind of on the windy side of heaven though, sometimes.

Where do you shoot?

Drail
June 26, 2010, 10:00 PM
Having spent a few years as an RO on a private club's range facilities we only watched people to see that they weren't doing unsafe stupid things. As far what they have in their bag, I couldn't care less. If you start busting out targets and stands or lights or buildings, we would get your license number and file charges. But going through someone's bag? No way.

TehK1w1
June 26, 2010, 10:08 PM
I don't mind showing the RSO my ammo. I'd be unhappy if he asked to look through my bags, and would probably leave instead. Rifling through your personal bags and belongings without permission, though, is inexcusable and illegal.

nitetrane98
June 26, 2010, 10:17 PM
As always, different states may vary but I'd love it if somebody would post the law that would make a private citizen, not acting under the color of law, guilty of a criminal offense for looking through somebody's bag. All of this, "Call the sheriff" BS. What's he going to charge him with, "Malicious coon fingering with intent to snoop? Illegal search? Yeah right. Everybody knows those RSO's have to get a warrant to search your stuff. Geez.

I'm an NRA RSO and at my club the SOP states RSO's are not to be challenged, what we say goes when on duty. You got a problem ,write a letter to the BOD. Too many folks try to push the envelope, his approach was coarse but not inappropriate. You get belligerent the Sheriff is on speed dial.

What's the point of having any written rules?

A lot of folks sound like the joke about the fellow getting pulled over and ticketed for speed along with a stern ass chewing. The trooper then walks around to passenger side and chews him out too. "I'm just granting your wish. 100 yards down the road you're gonna say, "Wish he had tried that stuff with me."

Not sure what I'd have done. Dang sure wouldn't have liked it but you know what Forrest Gump says about stupid.

Erik
June 26, 2010, 10:19 PM
"Is it appropriate for a RSO to go through your bags?"

No. Never.

ghoster
June 26, 2010, 11:00 PM
I had a ro walk up holding his gun pointing down but in both hands like he was preped to pull up on my buddy and order him to make his weapon safe, set it on the table, turn around and keep his hands away from his sidearm. My buddy had his 45 in a serpa holster on his side. It was priceless watching wanabe mall ninga poop his pants when he found out he drew on a federal marshal.:p Needless to say Mr. studrock RO dosent work around guns anymore.

NavyLCDR
June 26, 2010, 11:10 PM
I'm an NRA RSO and at my club the SOP states RSO's are not to be challenged, what we say goes when on duty. You got a problem ,write a letter to the BOD.
Too many folks try to push the envelope, his approach was coarse but not inappropriate. You get belligerent the Sheriff is on speed dial.

http://www.clsinc.net/bikepictures/Emoticons/laughing4.gif
http://www.clsinc.net/bikepictures/Emoticons/laughing.gif

Oh... wait.... you were being serious....

http://www.clsinc.net/bikepictures/Emoticons/laugh2.gif

rocky branch
June 26, 2010, 11:19 PM
What a jerk-off.
Coutersy and respect are a two way street.
Why couldn't he let you know the situation and explain he needed to see your stuff.
You could have then displayed it.
Thank God for my own range.

jbkebert
June 26, 2010, 11:26 PM
Originally Posted by lilguy
I'm an NRA RSO and at my club the SOP states RSO's are not to be challenged, what we say goes when on duty. You got a problem ,write a letter to the BOD.
Too many folks try to push the envelope, his approach was coarse but not inappropriate. You get belligerent the Sheriff is on speed dial.


Wow a little proud of your title aren't you. I also am a NRA RSO and my hands don't even touch a shooters gun. I may ask a person that I am unfamilar with to see there gun. Just open the case and the action I don't need to hold it. I also may ask someone to show me the ammo the intend to shoot. The main reason to make sure it matches the firearm brought to the range or to make sure they are not bringing tracers or the like on the firing line. If a person shows up with a older firearm or a new firearm I may ask that they load one round at a time for the first 10 rounds to make sure they can safely operate that gun.

Now I do have a copy of the NRA RSO manual and I can't find the page that says I have absolute authority to search the property of a person wishing to shoot on the range I am operating. I do have the right and the responsiblity to first correct any negative actions caused by shooters. For the most part I will tell them to correct themselves first. If there is a lack of response to my request I will ask them to leave. If they don't leave then the LEO is called. Shooting is supposed to be fun but safe. I had Drill SGTs with more personality than your post suggest.

bigalexe
June 26, 2010, 11:40 PM
To OP:

Anyone going through your belongings without invitation should be treated with suspicion, I would not hesitate to ask them to stop. In regards to an RSO starting an unwarranted and impromptu lecture on ammunition or weapons could politely be asked "Is any of my equipment against posted range policies?"

Now realize that challenging someone like that is going to upset them and will most likely lead to a confrontational situation but that is their problem and not yours.

taliv
June 26, 2010, 11:42 PM
This is the high road, guys. The ONLY reasonable response to a very minor offense like that is polite conversation, and possibly taking your business elsewhere.

