Are You Comfortable With Face To Face Transactioins?


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Phydeaux642
June 27, 2010, 05:03 PM
I've decided to sell some of my collection. I'm divorced and have no children, so, if something happened to me it would be left to my sister and mother to sell my guns as they have no interest in them at all. I don't shoot the majority of them anyway, I just bought them because I liked them. I thought that maybe if I sold some of them that I could use the money to buy a couple of really nice guns like a Les Baer 1911 and S&W PC wheelgun.

Anyway, shipping a handgun seems to be a real PITA if you don't have a nice FFL buddy to do it for a reasonable price. UPS and FedEx want an arm and a leg to ship a handgun which adds so much to the price of the gun that it turns a nice deal into a "I can get it cheaper at Bud's" kind of deal.

FTF is legal, so, why can't I get comfortable with the idea? I have no problem with it if I know the person, but for someone I don't know it leaves me feeling very uncomfortable. I know that there is really nothing I can do to find out if the party is legally able to purchase a firearm, and maybe I have no responsibility to do so, but I don't want to be the guy that puts a gun in the hand of someone that has less than honorable intentions with the purchase.

What are your feelings about FTF sales?

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dakotasin
June 27, 2010, 05:11 PM
i do as much due diligence as a reasonable person can, then make the sale. you might restrict your ftf sales to ccw-holders only, if that helps you.

kingpin008
June 27, 2010, 05:12 PM
I've sold two guns FTF before, and each time was a pleasure. I made sure to meet in a public place each time, and I asked the buyers to sign a bill of sale each time (which both happily did) but even without a bill of sale, I would feel comfortable doing FTF sales in the future.

PM incoming, btw.

smokin hot AR10
June 27, 2010, 05:14 PM
I am not trying to be funny here but do you not like to be a sociable person with people?

Just follow your state laws and you should be fine. Personally, if I sell a firearm I prefer to sell them at the Gun Show and I always ask to see a Drivers License for proof of age. I show them mine too.

About four years ago, I had to sell off most of my firearms to pay for lawyer fees when I was battling my ex in court.

Here in Ohio, I got a table at the Gun Show and put signs on it that said, “These Firearms are from my private Collection”. I never had any problems. My friend did the same thing and he sold an HK to a LEO.

wyocarp
June 27, 2010, 05:19 PM
I know that a lot of people feel responsible for whatever happens with a gun that they have owned. Certainly most of us might feel bad about someone using a gun for an illegal activity after we have sold it, but a gun is only a piece of metal.

We haven't made anyone a criminal by selling them a gun no more than a car dealer is responsible after selling a car to someone who kills a family while driving while intoxicated. Even though there are a lot of people killed in car accidents.

I recently bought and sold a gun that had been stolen. I didn't know it was stolen. The guy that bought it from me found out because he tried to pawn it. I could worry myself to death over it, but I didn't do anything wrong.

I think you have to get to the same place. There are an awful lot of guns bought and sold and have been through the years, as in millions. VERY few are used improperly.

senior
June 27, 2010, 05:19 PM
I really prefer FTF if possible, so far I've had no problems, just check D.L., perhaps a phone number to reach the person and then after talking and meeting that person, just go by gut instinct. Your right about shipping, even my FFL IS $20.00 and thats reasonable, then add shipping and insurance and ur looking at another $20.00, or common carrier if u have no FFL and like u said, those guys will suck the money from u to the tune of $50.00 or so.

Mags
June 27, 2010, 05:22 PM
I prefer FTF. Never at my or the other parties' home though. I prefer public place like the parking lot of a dept. store or at my local indoor range.

Coolbreeze8804
June 27, 2010, 05:31 PM
I've been doing FTF sales for years. At home, thier house, public places, etc. I've never had a problem, BUT... now things aren't like they used to be. I think I will stick to selling to folks I know from the range or CCW holders for the most part. It just makes me feel better.

General Geoff
June 27, 2010, 05:39 PM
There's enough demand for guns in my group of good friends that I never need to worry about selling to a total stranger. :)

That said, I don't think I'd worry too much if I did. I default to the position that a person is good-intentioned until he/she gives me a reason to believe they are not.

wishin
June 27, 2010, 05:49 PM
What are your feelings about FTF sales?

I have no apprehension about FTF gun deals. I just do what little I can to make sure, in my mind, that it's a good, clean sale.

Blackhawk30
June 27, 2010, 06:30 PM
i've done ftf for 30 yrs.I've never had a bad one.if they have the money,they get the gun.

MADDOG
June 27, 2010, 06:46 PM
What do you have for sale? Post them here. We are all friends and neighbors. BTW do you live in Texas?

Cap'n Jack Burntbeard
June 27, 2010, 06:59 PM
Of course I am, if the person has the cash or something of equal value to trade, we have a deal.

rbernie
June 27, 2010, 07:09 PM
What are your feelings about FTF sales?
First rule of life is to trust your instinct. I can usually tell in the emails and phone dialog whether I want to meet FTF. I then conduct FTF sales like any other human encounter - either I get a good vibe and proceed with the deal (assuming that the legalities are observed) or i don't and I simply walk away. I've never had to walk away from a FTF, but there are several potential deals that never got that far simply because the prospective buyer set off alarm bells during the email/phone exchange.

Once we meet, I usually look the prospective buyer in the eye and simply ask them - are you a resident of this state and are you legally allowed to buy this gun? You can tell from their response how to go from there...

Wolfebyte
June 27, 2010, 07:17 PM
My choices are always FTF, if not, then I'll put it on consignment at a local shop.

I just check the DL, I get the name and address for my records, and a brief bill of sale for me and them with the weapon info and serial number.

Arkansas Paul
June 27, 2010, 07:18 PM
I have no problem with ftf deals. In fact, I prefer them.

Bones11b
June 27, 2010, 07:28 PM
I usually require a look at the drivers license, and prefer if they bring a copy for me. I always make sure they sign a bill of sale, upon which I write down all the info from their drivers license. Other then that, common sense like doing transactions where I feel comfortable, is all I can recommend. Have never had a negative FTF transaction. Even met a few nice shooters over the years.

