Future for 5.45x39


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regal
July 3, 2010, 10:02 AM
I found an old thread about the 5.45x39 ammo situation. Seemed consensus was that so few country's are using it that it will be phased out.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=266682

Now 4 years later there is a resurgance in the popularity of the round, it has a reputation in the middle east as the famous "poison bullet." CAI is selling thousands of AK-74's. The ammo is going up in price not due to lack of supply but due to an overwhelming demand. Even S&W has a 5.45x39 rifle.

Looking at the old thread is the opinion here ther same. I think the reputation of 7.62x39 will never allow it to be a NATO caliber, but the world but with international politics as they are could the 5.45x39 become a NATO round, or at the least adopted by more militaries around the rould?

I have chosen it to be my main caliber, I love shooting the low recoil with the 74 brake, I love the AK reliability. I train more with this caliber than any other.

I think it has advantages over 7.62x39, even NATO 5.56. Of course you can by espensive 5.56 that exceeds its performance but does the standard NATO round?

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wally
July 3, 2010, 10:19 AM
Hornady is loading their V-max bullet in Russian steel cases. if the Russian imports dry up, I'm sure they'll be happy to load it in more expensive brass cases.

I think the caliber has hit "critical mass" in the US recently, so while it won't be the cheapest to shoot once the corrosive surplus ammo dries up, I don't think getting ammo will ever be any more problem for it now than it has recently been for .380, .7.62, 5.56 etc. -- Academy has had Monarch 5.54x39 in stock while 5.56 and .7.62 was all gone.

regal
July 3, 2010, 10:38 AM
Good to hear with this still being a popular caliber and maybe not as popular as projected they may be huge amounts of surplus. The way I understand 7.62x39 is it isn't imported as surplus since it is a "pistol" caliber, not the case with 5.45.

SharpsDressedMan
July 3, 2010, 12:52 PM
My questions are "Why do we need a Nato standard cartridge?", AND, "Why do we need a Nato at all?" The Cold War is what called for a NATO pact to begin with, and we don't have any unilateral support from MOST of the NATO countries now (look who is helping us with "terror" threats in Afghanistan and the Mideast.:rolleyes:)

wally
July 3, 2010, 12:57 PM
The way I understand 7.62x39 is it isn't imported as surplus since it is a "pistol" caliber

This makes no sense. 7.62x25 is pistol ammo and tons of Polish mil surplus ammo is imported, as is Bulgarian and Romanian, although not so easy to find now. Corrosive surplus Yugo 7.62x39 is readily available too.

General Tso
July 3, 2010, 01:28 PM
I hope it stays. I just bought a SW AR in 5.45!

General Tso
July 3, 2010, 01:29 PM
Also, isn't it the main round of the Russian army?

regal
July 3, 2010, 01:35 PM
You're right, why is it that the 7.62x39 surplus isn't imported? Seems all that is for sale is Wolf.

CornCod
July 3, 2010, 02:03 PM
I have seen 7.62X39 Yugoslav (or Serbian if you like) surplus on sale at Classic Arms.

nathan
July 3, 2010, 02:19 PM
It will be around as long the Great Russian Army uses it.

wnycollector
July 3, 2010, 02:38 PM
I LOVE 5.45x39. I'm on my 2nd 1080 round tin of bulgarian 7n6 since may! It's (almost) cheaper to shoot 7n6 than to shoot as my pistol caliber carbines! I'm going through 100-150 rounds/week @ $0.114/round. Every chance I get I pick up 2 spam cans of 5.45x39 so that I can stock up at this price!

This reminds me of the 1200 round cases of chinese 7.62x39 I used to get 20 years ago or the romanian 8mm and hungarian 7.62x54r that were $0.08/round up until mid 2007!

OneWithEverything
July 3, 2010, 02:47 PM
Surplus 7.62x39mm, aside from the Yugoslavian M67, cannot be imported because the M43 cartridge has a mild steel core. Thanks to BATFE rulings and some legislative gayidity, The mild steel-cored M43 surplus is designated as an "armor piercing handgun round." Steel core handgun ammunition is a no-no, and thanks to the pistols chambered in 7.62x39mm, the surplus cannot be imported.

Yugoslavian M67 gets around that blockade because it has a lead core.

RP88
July 3, 2010, 02:50 PM
You're right, why is it that the 7.62x39 surplus isn't imported? Seems all that is for sale is Wolf.

