Would you trust carrying you DA/SA or SA Cond. 0?


PDA






FIVETWOSEVEN
June 30, 2010, 01:47 AM
Just a thought that entered my head but would you trust carrying your gun cocked and unlocked? There are guns with the firing pin safety that releases as you pull the trigger, would you trust this to carry?

If you enjoyed reading about "Would you trust carrying you DA/SA or SA Cond. 0?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
usp9
June 30, 2010, 06:18 AM
but would you trust carrying your gun cocked and unlocked?
No.

Thedub88
June 30, 2010, 07:57 AM
not only no ... but HELL NO :scrutiny:

MCgunner
June 30, 2010, 09:00 AM
Just a thought that entered my head but would you trust carrying your gun cocked and unlocked? There are guns with the firing pin safety that releases as you pull the trigger, would you trust this to carry?

That's sorta how I look upon Glocks except that they are not fully cocked, but it don't take much to fire 'em. Nope, I don't carry my SA revolvers cocked in my holster either. :rolleyes: They all have transfer bars, but safety can't be too redundant IMO. I much prefer DA or DAO autos or revolvers and that's what I carry, thank you very much. If I carried a SA gun, it'd be cocked and locked and not in my pocket, but on my hip. In a pocket, a single action would either ride condition 2 or 3 in MY pocket. Of course, condition 3 is safest and the slide can be racked fast if needed on the draw with practice.

I have no desire to shoot myself. Gun safety is VERY important. I suppose you can be a Glock head and use the bugger picker out of the trigger argument, safety is in the head, and all that total BS. Not saying I don't believe in safe gun handling, I do, but if you don't believe in Murphy's law, knock yourself out. :rolleyes: Me, I'll keep my DA and DAO guns. I just hope I'm never around you somewhere in a check out line with your cocked and unlocked series 80.

IMTHDUKE
June 30, 2010, 09:10 AM
So what condition are you going to carry a DA/SA in? In a defensive critical situation, you will need to rack the slide. I pocket carry in a good holster cocked and locked.

AirForceShooter
June 30, 2010, 09:32 AM
I carried a 1911 for over 20 years at condition Zero.
It's still got the trigger and the grip safety.

See mom? It's just like a Glock this way.

AFS

loadedround
June 30, 2010, 09:51 AM
Why push your luck? The 1911 was designed to carry cocked and locked for almost 100 years so why change things now. :uhoh:

The Bushmaster
June 30, 2010, 09:59 AM
What the hell is "condition 0"?? I've heard of "condition 1" Which is chamber loaded, cocked and locked (the only way to carry a 1911), but not "condition 0"...

FIVETWOSEVEN
June 30, 2010, 10:15 AM
Condition 0 is where your Gun is cocked and unlocked.

IMTHDUKE
June 30, 2010, 10:19 AM
What the hell is "condition 0"?? I've heard of "condition 1" Which is chamber loaded, cocked and locked (the only way to carry a 1911), but not "condition 0"...

Yeah....guess that's a new condition recently implemented.:D

Condition 1 as 1911 is perscribed to be carried, has at least three safetys not counting the firing pin block. The slide lock saftey, the grip safety and the the most important one....

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww2/imthduke/GUNS/safety.jpg

Cocked and unlocked would still give you two safteys.

Fleetman
June 30, 2010, 10:33 AM
I carry my 1911 cocked and locked. There is NO way I would depend on having to rack a slide in an emergency....I don't care how fast you are, odds are you won't be fast enough. The same goes, at least on a 1911, with the hammer down on a chambered round.....you ain't gonna be fast enough when the BG is closing in on you.

A quality, well maintained 1911 cocked and locked is perfectly safe and (almost) instantly ready. I also carry, at times, a Keltec PF9 and I feel the DAO is a little safer although the trigger pull tends to pull the shots low.