I strongly suspect all this talk about the RSO needing to call the sheriff because you would be belligerent is just childish, toothless internet braggadocio, hopefully by posters who are actually too young to own guns.


Seriously, you should think about what you post BEFORE you post it, as you're proving the anti's arguments!

Oh look! a totally minor offense like someone touching someone else's property, and guys are threatening violence. Imagine what would happen if they both had guns! Oh wait, they do. Well, we just can't allow guns in shooting ranges anymore. It's just not safe!

Justin
June 26, 2010, 11:43 PM
The RSO was absolutely wrong to search through the range bag without the owner's permission.

A bit of civility in asking to see the amunition would have gone a long way.

Unfortunately the RSO in question is the perfect example of a little man with a little power.

Hatterasguy
June 26, 2010, 11:51 PM
I just shoot at places without the Gestapo and other morons that sometimes need them.

Private ranges are the best, public ranges where you have to deal with that are just.:barf:

killchain
June 27, 2010, 12:18 AM
I'm an NRA RSO and at my club the SOP states RSO's are not to be challenged, what we say goes when on duty. You got a problem ,write a letter to the BOD.
Too many folks try to push the envelope, his approach was coarse but not inappropriate. You get belligerent the Sheriff is on speed dial.

Good luck looking through my bags without permission.

GIJOEL
June 27, 2010, 12:40 AM
Thanks for the responses I'll call the club when they open in the morning. I really like the club and facilities so hopefully they will let this guy go.

gdesloge
June 27, 2010, 12:43 AM
"This is the high road, guys. The ONLY reasonable response to a very minor offense like that is polite conversation, and possibly taking your business elsewhere."

Doesn't "The High Road" also imply that we follow the rules and the law as we understand them and that we expect others to do the same?

I am not advocating an emotional response at all. However, should not there be some repercussion for someone in a position of authority who breaks the law other than "polite conversation"? Such as answering to their superior or to the legal system?

I do not believe in two standards of behaviour.

gd

achildofthesky
June 27, 2010, 12:46 AM
Delete...

taliv
June 27, 2010, 12:48 AM
absolutely, gdesloge. that polite conversation could also include the range owner. (though it's not clear to me that any laws were broken)

DasFriek
June 27, 2010, 12:51 AM
I would have done as the OP unfortunately as im still rather new to ranges and RSO's.
Ive been asked at indoor ranges to have my ammo inspected as im sure most everyone here has, The key is being "asked".

I shoot at a DNR range in Ohio and the the RSO gets very unhappy if you step off the sidewalks and paths and step on his grass, For the love of god don't step on his grass!
Best RSO ive ever met too.

If i was the OP id never return and send a very unhappy email or phone call to the guys superiors.

spyder1969
June 27, 2010, 01:00 AM
Sounds like a wanna be Sheriff. We have constitutional laws that protect us from idiots like him!

gdesloge
June 27, 2010, 01:03 AM
Thank you for the response, taliv.

If I have a firearm in my possession, then I am responsible for it.

If someone were to attempt to touch or take it without my permission, then I would be irresponsible if I did not take that seriously.

gd

P.S. In the world of "customer service", you are doing the business a service if you report dissatisfaction with their "service". Often, customers just walk away without informing management about their problems.

Zoidberg523
June 27, 2010, 01:11 AM
Originally Posted by taliv
Oh look! a totally minor offense like someone touching someone else's property, and guys are threatening violence. Imagine what would happen if they both had guns! Oh wait, they do. Well, we just can't allow guns in shooting ranges anymore. It's just not safe!

I don't mean to openly question a Mod: I like this site. :)

BUT......

Since when is touching someone else's property a "totally minor offense"? You wouldn't like it much if I began rummaging through your wife's purse, or through your wallet. A range bag is just as personal as those things, only it usually contains much more sensitive and expensive items.

Plus....

Originally Posted by taliv
(though it's not clear to me that any laws were broken)

Pretty sure that we have privacy laws (which vary by county, but which never permit someone to trespass/meddle with private property without the owner's consent). Not to mention that we have a whole amendment devoted to it. -

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

4th Amendment - Which is not limited to law enforcement, as you can see. Indeed, any person (with the exception of a police officer with "probable cause", and possibly a school security guard/principal with same [though I believe only if the student is under 18]) must have a warrant to trespass upon or meddle with, your private property.

ETA - The only exception that I can think of would be if the range had a sign that specifically stated that they reserved the "right" to search any and all range bags, which I highly doubt that they have (who in their right mind would shoot there, if that was the case?).

Tim the student
June 27, 2010, 02:01 AM
I'd definitely have a problem with that.

Stonestacker
June 27, 2010, 02:02 AM
Man, am I glad that I shoot on my own private land. I don't even know what RSO stands for.

Zoidberg523
June 27, 2010, 02:26 AM
Range Safety Officer.

Always better/more fun to have your own private land - or at least state hunting land.

