Guns, tools or dangerous weapons? What is your view and why?


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TCB in TN
July 2, 2010, 02:43 PM
I have been involved in several discussions over the years where the argument centered around whether guns are merely tools or whether they are so much more dangerous that they fall into their own category. Just curious as to the view that folks on here have, and how that view impacts the way you handle them.

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hso
July 2, 2010, 02:46 PM
Cars, chain saws, firearms are all very dangerous when improperly used. Can anyone reasonably say that one is more dangerous than the other? No, of course not.

So is a chain saw a tool? A car? Sure. If these machines are just as dangerous as firearms then and they're considered tools then it makes little sense to put firearms in a separate category just because they're "guns". Tell people to drop the mystical impression and look at the machine.

The Lone Haranguer
July 2, 2010, 02:47 PM
Weapons. I don't even know how this "guns are tools" business got started.

Cosmoline
July 2, 2010, 02:52 PM
So what if they're dangerous weapons? There's nothing wrong with being dangerous. It is in fact a prerequisite to continued survival on this planet. I'm dangerous. Doubly so with a firearm. So what?

I always liked this quote from the Two Towers:

"Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord. And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Glóin; for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion. Certainly the forest of Fangorn is perilous -- not least to those that are too ready with their axes; and Fangorn himself, he is perilous too; yet he is wise and kindly nonetheless."

Rail Driver
July 2, 2010, 02:55 PM
Guns are tools, used for a specific purpose, however guns are not in the same category as hammers and chain saws... you can't hack someone apart with a chainsaw from 30 yds away, and you can't smash someone's head with a hammer from very far at all unless you're a skilled axethrower (or similar) or drop it from the top of a building (or some other equally silly explanation that I'm sure 30 people will think of posting)

Guns are used for hunting, self defense, plinking/training and war. There's a tool for every job.

Think of the difference between hand tools and power tools like the difference between say swords and guns. You wouldn't use a sword to open a package just like you wouldn't use a gun to cut down a tree (unless you happen to own a LOT of land, and have one or more NFA firearms)

:cool:

ny32182
July 2, 2010, 03:01 PM
Weapons are tools. These are not mutually exclusive concepts. Indeed, one is actually a subset of the other.

General Geoff
July 2, 2010, 03:10 PM
Weapons. I don't even know how this "guns are tools" business got started.

Guns have always been tools, as well as potential weapons.

Tool - object or device used to make a task easier.
Weapon -tool used to attack something or someone.

A car is always a tool. When someone uses it to intentionally run someone over, it's a weapon.

This thread will eventually devolve into "designed or intended usage vs potential usage."

c919
July 2, 2010, 03:18 PM
It all depends on who's holding the gun....

Mudinyeri
July 2, 2010, 03:21 PM
It all depends on who's holding the gun....
^This

Guns are not dangerous. People are dangerous.

Dnaltrop
July 2, 2010, 03:26 PM
People are the weapon, A gun is just a rock with range and Shock value.

DoubleTapDrew
July 2, 2010, 03:42 PM
Depends on how it's used. Lots of things are dangerous weapons when used as a weapon.
It's hard using that argument against anti's since they have it firmly engrained in their mind that guns have only one purpose while cars, saws, hammers, etc. have more "practical" everyday uses.
The tool impacts the way I handle them. While I might be less careful with a screwdriver or a level I handle a circular saw or nail gun the same way I handle a firearm: very carefully.

TheProf
July 2, 2010, 04:23 PM
1. Guns are nothing more than tools. "A tool is an instrument designed to serve its master."
2. More specifically, a gun is a tool that is for the purpose of stopping another human being. A tool with this purpose is called a "weapon".
3. So the term "weapon" is a subset of the term "tool". All weapons are tools. Not all tools are weapons.
4. A weapon is neither good nor bad. It has no inherent moral trait. It all depends on who uses that weapon. In the hands of law abiding citizens, a weapon used to stop a criminal from doing evil would be considered a good thing. The term "weapon" is not automatically a dirty word. Weapons are good in the hands of good people. As a society, we have become so politically correct and "sissyfied" that many have lost the concept of self defense.

Walkalong
July 2, 2010, 04:56 PM
I have half a dozen things in my office that could be used to kill someone. (No, no guns).

Thing is, I am not going to kill anyone.

There are "tools" in our shop that can maim or kill if used improperly. We stress safety all the time.

Guns are weapons. Weapons can be considered tools. They can be dangerous when used improperly, or "properly" by a bad guy, just like many other things in our society.

People are the problem, not guns, saws, knives, swords, bats, 2X4's, tire irons, lawn darts, rocks, cars, boats, jet skies, walking across the street, etc.

How does it impact me? I am very careful when using anything that can do damage to me or others, not just guns.

hammerklavier
July 2, 2010, 04:58 PM
Words mean things. Guns are weapons. They are only tools in as much as all weapons are tools. All weapons are dangerous, at least to their intended target or targets of like size.

CTPhil
July 2, 2010, 05:25 PM
On the farm, a gun is a tool.

kingpin008
July 2, 2010, 05:30 PM
Words mean things. Guns are weapons.

Definition of weapon: "any instrument or instrumentality used in fighting or hunting"

Definition of tool: "an implement used in the practice of a vocation"

Seeing as how not all firearms are meant or designed to be "instruments used in fighting or hunting" it seems that the second definition (that of a tool) is the more appropriate.

Zack
July 2, 2010, 05:32 PM
HSO nailed it.

Zoidberg523
July 2, 2010, 05:45 PM
Weapons. I don't even know how this "guns are tools" business got started.

Yep, same as chainsaws, axes, hacksaws, screwdrivers, drills, table saws, knives, box cutters, wrenches, (and on, forever). :rolleyes:

They are tools, and like any tool, their danger depends on who is using them.