Dnaltrop
June 27, 2010, 07:39 PM
Do it at the local Range, preferably with witnesses. It goes without saying if You have the CCW, Use it.

Drivers license, and a "as is " bill of sale.

Personal experience leaves me unable to let strangers know where I live (craigslist Murder/robberies always stand out as the best reason) , It's just not the world many of us grew up in.

eatont9999
June 27, 2010, 07:43 PM
I would have no problem selling a firearm in a legitimate FTF sale. It is not in my control what people do with their firearms. Some one I sell to could massacre a group of people or save their lives with the gun I sold them. Be logical and use your reason with any sale. If they buyer wants to "get revenge" then don't sell. Otherwise, if the buyer is qualified by your applicable laws, you would be foolish to pass up a legitimate sale.

Buying is the questionable part of FTF sales. You never know if the weapon was used in a crime, so always get a bill of sale or some kind of confirmation or you could have a lot of 'splainin' to do.

Phydeaux642
June 27, 2010, 08:05 PM
I am not trying to be funny here but do you not like to be a sociable person with people?

I am really not quite sure what this has to do with my question.

Buying is the questionable part of FTF sales. You never know if the weapon was used in a crime, so always get a bill of sale or some kind of confirmation or you could have a lot of 'splainin' to do.

This is also something I get concerned about if I ever purchased a gun from someone I didn't know.

orionengnr
June 27, 2010, 08:17 PM
Not sure where you are, but here we have a Texas CHL forum. I generally buy and sell on this forum. Everyone there has a CHL, so they are "pre-screened" by the state.

I show him my CHL, he shows me his, we exchange money for merchandise and we go on our way.

I sleep well at night knowing I am dealing with a fellow TX CHL holder.

If you have an equivalent avenue, it is a pretty good option.

Ian
June 27, 2010, 08:20 PM
I'm quite comfortable with FTF sales. I've bought and sold guns at WalMarts, sporting goods stores, restaurants, apartments, private houses, and industrial warehouses. My favorite deal was buying a trunkload of AK parts kits at an abandoned gas station at 11pm (hey, the guy sounded ok...). :evil: I've never had any problems with a FTF. Quite the contrary - at one deal, I ended up with an unexpected Yugo M70 kit and receiver for $200 because the guy happened to have it with him, and $200 was all the extra cash I had on me. Another time I happened to overhear a guy getting offered next to nothing by a gun shop for some ed pieces, and got his KelTec P11 with ammo and a holster for $125 in the parking lot. Another guy I sold some AR mags to turned out to be a lonely old vet whose kids had no interest in guns. We ended up chatting for 20 or 30 minutes before I had to leave.

Yeah...I like FTF deals.

leadcounsel
June 27, 2010, 08:26 PM
I've done quite a few FTF transactions, mostly buying, and have had zero problems.

I prefer FTF - using FFLs adds generally 10-20% to the price of the gun on top of the bargain you usually get with an FTF.

Do your due diligence, get their contact information and name, ask the legally required questions, meet in a public place in broad daylight. Be aware of your surroundings, and be prepared to walk away if it feels dangerous. If you can CCW well then you should. Take a friend if you can. Always leave a note at home stating where you went and who you're meeting. Count your cash before you part ways.

Make sure you check their ID and ask if they are a felon and can legally own a handgun/rifle. Check their age. See if they are 'voter' on their ID. Felons can't vote.

Plan for the worst, of course, but I've rarely heard of a FTF going south, except FED stings. Oh- except MAKE SURE you see their ID. I once denied a sale of a handgun to a young guy, and he was underage. A short while afterward the FEDS were conducting stings and getting sellers selling to minors.

Again, other than STINGS (possibility) I've had zero issues, and most of the people I've met I end up chatting with for a short while before or after the transaction. Nice folks really.

IdahoLT1
June 27, 2010, 08:36 PM
Ive done a couplke FTF sells. Im always comfortable but my awareness level does increase 1 or 2 notches just im selling a merchandise they can easily steal. If youre really concered, you could only sell to CCW liscense holders so that way youre pretty sure they can legally possess a firearm. Or look for a way to check out their background. We have a site for Idaho that allows a person to quickly glance at tickets and/or arrest history of a person. https://www.idcourts.us/repository/partySearch.do

The 2 guns I sold face to face I asked for their first and last names before setting up a meeting date/time/place. Im going to see it anyway when I look at their ID so I could even access it on my phone.

FTSESQ
June 27, 2010, 08:39 PM
I have never had any problems, but I can see where it could get dicey.

LeontheProfessional
June 27, 2010, 08:41 PM
I just did my first FTF today and was a little nervous about it but I know realize that it is no big deal. What state do you live in? Some states have online guntraders which is the way to go because there is usually a feedback section. This way you can find out what type of person you are dealing with before you make the deal.

rainbowbob
June 28, 2010, 01:16 AM
I recently bought and sold a gun that had been stolen.

Wyocarp: I don't mean to pry, but it might be instructive to know what the "rest of the story" is.

Was the firearm confiscated - or did the buyer keep it?

Were there any recriminations for you?

If so, did you have any recourse with the person who sold it to you?

I'd be interested in knowing what if any liabilities there may be for buying, possessing, or selling a stolen gun unknowingly.

Nushif
June 28, 2010, 01:28 AM
Call me odd, but I sense a pretty deep distrust here.

Why would you *not* do an FTF if it all seems kosher? If the person is calm cool and collected and signs all the right paperwork, it's frankly not your duty to do any preliminary policing.
I mean, the question here is, would you sell to me, considering I have tats, am under 30 and likely to show up in cargo shorts and some loose clothing already carrying a gun?

I guess while personal the question here really as is as to why we, the gun owners are doing some sort of perceived profiling or police work? It's neither in our jurisdiction nor is it our specialty.

Killermonkey21
June 28, 2010, 04:36 AM
When I returned from my deployment overseas and was stationed at NC I had to wrangle with the County to get them to give me a Pistol Purchase Permit, as I was over 18 but under 21. So, all of my deals were FTF. One or two of the guys were hesitant as I didn't have a NC ID, but my .mil ID and the Permit were enough to settle their fears and I walked away with a USP 9c, a SW MP .45, a High Standard .45, SIG 228, and a Glock 22 respectively. All different people, all met in a public place, all were civil transactions with all legalities observed.