Stonestacker
June 27, 2010, 02:38 AM
Thanks, Zoidberg. I figured it was something like that.

A and O
June 27, 2010, 03:24 AM
I refuse to go to Nazi Establishments for their health and mine. I live FREE and am my own RSO as are all those with me where I shoot. I sometimes wonder how many rounds go down range on a late June weekend all across this huge Country. Seems to me that if only once in ten years a mishap were to occur that the media would talk about it for ten years.

I tend to trust my fellow man, I demand that from all I meet or I walk away.

To the OP: I would have grabbed my goods and demanded a hearing with his Boss and then left the site to never return.

1911fan
June 27, 2010, 05:08 AM
1) The OP said that this is an OUTDOOR range and that the RSO had harangued him about the evils of steel CASED ammo. Why would this be a concern on an outdoor range?

2) Sharp Dressed Man had it right, except it wasn't two hundred piddly dollars, it was Hermann Goering's personal, gold-plated PPK. "Well, I put it in there before I left home and it wasn't there when I looked after the RSO illegally rifled through my zippered range bag."

3) Wonder what our RSO wopuld have done had the bag actually been LOCKED?!?

Points to ponder--

ed

Owen
June 27, 2010, 07:46 AM
I'm an NRA RSO and at my club the SOP states RSO's are not to be challenged, what we say goes when on duty. You got a problem ,write a letter to the BOD. Too many folks try to push the envelope, his approach was coarse but not inappropriate. You get belligerent the Sheriff is on speed dial.

I don't think its the members pushing the envelope...

logical
June 27, 2010, 08:34 AM
Inappropriate, offensive, disrespectful and illegal. I would have filmed the event with my camera, called the police and then a lawyer

I'm with you in your first sentence....then you lost me. Then really really lost me.

EddieNFL
June 27, 2010, 09:20 AM
As always, different states may vary but I'd love it if somebody would post the law that would make a private citizen, not acting under the color of law, guilty of a criminal offense for looking through somebody's bag. All of this, "Call the sheriff" BS.

I agree. Also, don't bother to call the sheriff when you lose a finger as I'm lawfully retrieving my bag. :rolleyes:

loadedround
June 27, 2010, 09:30 AM
If a RSO or anyone else started to go through my closed secured gear without permission would have some severe contusions on said hand or arm and a copy of the Bill of Rights stapled to his backside. Privacy is to respected not abused!

Victor1Echo
June 27, 2010, 09:50 AM
I am so glad I shoot on public land. I hated shooting at ranges. The RSo were like prison gaurds, and in all fairness they kind of have to be. Lots of idiots. Still do not touch my stuff with out permission! Want to know what's in my bag? ask!

trex1310
June 27, 2010, 09:50 AM
I'm an NRA RSO and at my club the SOP states RSO's are not to be challenged, what we say goes when on duty. You got a problem ,write a letter to the BOD.
Too many folks try to push the envelope, his approach was coarse but not inappropriate. You get belligerent the Sheriff is on speed dial.

I wouldn't challenge this guy, he might have a cartridge in his shirt
pocket!

nitetrane98
June 27, 2010, 10:08 AM
4th Amendment - Which is not limited to law enforcement, as you can see. Indeed, any person (with the exception of a police officer with "probable cause", and possibly a school security guard/principal with same [though I believe only if the student is under 18]) must have a warrant to trespass upon or meddle with, your private property.

My god , where do people come up with stuff like this?

postalnut25
June 27, 2010, 10:12 AM
The RSO did the wrong thing by going through the bag. However, the 4th Amendment only applies to governmental entities and the people that represent them (i.e. police, sheriffs, etc.)

benEzra
June 27, 2010, 10:30 AM
The OP said that this is an OUTDOOR range and that the RSO had harangued him about the evils of steel CASED ammo. Why would this be a concern on an outdoor range?
I suspect that the RSO was playing the "I know more about guns than you" card with that statement, and trying to imply that you shouldn't shoot steel cased ammo through an AR for the gun's sake. I think the "16,000 rounds of Wolf without cleaning" thread elsewhere pretty much shows that position is incorrect.

The RSO didn't say it was against range policy to use Wolf; he was trying to convince the shooter to use more expensive ammo.

As to the question of rifling through the bag, are you telling me that there is no law preventing some random guy from going through the purse of the woman next to him, as long as she's not holding it? That it's only a crime if he actually takes something, or if he starts going through the pockets of her clothes (which would presumably be assault)? I don't see how that could be correct; if the Walmart greeter cannot legally search my Walmart bags on the way out the Walmart door, then how in the world can some random stranger legally rifle through my personal stuff without asking for consent?

Deanimator
June 27, 2010, 10:38 AM
I'm a range officer at our club. We're VERY serious about safety.

No range officer would touch anyone's gun without permission, except to ensure that it was unloaded before the line was cleared for a target change, or if it was found with the action closed while the person was not at his firing point.

A range officer who searched somebody's bag would probably not be a range officer after the next board meeting.