Oyeboten
July 2, 2010, 05:53 PM
Guns are Tools, and or are a sub-set or Category of Tools.

At it's simplest, Guns are devices which propell an evolved or sophisticated 'rock'.

Tools are anything which extend the reach or facility of the Body, be it the Hand, the Eye, the Foot, the Stomach, or the Brain.

A Refrigerator is an accessory pre-Stomach.

A Commode, an accessory post-Bowel.

A Microscope, an extention of the Eye.

Etc

earlthegoat2
July 2, 2010, 05:53 PM
Weapons, yeah.
Tools, yeah.

In either sense, there is no way on this Earth I would use a gun for what it is intended to be used for, if it was not, in fact, dangerous.

To paraphrase something that has been said on this site a few times:

Isn't that gun you are carrying dangerous?
It better be, I would not be carrying it if it wasn't.

GEM
July 2, 2010, 06:03 PM
Guns are 'arms' and lethal in purpose. Nonlethal sporting purposes are derivative in 99.99% of the time of their lethal use against people or critters.

As arms, their lethal purpose has led to constitutional protection.

Tools, like chain saws and hammers - even though dangerous - are not protected.

Tools can be banned and controlled with ease.

Saying they are tools is a way to try to convince the nasty anti to let you have a toy or a gadget to fix the sink or play a game with.

Since they are so dangerous, such toys and tools should be strictly controlled. Or see that they are 'arms' and protected.

That's my opinion. BTW, from my knowledge of the research on weapons and psychological impact of such - only the choir would buy into the tool analogy. No else would.

hammerklavier
July 2, 2010, 06:15 PM
Agreed, the 2nd amendment protects "Arms", not "recreational tools".

Hawthorne2k
July 2, 2010, 06:16 PM
Weapons are tools. These are not mutually exclusive concepts. Indeed, one is actually a subset of the other.

+1

A car is a tool for me to get to work in less than 3 hours, but it is also a dangerous tool and can be a weapon.

oldfool
July 2, 2010, 07:00 PM
it is not either/or
it is both

a tool, yes, of course
but never, never, ever forget it is a deadly weapon, not even if it is intended to be a "just for fun tool"

no matter how deadly a chain saw or automobile can be, it is just not in the same class

PS
after all, how many 'scenarios' have you read lately on what size saw or automobile best to defend against grizz, or machete man, or zombies ???
;)

stevelyn
July 2, 2010, 07:07 PM
A tool I can use as a dangerous weapon if I need to.

oldfool
July 2, 2010, 07:08 PM
put it this way...

they invented the wheel to make it easier to get around
they invented the chainsaw to make it easier to cut wood
they invented fire to make it easier to use the wood to cook food
they invented the hoe and the fish hook and the sharp stick to make it easier to get food
they invented the knife to make it easier to prepare the food for the fire

they invented the gun to kill whatever bad stuff got in the way of your doing any of the above

CoRoMo
July 2, 2010, 07:12 PM
Out of the three options (guns,tools,dangerous weapons), I choose the first one. They are guns.

Also, they sure open up soda cans easier than trying to pry that little tab up with no fingernails.

oldfool
July 2, 2010, 07:23 PM
"Also, they sure open up soda cans easier than trying to pry that little tab up with no fingernails."


yup, true
but you got to be mighty quick if real thirsty
which is why they invented slow aged bourbon, of course :D

(and slow aged bourbon is a primary reason why they then invented the pocket derringer)

Grey Morel
July 2, 2010, 08:03 PM
Weapons. I don't even know how this "guns are tools" business got started.

It was created as a contrarian back-lash to Leftist personification.

ol' scratch
July 2, 2010, 08:07 PM
ANYTHING can be dangerous when misused.

oldfool
July 2, 2010, 08:07 PM
left or right depends on whether you are standing shoulder-to-shoulder,
or nose-to-nose

always has
(and some folks shoot left handed, and some folks shoot right handed)

Zoidberg523
July 2, 2010, 09:15 PM
As arms, their lethal purpose has led to constitutional protection.

Tools, like chain saws and hammers - even though dangerous - are not protected.

Tools can be banned and controlled with ease.

Saying they are tools is a way to try to convince the nasty anti to let you have a toy or a gadget to fix the sink or play a game with.

Since they are so dangerous, such toys and tools should be strictly controlled. Or see that they are 'arms' and protected.


You have a very good point, though IMHO, arms are a Constitutionally protected sub-set of tools, due to their ability to also be used effectively as weapons, to protect citizens from enemies (both foreign and political).

Our forefathers indeed intended us (the citizens) to be able to defend against foreign enemies of this country, and so they decided to give us the right to defend ourselves with the most effective tools available at that time (firearms). However, having recently descended from a country controlled by a tyrannical government, they also intended us to be able to defend ourselves against our government. A government which ironically (or perhaps not) always seems to be trying to tyrannically disarm us.

JellyJar
July 2, 2010, 09:24 PM
Lets use a logic tool called "Venn Diagrams".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sunspot_Numbers.png

On a piece of paper draw a large circle and label it "Tools".

Wholly within that circle draw another circle and label it "Dangerous Weapons".

Wholly within the Dangerous Weapons circle draw another circle and label it "Guns".

These three circle illustrate the relationships that exits between Tools, Dangerous Weapons and Guns.

All guns are dangerous weapons but not all dangerous weapons are guns.

All dangerous weapons are tools but not all tools are dangerous weapons.

Also, all guns are tools but not all tools are guns.

12131
July 2, 2010, 09:30 PM
Guns are tools, designed for a specific purpose, and are dangerous ONLY when used improperly.

ETA: Exception: When used properly, they are dangerous to the criminals.:evil:

Gouranga
July 2, 2010, 09:34 PM
i would say both. Let's be real, a skillsaw is a tool. Anyone here that has used one gonna tell me they are not dangerous? If you turn your back on them, don't watch what you are doing, or get careless, they can jam, jump, skip, and tear a limb off ya.