Trust your instincts, use common sense, and observe any legalities of your state, and FTF transactions can be just fine, in my limited experience.

ChCx2744
June 28, 2010, 05:10 AM
All my previous sales have been FTF. First time I was a bit nervous, but the subsequent times it just seemed casual. I prefer FTF over any other selling or buying method.

bigfatdave
June 28, 2010, 05:25 AM
Phydeaux642, I've only done face-to-face a few times, but it doesn't bother me one bit to do so. Your state would help to nail down the legal requirements, but generally the seller has no duty to do a background check or anything other than verify state residence and ask if the buyer is a prohibited person.
Xavier's blog has a sample bill of sale you could use if it makes you feel better, you could restrict to CC permit holders, or you could bluff in the EMail/phone portion and ask if they mind going through your local FFL.
People reluctant to do those things can be passed over easily, once again, if it makes you feel better.

You are not responsible for someone else's criminal actions, and a buyer is trusting YOU quite a bit to not sell them a defective, stolen, or NFA gun, so the civilized thing to do is meet somewhere neutral and somewhat public, do a bill of sale, show whatever ID makes everyone feel better, and do the transaction like a pair of friendly citizens, not two potential criminals.

So, where are you, and what do you want to unload?

Victor1Echo
June 28, 2010, 09:53 AM
Living in California with so many laws, if I moved out of this state to a friendly state, I would be scared to death to think "oh my god is this legel? I can understand your fear.

Someone said it earlier, post them on here for a face to face transaction. We're sort of like family here.

GunsAmerica Fan
June 28, 2010, 10:27 AM
I think that getting a PO box and selling online is the smartest way to sell guns, no bias intended because of GA. It is what I do. We even started a service that our gun dealers provide called "drop off locations. " The dealers ship out your gun for a nominal fee. It is so people could keep both themselves from being "cased" by bad guys and so that they could make sure there was a bound book in the custody chain of the gun if needed in the future for custody checks.

Phydeaux642
June 28, 2010, 11:04 AM
Thanks for the suggestions about looking into a state CCW forum and listing FTF sales on that site . I did and found out that the forum for my state is in the middle of being dissolved for various reasons, one of which seems to be the declining interest in it.

pharmer
June 28, 2010, 02:42 PM
FTF is the best way to trade firearms. At a show, obvious. Locally, use "prudent" judgement. If a guy is hot to buy your Jennings 9mm for $700, run away. If a guy nickel-and-dimes you endlessly over minutiae before agreeing to the deal, he's probably a "gun guy." Ask to see his DL just in case. Joe

Arkady
June 28, 2010, 02:56 PM
I've done a few FTF transactions. I always look at their CWP (no permit, no sale), and make sure we're not alone--gun show is good, or I'll handle the sale at my work. I run a specialty retail store (Cigar shop), and make sure that another customer who I know is present at the time of the transaction.

Ledgehammer
June 28, 2010, 03:10 PM
Do it at the local Range, preferably with witnesses. It goes without saying if You have the CCW, Use it.

Drivers license, and a "as is " bill of sale.

Personal experience leaves me unable to let strangers know where I live (craigslist Murder/robberies always stand out as the best reason) , It's just not the world many of us grew up in.


+1 this is pretty much the way I do it. I even have us both write up a bill of sale with signatures dl number and permit numbers if they have it. You can usually tell if somebody is shady or not. I still do it in public and cc just in case.

M2 Carbine
June 28, 2010, 03:14 PM
I have no problem with ftf deals. In fact, I prefer them.
I've been doing FTF sales for almost 60 years.

The most I will do is glance at a person's Driver's License or carry license to see that they are a state resident. I even tell them to cover up their name and address.
I give no info, name, address, etc, and I ask for none.
I want the gun's paper trail to end right there. I love to end the paper trail on a gun.:D


A lot of people are spooked if they don't get a Bill of Sale, etc.
If the person doesn't look "right" to me I don't do business with them.

Some years back a Police Detective called me about a gun I had bought from a dealer. The gun had been used in a killing. They tracked me 1,400 miles and that was before computers.
I told the Detective I had sold the gun a couple years before (legally FTF) and I had no idea who has it.
The Detective thanked me for my time.
That was the last I ever heard about it.


My friends and I figure a gun's value is increased by at least $100 if it doesn't have a paper trail.

Ledgehammer
June 28, 2010, 03:38 PM
Yea the value goes up - if your a criminal I guess. I'm sure your judgement is sound but I wouldn't be able to sleep with out some info on who I just sold to - I would be worried the police would show up at my door If the gun was used in a crime, since the serial number pulls up my name.

That's a bunch of unecessary hassle to go through.

CapnMac
June 28, 2010, 03:40 PM
Well, many of the gun show deals I've done were FTF, if just with dealers I'd never met before.
Part of it, for me, may be in dealing with folk here, which is also a form of screening.
Never had anybody balk at giving enough information to fill out a bill of sale.
Maybe I'm lucky. never really thought about it.

NavyLCDR
June 28, 2010, 04:21 PM
What are your feelings about FTF sales?

I've bought and sold several guns FTF. I ask for a DL to look at (not copy) for state residency. I ask why they want the gun (or tell them why I want their gun) and if they give me a reasonable answer, I take the money, give them the gun, get a signed receipt from them for the gun, I give them a signed receipt for the money and that's it. About 5 minutes for the whole deal. Then I usually lose the receipt in about a week anyway :rolleyes:

rondog
June 28, 2010, 06:30 PM
True story. I bought a Winchester Trapper from a feller in a FTF deal. I pulled up outside his office building, he just happened to be outside at the time. Pleasantries were exchanged, and he said "the rifle's upstairs in my office".

So, we go upstairs, get off the elevator and head for his office. Big, bold letters on the door, "FBI Field Office". I nearly drained myself down both legs!

Turned out he was a helluva nice guy, just very businesslike about it. I got a nice rifle for a good price, all he wanted was a bill of sale. He did keep the rifle in a case and in his possession until we got to my vehicle, then we discretely transferred it and parted ways.

