Range incident - opinions wanted


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parsimonious_instead
July 3, 2010, 05:29 PM
Disclaimer: I don't have a dog in this "fight" but I did observe an interesting conflict between two people at the range.
I'd like to know what you folks think.

The players: "Joe" - an old-timer who's belonged to and shot at the range for a very, very long time. At times he can be a "busybody" going up to people and talking to them about their guns (range has a supposed "no magnum load" rule for noise reduction), trying to remind them about rules and laws, etc.
"Jim" a much younger fellow who is a certified NRA instructor, who I believe was simply shooting there as a paid guest.
Neither man is a friend or a shooting buddy of mine.

Note that we have a rule here that I'm sure a lot of ranges have, as well - when people go out and change/setup/break down targets, everyone steps back from the firing line and no weapons are handled.

"Jim" seemed like a perfectly fine fellow at first. When I greeted him during target setup, we talked about the guns we brought with us. Everything seemed OK with the guy, although he answered my questions with a slightly unusual degree of zeal.

Once our targets were set, we took up our guns and shot them. During another break, I heard "Jim" say something like, "OKAY! I Got IT!" when "Joe" most likely reminded him about the "step away" rule.

That seemed to be the end of it, and during another break I wandered over to the stall "Jim" was using. "Joe" approached, and asked the man about the woman he was shooting with. "Oh, that's my ** yr old daughter"
"Oh, she's not under 21? Good for her, looking so much younger then her age." "Joe" replied. "Well, then, according to NY State law she shouldn't be shooting your guns." Joe added.
That really seemed to ruffle "Jim's" feathers. Suddenly very agitated, "Jim" dug into his range bag, and with rapidly rising anger unfolded his NRA certification and said, "This piece of paper says that I can teach anyone of any age how to shoot pistols!" "I can let anyone shoot any gun I have!" He replied.
"I'm just saying what the law says, "Joe" answered back.
That made "Jim" really blow his stack.
"This (expletive) piece of paper is my way of telling (expletive) like you that I can do whatever the (expletive) I want."
"Joe" who was probably about to leave anyway, took his stuff of the bench and went home.
"Jim" seemed to cool down about 50%, but I overheard a few minutes of complaining to his daughter about what "Joe" had said.

Here's my opinion - they were both very wrong. "Joe" shouldn't be such a busybody - he has every right to point out a safety violation, but the finer points of NYS handgun law should be left to police and the courts.
But "Jim" needs to chill out a bit, and see a talkative old man for who he is, and simply "yes" him until he goes away.
"Joe" didn't say anything suggestive, didn't touch anyone or anything that he shouldn't have.
I was brought up to respect one's elders, you DO NOT yell and curse at an old man unless they've put hands on you or your property, or started in with a verbal tirade.

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MartinS
July 3, 2010, 05:38 PM
Just one of a gazillion friction points in the world of man in action. Discuss for fun but hope it simmers down and can be remembered as random noise.

TylerPearce
July 3, 2010, 05:55 PM
If I were "Jim", i would have just calmly showed him the NRA certification. And if I were "Joe", I wouldn't have gotten into somebody's personal business. As long as nobody is being destructive with the firearm, why does their age matter? If anything, the older man should be encouraging young shooters.


Just my opinion though.

Nushif
July 3, 2010, 06:03 PM
I was brought up to respect one's elders, you DO NOT yell and curse at an old man unless they've put hands on you or your property, or started in with a verbal tirade.

Interesting point there, I was raised to not judge merit to someone based on their age, looks, or what have you. I guess we're different on that one. 8)

But the fight really seems like both folks were kinda errr ... poking at each other? I mean, just cause the guy has a fancy NRA card doesn't mean he can proverbially do whatever he wants, but frankly if someone started poking and prodding about my business like that at a range one of my first replies would be "Hey, can you tell me where this is going?" Especially at a range where we have someone obviously with an agenda already.

Why do people get so wound up at ranges anyhow? Can someone answer that? Because it doesn't seem to happen a lot here.

EddieNFL
July 3, 2010, 06:18 PM
I encountered a few folks with NRA credentials who seem to think the wallet sized cards somehow bestow special knowledge and power to the holder.

I've encountered a few folks who who want to educate shooters on every subject from safety to which firearm is best for them.

I typically turn my back on both types. That usually works.

highlander 5
July 3, 2010, 06:21 PM
Another case of knowing the "law" but not knowing the "law". Had something similar happen to me,in Ma high cap magaines made before 94 are illegal. In order to possess high caps for pistol or rifles you need a LTC A( which says "class A large capacity,license to carry" BTW). Was at the range one day and an observer saw my Berreta and my 6 high caps and was shocked that I had them. They went on to tell me that it was illegal for me to have them or carry them in my pistol. I informed him that they were made before 1994 and my permit allows me to have them. He was somewhat insistent on his point and I just ignored him till he went away. From the story above "Jim" sounds like he needs a bit thicker skin and "Joe needs to get up to date on laws and regs and learn some etiquite. Though you're not going to win with the range "know it all". My question is where was the range officer in this little tiff?

yeti
July 3, 2010, 06:29 PM
Jim needs to relearn the art of taping his ear muffs and feigning inability to hear, then just walk away after giving a friendly parting smile.

Taurus 617 CCW
July 3, 2010, 06:39 PM
My question is where was the range officer in this little tiff?

Some ranges operate on an informal basis and don't have a full time RSO present. The shooting range back in my home state was this way and range members were the acting RSO's. Somewhat like the honor system.

During the NRA RSO class that I took they stressed being patient and polite with people because situations such as the OP's can quickly get out of hand or escalate into something much more serious.