I do not know if "dangerous" is the correct word or not but i think a gun is one of those types of tools that demands respect and special attention to proper use.

Zoidberg523
July 2, 2010, 09:36 PM
On a piece of paper draw a large circle and label it "Tools".

Wholly within that circle draw another circle and label it "Dangerous Weapons".

Wholly within the Dangerous Weapons circle draw another circle and label it "Guns".

These three circle illustrate the relationships that exits between Tools, Dangerous Weapons and Guns.

I could not agree more. I actually thought about drawing a Venn Diagram for this and scanning it. :)

ETA Though, I think your link may have gotten messed up - unless you meant for us to learn about sunspot occurrences for the past 400 years. :D

Joe Demko
July 2, 2010, 09:41 PM
This insisting "it's only a tool!" is disingenuous. We carry our various ccw pieces specifically because they are weapons. Heck, guns were invented specifically as weapons and all the sporting uses were later derived.
You can insist to an anti all you want that a screwdriver = a chainsaw = a hammer = an M-4 but they'll never buy it, and neither do I.
They're weapons and there is nothing inherently wrong (or right) with weapons. I own them, I carry them, I practice with them. If the situation warrants, I'll use them against another human being. There is nothing there over which I need dissemble or for which I need apologize.

JellyJar
July 2, 2010, 09:43 PM
Sometimes I am so smart that I am stupid! :banghead:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram

Thanks Zoidberg523

( Try the message board at www.solarcycle24.com. I usually just lurk there but I have posted a couple of messages under the alias OldConfuseddude. )

Karl Hungus
July 2, 2010, 09:43 PM
Guns are used for hunting, self defense, plinking/training and war. There's a tool for every job.

Exactly.

Even if you just shoot paper your whole life, the fact of the matter is that guns are designed primarily to kill whatever they're aimed at. They are tools for killing. For some reason many people are ashamed of this fact which is really wierd because there's really nothing to be embarassed about. As far as "dangerous" is concerned, that term is very subjective.

22-rimfire
July 2, 2010, 09:49 PM
What's your view TCB? It's your thread.

TCB in TN
July 2, 2010, 11:11 PM
Well now that you asked. I fall into the tool category. Over the years I have really come to the conclusion that Guns are not any more inherently dangerous than any number of other tools. (I have seen far to many bodies hauled out of vehicles, body parts mangled by power tools, presses etc). I feel that just about any powerful tool can be used correctly and safely or incorrectly and cause horrific damage. As usual the group here on THR has not disappointed, a lot of well written, thoughtful responses. One of the things I enjoy about this sight. We see better thought out/explained responses on here and it often gives me something to think about and to question my own positions, or that re-affirm what I already think. Good stuff overall!

oneounceload
July 2, 2010, 11:23 PM
2. More specifically, a gun is a tool that is for the purpose of stopping another human being. A tool with this purpose is called a "weapon".

Not completely true - I have many guns whose purpose has nothing to do with stopping a human being - that may be the mindset of the tactical crowd, but that is minority opinion of the majority of gun owners.

In fact, most of my guns were purchased for reasons other than protection or to kill another human being.

A gun is, by definition, a device used to launch a projectile(s) towards a target. It is a mechanized device employing various means to accomplish that goal (springs, firing ins, etc). It is inert by nature and requires action by someone to accomplish its goal. That would make it a machine, and therefore by the definitions of this thread, a tool

Zoogster
July 2, 2010, 11:43 PM
Arms are constitutionally protected as arms, aka weapons.


The gun was created and improved over centuries as a weapon.
Our Bill of Rights protects it as a weapon.


The primary purpose of guns throughout time has been to launch pieces of metal into living tissue.
Whether it is humans or animals.
Most shooting sport recreation came about as a way to better practice for that purpose.


The whole political correctness of the previous decades is one of the reasons gun rights took a big hit.
Hiding behind hunting and recreation gets people things like "sporting purpose" laws and "assault weapon" (a term that expanded to include a wider variety of arms all the time, and still does in some states) laws. "You don't need that to hunt".
Be bold, just be polite.


Guns were weapons for our founding fathers, guns were thought of as ways to shoot living things, and guns were protected specifically as weapons/arms.
None of the founders thought the best way to prevent tyranny was to insure the citizens were always able to form deer hunting parties, or be able to shoot some clays, or participate in shooting sport competitions.
They felt the ability of the citizens to have lethal weapons that posed a threat to the governments of the world, foreign and domestic, was important. It was for that purpose and in that context that they protected the right to arms.
We just get to enjoy them doing many other activities because we already have them and a right to them.

It may be a recreational tool in Europe, but in the United States it's an "arm" (weapon) and comes with a lot more freedoms because the whole point of the protection in the United States is to insure the people can have dangerous lethal weapons. Weapons so dangerous that they even deter armed forces of governments (per the founding fathers.)

inSight-NEO
July 2, 2010, 11:52 PM
My signature pretty much sums up my take on the issue. Even though I chose to reference automobiles, the comparison applies to almost anything out there which comes with a warning label or disclaimer.

russ69
July 3, 2010, 12:05 AM
I have a number of firearms but they have never been used as weapons. I'm purely a target shooter so they are called rifles, pistols or shotguns, they are never referred to as weapons. The military shooters call them weapons as they are trained to use them in that manner. I'm trained to use them as target guns so they are not weapons to me. YMMV.