I'd have told him he didn't have my permission to search me, packed up my gear and left. I would have then found out who the responsible party was and seen if that was policy. If it was, that'd be the end of me at that range. If it wasn't, I'd expect an apology from that range officer.

BeerSleeper
June 27, 2010, 10:50 AM
1) The OP said that this is an OUTDOOR range and that the RSO had harangued him about the evils of steel CASED ammo. Why would this be a concern on an outdoor range?
For that matter, why would it be concern on an indoor range? I can see reasons for a range to be concerned with the type, size, and velocity of the bullets, but why do the casings matter?

BlkHawk73
June 27, 2010, 10:54 AM
It is your property and he's NOT a cop with reasonable suspicion to search the property. As often the case with someone having a slight amount of authority, he's overstepped his bounds.

SOOO glad I belong to a private club/range

Justin
June 27, 2010, 10:57 AM
1) The OP said that this is an OUTDOOR range and that the RSO had harangued him about the evils of steel CASED ammo. Why would this be a concern on an outdoor range?

There are at least a couple of brands of steel-cased ammo that have a steel core in them. If the range the OP was shooting on had steel gongs set out for the members to shoot at, the RSO could have been validly concerned that he was intending to fire steel-core rounds at the gongs.

Doing so would cause a lot of damage to the target, so the RSO's concerns aren't completely unfounded.

That said, valid safety concerns are no excuse for someone to act like a jerk. I quit my membership at one club in part due to something similar.

Spencer_OKC
June 27, 2010, 11:36 AM
While I agree that this is absolutely unacceptable, I do not think this is an illegal act, at least it wouldn't be in the State of Oklahoma.

The restrictions of the 4th Amendment apply to agents of the government, and not to private citizens.

Larceny or robbery charges generally require a taking, and there is also no apparent intent.

My response would have been to repack my gear, find the management to make a complaint & request a refund, and then leave.

Justin
June 27, 2010, 11:42 AM
All the talk about calling the cops makes you guys sound kind of reactionary.

This is an internal club matter, and frankly the cops have better things to do than deal with a range officer with an inflated sense of authority.

Onward Allusion
June 27, 2010, 12:36 PM
Not cool at all. The RSO definitely should have asked your permission or questioned you regarding the type of ammo you were going to shoot. He should have NEVER touched your range bag!

Drop a letter or phone the owners of the range. Depending on their answer, you may have to find another range.

GIJOEL (http://www.thehighroad.org/member.php?u=116085)
Is it appropriate for a RSO to go through your bags?

KodiakBeer
June 27, 2010, 12:48 PM
Inappropriate, offensive, disrespectful and illegal. I would have filmed the event with my camera, called the police and then a lawyer
I'm with you in your first sentence....then you lost me. Then really really lost me.

A crime was being committed. You need a police report to to back up the civil suit, even if the police refuse to make an arrest.

Nobody is going to search me or my belongings without a warrant from a judge, or my express permission. If an RSO asked me to show him the contents of my bag to see that I was complying with the rules of the establishment, I'd happily and politely comply. Walk up and start rifling through my bag without permission and you're going to have a problem.

NavyLCDR
June 27, 2010, 12:59 PM
All the talk about calling the cops makes you guys sound kind of reactionary.

This is an internal club matter, and frankly the cops have better things to do than deal with a range officer with an inflated sense of authority.

Justin,

You might want to look at who mentioned called the cops first:

I'm an NRA RSO and at my club the SOP states RSO's are not to be challenged, what we say goes when on duty. You got a problem ,write a letter to the BOD.
Too many folks try to push the envelope, his approach was coarse but not inappropriate. You get belligerent the Sheriff is on speed dial.

It was the "NRA RSO", lilguy, with the Napoleon complex talking about calling the Sheriff on "belligerent" shooters. Anyone starts going through my personal belongings the way claimed by the OP, and I am going to get "belligerent" real quick, and I don't care if that anyone is a bum on the street, an RSO, or the Sheriff.

WNC Seabee
June 27, 2010, 01:15 PM
I carry 2-3 pistols and their magazines (mags loaded, but not inserted) in my range bag. How would I know what the RSOs intentions are? Do I just hope he's not going for my gun? No. I would immediately separate him from my property and THEN worry about his intentions.

armoredman
June 27, 2010, 01:18 PM
Another reason to love my unsupervised yet well maintained free public range.

Rexster
June 27, 2010, 01:21 PM
I am concerned about the assertions of those who indicate they would resist the jerk RSO with physical force. The legality of doing so will certainly vary from state to state, and moreover, keep in mind that while on private property, the advisability of using force against a property owner, or his designee, may be anything from merely a bad idea, to a felony. When on someone else's premises, tread lightly when asserting one's rights!

To set aside the issue of being on private premises for a moment, there IS a difference in touching/handling property that is attached to one's person, and doing the same with a range bag which is just sitting there. One is a crime against the person, and the other is a property issue, which may or may not be a crime, depending on the setting and jurisdiction. It may be a "civil" issue, for which force may not be used.