Lucky Derby
July 3, 2010, 06:44 PM
Both are in the wrong.
Personally I don't say anything to other shooters about what they are doing unless it is a safety issue AND there is not a range official to handle it. If a range official is present, I may point out a safety issue to the range official, if he/she doesn't notice it.
If someone were to try to explain some alleged law to me, I would ask them if they were a police officer charged with enforcing that law. If they said no, then I would ask them if they were a lawyer. If they said no, I would tell them they have no business giving legal advice, and that also constitutes a crime.
If they said yes to either question, I would pack up and leave.

Fremmer
July 3, 2010, 07:15 PM
I think Joe needs to mind his own business.

Edited to add: and I don't care how old Joe is.

wankerjake
July 3, 2010, 07:24 PM
So in NY you can't shoot someone else's guns if you are over 21?

parsimonious_instead
July 3, 2010, 07:32 PM
Wanker: The law is really bizarre... as anti-gun as NY State is, and as ludicrously cumbersome as the permitting process is, apparently it allows those without a pistol license to shoot handguns as long as they're between 14 and 20 years of age.

russ69
July 3, 2010, 07:50 PM
I don't run into this very often but there is no way to determine specific legally in most cases because you don't have enough information. There are so many allowable exceptions that 99% of the time you'll be wrong. I keep my opinions to myself at the range except when complimenting a person's shooting, equipment or a serious safety violation.
I would have informed Joe that if he thinks I'm breaking the law, then he needs to contact the police. I don't think we need club members to be the unpaid gun control agents for the police. If a club rule is being broken, then that should be handled the usual way, expulsion or warning, as appropriate.

Thanx, Russ

P.S. If a fellow whips out a full auto AR pistol and bursts a few rounds down range, I'm just going to smile and say, nice pistol. I'm not going to ask for his tax stamp and drivers licence, not my job.

Chemist
July 3, 2010, 08:11 PM
Of all the people I know the only ones that feel the need to talk about what is/isn't legal are the ones WITHOUT legal degrees. (Lawyers always want you to pay for their advice;)

Sounds like two guys <just arguing> to me. If I watched such an encounter I would leave.

JohnBT
July 3, 2010, 08:16 PM
"I was raised to not judge merit to someone based on their age"

It's not about merit, it's about manners. I guess we were raised differently.

John

rondog
July 3, 2010, 08:36 PM
Man, really makes me appreciate my club and it's range even more! 560 acres of private ranch land with over a dozen separate bermed ranges, you can nearly always have one to yourself except for the 600 yard high-power range, and it's usually empty too. Waaaay out in the eastern plains country of Colorado where even critters are sparse, only the serious shooters will join and make the drive! Never seen any fools or hangarounds. An outstanding place to shoot, especially early in the day.

ThePunisher'sArmory
July 3, 2010, 08:46 PM
Thats why im glad I don't live in NY. There are way too many "Jims" and "Joes" attitudes up there. However I do have to go with my wife to upstate NY next weekend. :(

KodiakBeer
July 3, 2010, 09:22 PM
Sounds like a ridiculous old man throwing an even more ridiculous law in somebodies face. If I were the OP, I'd tell "Joe" to get the hell away from me any time he came near.

NJGunOwner81
July 3, 2010, 09:36 PM
I gotta tell you that I too would be annoyed with the old man. I understand that some people are busy bodies and chatty but when I go to the range I go there to shoot!

I mean no offense to anyone here but that is why I chose to join a range and not a gun club. I don't want to hang out with the "Good 'Ol Boys" and B.S., or go to meetings, or have to have my membership voted on by board members ... I just want to shoot!

I go to the range to shoot, have a good time, and blow off accumulated steam from the day and unless I'm doing something unsafe or REALLY wrong just leave me be!

I'm sorry if that sounds anti-social but that's just me ... honestly, I wish I lived out in the middle of nowhere so I could just step off my back porch and fire at some tin cans on a post.

"Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong!

Take Care and Be Safe!!!

Frank
NJGunOwner81

parsimonious_instead
July 3, 2010, 09:55 PM
@NJ:

>I gotta tell you that I too would be annoyed with the old man. I understand >that some people are busy bodies and chatty but when I go to the range I go >there to shoot!

I was annoyed with him, too. Earlier in the day, before "Jim" showed up, "Joe" inquired about my Rossi lever-action ("what cartridge does it shoot?) because he was trying to play "enforcer" with the noise rules. (Range is surprisingly close to hyper-affluent liberal suburb of NYC, therefore a rule against shooting most centerfire rifles)
However, I fended him off by assertively stating that it was a pistol cartridge and perfectly acceptable for that venue. I didn't go "ape crazy" on the guy like the other fellow did, and in fact he let me shoot his guns and gave me some info about cheap .38 spl ammo he buys online.

>I mean no offense to anyone here but that is why I chose to join a range and >not a gun club

For better or worse, this range is a mix of both, which I personally kind of like.
Shooters on the line are pretty serious, although people do admire, discuss, and even shoot each other's hardware.
There's a small range office that's physically detached from the covered shooting lanes, and that's where the bulk of the hanging out and schmoozing takes place.
We generally act as our own RSOs, and as far as I know, things have been pretty safe there for the last few decades. (I've been a member for about 1.5 yrs or so).

parsimonious_instead
July 3, 2010, 10:01 PM
Kodiak, Punisher:

The one thing I have to give "Joe" some credit for is that I could tell from his tone that he was trying to be a bit helpful.
In fairness, NYS has so many stupid laws and restrictions that most of you good folks on THR never have to deal with. It's really not that hard to violate some stupid law and have your pistol permit revoked or worse...
And this is a range where cops from NYC and all over Westchester come to shoot.
There's definitely "detente" between police and civilians there, but I'm sure there's the occasional anal-retentive badge who might get a bug up his butt about a shared pistol, a hi-cap magazine, etc, or something else that's not in textbook accordance with the law.
We shooters in NYS do have to look out for each other, ya know...