Thanx, Russ

oldfool
July 3, 2010, 12:49 AM
I dunno
I really have no dispute with those who regard paintball, or airsoft, or laser beams, or shotguns, or rimfire/centerfire handguns, or rifles, as recreational tools, or hunting tools
(and what's not to love about hunting ??)

that is what I do with my firearms, because it's fun

but no matter how much I enjoy all of that
I am pretty sure that the one gun I carry on my hip is a deadly weapon
because that is the reason why I carry it on my hip
not to score a high point count, or have fun, or be creative, or feed the family

scary (and deadly) as some of milady's kitchen knives are, they are tools
every bit as dangerous as most home power tools and home appliances can be, though not near as scary as a poorly driven Chevy
but I do not carry a chain saw or hair dryer or Black & Decker, or Chevy or Ford on my hip

but I do know why I wear a Colt
'tool-time' is not why

PS
I don't blame anybody who does not believe me...
but milady's kitchen knives would scare the living c*** out of your average Samurai (Wusthof do scare me, but not S&W or Colt)
but just tools... for doing things to things that were mostly recently alive, but ain't no more (none of which were dangerous in the 1st place)
ain't no Colts in the knife blocks
Colt is for 'other'

Hatterasguy
July 3, 2010, 01:03 AM
Firearms are tools like a screwdriver or a hammer; they are tools for killing.

I don't feel they are anymore or less dangerous than any other tool, when properly used.


Having said that I do think that firearms because of their intended use should be respected a bit more than a hammer.

22-rimfire
July 3, 2010, 01:48 AM
Guns, tools or dangerous weapons? What is your view and why?

I have never thought of guns that I own as dangerous weapons. They're tools that just happen to fire a projectile that can be used for many things. Even home defense guns are tools; tools to protect my home and nest.

Zoidberg523
July 3, 2010, 01:53 AM
but I do know why I wear a Colt
'tool-time' is not why

No offense meant, but I don't see the distinction. The firearm that you hunt with is a tool for putting meat on the table, just as the firearm on your hip is a tool for self preservation, and the defense of your family. All tools, and all with a specific purpose.

IMHO, you can't have it both ways, saying that one is a tool, while the other is not a tool, but ONLY a weapon for killing. Used for killing or not, it is still a tool for it's intended use.

Guncollector1982
July 3, 2010, 02:15 AM
http://www.opd.ohio.gov/RC_Casebook/deadly_weapons.htm

seems valid anyways some court cases that provide legal basis that anything can be used as a weapon. There are links to full documention i guess if you wanna call it that within the summarys of the cases. My view on whether a gun is a tool or a weapon doesnt matter, just pointing out then when basically anything is used in a dangerous manner the court can call it a weapon as well.

GRIZ22
July 3, 2010, 02:36 AM
Weapons. I don't even know how this "guns are tools" business got started.

I agree. "Guns are tools" seems to be an attempt to make them more PC to the undecided. Guns are supposed to dangerous, they would be worthless as weapons if they weren't. Everything has a degree of danger attached to it, some moreso than others.

LouisCipher777
July 3, 2010, 02:58 AM
the idea that guns are anything other than a deadly weapon is just some P.C. crap to detract from the fact that we have a natural right to defend what is ours with deadly force if necessary. the point of a gun is that they are deadly weapons, the great equalizer in a fight, and a serious advantage otherwise. stop acting like they need to be "tools" in order to justify our right to carry them. Advantages are taken, not handed out.

"If you want you cannot take it from me
If you think you can you still don't know me
Let me tell you, when I said it I meant it
And I will always have the right to defend it"

-Slipknot

Zoidberg523
July 3, 2010, 06:50 AM
stop acting like they need to be "tools" in order to justify our right to carry them.

Just because I (or anyone else) classifies something as tool, doesn't mean we are trying to justify anything (or at least, I am not). It is simply how I classify it. The only justification I (or anyone else) need(s) is the Bill of Rights. What does political correctness have to do with someone's personal classification for something? I assure you, I could not care one iota what some gun hating idiot thinks of my right to bear arms, arms which I also consider to be tools. You seem to be the one concerned with the political aspect.

ETA:
we have a natural right to defend what is ours with deadly force if necessary

Absolutely. And with the best tools we have available! :neener:

Seriously, this classification thing just comes down to personal preference. Whether you see them as tools, as weapons, or as weapons which are tools, you are still upholding our right to keep and bear arms - a right that shall not be infringed. So it doesn't really matter whether arms are just plain old arms, or if arms fall under the category of tools: Either way, we have a right to them that cannot (legally) be taken away.

cambeul41
July 3, 2010, 08:33 AM
Guns, tools or dangerous weapon?

Yes.

Guns have always been tools, as well as potential weapons.

Tool - object or device used to make a task easier.
Weapon -tool used to attack something or someone.

mustang_steve
July 3, 2010, 10:40 AM
Tool. Because it's up to the user on if it's used for "good" or "evil" purposes.

A sword can be a decoration, a weapon, or a tool....it's all in the application.

So can a pickaxe, shovel, walking stick or scythe. They are all tools that can be used as weapons. In some applications they may qualify as decor for some rustic looking restaurant as well.

However, this is all mental whacking over the real issue: what can we do to keep firearms out of the hands of violent people? That's simple, remove the violent people until they are no longer violent, or they are no more themselves. However that opens up another can of worms, as it seems very few are a good judge on this, and it's pretty inhumane and inefficient to leave people locked up for decades....but that leads to a bigger and possibly more off-topic can of worms.

The problem is the people, and the glorification of violence in our society, not the fact that guns are prevalent. Arguing if it's a tool or weapon is irrelevant as that will vary upon how it's being used. I call mine tools until they are used as weapons, then when the weapon use is done, they will be referred to as tools again.

Deanimator
July 3, 2010, 10:48 AM
1. What good is a weapon that's NOT dangerous?
2. A tool is a physical device that you can use to accomplish a task. If you kick in my door while I'm fixing a meal and I don't have my firearm on me, I'm coming after you with a very large kitchen knife in order to buy time to get to a gun. Does that mean that that knife has lost its utility for cutting chicken breasts. No, in the words of Alton Brown, it (and my Glock 22) are "multi-taskers".