Keep in mind, there is private property and public property. There are private places and public places. Private property may indeed be a public place, but private property rules still apply.

In short, it is not necessarily illegal to be a jerk, and, all else being equal, the owner of the premises, or his designee, usually has the law on his side, from a criminal law standpoint.

Deanimator
June 27, 2010, 01:44 PM
To set aside the issue of being on private premises for a moment, there IS a difference in touching/handling property that is attached to one's person, and doing the same with a range bag which is just sitting there. One is a crime against the person, and the other is a property issue, which may or may not be a crime, depending on the setting and jurisdiction. It may be a "civil" issue, for which force may not be used.
It depends upon exactly WHAT that range officer does.

What does he do when you tell him to get out of your range bag?
He's legally entitled to tell you to take it and leave.

Does he withhold it from you?
That's an unlawful theft/conversion.

Does he prevent you from leaving?
That's false imprisonment/kidnapping.

If he forcibly tries to TAKE your bag, in most places you would be legally entitled to use proportionate non-deadly force to retain or recover it. Neither he nor the club is entitled to take your property.

If he tries to detain you, you have the right to use whatever reasonable force is necessary to effect your escape.

The club/range is like any other business. If they suspect you've stolen something, they can ASK you to show them your bag and call the police if they have evidence against you. That's clearly not the case here. If they attempt to detain you or dispossess you, they may be committing a crime and are opening themselves to civil suit.

If he tries to search your bag, tell him to back off, collect your property, and leave. If he tries to detain you or confiscate your property, he's committing a crime, and calling law enforcement is certainly in order.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
June 27, 2010, 02:04 PM
Put a cocked rat trap in and go visit the same guy.:D

Sorry, I just had to say that.
My opinion is that the guy should have ASKED before pawing through your bag.
Suppose you are diabetic and there was an insulin needle pointing upward? Did he ask you whether there are any needles or any other sharp objects in the bag (like they do at the airport)?

Don't forget, we all have our days, perhaps his day was just going lousily. Maybe his wife left him that morning. Maybe he was up all night with noisy neighbors.

I realize they are still NOT EXCUSES for doing what he did.

Spencer_OKC
June 27, 2010, 02:30 PM
A crime was being committed. You need a police report to to back up the civil suit, even if the police refuse to make an arrest.

Nobody is going to search me or my belongings without a warrant from a judge, or my express permission.

Several people have been quick in label this as a crime, and then discuss ideas like warrants. A private citizen can't get a warrant, and 4th Amendment rules about when someone can be searched are limited to agents of the government.

There is no law against being a jerk, and as long as the he didn't try to steal your property or assault you then that is what he was doing, being a jerk. Make your complaint and if the management doesn't satisfy you take your business elsewhere. I'm sure the police want nothing more than to deal with this.

I'll agree that I'm not familiar with statutes/ordinances everywhere in the country, but where I live this is not a crime.

If he tries to search your bag, tell him to back off, collect your property, and leave. If he tries to detain you or confiscate your property, he's committing a crime, and calling law enforcement is certainly in order.

+1

KodiakBeer
June 27, 2010, 02:43 PM
There is no law against being a jerk, and as long as the he didn't try to steal your property or assault you then that is what he was doing, being a jerk.

Then you won't mind if I grab your wife's purse and begin rifling through it at the restuarant? If your wallet is on the table can I snatch it and begin going through it? In fact, if I did that I'd be committing a crime.
It's only a property crime so use of force is probably out of bounds, but you can bet I'd document it with pix, witness statements and a call to the police. And then I'd see the range owners in court.

You only have rights if you stand up for them.

Spencer_OKC
June 27, 2010, 03:02 PM
Then you won't mind if I grab your wife's purse and begin rifling through it at the restuarant? If your wallet is on the table can I snatch it and begin going through it?

Yes I would mind, and I would challenge you about it immediately. That doesn't mean its a crime. I've already indicated that the range officer acted inappropriately, but its my opinion that he did not act criminally. I also wanted to make sure people were aware that Constitutional protections are protections against the government, not against your neighbor.

In your example, should we consider a pretext like there is in the original post that discounts the likelihood of larceny or robbery? Is the assailant in your scenario the waiter at the restaurant who has asked you if you have your free dessert coupon and then proceeds to search for it in your purse/wallet? I know my example may seem ridiculous, but its designed to demonstrate context. Would the waiter be correct in doing this, absolutely not, just like the range officer was out of line with his search of the range bag.

If there is no pretext, then what is the reasonable assumption when someone grabs a purse or wallet? The assumption is that they are trying to steal the purse. If the attempted taking is by stealth, then you have a larceny. If the taking is by force, then you have a robbery. In my state you would have every right to resist the crime with an appropriate level of force.

The problem with the original post is you have no taking, and you do have a pretext that indicates the range officer is not attempting to commit a crime.

If the search itself is a crime in some jurisdiction, I would like someone to post the specifics of the statute or ordinance.