But I've made several purchases FTF, and at least one sale. Never had a problem. Now, if the other party looked like a gangbanger, tweaker, or other lowlife, I'd suddenly develop the wrong identity and NOT be the expected other party to the transaction. "Ron who? Naw man, not me, I'm Joe. Joe Mama."

M2 Carbine
June 28, 2010, 09:05 PM
So, we go upstairs, get off the elevator and head for his office. Big, bold letters on the door, "FBI Field Office". I nearly drained myself down both legs!

That's a good one.:D

I once met a Houston Policeman in a McDonald's parking lot at night.
I bought a 45ACP HK P9S from him.
I wish I had more money, he had a nice S&W and AR to.

No names, BOS, or info exchanged, except he showed me his badge and I was in my pilot's uniform.

22-rimfire
June 28, 2010, 09:14 PM
I have only sold face to face at gunshows. Some gunshops do consignments. It costs, but every gun is run through the FFL and the sale is done per the book. It also takes essentially no effort on your part. You set the prices and when they sell, they sell. The dealer will straighten you out if the prices are too high.

leadcounsel
June 28, 2010, 09:22 PM
1 gun per month is a good goal! I need over 400 to meet my goal! :)

JHK94
June 29, 2010, 01:46 AM
A little off topic, but I got a little tickled the last time I sold a a gun FTF. A on-the-fence/anti- gun friend of my wife's was over, and I got a call on my phone, and had to go. Our friend said "where do you have to go???"

Me: "uhh, I have to go sell a gun to a guy in a gas station parking lot..."

Worked out great!

sernv99
June 29, 2010, 11:51 AM
I live in VA and we are allowed to do FTF sales. I will not do a FTF sale unless the buyer goes through a dealer for a transfer. I prefer the gun to be "out of my name" if the gun is ever used in a crime. If the buyer can't pony up $20 for a transfer fee, it usually means he can't legally own the firearm to begin with.

Trying to "feel" someone out over the phone, via email, or in person, is not a foolproof way to guard against some degenerate bent on conducting a criminal act. There are people out there that have a cool demanor but who have reasons unknown to you that they can't legally possess a firearm and are intent on using it for illegal purposes. I would rather not be a part of that scenario. I don't need LE hassling me (e.g. asking for a bill of sale to clear my name), and I don't need the victim's families hassling me with a lawsuit, if there was a case of serious injury or death resulting from the buyer using the firearm I sold him. In this day and age, people want to litigate for every little thing.

just another view to consider. I would not even sell to my friends or relatives without a dealer transfer. I have relatives that I thought were normal, only to find out one way or another they got themsevles into drugs, violent domestic disputes, etc.

How about foreign residents obtaining state driver's licenses? Here in the DC metro area, MD issues drivers licenses to illegal aliens!!! (now I heard they are reviewing this and making it harder for illegals to obtain a driver's license) Even foreign residents who are here legally on a tourist visa can get a MD driver's license!! How do I know? Because a relative of a friend of mine is living in VA, using his friend's MD address, is on a 6 month tourist visa, and got a MD driver's licence, good for several months. ***:what: My friend drove him to the MD DMV to take the road test and they issued him a DL the same day...sorry but I believe in only US citizens having the right to keep and bear arms.

DeepSouth
June 29, 2010, 12:03 PM
shipping a handgun seems to be a real PITA if you don't have a nice FFL buddy to do it for a reasonable price.

You might want to look futher into this. In most states you can ship a firearm to a FFL. You just can't receive one, and if your selling off then you want be receiving.



Also if the person you are selling to has a carry permit, then you can be sure they are legal. I wouldn't mind showing you mine but some folks would offended, your call. I personally don't mind a FTF transaction at all, just exchange property for money, say thank you and walk off.. But people are different.

mcdonl
June 29, 2010, 12:09 PM
First rule of life is to trust your instinct. I can usually tell in the emails and phone dialog whether I want to meet FTF.

Yeah, you got that. Sold a gun and the guy simply asked... "does it come with a loaded clip?" It was a 9mm semi auto, I said you know what... it's not for sale anymore. I also stick to people with a Maine CCW unless I know them.

As far as buying FTF, I like to buy at a range/pit so I can try it first. I bought an SKS that jammed like mad and ever since then I like to go through a mag or two...

NMGonzo
June 29, 2010, 12:24 PM
Post the guns for sale on the sale section and be done.

I have not bought a gun in a store yet.

NavyLCDR
June 29, 2010, 03:16 PM
I live in VA and we are allowed to do FTF sales. I will not do a FTF sale unless the buyer goes through a dealer for a transfer. I prefer the gun to be "out of my name" if the gun is ever used in a crime. If the buyer can't pony up $20 for a transfer fee, it usually means he can't legally own the firearm to begin with.

So let me get this straight.... you want the BUYER to pay the transfer fee to alleviate YOUR fears and to benefit YOU? Ummm.... let me think about that. Nope. Does not pass my common sense check.

Phydeaux642
June 29, 2010, 07:45 PM
You might want to look futher into this. In most states you can ship a firearm to a FFL.

But, the shipping through UPS or FedEx is incredibly expensive. They really penalize you for shipping a handgun.

stchman
June 29, 2010, 07:49 PM
I have made a couple of FTF transactions. I always ask them this question:

"Can you pass a NICS check"

If they say yes then I am OK. I then ask for some ID, and make out a bill of sale.

If someone refuses to show me a DL and does not want to sign a bill of sale then something is fishy, and I would not do the transaction.

jbauch357
June 29, 2010, 07:55 PM
I've sold/bought face to face many times with no paperwork and without checking any credentials. If they give you a bad vibe just call off the sale, otherwise don't sweat it.

LeontheProfessional
June 29, 2010, 09:30 PM
I just did my second ever FTF sale today and have to say that I could really get used to it. It ends the paper trail on the gun and there is no fee.

Nushif
June 30, 2010, 01:54 AM
...sorry but I believe in only US citizens having the right to keep and bear arms.

Just wow ...