HOWARD J
July 3, 2010, 10:17 PM
I started all my kids about 7 years old--shooting at the state range.
The DNR guy" can't let a little kid shoot a gun"---finally let us shoot at the far end of the range.
We saw him struggling to move some equipment & we ran over to help.
After that he was always happy to see us at the range........................:)

PS: Some people just can't help it---they have to show just how damn smart they are---they always end up POing the other guy---such is life......................

W.E.G.
July 3, 2010, 10:29 PM
Its too bad for the kid that the adult supervising the kid lost his temper.

It doesn't hurt my feelings a bit that some know-it-all busy-body got reamed.
I hope it keeps happening to him until he gets the message.

parsimonious_instead
July 3, 2010, 10:38 PM
W.E.G. - to clarify, the daughter was actually on the older side (over 21), but it's still unfortunate that she had to witness the blowout.
The busybody deserved to be assertively turned away or ignored, not have disgusting profanities hurled in his face.
Luckily, conduct like that seems to be the absolute exception at this particular range, not the rule.

NMGonzo
July 3, 2010, 10:50 PM
Mind your own business as a rule for me.

easyg
July 3, 2010, 11:06 PM
I think Joe needs to mind his own business.

Edited to add: and I don't care how old Joe is.
I agree 100%.

If Joe wants to enforce gun laws then he should join the BATF.
Otherwise, he should just mind his own business.


I also don't give respect based upon age alone.
I've met too many elderly idiots and too many elderly jerks.

Hatterasguy
July 3, 2010, 11:12 PM
This is why I pay to shoot at essentially a private range, so I don't have to deal with crap like this.

All I can say is I don't care, shoot at a place where you don't have to deal with busy body's and people with big egos.

Frankly its not anyones business what anyone else is shooting as long as they are safe and within the range rules. Unless they are part of the BATF. I would have simply told this "Joe" guy to mind his own business or produce a BATF/LEO badge.

gearhead
July 3, 2010, 11:40 PM
"I was raised to not judge merit to someone based on their age"

It's not about merit, it's about manners. I guess we were raised differently.

John
I was raised in the Deep South with all the attendant customs and politeness. Now that I have some silver in my own hair I HATE when someone acts deferential of me because I'm on the north side of 50. Respect given to someone purely because he or she was fortunate enough to live a long life is meaningless, any respect must be earned.

Nushif
July 4, 2010, 12:09 AM
Wouldn't it be ... south of 50 .... Hehe ... get it?

jcwit
July 4, 2010, 12:16 AM
If in fact "Jim" is a Certified NRA Instructor he should also realize that he MUST follow the SOP"s of any range he happenes to be at. Jim was in the wrong from the beginning, whether he is Certified or not.

I know "Certified" auto mechanics who would be challenged to to do an oil change.

jcwit
July 4, 2010, 12:24 AM
I also don't give respect based upon age alone.
I've met too many elderly idiots and too many elderly jerks.

I've also met many, many youthful idiots and way to many youthful jerks.

In the beginning Joe was only attempting to keep the accepted range safety rules in force. Mayhap he should have said nothing while Jim played with his firearm with others downrange.

That could've turned out good! Right?

jcwit
July 4, 2010, 12:29 AM
One last thought, Jims great choice of words in front of his daughter, no matter what her age is, says a whole lot about his charactor. Real good example of todays parenting.

481
July 4, 2010, 12:43 AM
Mind your own business as a rule for me.

Agreed.

Seems like this little piece of ettiquette is less and less frequently employed.

Unless something really egregious is happening, I leave people to their pursuits and expect the same from them.

As some have said above, when I go to a range to shoot, I am there to shoot, not to answer personal questions about myself and/or any guest that I may have with me, what I have or am shooting. Folks can and have been robbed and/or assaulted for what they have and the less I broadcast about what I have the better off I am.

Of course, we should always act when unsafe practices are displayed and doing so diplomatically is a skill worth its weight in good nature, but outside of that when one has a limited time/opportunity to get a little shooting in nothing is more annoying than someone looking for a little company.

Justin Holder
July 4, 2010, 12:57 AM
There are too many people that think they know better than everyone else, and they never miss an opportunity to point that out.

Let me worry about me.

easyg
July 4, 2010, 01:25 AM
If in fact "Jim" is a Certified NRA Instructor he should also realize that he MUST follow the SOP"s of any range he happenes to be at. Jim was in the wrong from the beginning, whether he is Certified or not.
Maybe so....but why did Joe even go over and inquire about the kids age?

He had an agenda.
He sounds like nothing more than a cop wannabe.

I can't stand self appointed "hallway monitors".

MinnMooney
July 4, 2010, 01:30 AM
I think that the O.P. was correct in his assessment of the two.

There are "Joe"s at every range who insist on bestowing their knowledge to everyone else at the range.
I have a couple of "Joe"s at the Minnesota Rifle Club. One came over almost immediately when a .223 round got stuck in my son's new RR Arms AR-15. We couldn't get the bolt opened at first so Joe pulled out his leatherman and almost forced his way between my son & me so he could jam his tool into the boltface and pry it open! I had to literally grab him and yell for him to stop. It got the attention of several other shooters. He finally gave up w/o marring my son's new rifle and we opened the bolt with no tools.