I can use my knife to cut chicken breasts or home invaders. I can use my M1911 to punch holes in paper or home invaders.

Tallinar
July 3, 2010, 11:10 AM
Both?

Let's not forget that the firearm was, in fact, designed with warfare in mind. It is a weapon.

A tool is an object created to aid a person in accomplishing a specific activity. A weapon is a tool designed to incapacitate and take life. A firearm is a weapon; a weapon is a tool.

You can't separate the facts that guns are weapons, and that weapons are tools.

danez71
July 3, 2010, 11:10 AM
I'm not a big supporter of unsing the term "tool" for a gun.

If you look up the definition of tool vs machine, you'll clearly see that it better fits the definition of a machine.

Tool http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tool
1 a : a handheld device that aids in accomplishing a task
2 a : something (as an instrument or apparatus) used in performing an operation or necessary in the practice of a vocation or profession

Machine http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/machine
(1) : an assemblage of parts that transmit forces, motion, and energy one to another in a predetermined manner (2) : an instrument (as a lever) designed to transmit or modify the application of power, force, or motion f : a mechanically, electrically, or electronically operated device for performing a task

However, "tool" sounds more harmless than "machine" when trying to trivialize what it is to strengthen their arguement by making it sound like a file or a garden shovel. It doesnt cut mustered with most people and IMO it shouldnt.

IMO, calling it a "tool" doesnt help the cause because its sounds like youre trying to trivialize and it make you sound too extreme right.

"Machine" is more accurate. A "machine" can be used as a "tool".

However, do you want all of the same regulations applied to your gun as do your car? License, yearly registration, insurance, training, state sets the requirements.

If you trivialize guns down to that of a garden shovel..... it must not be very important.

Its a gun. It was designed for different purposes. The 2A protects it.

Call it what it is so the 2A will continue to protect it. Dont trivialize it.

Now... feel free to argue that its no more dangerous than a chain saw or automobile or a screw driver. But dont trivialize it down to a Barbie garden shovel.

EDIT to add: I feel equally as strong that it shouldnt be called a weapon either as that pigeon holes into something that only causes harm.

Deanimator
July 3, 2010, 12:23 PM
You can't separate the facts that guns are weapons, and that weapons are tools.
My Giles .38 Special M1911 is a MISERABLE weapon, with low power and limited magazine capacity and a bulky and relatively fragile optical sight. On the other hand, it's a marvelous tool for bullseye competition which has done very well for me.

My fixed sight Glock 19 is a miserable bullseye competition gun, with a long, not crisp trigger pull and inferior sights for target shooting. It won't even shoot full wadcutters for a clean hole in the paper. On the other hand, it's a marvelous tool for concealed carry and general self-defense.

My Giles CAN be used as a "weapon". But then again, so can my glucose meter. I wouldn't CHOOSE to use either for that purpose.

Zoogster
July 3, 2010, 02:01 PM
Tool. Because it's up to the user on if it's used for "good" or "evil" purposes.

A sword can be a decoration, a weapon, or a tool....it's all in the application.

And a nuclear weapon can be a silo space holder, or ballast in a submarine. :p






Your right to arms is what is protected in the United States.
Arguing they are not arms is like arguing they are not protected.
The whole purpose of your right to arms is so you can have something that poses a danger to other people, specifically soldiers and other agents of the governments of the world (per the US founders.)

If the purpose of guns was to shoot paper and hunt, or be decorations, they would be much easier to ban.
It is one of the reasons they are so easy to target in places that do not recognize or promote their use in self defense, or restrict their possession or storage to such an extent that self defense is impractical.
Their negative potential uses are no longer outweighed by their positive uses when they are just recreational tools.

Sunray
July 3, 2010, 02:21 PM
Inanimate objects, be they firearms or hammers, cannot be dangerous without humans being involved.

inSight-NEO
July 3, 2010, 07:56 PM
Guns are indeed tools (of a sort)... which happen to fire projectiles; nail guns, anybody?

We all use specific tools for specific jobs. How or when (and how safely/responsibly) such items are used is entirely up to the user.

Unfortunately, guns make for a much more interesting topic (via the media and politicians) than screwdrivers, hammers or drills, to name a few potentially "dangerous" tools, when death is involved.

Now, if the majority of crimes today involved the use of, lets say, chainsaws, I bet guns would no longer be so ravaged by the media and politicians and/or feared by the general public. Unfortunately the chainsaw is not all that practical, in this case!

Either way, it comes down to the person behind the object...not the object in front of the person; regardless of whether or not this object is a "tool."

danez71
July 4, 2010, 12:31 AM
Inanimate objects, be they firearms or hammers, cannot be dangerous without humans being involved.

Not really true.

Ever hear of spontaneous combustion?
Heres an instance that happened just a few days ago; a dead house plant.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/local-breaking-news/maryland/plants-spontaneous-combustion.html



I'd actually like to hear the arguements in favor of calling them a tool instead of a gun. What is the rationale behind it? Why trivialize what they are? Why would you not want to use the terms that the SCOTUS just reaffirmed you have the right to have?

the iron horse
July 4, 2010, 12:39 AM
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.

~Matthew 15:9

Oyeboten
July 4, 2010, 02:06 AM
Guns, tools or dangerous weapons? What is your view and why?


The phrasing of the original question is where the problem lie.


It is like asking "Dogs, are they Animals? Or dangerous Biters?"


Since people like the phrase "Dangerous Weapons", maybe someone can tell me what kind of sense the phrase even makes?


What 'Weapons' are not 'Dangerous'? In this sort of thinking, for the word dangerous to even need to be used in qualifying the word 'Weapon'?

May as well also say, for dramatic purposes, "Wet Water".