But in any case, I'd have absolutely no problems selling a gun face to face unless the person is really shady. And I do mean really shady.
The problem with these horror scenarios is that if we overanalyze every move the potential buyer is making we're no better than ye olde nasty government who "wants to take our guns away."
The nature of rights is that they're not necessarily fun or easy or even good for everyone, but the moment we decide to deprive others of them, we're the ones who are depriving them the right, logically.
Now, I'm not saying we should sell to someone we know to not be able to own a firearm legally, but I am saying that all this talk of "I don't like their face" (which is exactly what it is) reeks oddly of the first step to the logic that "only the people whose face I like should own guns." And I don't think anyone who isn't on this board purely by accident can get behind that logic.

Edit:

Actually now that I'm thinking about it, the question here isn't so much about FTF transfers, but rather about the private citizen conducting firearms business. A certified dealer, for instance is no different than the average citizen in terms of power. Sure he has access to background checks and as such is held to a higher standard when it comes to the sale of firearms, but the law is written so that an individual lacking said access can still do business (in a more limited sense, of course) without being faced with legal ramifications.
So yes, the question here really is, "Who do you feel should own a firearm?"
I guess my feeling on that is that, unless I know either by their admittance or by some other source that they are not legally able to carry a firearm, I will sell to them. I am in the clear, legally and if I denied the the right to lawfully buy a firearm because for some reason I "didn't like their face" I'd be a hypocrite. The key piece of my logic here is a simple principle, name the one of wanting to be treated fairly.
I wouldn't want to be denied a firearm, because the seller didn't like ... oh .. my tats, my wife (who has even more than me,) my lifestyle, my car, my proverbial "face." Culture or "properness" is so varied that frankly any pretense that I can judge who is reputable or credible is false, simply because I don't know.
Take for example a "traditional" pacific islander who wants to buy my Mossy.
I am sitting in a parking lot and here comes this guy covered in ink and a nicely lowered car (just for cliché's sake) with some music of indeterminable language coming out of it. He steps out of it and walks up to me (with my tank-top, ink and metal coming from my car) and says "Yo, you the guy who's selling the Mossy?"
I say "Sure! You Bob?
He says "Yup. Been wanting one of those for a while now. Can I take a look?" I hand him the shotgun and he looks it over, nods and says "Nice. Just the workhorse you said." Satisfied, I grin and nod and say "Yup, it hurts parting with it, but I'm sure it's going to a good home."
We exchange some money and a bill of sale, that I copied from some legalese website and go on our merry way.

This scenario is as likely as it is controversial to let's say ... any white-collar kinda businessman with highly conservative values.
Clearly through our clothing, our vehicles and our language we've looked anything but "professional" and as such should clearly not own a firearm.
What he doesn't know, is that both our vehicles are paid for by a paycheck, courtesy of the U.S Army and that the "traditional pacific islander" is a shooting buddy of mine, who liked the look of my shotgun and is better with it than I am.

The fact is that we as private citizens simply don't have the means to know a "legitimate" person from a "non legitimate" one. And while it's our right to not sell to someone whose face we don't like, unless they give us a good legal reason to not sell to them very remotely we are kind of undermining the fair and legal distribution of firearms in accordance with the second amendment.

rondog
June 30, 2010, 02:23 AM
If the buyer/seller shows up and looks kinda shady, maybe has a "buddy" with him, and their heads keep swiveling around like they're looking for cops or witnesses, you might want to reconsider the transaction.

bigfatdave
June 30, 2010, 04:04 AM
If the buyer/seller shows up and looks kinda shady, maybe has a "buddy" with him, and their heads keep swiveling around like they're looking for cops or witnesses, you might want to reconsider the transaction. Maybe they showed up like that because they're worried that YOU are a scumbag?

rondog
June 30, 2010, 04:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rondog
If the buyer/seller shows up and looks kinda shady, maybe has a "buddy" with him, and their heads keep swiveling around like they're looking for cops or witnesses, you might want to reconsider the transaction.

Maybe they showed up like that because they're worried that YOU are a scumbag?


Naw man, I'm a teddy bear!

bigfatdave
June 30, 2010, 05:12 AM
Naw man, I'm a teddy bear! The point is that a buyer is giving you a lot of trust when they show up, in fact they are about guaranteed to be meeting a "man with a gun", and be bringing cash to a "man with a gun" so you shouldn't be surprised if they take precautions or have some situational awareness, or look a bit nervous.

We wouldn't have problems with FTF transactions if a few things changed
1 - if people acted rational about firearms and treated them like tools
2 - if the default attitude was to treat a fellow citizen the way you would like to be treated, not like a potential felon
3 - if the paranoia about "paper trails" and future uses would go away

45bthompson
June 30, 2010, 08:22 AM
I have done f2f mostly at gun show parking lots. Once was purchasing an AMT backup with wallet holster. I was a little nervous but the guy seemed very professional. After the sale he told me not to carry the pistol in the holster because that makes it an AOW. I said ok but gave him a quizzical look that must have said "what do you care? YOU just sold it to me". Then he showed me his badge!

sernv99
June 30, 2010, 09:48 AM
So let me get this straight.... you want the BUYER to pay the transfer fee to alleviate YOUR fears and to benefit YOU? Ummm.... let me think about that. Nope. Does not pass my common sense check.

so let me get this straight....you want me, the SELLER, to take a buyer's word that he can pass the NICS and also judge him from his cool demeanor that he isn't hiding something that a background check would find out?? Let me think about that....Nope! Does not pass my common sense test.

sernv99
June 30, 2010, 10:09 AM
The fact is that we as private citizens simply don't have the means to know a "legitimate" person from a "non legitimate" one.

you just proved my point......let the burden fall on the FFL and the federal NICS, etc.




I have made a couple of FTF transactions. I always ask them this question:

"Can you pass a NICS check"

If they say yes then I am OK

mmmmm, yeah, ok....... usually when someone is prevented from possessing a firearm due to one of the various reasons as outlined by the NICS, chances are the person is not going to answer truthfully. so how do you know the buyer is answering truthfully? See my post above: let the burden fall on the FFL and NICS.

Tallinar
June 30, 2010, 11:56 AM
I've done three FTF sales, two of which have been handguns. As others have said, just be sure to give your due diligence and follow your state laws. I live in Iowa.