Unless a shooter is being dangerous, the others at the range should butt out unless they are asked for an opinion. Maybe Jim over reacted maybe not. You'd have to had been right there for both sides of the escalation to judge.

jcwit
July 4, 2010, 01:30 AM
Let me worry about me.

Not if you're doing unsafe acts at the firing line with other shooters at the line or down range.

Of course, we should always act when unsafe practices are displayed and doing so diplomatically is a skill worth its weight in good nature,

Its clearly obvious "Jim" was acting far from diplomatically with his remark "OK I GOT IT. As I stated the ranges SOP, Standard Operating Procedures, is what Jim should have
been abiding by, which he wasn't. For being a Certified NRA Instructor he needs to bone up on the NRA rules, and safety rules.

For those that do not understand this, all I can say is take a course from the NRA, you might learn something.

fluffy
July 4, 2010, 01:42 AM
another good reason not to live in new york.:cuss:

jcwit
July 4, 2010, 01:50 AM
Very good observation there fluffy.

Snowdog
July 4, 2010, 02:56 AM
Mind your own business as a rule for me.

Unless I foresee an injury likely to happen, I also follow this rule.
Most folks know what they're doing and some of those who don't learn best from their own mistake. If it's obvious someone needs help, of course I'll help. Otherwise, as long as no one gets hurt, let the cards fall where they may.

parsimonious_instead
July 4, 2010, 08:12 AM
Gearhead: I'm pretty much in your camp on this one... however, I think there's a difference between being overly deferential because of someone's age, and realizing that's there's something kinda wrong about disproportionately responding to an elderly busybody. I just think "Jim" could have used the "soft power" of saying "please MYOB" instead of unleashing a truly unsettling and disgusting tirade. The fact that it was directed at an 81 year old man made it even worse to me.
It's like when I see people car-horn bullying a timid elderly driver on the road or in a parking lot. Do these selfish jerks really think that beeping will magically make these people regain their eyesight and confidence on the road? Not to mention that it might startle them into doing something unsafe just to make the honking stop?

Snowdog:

What's interesting is that "Joe" bothered me about the caliber I was shooting (not really a good reason to bother me, since the RSO over at the 'clubhouse' can easily hear if someone's shooting
a gun with too much punch and intervene),
reminded "Jim" about the 'step away from the line' rule (legitimate reminder of an important safety rule)
reminded "Joe" about the supposed finer points of NYS law (busybody mode)

I agree that ranges are at their best when everybody MYOB unless it's saying "hello" or pointing out a safety issue.
This place really is like that, except we had the worst combination possible - a hothead and a busybody.

Fremmer
July 4, 2010, 01:54 PM
I think there's a difference between being overly deferential because of someone's age, and realizing that's there's something kinda wrong about disproportionately responding to an elderly busybody. I just think "Jim" could have used the "soft power" of saying "please MYOB" instead of unleashing a truly unsettling and disgusting tirade. The fact that it was directed at an 81 year old man made it even worse to me.

Disproportionate? Because a busybody is older? I don't care how old, young, rich, poor, smart, or dumb he is, he needs to mind his own business. Period. Tell me, why couldn't Joe just let Jim and his daughter have a good time? Soft power? A busybody like Joe won't mind his own business unless he's told to mind his own business, and guys like that very often won't stop pushing and squawking and poking unless they are forcefully told to mind thier own business.

How about this: I'll bet that Joe doesn't mess with Jim again. Because Joe now knows that Jim won't tolerate a busybody. That's what it takes for some guys like Joe: they won't stop meddling until somebody gives them a clear (and loud) message to mind their own business. Some guys like Joe seem to require that, and a "soft" message isn't enough. JMHO.

jcwit
July 4, 2010, 02:31 PM
I'm sorry but someone acting like Jim did in the beginning in an unsafe manner, then using language in mixed company would be reported and no longer welcome at the range I frequent. Furthermore more than likely if he was a member his swipe card would no longer open the gate. Maybe Joe did come on a little strong but safety is of prime importance, and if Jim doesn't like it he more then welcome to leave and take his toilet mouth with him. Jim may be a Certified whatever but he is far from a class act and I hope not the ordinary NRA Instructor.

I should hope that Joe continues his quest for safety.

I shall now let you youngsters argue in Jims favor.

Spencer_OKC
July 4, 2010, 02:54 PM
Sounds like a collision of two a**holes.

Joe needs to mind his own business unless he is addressing a safety concern,

and

Jim needs to learn how to control his temper.


It is much easier to deal with someone like Joe by just nodding your head while smiling and walking away. "Thank you for the information, and if I need any more information I'll be sure to ask you for it."

toivo
July 4, 2010, 03:29 PM
FWIW, I'm pretty sure Joe is right in regards to New York State law. The NRA card means nothing: if the guy's daughter doesn't have her pistol permit, she can't touch his or anybody else's handguns.

That doesn't mean that Joe isn't a busybody, but there's also the fact that a lot of suburban communities are hostile to gun ranges and in many cases are trying to get them shut down. This makes range owners and clubs understandably nervous about legally questionable activity. It sucks, but it's reality.

Cosmoline
July 4, 2010, 04:08 PM
Unless it's an actual safety violation, folks really need to mind their own business. There's really no room for this kind of nonsense on a live firing line. It's distracting to those involved and obviously distracted the OP enough to prompt a thread about it. That alone is reason enough not to do this sort of thing at the range.

I should hope that Joe continues his quest for safety.