I agree with IMTHDUKE, the number one safety is your finger. I've heard of "Condition 0" many times but feel that method of carry is downright foolish! If you are familiar and comfortable with your SD firearm, a simple swipe of the safety should come natural. If not, you have no business carrying that particular firearm. Practice, practice, practice....makes perfect!

easyg
June 30, 2010, 10:55 AM
Would you trust carrying you DA/SA or SA Cond. 0?
Just a thought that entered my head but would you trust carrying your gun cocked and unlocked? There are guns with the firing pin safety that releases as you pull the trigger, would you trust this to carry?
Sure.
This one is single-action, but it does have a grip safety....

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n165/allenXdog/HPIM6525.jpg

easyg
June 30, 2010, 11:01 AM
I suppose you can be a Glock head and use the bugger picker out of the trigger argument, safety is in the head, and all that total BS. Not saying I don't believe in safe gun handling, I do, but if you don't believe in Murphy's law, knock yourself out. Me, I'll keep my DA and DAO guns.
Let me get this straight....

You have no problem with carrying a DAO or a DA/SA pistol, but you wouldn't carry a Glock, for safety reasons?

What you're saying is this:
I trust a pistol, without a safety, that has a 10 lbs trigger-pull, but the same pistol with a 5.5 lbs trigger-pull is unsafe. :scrutiny:


As if a mere 5.5 additional lbs of pressure is going to make much difference.:rolleyes:

saturno_v
June 30, 2010, 11:05 AM
Let me get this straight....

You have no problem with carrying a DAO or a DA/SA pistol, but you wouldn't carry a Glock, for safety reasons?

What you're saying is this:
I trust a pistol, without a safety, that has a 10 lbs trigger-pull, but the same pistol with a 5.5 lbs trigger-pull is unsafe.


As if a mere 5.5 additional lbs of pressure is going to make much difference

Actually yes...I trust more my P-11 than a Glock...not only the trigger is much heavier but the pull is way longer...

9mmepiphany
June 30, 2010, 11:08 AM
post by IMTHDUKE
So what condition are you going to carry a DA/SA in? In a defensive critical situation, you will need to rack the slide

why would you carry a defensive pistol without a round in the chamber?

saturno_v
June 30, 2010, 11:13 AM
And I carry always my DA/SA pistols (I own only DA/SA other than my pocket piece, the P-11) with one in the pipe, decocked...that is the correct way to carry them.

Practice your DA pull at the range.

Lonestar49
June 30, 2010, 12:10 PM
why would you carry a defensive pistol without a round in the chamber?



...

My bet is that it's the unsure/unknown new to handgun effect in place..

Give these new owners about 1 - 3 months and the "if the gun accidentally fires-effect by itself or by me" will prove they just don't go bang by themselves and as shown above, the trigger finger is the key to safety or unsafe handling of any weapon..

Once they get a solid base of safety foundation and the new gun proves they don't just go boom on their own, then the round gets chambered and "the fear/unknown" factor enters again but not as bad nor as long, about 1 week, maybe 2, then it's understanding with confidence that, hopefully, all of us retain and pass on.. the solid_base of using the 4 rules of gun handling and safety.

Some take longer, some less, and a few just never carry with a round in the chamber i.e. Israeli style.. and that's their choice and with all the rules and knowledge ingrained in such individuals, I would not argue with their choice given they are proficient in the use and handling of weapons..

It's an individual choice (in the end) we all make on how to carry

Myself, as most others, "I recommend carrying with one in the chamber" as I walked the same unknown path, mentioned above, 3yrs ago, hard to believe, with my first handgun, a Beretta DA/SA Px4 40 F, converted to a G-model 3 months later, 2 weeks after I got my second handgun, a Sig P229R CT 9mm and 5 more handguns todate, now up to 7 - You all know the, ongoing, drill.. lol

And to answer the OP's question: No, I would not carry any of my DA/SA loaded guns in SA mode/holstered.. no need, along with - Yes when I'm using my SA 1911, EMP 9mm, SAO, loaded - cocked and locked, as they should be, again, IMHO..

OMMV


Ls

Red Cent
June 30, 2010, 12:24 PM
I am slow but I will catch on in time.

Condition 0 - Cocked and not locked and one in the chamber.?