PS Hopefully I don't seem confrontational, I'm just enjoying the discussion about this scenario and trying to demonstrate that just because someone is offended or violated does not automatically mean it is a police problem.

KodiakBeer
June 27, 2010, 03:06 PM
Yes I would mind, and I would challenge you about it immediately. That doesn't mean its a crime.

Sure it's a crime. Once you take possession of my property you've stolen it.

Spencer_OKC
June 27, 2010, 03:26 PM
Sure it's a crime. Once you take possession of my property you've stolen it.

Actually, its not. You need to research the legal concept of taking.

If the range officer (or your waiter) is challenged, and then refuses to relinquish the property then you have a trespass of chattels, a civil wrong and not a crime.

EddieNFL
June 27, 2010, 03:27 PM
I am concerned about the assertions of those who indicate they would resist the jerk RSO with physical force.

I'm taking my property back. If that's force...well, okay.

KodiakBeer
June 27, 2010, 03:38 PM
If the range officer (or your waiter) is challenged, and then refuses to relinquish the property then you have a trespass of chattels, a civil wrong and not a crime.

Then if he steals my car in the middle of the night when I can't challenge him, that's not theft either? I salute your "progressive" attitude on personal property, but I think I'll stick with the old stodgy view of what's mine is mine and you'd best keep your hands off it.

taliv
June 27, 2010, 03:47 PM
I don't mean to openly question a Mod

hey, question away. mod opinions aren't necessarily worth more than anyone elses'. :)

Still doesn't sound like he committed a crime. Obviously, i don't like it. but just because i don't like something doesn't mean there are laws against it

lilguy
June 27, 2010, 04:20 PM
Like other gun web site discussions, no one here is ever the problem and "my cold dead hands" is always bandied about. I say his heavy handed presentation was wrong but his authority should be unchallenged. We are told to represent the range in a positive way but the SOP is NOT debatable. One accident, shot over a berm or any other "mishap" can cost a range its existence.

We will not preserve our shooting heritage by wishing we all could shoot our our 30/30 out of our windows and not worry about impact areas. We need to show responsibility to those uninitiated folks that are new to shooting. SAFETY FIRST.

Deanimator
June 27, 2010, 04:36 PM
Like other gun web site discussions, no one here is ever the problem and "my cold dead hands" is always bandied about. I say his heavy handed presentation was wrong but his authority should be unchallenged. We are told to represent the range in a positive way but the SOP is NOT debatable. One accident, shot over a berm or any other "mishap" can cost a range its existence.

We will not preserve our shooting heritage by wishing we all could shoot our our 30/30 out of our windows and not worry about impact areas. We need to show responsibility to those uninitiated folks that are new to shooting. SAFETY FIRST.
What does ANY of THAT have to do with somebody searching somebody's range bag?

What if a colonoscopy is "SOP"? You can have all of the rules you want. I can question any of them I want. I may leave or you may eject me.

I will NOT allow you to go through my range bag. You're not the TSA and I don't HAVE to shoot on your range. Try to search me and I'm leaving with my gear. Try to stop me and you're going to regret it in oh so many ways.

KodiakBeer
June 27, 2010, 04:37 PM
I say his heavy handed presentation was wrong but his authority should be unchallenged.

No authority anywhere has the right to search me or my property without my permission. Ask, and the bag is yours to inspect. Don't ask, and you've just opened a can of worms bigger than your silly little RSO "authority" is capable of handling.

We are told to represent the range in a positive way


I assume that would include keeping your hands off of other peoples possessions.

Deanimator
June 27, 2010, 04:42 PM
If the range officer (or your waiter) is challenged, and then refuses to relinquish the property then you have a trespass of chattels, a civil wrong and not a crime.
I've never been to Oklahoma, but in Ohio, I'm pretty sure that if that range officer takes my bag, I demand its return and he refuses, that's a CRIMINAL theft, over and above any civil tort.

I'd also imagine that if he's carrying a firearm at the time, there's going to be some kind of firearms specification thrown in for good measure.

Coolbreeze8804
June 27, 2010, 04:48 PM
I'm an NRA RSO and at my club the SOP states RSO's are not to be challenged, what we say goes when on duty. You got a problem ,write a letter to the BOD.
Too many folks try to push the envelope, his approach was coarse but not inappropriate. You get belligerent the Sheriff is on speed dial.
Dude! We're you intentionally trying to light EVERYONE's fuse? You done GOOD!

My two guesses? 1) He thought it was someone he knew or should have known and that it was ok because of the relationship, or2) He just had no class or couth. You know, it takes a village and all that happy crap....

Either way, I would think that engaging him in the conversation at that time and telling him to get his mitts out of your bag would have solves the whole issue.

logical
June 27, 2010, 04:59 PM
Like other gun web site discussions, no one here is ever the problem and "my cold dead hands" is always bandied about. I say his heavy handed presentation was wrong but his authority should be unchallenged. We are told to represent the range in a positive way but the SOP is NOT debatable. One accident, shot over a berm or any other "mishap" can cost a range its existence.