Violating an absurd provision of an idiotic state law isn't a safety violation. If Joe thinks it should be brought up, he should do so OFF the line, where nobody is concentrating on shooting.

Gouranga
July 4, 2010, 04:19 PM
I guess it depends a lot on the range you go to. At the one I frequent, you pay by the half hour. It is all electronic, so there are rarely hold fires called on the range. We have a full time RSO who deals with any safety issues. Someone stopping me to chat with me is costing me me $$. If you want to chat after I pay, or before the clock starts, that is fine, otherwise time is money.

IMO, it is one thing if the older fellow is addressing a safety concern that could be endangering the shooter or someone else on the range. It is something completely different to try to pretend you are the police and haggle someone on the letter of the law. I was brought up to respect elders and they always start such a discussion with a full measure of that respect, however, someone getting in my business like Joe was with this guy, would quickly begin to erode that full measure of respect.

It would also matter how often Jim had been there, how often Joe bugged him, etc. Jim may have just been having a REAL long day, gets to the range to unwind and then has Joe in his face.

jcwit
July 4, 2010, 04:27 PM
Violating an absurd provision of an idiotic state law isn't a safety violation. If Joe thinks it should be brought up, he should do so OFF the line, where nobody is concentrating on shooting.

This was what I was referring to as a safety violation.

Note that we have a rule here that I'm sure a lot of ranges have, as well - when people go out and change/setup/break down targets, everyone steps back from the firing line and no weapons are handled.

"Jim" seemed like a perfectly fine fellow at first. When I greeted him during target setup, we talked about the guns we brought with us. Everything seemed OK with the guy, although he answered my questions with a slightly unusual degree of zeal.

Once our targets were set, we took up our guns and shot them. During another break, I heard "Jim" say something like, "OKAY! I Got IT!" when "Joe" most likely reminded him about the "step away" rule.


Does it make it a little clearer now?

Justin Holder
July 4, 2010, 04:29 PM
State of residence aside, if someone walked up to me and started telling me what I can and can't teach my own daughter, I'd get a little annoyed as well.


I think the fact it was Jim's daughter that Joe had the problem with is what set Jim off.

You just don't mess with some peoples kids.

coloradokevin
July 4, 2010, 04:30 PM
Just one of a gazillion friction points in the world of man in action. Discuss for fun but hope it simmers down and can be remembered as random noise.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

As I read the OP's story, I was quicky reminded of some similar human-on-human conflicts I've observed at the local dog park. In the vast majority of these dog park incidents I've minded my own business, and chocked the situation up to someone else's fight. Occasionally I've stepped in for the underdog, such as an instance that happened where a female friend of mine was being threatened by an aggressive and overzealous male at the park, or when I saw a nasty old lady attempting to "officially" kick a nice family out of the park, despite having no authority to do so.

Range incidents often involve the same type of human v. human drama, though the presence of guns at the firing line seem to make these incidents a bit more tense (safety violations, etc). In this case "Joe" should have minded his own business, and "Jim" should have been mature enough to ignore the annoying statements made by Joe.

waldonbuddy
July 4, 2010, 04:43 PM
"That seemed to be the end of it, and during another break I wandered over to the stall "Jim" was using. "Joe" approached, and asked the man about the woman he was shooting with. "Oh, that's my ** yr old daughter"
"Oh, she's not under 21? Good for her, looking so much younger then her age." "Joe" replied. "Well, then, according to NY State law she shouldn't be shooting your guns." Joe added."

If I'm reading this right, Joe asks the age of Jim's daughter. Jim says something to the effect that she is over 21 years old. Then Joe state's she looks younger than her age, then goes on about how the law says Jims daughter shouldn't be allowed to shoot {as if Joe didn't hear the part about her being over 21}.

Now to me it would seem that Joe just called Jim a liar.{I didn't read where the girls age was verified or not}.......which would make me mad as well.

Rshooter
July 4, 2010, 04:46 PM
Unsupervised range, not stepping away from the firing line when people are forward of it. It is everybody's right to keep from getting shot.

Mr.Davis
July 4, 2010, 04:55 PM
I don't think it's my responsibility to enforce unreasonable or unconstitutional gun laws. I don't care what you roll up next to me shooting...I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and leave law enforcement to those who are paid to do so.

Do as you will at the range, as long as you're being safe.

Unchecked profanity is the sign of a small mind, in my opinion, so my impression of Jim follows that belief.

Joe is a unique kind of irritant...the one so mild that any resistance to his interference comes off as rude or reactionary. Obviously Jim was out of line.

I wouldn't want to be around either. Fortunately there's only one busybody at my range, and he's an RSO who actively seeks any opportunity to call somebody out, even when no violation is observed. I just ignore him, mostly.

waldonbuddy
July 4, 2010, 05:06 PM
Joe's are also very prevalent at car shows.

SoberSunday01
July 4, 2010, 06:02 PM
I know that I am young, but I hope I can still contribute to these discussions. Since I became a gun owner, I have become extremely non-confrontational. I will still stand up for what I believe in, but in a calm manner, or else I will walk away and deal with it later. There are disagreements all the time, and I think the man who keeps his head cooler usually ends up with the upper hand. Obviously, if guns are involved, that just ups the ante of the whole situation. I personally would not antagonize anybody at a gun range, in the interest of self-preservation.

winchester '97
July 4, 2010, 06:26 PM
OP is right, both at fault. I always say the proper range courtesy is mind your own business unless they are doing something crazy unsafe, such as muzzle sweeping people, being unsafe while people are changing targets, ect.
Jim needs to chill out, Joe needs to shoot more, talk less.
Also: if the girl is actually over 21, why did Jim flip out? or am i reading it wrong?