Steve C
June 30, 2010, 01:04 PM
Safeties both active and passive are there to prevent accidental discharge without the trigger being pulled if the pistol is dropped or struck and for no other functional reason. A 1911 pre 80 series and similar clones without the firing pin block has a high likelihood of discharge if struck hard in a drop under condition 0. The inertial firing pin and the grip safety will not prevent discharge if the hammer is bounced off the sear or the sear is snapped.

Its incorrect to equate a cocked single action pistol of this type in condition 0 with a double action or Glock type action pistol. Modern DA and DAO pistols with passive safeties in unaltered condition carried with hammer down or Glock type striker fired pistols are incapable of discharge if dropped or struck.

There is a lot of irrational "feelings" about safeties but while they may hinder an inept handler from discharging a weapon they certainly can't prevent it if the person is persistent. This is the function of locks and keys, not safeties.

Girodin
June 30, 2010, 01:41 PM
Of course, condition 3 is safest and the slide can be racked fast if needed on the draw with practice.

Anyone thinking they can rack the slide plenty fast enough for a defensive situation would be well served to test that theory out with the following both a shot timer and some force on force drills. Report back to us on you Tueller drills done with an empty chamber.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX8hIeevPlg How would this one have gone had he needed to rack the slide?

If I carried a SA gun, it'd be cocked and locked and not in my pocket, but on my hip. In a pocket, a single action would either ride condition 2 or 3 in MY pocket.

I hear this a lot but what I have never heard of is the safety being swiped off. In a decade the safety has never come off of my mustang while in a pocket holster. That is of course no guarantee that it couldn't happen tomorrow but it seems to me that it is rather unlikely.

To answer the OPs question no I would not carry condition 0. If I were to carry my DA/SA sig it would be chambered hammer down. If I carry a 1911 it is condition one. I see no real advantage to having the safety off (some might argue speed but the safety comes off naturally and rather quickly in the process of the draw so that I see it as no real advantage at all) and I can think of a few advantages offered by having it on.

Sheepdog1968
June 30, 2010, 02:39 PM
If a gun has a safety, I would have it rendered safe in a holster.
If it's a 1911 style I would carry it cocked and locked no problem
If it's a DA/SA such as a Sig with no safey, I would carry it hammer down and round in chamber no problem
Glocks and XDs round in chamber

Under no circumstances would I carry something say as a 1911 cocked and unlocked or a Sig cocked. It is inviting a disaster.

Nushif
June 30, 2010, 02:41 PM
I guess I'm not following ... You mean to carry .... with no rounds in the chamber, and the hammer pulled back? Doesn't the hammer pull back when you rack the slide? Which is what you'd have to do anyways?
Or do you mean that the safety is off, there is a round in the chamber ... and the hammer is down?
Or do you mean the hammer is down, the round is in the chamber and the safety is not engaged?

I am really confused as to the practical aspect here.

lions
June 30, 2010, 02:44 PM
I guess I'm not following ...

Full mag, loaded chamber, hammer cocked, safety off.

Nushif
June 30, 2010, 02:49 PM
Aha, that makes more sense.

Just for casual carrying? Naw, I don't mind the safety, it goes off quite fast. If I was about ready to use it, such as walking into a situation ... that's how I'd carry a SA pistol. Ready to use.

Ratdog68
June 30, 2010, 03:01 PM
I've carried DA/SA and SA. I carried the DA/SA with a round chambered and the manual safety engaged (decocked). I carried the SA with a round chambered, cocked/locked, and prefer a holster with the keeper strap between the gun and the cocked hammer.

Upon holstering either type... I double check the manual safety to make certain it's in "safe" mode before turning my attention away from the holstered weapon.

I will not knowingly/intentionally carry cocked/unlocked with either platform.

Dnaltrop
June 30, 2010, 03:03 PM
For those of us newer to CCW and still getting our "Nerves" soothed...

Better to jump in the pool and trust the design ( M&P .40, no safety beyond the trigger and a tight holster) rather than let bad habits build from changing your method while you "ease in"

This single action revolver guy is still getting used to having plastic in his life ^^.

Sheriff's office warned me I came In during Vacation for the primary person who runs checks, but has taken as little as 2 weeks (post fingerprinting) here.