We will not preserve our shooting heritage by wishing we all could shoot our our 30/30 out of our windows and not worry about impact areas. We need to show responsibility to those uninitiated folks that are new to shooting. SAFETY FIRST
"range officer" is a job title.....it is not an actual military rank or even a double naught spy classification. He is there to keep things operating safely. He has the same "authority" as the mouse at Chucky Cheese or the ticket taker at the movie theater or stadium. They can ask you to folow their rules or leave. They can ask to search your purse, jacket, bag...I can agree or leave. They can ask me not to smoke in the stadium...I can stop or leave. They can't sneak up on me and reach into my backpack ecause they think I might have a cigar in it.

You just plain can't go rifling through a bag...it doesn't make it OK just because it's at a gun range.

jeepguy
June 27, 2010, 05:50 PM
i know in ohio a police officer cant even open you bag,car,or enter your house without probable cause,warrant, or your permission. this man & i would have had a problem, one hour drive or not. he can ask me to look in my bag or ask me to show him my ammo, and i can either comply or leave. but he will not search my bag without my permission.

Deanimator
June 27, 2010, 06:00 PM
i know in ohio a police officer cant even open you bag,car,or enter your house without probable cause,warrant, or your permission.
That's not even pertinent, since that range officer has no power to search under ANY circumstances, RAS, PC OR Terry.

Range Officer != Police Officer

He has no more power to compel a search than the guy operating a hotdog cart in Cleveland's public square.

KodiakBeer
June 27, 2010, 06:17 PM
You WILL respect my authoritay!

http://dublinopinion.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/cartman-500-x-341.jpg

Spice
June 27, 2010, 06:33 PM
Hello, been lurking for a long while now and felt motivated to post on the subject...

It would be my impression, that given the following circumstances,
1) To search the bag, the RSO had to take possession of it.
2) The bag was physically unattended at the time the RSO took possession of it.
3) The RSO's intentions for taking possession of the bag were to prevent the shooter from using its contents until the RSO was satisfied that the contents of said bag were "safe" for the range.

these actions may constitute as Grand Theft of the third degree in the state of Florida. Pursuant to:
812.014 Theft. (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0812/SEC014.HTM&Title=-%3E2009-%3ECh0812-%3ESection%20014#0812.014)--

(1) A person commits theft if he or she knowingly obtains or uses, or endeavors to obtain or to use, the property of another with intent to, either temporarily or permanently:

(a) Deprive the other person of a right to the property or a benefit from the property.

...

I am unaware of any existing court rulings on the subject, and I would be very interested in the results of any test trial as precedent.

Also please see 812.131 Robbery by sudden snatching (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0812/SEC131.HTM&Title=-%3E2009-%3ECh0812-%3ESection%20131#0812.131)

I am not a lawyer. This post is meant to stimulate conversation and should not be construed as legal advice.

EddieNFL
June 27, 2010, 06:34 PM
I say his heavy handed presentation was wrong but his authority should be unchallenged.

Cause the authorities always know what's best for us. :uhoh:

Authority should be perpetually questioned.

killchain
June 27, 2010, 06:35 PM
Like other gun web site discussions, no one here is ever the problem and "my cold dead hands" is always bandied about. I say his heavy handed presentation was wrong but his authority should be unchallenged. We are told to represent the range in a positive way but the SOP is NOT debatable. One accident, shot over a berm or any other "mishap" can cost a range its existence.

We will not preserve our shooting heritage by wishing we all could shoot our our 30/30 out of our windows and not worry about impact areas. We need to show responsibility to those uninitiated folks that are new to shooting. SAFETY FIRST.

Don't change the subject.

The Range Safety Officer is rooting through a guy's bag without permission.

If the RSO doesn't like that he can look through my bag, he can play at the range alone... until his Board fires him.

nitetrane98
June 27, 2010, 06:43 PM
As to the question of rifling through the bag, are you telling me that there is no law preventing some random guy from going through the purse of the woman next to him, as long as she's not holding it?

That's pretty much it. There are little things called "elements of a crime that are written into a law. Each element has to be proven before a conviction can be obtained, (theoretically) As long as the person doesn't try to conceal or steal or get away with anything. Unfortunately there are no laws against simply being a rude, ill mannered, jerk.

A crime was being committed. You need a police report to to back up the civil suit, even if the police refuse to make an arrest.

What crime would that be and how would you have been harmed by him looking in your bag. Serious emotional distress, perhaps?

So the deputy shows up and says, What's going on?" you say, "That man over there was looking through my bag." deputy, "And......... ? Did he steal anything?" you say "No but I didn't give him permission, I want to file charges on him for violating my civil rights under the 4th amendment and sue him." deputy says "You spend a lot of time on the internet, don't you?"

Who would imagine that THR would have so many sue happy people on it and folks inclined to file false reports about theft from the contents of a bag? Everybody claims they don't want government intrusion in their lives but won't stand up for themselves and say, "*** are you doing in my bag, dude?" Instead they want to get bogged down with the police and courts. Get over it!