Possibly what people mean to say, is that Guns are practical and versatile Weapons, able to address specific Targets at some kind of distance with alacrity...if only occasionally 'deadly' in actual practice.


This makes Guns easier and more extemporaneous to use for an average person, than say, Usery, Food additives, Taxes, STDs, Smog, Microwave Radiation, Hatchets, Spears, Darning Needles, Hat Pins, Bureaucracy, injecting an Air Embolism event with an empty Syringe, bickering a spouse to death over decades, Atomic Radiation, releasing Serin Gas, Blunt Trauma to the Head, Strangulation by Ligature, Cyanide, etc...all of which of course are and remain potentially 'deadly' means of damaging or killing someone, or, lots of someones.

scythefwd
July 4, 2010, 04:19 AM
Both. It is a tool when I am hunting, shooting at paper. It is a dangerous weapon when I need it for self defense. It wasn't a tool when I was in a combat zone, it was a weapon in offensive and defensive nature. It's whole purpose was to kill. When I am hunting, it is a tool to get the meat, of which there are other just as good options and it held a harvesting nature. When I am punching paper, it is a tool to put the hole in the paper.

Whether something is a tool or a weapon is relevant to the use the thing holding it intends for it. A piece of chipped obsidian is a tool in a surgeons hands, and a weapon in a chimps hands. A knife is a tool in a fishermans hands and a weapon in a muggers hands. I would say that an item is a tool when it's use is utilitarian.

FirearmsEnthusiast
July 4, 2010, 04:37 AM
My Pardini SP .22 isn't a weapon, it's a gun.

ArfinGreebly
July 4, 2010, 04:54 AM
I didn't buy firearms because they were "tools," but rather because they are an effective ranged weapon.

I didn't appreciate that they were tools until some time later.

The "tool" appellation, however, is more a philosophical treatment than one of practicality.

The practical application of a gun is the ranged impingement of force -- a more efficient way of delivering holes at a distance -- for constructive or destructive lethal purpose. A man can defend himself, his family, his community from far enough away that his risk of harm is minimized. A man can harvest game at range, increasing his chances of survival, and those of his family and community.

It has been said, disparagingly, that a man using a gun is "compensating" for something. And so he is.

He's compensating for the inability of a human to hurl a half ounce of lead at Mach 2 over 300 yards.

In its most essential use, a gun delivers lethal force at a distance. Notice, however, that this expression of essential use does not include "indiscriminately" as a parameter.

Firearms have always included "direction" (or vector, if you prefer) in their application of force.

Direction implies control. Modern firearms have improved control to the point where the term precision may be used.

Control and precision imply judgment and deliberation.

And thus we come to intent.

As with any other piece of machinery, its "dangerousness" is a function of the intent of the operator.

Yes, firearms are weapons. However, as one appreciates that their employment properly involves precision, control, and judgment, it can be seen that, even as a weapon, its role is as the tool of intent. Without the intent, it's just another piece of machinery, subject to the same kind of caution and respect due any machinery.

The "dangerousness" of a gun lies in what you mean to do with it.

To the man whose motivation is beneficial order, it is, indeed, only a tool.

22-rimfire
July 4, 2010, 11:17 AM
Is a nail gun a tool or weapon? Could be either depending on intent, but normally it is a classified as a tool.

scythefwd
July 4, 2010, 11:37 AM
It's main purpose is the role of a tool. A gun, it depends. An Anschutz target rifle has the main purpose as a tool (to put holes in paper, a really expensive hole punch) where an M16's main purpose is a weapon (I'll let you figure that out). Guns can be either because the main purpose they were bought for can be either. It all depends on the intent of the owner. I doubt anyone has gone out and bought a nail gun for the sole purpose of using it as a weapon.

Arkansas Paul
July 4, 2010, 11:41 AM
They are both.
As far being a dangerous weapon, I should hope that if I'm attacked without provocation and my life is threatened, that it would be dangerous for the other guy. That's kind of the point.

ozarkgunner
July 4, 2010, 11:44 AM
I think any thing depending on its use can make it a "tool". I got this from Webster's

Main Entry: 1tool
Pronunciation: \ˈtül\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English tōl; akin to Old English tawian to prepare for use — more at taw
Date: before 12th century
1 a : a handheld device that aids in accomplishing a task b (1) : the cutting or shaping part in a machine or machine tool (2) : a machine for shaping metal : machine tool
2 a : something (as an instrument or apparatus) used in performing an operation or necessary in the practice of a vocation or profession <a scholar's books are his tools> b : an element of a computer program (as a graphics application) that activates and controls a particular function <a drawing tool> c : a means to an end <a book's cover can be a marketing tool> d often vulgar : penis
3 : one that is used or manipulated by another

By that, anything used to accomplish a task could be considered a tool. I could use my butter knife to spread peanut butter on some bread, or I could be lazzy and use it to turn a screw. Either way it is a "tool".
I'm not gonna justify my possesion, carry, and use of a gun by calling it a tool. Their very inception was meant to be a "deadly tool" used to kill things.(this will probly get used against me some how) But, a "tool" is anyting that helps us accomplish a task. A gun in this case helps us accomplish the task of taking a deer while hunting, getting rid of vermin in a field or back yard, plinking targets, or used to defend ourselves and others. LE carry many "deadly tools" to accomplish their daily tasks.

And also, any "normal" tool, can be used as a dealy weapon. How many people have been hurt and or killed by hammers, chainsaws, screw drivers, etc.

Guns can be both, depending on their use.

RDCL
July 4, 2010, 12:10 PM
I myself never thought of guns as "tools".

How many times i've heard guys say "don't worry about the scratch.....it's just a tool". I disagree. Screwdrivers & hammers are tools.