When selling handguns, I require the buyer to show me their permit to acquire, CC license, or FFL. If you really wanna cover yourself, ask them to show their driver's license, and jot down the DL number.

If you have any reservations about the character of the buyer at all, simply take your gun elsewhere.

I had two pistols posted on Gunlistings.org once, and I had a very interested party who wanted both. He said he'd have the money next week and we were discussing a meeting place. When I reminded him over e-mail to make sure his permit or CC license were up to date, he responded back with "they wont let me renew mine cuz i was arested for a felony charge even though it was dropped"

So yeah.... lol

NavyLCDR
June 30, 2010, 01:17 PM
so let me get this straight....you want me, the SELLER, to take a buyer's word that he can pass the NICS and also judge him from his cool demeanor that he isn't hiding something that a background check would find out?? Let me think about that....Nope! Does not pass my common sense test.

Why not? I am trusting you that the gun is not stolen. I am trusting you that there isn't something wrong with the gun. So, by your same standards, you should provide proof that your gun is not stolen before you attempt to sell it. Personally, I don't like giving the government more power than they require. The requirement is:

18 USC 922(a)(5):
who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in the State in which the transferor resides...

18 USC 922(d):
(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person—

18 USC 922(x):
(x)
(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile—

and on the buyers part, 18 USC 922 (j):
(j) It shall be unlawful for any person to receive... knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that the firearm or ammunition was stolen.


Notice the common language? Knows or reasonable cause to believe. So, by requiring proof that the person is not prohibited from possessing the gun, in my personal opinion, we are furthering the idea propagated by the anti-gun groups that those desiring to obtain guns are guilty until proven innocent. I did not pay for my CPL to prove to you or anyone else that I am lawful to buy/possess a gun. I paid for my CPL for the privilege of concealing my gun if I choose to do so and to carry my gun loaded in my car.

I have no problem with the NICS check, if I choose to buy a gun from an FFL, because that is the law. But I take exception, personally, to feeding the idea that those desiring to obtain guns are criminals until proven otherwise. In the realm of FTF firearms transactions, I will judge a book by its cover. If it looks good, then I will do it. If it don't look good, then I won't. But I am not going to further the government's and the anti-gun groups' desire to control every firearm transaction. And I am not going to violate another person's 4th amendment rights to privacy by requiring a copy of or record of their identifcation document.

Just One Shot
June 30, 2010, 01:53 PM
I prefer the FTF deal. You get to meet some really nice, like minded people this way!
:)

sernv99
June 30, 2010, 01:59 PM
I am trusting you that the gun is not stolen. I am trusting you that there isn't something wrong with the gun. So, by your same standards, you should provide proof that your gun is not stolen before you attempt to sell it. Personally, I don't like giving the government more power than they require.


No one is forcing you to purchase my firearm or any other firearm through a private sale....the burden is on the buyer, not the seller. If you want it, then you deal with the seller's rules. Caveat Emptor. So your "logic" is flawed.

And your last statement just proves that you are a member of the tin-foil hat brigade. Gee, by your username, I assume you served under this big bad government that you so despise? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

NavyLCDR
June 30, 2010, 02:37 PM
And your last statement just proves that you are a member of the tin-foil hat brigade.

That's funny right there! Notice in my statement I said "by YOUR standards". I said nothing at all about it being my standards! All I am saying is it is a two way street.... and you're right, it's just a private deal and both parties have every right in the world to just move one. And both parties also have the right to be in disagreement with each other.

Gungnir
June 30, 2010, 02:55 PM
No one is forcing you to purchase my firearm or any other firearm through a private sale....the burden is on the buyer, not the seller. If you want it, then you deal with the seller's rules. Caveat Emptor. So your "logic" is flawed.

No, however, if the seller wishes to sell something then the buyer has to be prepared to abide by the sellers conditions and may well request additional conditions on the sale, should the seller not be upfront about the conditions he requires for the sale to proceed. I certainly wouldn't buy from someone who on meeting face to face put a whole bunch of requirements and additional charges on top of the original advertised sale. If you think this is not an issue to most buyers, try advertising your next sale with your requirements, see how many people respond. Of course I'm sure that you can rationalize this as, well they probably couldn't legally buy it anyway.

I suggest you read the following http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=12&issue=020 to learn about how a firearm trace works, so you can see for yourself that the delusion that you're under is that operating as you do "removes your name from the firearm" it does not nor cannot remove the record of your initial purchase (by an unlicensed owner) of a new firearm. Which would be the first point of call in any BATF firearm trace.


And your last statement just proves that you are a member of the tin-foil hat brigade. Gee, by your username, I assume you served under this big bad government that you so despise? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Ad Hominem, I guess a bunch of folks who wrote the constitution were tin-foil hat wearers too, since they actually structured a legal system in an attempt to minimize government, and at that point there wasn't any real government to speak of, how paranoid was that? Restricting a government that didn't even exist, sheesh those guys must have been completely out of their trees.

sernv99
June 30, 2010, 04:38 PM
I certainly wouldn't buy from someone who on meeting face to face put a whole bunch of requirements and additional charges on top of the original advertised sale. If you think this is not an issue to most buyers, try advertising your next sale with your requirements, see how many people respond. Of course I'm sure that you can rationalize this as, well they probably couldn't legally buy it anyway.

sold two handguns to VA residents who did not mind going through a FFL (and pay for the transfer fee). Sold two high cap military style rifles to VA residents who did not mind going through a FFL (and paying for the transfer fee). So I guess there are people out there willing to pay for the meager $20 transfer fee my FFL charges to complete the sale.....hmm, ain't that somethin':what:

I suggest you read the following http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Article...d=12&issue=020 to learn about how a firearm trace works, so you can see for yourself that the delusion that you're under is that operating as you do "removes your name from the firearm" it does not nor cannot remove the record of your initial purchase (by an unlicensed owner) of a new firearm. Which would be the first point of call in any BATF firearm trace.

you must live in another country where people do not like to litigate over the smallest of things.....so what you are saying some greedy lawyer will not try to litigate and pin the blame on me as the cause of someone's unfortunate death or injury (if the firearm was used in the commision of a crime or accidental discharge)? You do know that you must respond to any litigation action filed against you. Sorry, I do not have free time like you to muck around with LE and lawyers (and to retain a lawyer if need be) to show that I did a FTF sale within the confines of my state laws.