7.62x39 is still imported. However, some from certain countries, such as China, is not importable because it has a mild steel core and thus counts as an armor-piercing round according to the whims of the ATF.

.223 from Pakistan, Belgian and Swiss ammo, Russian ammo, Romanian and ComBloc ammo, etc. all get here just fine.

And the reason why so few countries use it is because the vast majority of countries either use something else or never bothered to switch from the x39 platform. Not every country out there is made of money to switch guns every couple of decades.

Hatterasguy
July 3, 2010, 11:31 PM
Its a good round, just as good as the 5.56. AFAIK its the main round of the Russian military, they just introduced the AK-200.

5.45 isn't going anywhere.

mshootnit
July 3, 2010, 11:43 PM
where in the Sam tarnished hell did you find an old thread like that? I will tell you the future of the 5.45 is damned bleak. Just like everything else Communist. The damn round is a pud shoot it beside a 223 and you'll see. I like shooting rifles and ammo that give me a better than 50% chance of hitting what I am aiming at.

metalman8600
July 4, 2010, 01:19 AM
Why do we need a Nato at all?

Who else is going to do the NWO's bidding? :scrutiny::uhoh:

M1key
July 4, 2010, 01:42 AM
To whom it may concern:

The Saiga in 5.45x39 is capable of 1.5 MOA or less with either commercial or mil spec ammo. Many ARs in 5.56 can't shoot that well.

GunsBeerFreedom
July 4, 2010, 02:32 AM
I'd love to see the 5.45 become more mainstream in the reloading area. Dies are currently as much as a case of ammo!

Ignition Override
July 4, 2010, 02:49 AM
regal:

About a year ago I somehow stumbled onto a British/Euro arms control website.
I might not have bookmarked it (forgot the title), but it described how foreign taxpayer money helps some countries destroy huge heaps of surplus military guns and ammo.

The primary objective seemed to be the AK-47s, to keep them away from African etc warlords who arm child soldiers with them.

Not long ago, an Aussie contacted a friend in South Africa who happened to visit his local gun shop. South Africa was reportedly being paid to order the destruction of all old bolt-action Lee-Enfield rifles, not just Brens etc and the ammo.

CA Senator Diane Feinstein (who has a carry permit) has been pushing the UN to also be involved in this. A huge amount of the UN's funds are US taxpayer dollars.

Jeremy2171
July 4, 2010, 09:51 AM
where deleted -- Sam did you find an old thread like that? I will tell you the future of the 5.45 is damned bleak. Just like everything else Communist. The damn round is a pud shoot it beside a 223 and you'll see. I like shooting rifles and ammo that give me a better than 50% chance of hitting what I am aiming at.
Apparently you haven't been shooting a 5.45 rifle.....

mshootnit
July 4, 2010, 03:27 PM
Jeremy,

Go get you an 8X12 steel plate and hang it at 200 yds. Then take your open sights 74 clone and start banging away. If you can make better than 50% hits with it you are a hell of a shot, and might possess extra sensory powers.

Ingsoc75
July 4, 2010, 05:44 PM
Go get you an 8X12 steel plate and hang it at 200 yds. Then take your open sights 74 clone and start banging away. If you can make better than 50% hits with it you are a hell of a shot, and might possess extra sensory powers.

That has more to do with the craftsmanship of the rifle than the ammo itself I would think.

winchester '97
July 4, 2010, 07:00 PM
Russia still uses it so i would say its availability will outlive most of us, i mean look at how available 7.62x39 is, 40 some years after the soviets phased it out.

Also: mshootnit, either you had a terrible rifle or you really are not a good shot with irons, most 5.45 rifles could hit a plate like that more like 90% of the time with a good shooter, a basic polish Tantal or arsenal build will do that easy, as will a lanchastor '74, or any '74 with a nodak receiver and a decent barrel really, chances are the rifle you saw perform poorly was romanian, those things are bad news in 5.45x39! The real problem with the rifles is the irons just downright suck, with a red dot or scope they will amaze you.

The round has a hollow cavity in the tip, causing the tip to bend and the bullet to tumble, it doesnt need as much velocity to produce a similar killing effect. Also, based on the AK-47 and the T series tanks, i would say alot of things communist have a rather bright future. PLEASE don't take offense or be one of those people that derails the thread with a bunch of nationalist/ anti communist stuff, nobody likes an interesting thread getting closed becuase of an arguement.