parsimonious_instead
July 4, 2010, 07:18 PM
Winchester:

The main issue between Joe and Jim was that Joe noticed Jim's daughter getting a shooting lesson from her father.
The daughter is a pretty woman who at first glance appears to be late teens/early twenties, but is in fact a fair amount older.
Once Joe realized that Jim's daughter was almost certainly over 21, he began his line of inquiry and his recitation of NYS law.
I don't know why my state has this quirk - allowing supervised, permit-free pistol usage by people between 14 and 20 years of age, while those 21+ are not in theory supposed to even touch a handgun unless they have a pistol permit.
It's an incredibly stupid law... I'm sure everyone that goes to that range is aware of it, and I don't think anyone other than Joe or perhaps a super by-the-book cop really cares if a pistol is being shared with someone that lacks a permit.
That was the irritant that triggered Jim's tirade.

I suppose Jim felt that Joe was attacking his daughter (not really, just quoting what he believes is the law), and his NRA credentials (Jim claims that his NRA certifications allow him to
teach anyone pistolcraft, in effect superceding state law... not sure about that one)

Additional detail: the incident described above was the second exchange. The first exchange between them was a completely legitimate reminder to step away from the firing line and put
down all firearms while shooters are out dealing with targets.

Fremmer
July 4, 2010, 07:38 PM
yeah, i understand about saying something about a safety violation. But anything else, people just need to left alone, live and let live so the other guy can have some fun with his guest (who happened to be his daughter).

Justin
July 4, 2010, 07:49 PM
Joe needs a tall glass of ST*U and Jim needs to take a chill pill.

12131
July 4, 2010, 07:55 PM
I think Joe needs to mind his own business.

Edited to add: and I don't care how old Joe is.
Feel the same way.

Chainsaw2
July 4, 2010, 08:46 PM
They closed the range where I used to shoot, so I found another. When I paid my money and was speaking to the cashier, I asked him if there were any special range rules I needed to be aware of. He said no, just the usual, and that they were safety oriented. I said "Good, then basically don't do nuthing stupid". He laughed and said right.

I go to the range and started shooting and after a while they called a halt so folks could go down range. Almost everyone went down range, but I didn't need to, so I opened the bolt to my Mauser stood up and looked around. A guy started talking to me and I responded. Since people were milling around I put my hand on the open received so I'd know if someone was messing with the rifle while my back was turned as I talked. This was the preferred method at my previous range. At the new place, one was supposed to step three feet back and not touch a gun, but I didn't know that. I had asked.

I had my ear plugs in and couldn't hear anyone more than a few feet away. Finally I hear someone yelling and I turn to see ths other shooter that was red-faced screaming and swearing at me. The range master was also looking at me, but was upset at both of us and confused at what to do. I removed an ear plug so I could hear what was going and the guy screamed you blankety-blank get your #$%%^& hand off that gun! Don't you know the *&^%%$# rules!?!?!?!

Remainig calm I stepped away and said sorry, I in fact didn't know the rule against that, and would stay away from the rifle. He continued to scream about getting me kicked off the range and banned from the facility, but I said nothing and just leaned up against the table and relaxed while the range master told him to resume his position. No one else said anything, and I was the last one to my position when the range went hot just so the range master could see that I was trying to cooperate. The guy kept looking aver at me and glaring for another 30 mins as my son told me, but I never looked his way or said anything.

Now, I could have gotten into an argueent for his graceless action and foul mouth, but I was new at the range and don't like negative incidents anyway. The guy finally left, and as I was leaving I asked the range master for a list of the rules. He smiled and handed it over. The only one I hadn't obeyed was the hands off rule when all were down range. I know better now, and I've never seen the guy there again. Everyone there seem to be a great bunch of guys and there have been no problems fitting in. If I'd have reacted in a negative manner, then that might not have been the case.

jim

Buck Snort
July 4, 2010, 09:06 PM
I think Joe needs to mind his own business.

Edited to add: and I don't care how old Joe is.
I'm a bit of an old fart myself and I've learned,over the years, that few people appreciate anybody of ANY age just walk'n up and stick'n his/her nose into his/her business.

easyg
July 4, 2010, 09:16 PM
This was what I was referring to as a safety violation.

Note that we have a rule here that I'm sure a lot of ranges have, as well - when people go out and change/setup/break down targets, everyone steps back from the firing line and no weapons are handled.

"Jim" seemed like a perfectly fine fellow at first. When I greeted him during target setup, we talked about the guns we brought with us. Everything seemed OK with the guy, although he answered my questions with a slightly unusual degree of zeal.

Once our targets were set, we took up our guns and shot them. During another break, I heard "Jim" say something like, "OKAY! I Got IT!" when "Joe" most likely reminded him about the "step away" rule.
Does it make it a little clearer now?
From this quote alone we really don't know exactly what Joe was saying to Jim when Jim said "OKAY! I Got IT!"

As far as we know, there had been no safety violations at all.
Just some old man sticking his nose where is doesn't belong.

jcwit
July 4, 2010, 09:21 PM
Well that is your opinion!

It sounds like this is an unsupervised range, which usually means anyone seeing unsafe acts becomes a RO.

Even the Mod here sees that Jim needed to cool down.

Lets just let Jim go on about his business and continue to fool around with his weapons during a cold range period and someone gets shot or hurt, range shut down, Jims charged with whatever, sounds like a cool way to handle things. Ya right!!!

Looks like very few here never shot at an NRA controled range.

Snowdog
July 4, 2010, 09:31 PM
I removed an ear plug so I could hear what was going and the guy screamed you blankety-blank get your #$%%^& hand off that gun! Don't you know the *&^%%$# rules!?!?!?!