Ad Hominem, I guess a bunch of folks who wrote the constitution were tin-foil hat wearers too, since they actually structured a legal system in an attempt to minimize government, and at that point there wasn't any real government to speak of, how paranoid was that? Restricting a government that didn't even exist, sheesh those guys must have been completely out of their trees.

Ad Nauseam.....I guess if you really fear the US Govt, you should move to another country. I am sure the men and women who serve in the military, yesterday, today, and tomorrow, are a real threat to you. Maybe you would do better in Canada???

ForumSurfer
June 30, 2010, 04:53 PM
If the buyer/seller shows up and looks kinda shady, maybe has a "buddy" with him, and their heads keep swiveling around like they're looking for cops or witnesses, you might want to reconsider the transaction.

:neener: That's me! I've met for a deal before fresh out of the gym so not only was I dressed shady, but I was sweating profusely and looking over my shoulder because I passed an exgirlfriend in the parking lot!

Seriously, trust your instincts. If the guys seems shady to you, back out. Meet in a reasonably public place (back of a parking lot) where people won't run screaming "they've got guns!" yet you won't be cornering yourself into a lonely, isolated area.

I only sell to people with ccw permits or at least a handgun purchase permit (required in my state if not a ccw holder), which I keep.

I don't like out of state deals. I may make more money that way, but my profits get eaten up mostly by time, aggravation and FFL fees. Maybe one day I'll make a friend who is an FFL dealer.

Don't forget to search the buyer/seller ratings here. If the member has dealt with other members, they may have ratings posted.

NavyLCDR
June 30, 2010, 05:00 PM
Ad Nauseam.....I guess if you really fear the US Govt, you should move to another country. I am sure the men and women who serve in the military, yesterday, today, and tomorrow, are a real threat to you. Maybe you would do better in Canada???

I think we have a disconnect here as to what I and Gungnir are saying regarding the US Government. The founding fathers realized, and we should remember, that a government controlled by the citizens left to operate with no restraints will become a government that controls it's citizens. If you don't think that is possible in the United States then I would suggest you take a hard look at what happened with the health care bill. I would suggest you look at what has happened in states like New York, New Jersey and California and cities like Chicago and NYC in the area of gun control. If allowed, the government WILL disarm the citizen in a heartbeat, because an armed citizen is the biggest threat to government control.

As far as despising the government, I don't depise the government. However, if you look at the oath that I took, it says that I do solemnly swear to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

That is my first duty, is to the Constitution. My second duty is the second half of the oath - and to obey the orders of the President of the United states. Now.... what if those two statements come into conflict with each other and I cannot fulfill both portions of the oath at the same time? I will fall back on the first statement and defend the Constitution.

Our founding fathers recognized that throughout history, unchecked governments have repeatedly become tyrannies. Our government is no different. My oath is to defend the Constitution which says that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. That is why I make the statement I will not support giving the government more power to control firearms transactions than what is legally required.

Sauer Grapes
June 30, 2010, 06:02 PM
All of my FTF sales have gone without a hitch. Only one was a handgun, but I knew the buyer. I like to have a nice long conversation on the phone prior to meeting them. If I sell a handgun, they have to meet me at an FFL dealer or I won't consider the sale under any circumstance.

Gungnir
June 30, 2010, 06:17 PM
sold two handguns to VA residents who did not mind going through a FFL (and pay for the transfer fee). Sold two high cap military style rifles to VA residents who did not mind going through a FFL (and paying for the transfer fee). So I guess there are people out there willing to pay for the meager $20 transfer fee my FFL charges to complete the sale.....hmm, ain't that somethin':what:

I'm sure you have, did you include your constraints on selling when you advertised those firearms? If not then it proves nothing, only that the inconvenience and additional expense were less of an inconvenience than being a deal breaker. Personally if I had to go to an FFL to get a transfer on a private sale then I'm going direct to an FFL, that way if the firearm is faulty (and not bought as is) I have recourse to that business, and I know that any legal issues (for instance accidentally buying a stolen firearm) falls more on the FFL than on me.


you must live in another country where people do not like to litigate over the smallest of things.....so what you are saying some greedy lawyer will not try to litigate and pin the blame on me as the cause of someone's unfortunate death or injury (if the firearm was used in the commision of a crime or accidental discharge)? You do know that you must respond to any litigation action filed against you. Sorry, I do not have free time like you to muck around with LE and lawyers (and to retain a lawyer if need be) to show that I did a FTF sale within the confines of my state laws.


Maybe I do, one that has a larger degree of freedom than you seem to be used to, or perhaps I have a more Laissez-Faire attitude to life.

I live in Alaska, there is no waiting period for any firearms purchases or restrictions in numbers we can buy except for the restriction of your pocket book, we need no permits to concealed carry (although you can obtain one for carry in reciprocity states) anyone who can legally possess a firearm can conceal carry it, we can easily obtain NFA weapons if we so desire (effectively shall issue on NFA classified weapons from SBS/SBR to Destructive Devices its law that the CLEO complete the certification in a timely manner), carry loaded rifles in our trucks, open carry at our whim. According to state law non-violent felons can own firearms too after they complete their sentence and 10 years have passed (http://www.ktva.com/ci_15353064?source=most_viewed), and manufacture of any firearm (including Fully Automatic) is perfectly legal under state law as long as it's stamped made in Alaska and is not for sale outside of the state (this has yet the be tested, but Montana is also doing the same, so we'll find out about that).


Ad Nauseam.....I guess if you really fear the US Govt, you should move to another country. I am sure the men and women who serve in the military, yesterday, today, and tomorrow, are a real threat to you. Maybe you would do better in Canada???

Do not mistake patriotism with nationalism, they're entirely different things. I do not fear the Military in any way, I know a large number of them both currently active and retired and surprisingly they all seem to share very similar political views to me, including views on the Federal Government.