GLOOB
July 2, 2010, 03:25 AM
Anyone else like the idea behind that oddball Browning pistol? I can't recall the name, but it's the one that's a DAO pistol, but it could be cocked for a SA shot. So the manual of arms was like a DA revolver.

I really like the idea as a hi cap DAO SD pistol that also has the SA cocking capability for plinking/suvival/hunting/etc.

But failing that, my preference for a CCW would be a GLOCK action with a heavier than stock trigger. Longish first pull. Short followup pulls with the same weight and break. No declunker/safety. It automatically decocks when you let go of the trigger.

JoeSlomo
July 2, 2010, 04:12 AM
Trust?

Yes.

Practice?

No.

harmon rabb
July 2, 2010, 07:54 AM
Just a thought that entered my head but would you trust carrying your gun cocked and unlocked? There are guns with the firing pin safety that releases as you pull the trigger, would you trust this to carry?

It's funny. For all the people that say no... that's kind of what you're doing if you carry a xd, and exactly what you're doing if you carry a m&p. :o

hammerklavier
July 2, 2010, 09:46 AM
Excuse my ignorance, but I was under the impression that a 1911 could fire if the hammer comes down, no finger on the trigger. I know I've heard of people setting one off while trying to put it into condition 2 or half-cocked either one. Did I misunderstand? Do you have to pull the trigger to decock it?

thunder173
July 2, 2010, 09:47 AM
No,..no,...and NO!!

The Bushmaster
July 2, 2010, 10:09 AM
No, no...and YES. If you have operated the slide to load the chamber and you want to go to condition two (whatever for?). Yes! You do have to pull the trigger to release the hammer from the sear then release the trigger and lower the hammer to half cock (a dangerous move). It's too easy to accidently have the hammer slip and still have the trigger pulled. If the hammer slips after you have released the trigger it should not fire as the hammer will fall to halfcock position.

THIS IS FOR 1911 STYLE HANDGUNS...

FIVETWOSEVEN
July 2, 2010, 11:04 AM
Anyone else like the idea behind that oddball Browning pistol? I can't recall the name, but it's the one that's a DAO pistol, but it could be cocked for a SA shot. So the manual of arms was like a DA revolver.

That would be the Browning BD. It could actually be switched between DAO and DA/SA. Its a gun that I would like to get someday.

If you want to read up on the gun: http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg109-e.htm

Trust?

Yes.

Practice?

No.

That means that you don't trust it enough to carry it, That is the question of this topic.

Strahley
July 2, 2010, 11:28 AM
Sure, I could with a SIG, and it wouldn't bother me. My holster blocks the trigger area from anything touching it, and I don't touch the trigger until I'm ready to fire anyway

I don't because the hammer would poke me all day

Rexster
July 2, 2010, 05:41 PM
Assuming carry in a modern holster, that covers the trigger guard, I would trust my 1911 in Condition Zero, from a perspective of safety from unintended discharges. (The index finger IS the safety; the grip safety acts to prevent firing if the weapon is dropped in a brushy environment.) OTOH, what if something like a twig, in brushy country, knocks the safety lever to the on-safe position? I would want to verify that the pistol was ready to fire, anyway, so I would train to always off-safe when presenting the pistol toward a target. So, Condition Zero is purely academic to me. The pistol itself is trustworthy.

So, why have a thumb safety at all? Well, when reholstering, the thumb safety helps ensure the trigger cannot be tripped, during reholstering, by a twig, strap, lanyard, etc.

Why so much mention of brush and twigs? Well, I live along the Texas coast, quite near the Big Thicket National Preserve, and South Texas brush country. Brush, twigs, vines, and such, are part of my life. I want either a heavy DA pull, or a safety lever.

The Lone Haranguer
July 2, 2010, 05:53 PM
The handgun should be mechanically safe. It is myself I wouldn't trust, under stress.