I confess that I do tend to lose respect from the get-go for folks who feel it absolutely essential to use profanity to get their point across.
Why some folk want to sound like they've just sucked a sewer pipe is beyond me.

easyg
July 4, 2010, 09:41 PM
Lets just let Jim go on about his business and continue to fool around with his weapons during a cold range period and someone gets shot or hurt, range shut down, Jims charged with whatever, sounds like a cool way to handle things. Ya right!!!
Nowhere in this thread did the original poster ever state that he witnessed "Jim" do anything that was a safety violation.
He never said that "Jim" was "fooling around with his weapons during a cold range period.

Don't read more in to the thread than what was actually typed.

waldonbuddy
July 4, 2010, 09:47 PM
How did Joe know that Jim's daughter didn't have her permit?

I mean that one can have a permit, but still take lessons to improve their skills.

jcwit
July 4, 2010, 09:49 PM
Nowhere in this thread did the original poster ever state that he witnessed "Jim" do anything that was a safety violation.
He never said that "Jim" was "fooling around with his weapons during a cold range period.

Don't read more in to the thread than what was actually typed.

Soo Jim is yelling, OK, I GET IT, just to hear himself yell.

"Joe" most likely reminded him about the "step away" rule.


The step away rule is to keep folks from "fooling around". Didn't read anything into it.

Gottahaveone
July 4, 2010, 10:08 PM
However, I fended him off by assertively stating that it was a pistol cartridge and perfectly acceptable for that venue. I didn't go "ape crazy" on the guy like the other fellow did, and in fact he let me shoot his guns and gave me some info about cheap .38 spl ammo he buys online.
So, did "Joe" ask to see your permit before letting you shoot his guns?

How did Joe know that Jim's daughter didn't have her permit?
I mean that one can have a permit, but still take lessons to improve their skills.


Exactly what I was thinking. I wouldn't have cussed the old man out, but I'd have darned sure told him that it was time for him to be moving on and worry about himself and let me worry about myself and daughter.....

Casaba
July 4, 2010, 10:53 PM
Lots of assumptions here...

Always love it when folks decide to add facts to what the OP posts. Two guys both wrong, that's about it

Jaybird78
July 4, 2010, 10:59 PM
I am a firm believer of minding ones own business. I personally have had only TWO bad experiences at my private club.

In one I remained calm and bit my lip. I was in the right.

On the other I told the guy to go &%*# himself. I was in the right. He was rude and trying to pull the age card. What can I say, I was young (at the time) and full of piss and vinegar.

Best to get along with everyone. If things get real heated, best just to leave.

Doggy Daddy
July 5, 2010, 12:06 AM
"Joe" has quite an effective interrogation technique, doesn't he?

1) Engage mark in casual conversation.
2) Jump on all possible violations mentioned during the "casual conversation".

Makes me think of the advice to not talk to "Officer Friendly" during a traffic stop. :scrutiny:

DD

Mike P.
July 5, 2010, 08:32 PM
Joe needs to mind his own business.

easyg
July 5, 2010, 09:01 PM
Soo Jim is yelling, OK, I GET IT, just to hear himself yell.

Quote:
"Joe" most likely reminded him about the "step away" rule.
The step away rule is to keep folks from "fooling around". Didn't read anything into it.
Think about what you read.

The original poster states that he heard Jim say "OK, I GET IT".
The original poster ASSUMES that Joe is merely reminding Jim of the "step away" rule.
But the original poster does not really know what Joe was saying to Jim.
The original poster never said that he ever saw Jim "fooling around" with his weapon while the range was cold.

Joe sounds like he is just an old busy-body trying to get in to everyone business and be a self appointed range officer.
Shooting is better off without folks like that.

jcwit
July 5, 2010, 09:13 PM
The ranges "and thats not singular" that I go to always has someone as the self appointed RO because none of them have a RO on duty. Its everyones place to see that safety rules are obeyed, whether they are old, young or anywhere in the middle, if this construes them to be a busy-body then so be it. If a class act like Jim doesn't like it he knows where the gate is and at lest hope it doesn't hit him to hard on the way out.

easyg
July 5, 2010, 10:12 PM
Its everyones place to see that safety rules are obeyed, whether they are old, young or anywhere in the middle, if this construes them to be a busy-body then so be it.
I understand what you're saying.
But in this particular incidence there's no evidence whatsoever that any safety rules had been broken.

Nothing said by the original poster indicates that Jim made any safety violations, nor did Jim's daughter.

Joe was trying to play the role of a BATF agent and hassling Jim about an age specific state law that has nothing to do with firearms safety.

Hey, if I see an unsafe act at a range, you can bet your bottom dollar that I'm going to say something or take action.
But I'm not going to go over and play detective trying to find out the ages of everyone shooting and whether or not they have the proper permits to shoot.
That kind of stuff has nothing to do with range safety.

jcwit
July 5, 2010, 11:00 PM
If one should go back and read all my posts regarding this I only opined of two items. Jim going off the wall regarding stepping back, its obovious Jim started out with a burr under his saddle with his shouting OK I Got It. The other item that stuck in my craw was offensive language in mixed company. Again its obvious Jim has a problem expressing himself without reverting to gutter talk. Course I find this to generally the case with alot of younger folks, not all, but an awful lot of them.