As Thomas Paine said "That Government is best that governs least" I happen to agree with that statement. I would hardly call belief that following the constitution is despising the Federal Government (even if the Federal Government may be exceeding powers delegated in the constitution). However much like any dog every now and again a government needs to be brought to heel and remember who its master is, otherwise it can mistakenly believe that it's its own master, this is not good in a dog, and can be very dangerous in a government.

Schofield3
June 30, 2010, 06:30 PM
I think it’s been said throughout the thread, that you really just need to use good sense about your sales or trades.
Try to simplify matters by thinking that you’re selling you firearm in a garage sale, it’s nothing more than a personal asset that you are wishing to sell. If there is a reasonable buyer and you two agree on terms- sell.
Face to face deals are some of the best deals out there. Know your local laws and handle yourself accordingly.

Schofield3
June 30, 2010, 06:33 PM
On a side note I always get kind of a laugh out of human nature – you see people all day long giving out there names, numbers & addresses to sell cars, motorcycles, furniture and so on but the second a gun is mentioned for sale people clam up - they don’t want to give out any info and become paranoid. :D I guess guns just have that nature about them…

Schofield3
June 30, 2010, 06:38 PM
I also want to say a Cheers to all the fellow New Mexicans who I've dealt with and have always had smooth transactions. We have some of the best responsible gun owners around.

inSight-NEO
June 30, 2010, 07:27 PM
Generally speaking, I am okay with the idea. In fact, I recently sold a handgun this very same way.

I, like you, felt initially hesitant about the idea. In order to assuage my concerns I did the following: met the potential buyer at a familiar location (in this case, outside of my local gun range), had a friend accompany me, had 2 "unofficial" printed documents which contained the date of sale, what I was selling, who I was selling it to, etc., along with a "disclaimer" acknowledging that upon sale, I was no longer responsible for how the weapon was to be used....this, of course, was signed by both myself and the buyer, along with my friend (as a witness to the transaction). Also, since I "met" this individual on a weapons forum, I saved all conversations between myself and this individual, regarding the sale.

In addition, I requested the buyer bring a printed copy of a current drivers license (for verification purposes) and insisted that this be further verified by showing me the actual license. I, in turn, showed him my license so he could verify that I was legit and old enough to sell such a weapon.

All of this information I still keep and will always keep. Official? Maybe not. Useful? Definitely.

Thing is, selling a gun this way [to a stranger] certainly brings up several concerns. But, I generally think that it can be safely done, given the necessary precautions. Outside of that, there is not much one can do other than to simply go through a recognized FFL dealer.

Would I always do a "face to face" transaction? Probably not. It really depends on the situation.

Keep in mind, this is only how I personally approach such situations; hence, it is not "law." Some of the suggestions here were simply mentioned to me by various individuals who happen to be in law enforcement.

Phydeaux642
June 30, 2010, 07:39 PM
Okay, then help me with this. Is there anything I should keep in mind, of a legal nature, if I sell FTF in Missouri. It seems that maybe the laws have changed in the last few years that make it easier. It used to be the buyer had to have a permit form the local sheriff.

NavyLCDR
June 30, 2010, 07:41 PM
At this rate we are going to end up here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B5NMN7GBA4

inSight-NEO
June 30, 2010, 07:59 PM
Okay, then help me with this. Is there anything I should keep in mind, of a legal nature, if I sell FTF in Missouri. It seems that maybe the laws have changed in the last few years that make it easier. It used to be the buyer had to have a permit form the local sheriff.

Honestly, I cannot say. I do not live in Missouri. I live in Oklahoma. Check your local laws (local PD or local FFL holder would be a good start).

Take for instance, a gun show. I have seen several individuals walk out with a purchased weapon, needing nothing more than a valid license and a few signatures. But, therein lies the so-called "gun show" loophole (which, by the way, I have no real issue with). How this translates in to a single individual selling a weapon to someone else, I do not know.

Regardless, I am no lawyer; therefore I wont pretend to offer legal counsel. My previous post simply listed various considerations and criteria I used in a previous, "unofficial" weapon sale. Now, if I were not legally able to sell such a weapon, I would be in a bad situation. But, since this was not the case, I did what I could to at least ensure I was selling the gun to a "legal" buyer. If the buyer had not agreed to my methods, then I would have suggested we walk on in to the gun shop and make this "official;" with the buyer paying all transfer fees.


At this rate we are going to end up here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B5NMN7GBA4

Funny video. However, a bit trite given the topic at hand. Selling a weapon is serious, particularly if going outside a recognized FFL dealer.

Hatterasguy
June 30, 2010, 08:13 PM
I have never had a problem, you have to be very careful though. Many years ago my trim guy got into trouble doing a FTF. He made a few mistakes, number 1 met the guy inside his house in a shady area. Number 2 was he brought a loaded mag for the gun. He said the guy took the mag and before he could react had it cock and pointing at his head.

inSight-NEO
June 30, 2010, 08:18 PM
Agreed.

Whatever you do, do not meet the potential buyer at your home or his/hers. Meet at a public location (preferably near a local FFL dealer, should this become necessary) and bring a friend along. Oh...and make sure that gun is unloaded!

To add to my previous post, regardless of what anyone thinks, signatures, witnesses, declarations and multiple copies can go a long way if one chooses to avoid the FFL route. But, the bottom line is to be smart about selling a weapon this way and try to leave no proverbial stone unturned.

sernv99
July 1, 2010, 06:18 AM
did you include your constraints on selling when you advertised those firearms? If not then it proves nothing, only that the inconvenience and additional expense were less of an inconvenience than being a deal breaker. Personally if I had to go to an FFL to get a transfer on a private sale then I'm going direct to an FFL, that way if the firearm is faulty (and not bought as is) I have recourse to that business, and I know that any legal issues (for instance accidentally buying a stolen firearm) falls more on the FFL than on me.

yup, stated all of my conditions for selling my firearms. I recently nixed an in state buyer who wanted to just do an exchange without going through a dealer. So I am willing to nix deals from in-state residents who do not want to go through a FFL transfer. As I said before, I do not know anything about Joe Blow's background so best to be safe.

If I bought a gun from a FFL and something was wrong with it, guess what? The FFL sends it to the factory for warranty work (if still in warranty) or to be fixed at my cost (if used and out of warranty). So your point on that is moot.

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