"Tools" are items like wrenches & screwdrivers one tosses into a toolbox tray without concern. Do we store our guns by tossing them into a toolbox of sorts? No. Never. We put them away gently and carefully......but most of all.....we put them away clean.
My Dewalt cordless drill is a tool. I'm not the least bit concerned about my cordless drill getting a scratch on it or getting dirty...IT....is JUST a "tool".

So, what are guns then? They are precsion instruments with fine finishes. Yes, I suppose anything called a precision instrument is in fact a "tool"
but to me there is a huge difference in something you toss into a toolbox and something you sitdown in an easy chair with a cup of coffee and polish & admire.
Even in the "working" role (law enforcement, for example).......they are weapons. pure and simple.

Colt 1911 45 ACP=WEAPON

dewalt cordless=TOOL

As weapons in the working role or precision instruments in the sporting role....they are inherintly dangerous if handled or used improperly.......but there's the rub...."handled" or "used improperly".......so one could truley state that guns (or ANY object for that matter)......are completely harmless until a human being enters the picture!

So yes.....human beings are dangerous. Not guns.


....just another opinion

TCB in TN
July 4, 2010, 01:38 PM
Just phrasing the question as it was given to me.


Personally I don't see looking at guns as tools makes them trivial in any manner. I use a .22 cal rifle to prac and become a more proficient shooter. I carry a lever action rifle to hunt because it give me greater range and accuracy than a bow, and is IMHO handier and easier to handle than the average bolt action rifle. I carry a small pistol because there are bad people out there in the world that I might run into, and IMHO it is the best way for me to protect me and mine! They are the tools I use for those specific jobs. I don't see how that makes them trivial in any way.

22-rimfire
July 4, 2010, 01:49 PM
Guns are guns. They are both tools and weapons. What you personally think about guns is probably embedded as a result of your life's experience. Makes no difference to me if you consider them weapons first and tools second or simply weapons that you use for certain purposes.

rogertc1
July 4, 2010, 01:51 PM
Guns are a sport just like a football but shoot projectiles to hit A target. I guess the football is a tool to play the game as it hits a target,

wep45
July 4, 2010, 04:18 PM
guns, forks, toilet paper.................you use 'em when you need 'em:neener:

kayak-man
July 4, 2010, 05:09 PM
I grew up with the "guns are tools" philosophy. I admit, it is a tool with a very specific purpose. Kind of like a drill press.

you wouldn't use a gun to cut down a tree (unless you happen to own a LOT of land, and have one or more NFA firearms)

Or put your target on a smallish tree and decide to put a hundred or so rounds through your Saiga...

Millwright
July 4, 2010, 10:15 PM
Don't own any "dangerous guns", myself. I either fix them or junk them !! >MW

oldfool
July 4, 2010, 11:04 PM
I thunk I was the only one here old enough to remember Venn !
but if doing Venn diagrams, you could optionally include some circles labeled "design intent"
subjectively a tad more complex
(logic is not as objective as mathematics alone would imply, never was, you know; humans never were rational beings, just beings who rationalize)

MinnMooney
July 5, 2010, 01:19 AM
Let's put it into some sort of rateable perspective. I spend equal time shooting, mowing, chain-sawing and reading novels.

Number of times hurt from each :

Shooting : 0
Mowing : 5
Chain-sawing : 2
Reading Novels : 1*

That makes shooting as my safest activity followed closely by reading novels. Damn that mowing the lawn!:barf:

* I fell asleep and rolled off the couch.:o

Guncollector1982
July 5, 2010, 01:50 AM
Hey Minn....your lawn mower aint a Husqvarna is it..... :) they make chainsaws to...

toycruiser71
July 5, 2010, 01:56 AM
It's a weapon. Gun's were originally designed for two purposes. Putting food on the table and killing your enemy. As firearms evolved, so did their uses. We started shooting for enjoyment, punching holes in paper and other shooting sports, skeet etc. What we call them is strictly semantics. If a person wants to call them tools, weapons, paperweights, it doesn't matter, they will always be weapons first and foremost. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, thank God and our Founding Fathers. I thoroughly enjoy owning and shooting my weapons.

Oyeboten
July 5, 2010, 05:09 AM
All Horses are Mammals.

Not all Mammals are Horses.


If we could grasp that, we ought to be able to grasp that all Guns are 'Tools', even if not all Tools are Guns.


Tangible Weapons of any sort, are various kinds of Tools.


'Tool', is the Super Category...under which secondary categories or classifications are organized.

Just like in Taxonomy...there are hierarchies of Category and Brachiation.

Hondo 60
July 5, 2010, 11:35 AM
Guns are BOTH tools & dangerous weapons.

It all depends on who's holding it.

A responsible adult who's out hunting or target shooting will have the necessary tool in his/her hand.

Some punk who's up to no good will have a dangerous weapon in their hand

danez71
July 5, 2010, 12:07 PM
(As stated, I dont like the term tool or weapon.)

So, when you ("you" generally speaking) want someone to hand you a screw driver.... do you ask them to hand you a "tool"?

When you're out shooting with your buddies.... do you ask them if you can shoot their tool? (no pun intended ladies and gents)

Same thing.... do you ask them if you can shoot their weapon?


For a group to (typically) be SO insistant on using the 'correct' term "mags/magazines" I find it almost odd that they want to call a gun a tool.

Im not trying be a pie-hole... seriously, whats the 'advantage' of calling it a tool and why the double standard as compared to magazine and clip?

scythefwd
July 5, 2010, 12:25 PM
danez71 - Actually, I have asked to fire someone's weapon. It was an AR, and I didn't know what caliber it was chambered in. All I know is that is sounded like it was silenced compared to my .308

GEM
July 5, 2010, 04:36 PM
I'll repeat myself - constitutional protection only accrues if the gun is a weapon.

There is not a constitutional protection of instruments that are tools for uses other than as a weapon.

I know ONE tool usage of a firearm and that instrument is not allowable to the general public.