SharpsDressedMan
July 2, 2010, 07:02 PM
If you are talking about a Colt Series 80, or similar weapon with a firing pin that is not unlocked until you pull the trigger, I would say yes, I COULD stand to carry it loaded with the safety off. I don't think I'd want to, all the time, though. The thumb safety is just more insurance that the gun won't accidentally go off, or one more thing that a gun snatcher has to figure out if he gets his hands on it. I HAVE carried a Colt 1911 (pre-series 80 with no firing pin block) for short periods, when I was directly in a situation where I would have to draw and fire RIGHT NOW, and I didn't want to fiddle with the thumb safety. Now this was as a cop, and I was going right into a threat situation, and the ablility to be fast at the gun was more important than the risk of an AD from carrying the gun in the holster cocked and unlocked (in all truth, unless you have a faulty gun, or you are fiddling with it, OR you & your holster are DROPPED FROM AN 8 FOOT LEDGE ON YOUR GUN (and the resulting impact jars the sear/hammer loose, and even then you have the half cock notch). Should we feel nervous about carrying condition "0"...we probably will....but there is no real data to indicate we NEED to be worried about it. It just SEEMS dangerous.

1911Tuner
July 2, 2010, 07:11 PM
The 1911 was designed to carry cocked and locked for almost 100 years so why change things now.

No it wasn't. It was designed so that it could be safely placed in Condition One...but not specifically to be carried that way.

FIVETWOSEVEN
July 3, 2010, 12:53 PM
It was originally made without a safety but was added at the request of the army. It was meant to be decocked and returned to the holster after firing.

1911Tuner
July 3, 2010, 04:08 PM
The early submissions had no manual safety. The thumb safety...manual safety...was added at the request of the US Cavalry so that a mounted trooper could place the pistol on safe and reholster it in order to regain control of an unruly horse...without shooting himself or the horse under stress. There was no intent for the pistol to be carried cocked and locked...neither by Browning nor the US Army.

As to the original question...it depends. An unlocked 1911 wouldn't bother me overly much because the grip safety is there, along with the half-cock notch to stop the hammer in the event of a broken sear or hammer hooks. The thumb safety has no bearing on preventing a discharge in that event anyway. It doesn't block the hammer. It blocks the sear.

A pistol with a passive firing pin blocking device is also pretty safe with the safety in the off position. Some moreso than others.

Would I intentionally carry one with the safety off? No.

EddieNFL
July 3, 2010, 04:16 PM
Has it been a month already?

dfjaws
July 3, 2010, 05:33 PM
I carry my P30 chambered and decocked. I carry my Glock 19 chambered.

qwertice
July 5, 2010, 02:29 AM
I've carried my Glock (with a competition trigger) for the past year, round chambered, no holster.

But would I do it with a single action gun? Mmm, probably not, no.

(I want my Beretta!)

RoverSig
July 5, 2010, 04:59 PM
I'm at the other extreme.

I do not keep a round in the chamber. I do not want to have a ND -- and both cocked and locked pistols (M1911, Hi-Power, etc.) and striker-fired weapons have more than their share of NDs (although for different reasons). I believe police departments reported that Glocks have much higher rates of NDs upon re-holstering than their previous issue revolvers or DA pistols (I read that on the internet, where you are reading this, so it might not be true).

I have a CCW permit. I do not envision myself in a gunfight with six punks -- I stay away from places where there might be six punks. I carry a pistol when taking long trips or fishing, hiking, etc., out in the country -- an M&P 9c with a second 17 round mag, for a total of 29 rounds -- because I want enough ammo to deal with a pack of dogs, a rabid animal, or one+ bad people. If I see a snake, I am not going to shoot it. I carry earplugs, an indicator of premeditation to use the pistol, but my response to any threat will be to retreat.

I also carry around town, typically a J frame in a pocket holster. Even if I am someplace I think is pretty safe, I keep an eye out for a closing situation that would amp up my alertness and perhaps make me change direction -- to retreat -- or even reach for the revolver.

Simply put, the odds of a ND with a cocked and locked pistol are too high for me. I'm leery of striker-fired pistols, even with safeties of various types, if they have a round in the chamber. Even chambering and unchambering rounds in a pistol carries some statistical risk. I've personally seen (or heard) four NDs in my life, one of which resulted in a death -- all were by highly trained military personnel, three out of the four involving SOF types. I think I know how to handle a gun, but I don't want that one event to ruin years of value from carrying this useful tool. My life is not worth the life of an innocent person.