A bunch of wusses.

ALTOGETHER NOW!!! I SURE WISH HE HAD TRIED THAT WITH ME!!!

KodiakBeer
June 27, 2010, 06:54 PM
So the deputy shows up and says, What's going on?" you say, "That man over there was looking through my bag." deputy, "And......... ? Did he steal anything?" you say "No but I didn't give him permission, I want to file charges on him for violating my civil rights under the 4th amendment and sue him." deputy says "You spend a lot of time on the internet, don't you?"

Probably so, but I am going to make as big a stink as possible. If the busboys at my local restaurant start snatching my wife's purse and rifling through it, there will be legal and/or civil consequences. And if the busboy, er, RSO, at the local range starts rifling through my bag, there will also be consequences.

Actually, I'd far prefer to just punch the guy in the nose, but a good second best is to file a civil suit that will cost the range some money for hiring morons.

killchain
June 27, 2010, 07:04 PM
How is this any different than some guy snatching a woman's purse?

It's not. I would have probably ended up in jail in this situation because honestly, I would have bounced the RSO's head off of the table for even being in my bag.

No one, and I mean NO ONE searches my stuff without permission. I don't fly specifically because I don't need the TSA mafia taking my contact lens solution and toothpaste for their own private use, and the government can't do it... what makes you think some private citizen who just happens to be goody goody with the range owners can?!

You CAN'T. STAY AWAY FROM MY RANGE BAG.

[Yeah. I got heated. Whatever. Stay out of my range bag.]

searcher451
June 27, 2010, 07:08 PM
Filing a civil suit? Getting a deputy involved? Calling a lawyer? Come on, guys -- can't we solve our own problems?

"Excuse me, sir, but I'd appreciate it if you'd get your hands out of my range bag ... right this minute. You have no right to be in there, and you weren't invited to be in there, so please get your hands out of there -- right now."

What's wrong with that? What's he going to say? At worst: "I can get in there if I want to get in there." At which time, you pick up your range bag with his hand still inside it, zip it up as hard as you can, and leave, never to return that range again.

xcgates
June 27, 2010, 07:13 PM
How about stay away from my stuff in general. If you are interested in my stuff, by all means chat me up, I love talking to people, and I have started many a conversation, many based on what vehicle they have.

But to open up my car/backpack/duffelbag in a parking lot/restauraunt/whatever is not cool. If it a condition of using the property, fine. Tell me, and I will make the determination whether or not I want to use the property. For example, the track my dad and I used to go to on Sat nights had a big sign about things that weren't allowed, and they performed a cursory check of any big bags, or coolers. I never had a problem, because it was a "can I see the bag?", which meant I unzipped, held it open, they looked in, and then I went on my way.

They ask before looking in, though. If I refuse, the property owner (or their representative) can deny my use of their property.

::EDIT:: But really? Suing because someone put their grubby paws in a bag? Isn't this a place where the collective we complain about being an overly lawsuit-happy society?

EddieNFL
June 27, 2010, 07:47 PM
Filing a civil suit? Getting a deputy involved? Calling a lawyer? Come on, guys -- can't we solve our own problems?

No, we can't. Thanks to the progressives among us (more here that I was aware of), if the offended takes virtually any action other than calling the authorities, the offender becomes the victim and wrecks the life of another good guy.

My father's generation would have smacked the punk and if he chose to contact the authorities, he would have gotten a lecture about respecting other people's property. We're faaaar beyond that.

kgpcr
June 27, 2010, 08:17 PM
TSA Mafia?? What have they done that is so bad? Try and keep us safe?

Deanimator
June 27, 2010, 08:21 PM
TSA Mafia?? What have they done that is so bad? Try and keep us safe?
How does stealing from passengers "keep us safe"?

As a matter of fact, I think there was somebody who used to post here who caught one of them stuffing his travelers checks up his sleeve.

zxcvbob
June 27, 2010, 08:29 PM
Also please see 812.131 Robbery by sudden snatching: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0812/SEC131.HTM&Title=-%3E2009-%3ECh0812-%3ESection%20131#0812.131
And what does Florida say about the level of force that may be used to resist a 2nd or 3rd degree felony? (this ought to be good)

orionengnr
June 27, 2010, 09:08 PM
Great job lilguy.
Two posts, about 100 enemies. :rolleyes:
You have a lot of career choices ahead of you...
Thread-killer is the least of them.
In an attempt to remain THR, I won't get into the others... :)

lilguy
June 27, 2010, 09:13 PM
Finally, deadly force. An RSO wants to check your range bag, kill him if he doesn't say please.:what:

I thought Illinois was tough:scrutiny:

EddieNFL
June 27, 2010, 09:29 PM
I thought Illinois was tough

Ah, the Daley mindset. That explains a lot.

Justin
June 27, 2010, 09:32 PM
This thread has clearly gone stupid.

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