Zoidberg523
July 9, 2010, 02:31 AM
I'll repeat myself - constitutional protection only accrues if the gun is a weapon.

There is not a constitutional protection of instruments that are tools for uses other than as a weapon.

Absolutely - the Bill of Rights protects firearms as a weapon. However, the term "weapon" falls under the larger, broader heading of "tools". :neener:

thorazine
July 9, 2010, 03:19 AM
Guns, tools or dangerous weapons? What is your view and why?

Neither.

Just another toy to spend ($$$) on.

Tool sounds too purpose driven.

chaplain tom
July 9, 2010, 03:48 AM
As for guns being dangerous weapons, I agree an earlier post that read something like this. "I don't own any dangerous guns, I either fix them or junk them." And the philosophy that guns are not dangerous, people are. That great American philosopher Archie Bunker once said when Gloria confronted him with stats on how many people had been killed with guns the year before, "Would it make you feel any better little goil if they was pushed outta windows?" I believe that says it all...

GEM
July 9, 2010, 12:21 PM
The gun is a subset of a tool definition is nice semantics. However, the tool argument is used not as an academic, semantic debate but by some as an RKBA defense.

The gun is not dangerous as it is a tool. Look a chainsaw is dangerous.

Thus, please Mr. Anti - don't take away or regulate my not so dangerous tool.

But again dangerous tools for construction and chemistry are heavily regulated. You don't walk into Walmart and buy a gallon of cyanide.

Also, as I said before, if you try to convince someone not of the choir that a gun is just a tool and shouldn't be regulated - they will think you are quite silly. They will then probably ignore other pro-RKBA arguments.

You cannot protect gun rights by trying to downplay their use as weapons.

The sporting argument failed in the UK and Australia - no one bought it.

Zoidberg523
July 9, 2010, 09:26 PM
However, the tool argument is used not as an academic, semantic debate but by some as an RKBA defense.

I agree, and I also agree that that approach is foolish, as the RKBA needs no defense or reason - it is a right. However, here, among other fellow gun enthusiasts, a debate in semantics is exactly what it amounts to.

We all (I assume?) believe in the RKBA, and so this discussion becomes, not a debate over the defense of the 2nd Amendment, but a simple debate over classification.

You cannot protect gun rights by trying to downplay their use as weapons.

I FULLY agree. As I stated previously, they are protected as weapons. However, scientifically, "weapons" (as handheld devices that help accomplish a task [Webster's definition of a tool] - be it cutting, putting holes in things, or even killing) belong under the heading of "tools".

danez71
July 9, 2010, 11:21 PM
I agree, and I also agree that that approach is foolish, as the RKBA needs no defense or reason - it is a right. However, here, among other fellow gun enthusiasts, a debate in semantics is exactly what it amounts to.

We all (I assume?) believe in the RKBA, and so this discussion becomes, not a debate over the defense of the 2nd Amendment, but a simple debate over classification.

I FULLY agree. As I stated previously, they are protected as weapons. However, scientifically, "weapons" (as handheld devices that help accomplish a task [Webster's definition of a tool] - be it cutting, putting holes in things, or even killing) belong under the heading of "tools".


I agree.

Everyone needs to quit defining "tool". The word "tool" is not in the 2A. This isnt a "tool" forum. And the anti's are trying to ban your "tools"

Sir William Blackstone, 1723-1780, wrote on common law shortly before the Declaration of Independence was written. Blackstone law book/legal dictionary is the standard still today.

Look up "arms" in Blackstones or any other legal dictionary and see what it says. Hint: "Tools" are not mentioned but "guns" and "firearms" are (as well as "weapons").

The 2A says "arms". We all know that... but many here keep defining "tool" for some unknown reason of which is not even relevant to the 2A.

I'll ask for the 3rd time.... what benefit does calling them "tools" provide? No one has even tried to answered that.

Seriously. I'd like to hear that side of the arguement

oakchas
July 10, 2010, 12:12 AM
Based on dictionary definitions:

A firearm is a tool for a professional (cop, guard, soldier, etc.) in that it is part of the equipment he/she must have to preform his/her duty.

A firearm is a toy (or, more broadly; recreational equipment) to a hobbiest shooter ( shooting sports)

A firearm is a weapon for self preservation (whether killing food or defending self). And it cannot be readily used as a tool.

Historically, it's primary design function was to kill, remotely.

All other tool's and toy's primary design function is NOT to cause injury or to kill.

Even the knife, in the grand scheme of things, is a weapon.. Historically it's primary use was to kill (not as remotely as a firearm). After it killed something, with the help of the operator, it could also be used to disassemble the kill into more edible chunks. which made it also a tool, I suppose.

A spear is a weapon, a knife to which a stick has been added, in order to kill somewhat more remotely. Cannot readily be used as a tool.

An arrow is a weapon, a small knife attached to a shorter stick, propelled by either a sling stick, or a bow... to kill even more remotely. Cannot readily be used as a tool.


At the far end of the spectrum, we have bombs... they are also weapons, designed to kill even more remotely, and in larger quantities. Canot be readily used as a tool.


Wow, I said alot in my first post... but I think I managed to say what I think makes the distinction... from a historical perspective.

Harley Rider 55
July 10, 2010, 01:12 AM
Tool
It allows you to accomplish something you ordinarily couldn't do without a tool. You cannot tighten the heads on an engine with your bare hands - you must have a wrench. You cannot choke a grown grizzly bear to death - but you can kill it with a firearm.

General Geoff
July 10, 2010, 02:30 AM
You cannot choke a grown grizzly bear to death

Tell that to C. Dale Peterson.

Harley Rider 55
July 10, 2010, 02:34 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Could he tighten head bolts using the kung fu grip?:D

General Geoff
July 10, 2010, 02:37 AM
You know... I would not bet against it.

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