So, for me, it is carry with an empty chamber (for pistols) or carry a revolver with a stiff trigger pull and a covered trigger. I think I'm getting 95% of the security value of having a handgun but avoiding 95% of the danger of a ND -- for me, this is the right trade-off.

FIVETWOSEVEN
July 5, 2010, 05:09 PM
If your worried about a ND in a semi auto, get a DA/SA or a Glock with a 12 lb trigger. It'll be just like your revolver.

ohwell
July 5, 2010, 06:42 PM
I carry the same as Rover revolver fully loaded autos nothing in the chamber. After you have practiced it enough drawing and racking the slide all at once is easy. As a side benefit its saves on beating up your expensive carry ammo unchambering all the time. Of course there are those people who think you can leave it chambered and cocked for long periods without weakening the springs but thats another arguement . Anyways check out this link these guys can unholster and rack the slide faster than most can be ready fully chambered but it does take practice. I'm surprised this video is even still there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2OqJtSn4Pk

gc70
July 5, 2010, 07:40 PM
Would you trust carrying you DA/SA or SA Cond. 0? (carrying your gun cocked and unlocked)

Nope. If I wanted to carry a gun in that fashion, I would get a Glock with the 3.5# connector.

Strahley
July 5, 2010, 08:36 PM
If you're worried about an ND in a semi-auto, pay more attention to when you are handling a gun. A gun being carried without a round in the chamber may as well be a paper weight as far as I'm concerned

FIVETWOSEVEN
July 6, 2010, 03:33 PM
I carry the same as Rover revolver fully loaded autos nothing in the chamber. After you have practiced it enough drawing and racking the slide all at once is easy. As a side benefit its saves on beating up your expensive carry ammo unchambering all the time. Of course there are those people who think you can leave it chambered and cocked for long periods without weakening the springs but thats another arguement . Anyways check out this link these guys can unholster and rack the slide faster than most can be ready fully chambered but it does take practice. I'm surprised this video is even still there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2OqJtSn4Pk

Just keep the gun chamber and cocked. Replace the springs every year or two. Carrying a revolver fully loaded and a semiauto chambered is pretty much the same thing. If you carry a DA/SA semiauto handgun, just decock it and it will have a long trigger pull like a revolver. If its a SAO gun without a safety then I would understand your concern about how the hammer is back. Pretty much all modern handguns are safe to throw off the empire state building chambered and not go off on impact. I haven't been able to carry yet being 18 but when I turn 18 in december I'm carrying Condition 1. I wouldn't feel to unsafe carrying condition 0 considering the strap of the holster is inbetween the hammer and the firing pin.

1911Tuner
July 6, 2010, 04:23 PM
Anyways check out this link these guys can unholster and rack the slide faster than most can be ready fully chambered

Apparently you've never seen a .5 second signal to shot hit. These guys look pretty well practiced, but a C-class shooter would draw and ding'em twice before they cleared leather.

9mmepiphany
July 6, 2010, 04:36 PM
Anyways check out this link these guys can unholster and rack the slide faster than most can be ready fully chambered but it does take practice. I'm surprised this video is even still there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2OqJtSn4Pk

their slide racking was pretty smooth, what i can't understand is what takes them so long to break their first shot. :uhoh: we won't even talk about how their mag changes went :eek:

NinjaFeint
July 6, 2010, 04:59 PM
My first gun was a Glock so I learned the only safety is the one between my ears. I now carry a Kahr (round in chamber) so it is the same way. I wouldn't feel uncomfortable if the SA had a firing pin safety. I wouldn't elect to do so though.

I don't understand those who carry without one in the pipe, but that is their choice.

ohwell
July 6, 2010, 05:05 PM
My undertsanding of the video is these are trainee's just learning using production type weapons no speedholsters something like a normal person would be using conceal and carry on the streets. Also check out the target distance they are shooting at doesnt look like 7 to 10 yards to me could be why it took a little longer to get the shot off

If you enjoyed reading about "Would you trust carrying you DA/SA or SA Cond. 0?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!