Jeremy2171
July 4, 2010, 07:33 PM
Jeremy,

Go get you an 8X12 steel plate and hang it at 200 yds. Then take your open sights 74 clone and start banging away. If you can make better than 50% hits with it you are a hell of a shot, and might possess extra sensory powers.
You should have been at our last steel plate match...the plates were the size you mentioned....I was using an RPK74 and an AK74 and did rather well...at both 200 and 300yds..

You should have seen the French Berthier Mle16 at 300 yds as well...was able to pound the 8x12 plates with ease.....

I might ask what 5.45 rifle you fired that shot so bad...I do know that for a while some of the US barrels had the .224 bore instead of the .221 bore required to shoot 5.45 ammo accurately..

mshootnit
July 5, 2010, 03:42 AM
I have owned a CUR2 and an Arsenal SGL-31 and shot five or six types of ammo through each one, Best accuracy was 2 MOA with the CUR2 the SGL wouldn't touch 2 MOA more like 4 MOA. I shoot KVAR 04s mounts, BP-02 Mounts etc, with Leupold scopes and rings, and I just finished banging a 525 yard sillouette with a national match Springfield M1a, so I would say I can shoot open sights OK. The 5.45's I have shot were noticeably quieter (less powerful) than 223's and not very accurate. Thats a fact. But you have to admit accuracy and marksmanship is not a part of the russian military doctrine. That being said I can't find anything inherently wrong with the design of the round just that I have shot several milled 7.62's that I am pretty sure were better.

HorseSoldier
July 5, 2010, 08:26 AM
Go get you an 8X12 steel plate and hang it at 200 yds. Then take your open sights 74 clone and start banging away. If you can make better than 50% hits with it you are a hell of a shot, and might possess extra sensory powers.

During Larry Vicker's AK class back in 2008 on the walk backs I think the winner was making hits on a steel plate the size of an IPSC C zone at something like 200. The pack stayed pretty strong, mostly shooting standing and on a clock, back to 150 or so. A couple guys were shooting Aimpoints or Kobra red dots, but the majority were just shooting iron sights. I didn't notice any real differential between guys shooting 7.62x39, 5.45 or 5.56mm AKs, or the one guy running a vz.58s.

I took his advanced carbine class at the same range, shooting the same drill, where that class was dominated by M4-type guns, plus a Sig 556, a SCAR-L an FN factory rep brought, and maybe some other reputable 5.56 design somewhere in the mix. To be honest, I didn't see the guys in that walk back performing much better on hits, though I think shot times were better, especially as the range stretched out.

One thing that was notable during the AK class is the fact that we zeroed weapons before we started shooting. It doesn't seem like many people bother with this, I guess because AKs are inaccurate junk so why bother? At the end of the day the usual observation seems to hold true -- everything is exaggerated on the internet. AKs are much more accurate than duh intranet would lead one to believe, ARs are much more reliable, 5.56mm is much more lethal, and 45 ACP is a lackluster man stopper.

RatDrall
July 5, 2010, 09:51 AM
The Russians using it means nothing, in relation to us being able to get ahold of it.

All that has to happen is more restriction on the import of ammunition and either...

1. No more ammo is available.

or

2. Expensive, domestically produced ammo is all that is available.

If I had one, I would be stocking up on those cheap cases of ammo now.

Sam1911
July 5, 2010, 10:39 AM
The Russians using it means nothing, in relation to us being able to get ahold of it.

All that has to happen is more restriction on the import of ammunition and either...

1. No more ammo is available.
or
2. Expensive, domestically produced ammo is all that is available.

If I had one, I would be stocking up on those cheap cases of ammo now.
Or the need is identified quickly by US manufacturers and...

3. It becomes roughly as available/costly as US made 5.56x45 (which would suck, but not be the end of the word); and,

4. Dies, brass, and bullets are finally profitable and (again) it costs almost exactly the same to reload as 5.56x45.

I'm certainly not worried, but I sure do enjoy $0.12 a round for the time being! :D

Sam1911
July 5, 2010, 10:40 AM
During Larry Vicker's AK class back in 2008 ...Had an almost identical experience at the end of '09 in a class of his at my club.

Except that the scoped ARs didn't do nearly quite as well. 'Course, a lot of that was shooter issues, not gun issues.

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