As I said before, Jim seems to be a real class act. Mayhaps been listing to too much rap.

opie4386
July 6, 2010, 12:46 AM
ANY problem should be handeld by a range officer and if not applicable just switch lanes. Im sure if you ask the guy to youre right to switch because the guy to youre left is uncomfortable with you shooting, something should be worked out.

nathan
July 6, 2010, 03:10 AM
I sure would get irritated if someone gets too nosey on what i do at the range.

nathan
July 6, 2010, 03:14 AM
At the range, i usually see the person next to me right and left during ceasefire, making sure no one gets hold of their firearms. Even if theres range masters, they cant see everything. Its for my safety and for everyone. I ve caught several violators , old and young alike. Never know the level of safety consciousness and practice of every shooter at the range. Some are very naive and outright unsafe, stupid and reckless.

Dannix
July 6, 2010, 06:05 AM
If I had a lady out on the range with me and some bloke of any age comes up and asks her age, I guarantee you I'll be reminding him to mind his own business. Maybe I'm overly protective?

jcwit
July 6, 2010, 10:11 AM
If I had a lady out on the range with me and some bloke of any age comes up and asks her age, I guarantee you I'll be reminding him to mind his own business. Maybe I'm overly protective?

But then its OK to use foul language.

easyg
July 6, 2010, 11:24 AM
But then its OK to use fowl language.

From the original post it would seem that Jim didn't use foul language (not fowl) until after Joe continued to push the age/permit law notion....which was NOT a range safety issue at all.

Had Joe minded his own business and not bothered Jim, there would have likely been no foul language at all.

jcwit
July 6, 2010, 11:45 AM
No excuse in mixed company, just shows an inability to communate correctly and in an educated manner.

Thanks for pointing out the 1 letter spelling error. I'll correct it.

easyg
July 6, 2010, 12:34 PM
No excuse in mixed company, just shows an inability to communate correctly and in an educated manner.

That's entirely a matter of opinion.
Using foul language is NOT an indicator of intelligence or a lack thereof...
I work in a hospital and I happen to know many very well educated and very articulate folks who still curse on occasion....and not just the men.

Even the term "mixed company" is way outdated when it comes to expressive vulgarity.
The "ladies" of this day and age speak as rough as the men from what I've heard.
You might not like it, and you might not endorse it, and you might not approve of it, but it is the truth nonetheless.


And again, if Joe had minded his own business then the whole situation would have never happened.


BTW....
"jcwit" doesn't stand for "Joe c wit" does it?
LOL!

jcwit
July 6, 2010, 01:16 PM
BTW....
"jcwit" doesn't stand for "Joe c wit" does it?


Not hardly! Don't you wish!! Is this a tongue in cheek attack?

That's entirely a matter of opinion.
Using foul language is NOT an indicator of intelligence or a lack thereof...
I work in a hospital and I happen to know many very well educated and very articulate folks who still curse on occasion....and not just the men.

Even the term "mixed company" is way outdated when it comes to expressive vulgarity.
The "ladies" of this day and age speak as rough as the men from what I've heard.
You might not like it, and you might not endorse it, and you might not approve of it, but it is the truth nonetheless.


Like you say that is your opinion. How ever the use of vulgar language language is just another indication of how our socity is degrading, and that Sir Is The Truth.

easyg
July 6, 2010, 02:00 PM
Not hardly! Don't you wish!! Is this a tongue in cheek attack?
No attack. Just a friendly jest.

How ever the use of vulgar language language is just another indication of how our socity is degrading, and that Sir Is The Truth.
I don't necessarily subscribe to the notion that our society is degrading based upon the language used by the average guy on the street.
According to much of the world, the United States has never been very eloquent in its use of language.

Fremmer
July 6, 2010, 02:46 PM
This thread is starting the resemble the incident itself.....:D

jcwit
July 6, 2010, 03:06 PM
Well put Fremmer, I think it a time to agree to disagree. This would be the High Road.

easyg
July 6, 2010, 04:25 PM
Agreed.

jcwit
July 6, 2010, 05:32 PM
Well, thats an opinion.

Tully M. Pick
July 6, 2010, 05:37 PM
Jim sounds like he needs some anger-management therapy, and Joe sounds like he needs a boot to his rear. Figuratively, of course. I've dealt with his like before by asking them a line of questions, starting with "Who are you? Do you work for the range? Are you a cop?" and taking it from there. If he's just a busy-body with a bad attitude, you can ignore him, tell him to get lost, whatever. No need to get worked up.

I struck up a friendship with an older gent one time, though, when he told me he didn't want my buddy to shoot him in the ass when he went to change out a target and then proceeded to tell my friend to aim directly at him when he went downrange because that would be the safest place to be standing according to what he'd seen. He's a pretty gruff and abrasive guy, but he's a gruff and abrasive guy who's good people and would give me the shirt off his back if I needed it. I'm glad I didn't judge that book by its cover.

Dannix
July 6, 2010, 07:02 PM
If I had a lady out on the range with me and some bloke of any age comes up and asks her age, I guarantee you I'll be reminding him to mind his own business. Maybe I'm overly protective? But then its OK to use foul language.
Did you think that that was what I was implying? With all due respect, that seems like a cheap shot. I was more referring to a polite, but utterly firm statement. For the record, I personally don't use 'foul' language, mixed company or otherwise, but that's not a standard I would necessarily expect others to hold to.

My take: they both acted like punks. I have little respect for Jim's action though -- to say he could have handled Joe "the-noisy-busybody" better is an understatement. Considering this is the city where every shares their mind about everything, Jim must be blowing up all the time. :D

Concerning language, treatment of elders, treatment of the young, courtesy to your fellow man, et al -- I would submit to you that these are symptoms of an issue, not the issue itself.

jcwit
July 6, 2010, 07:42 PM
Whatever!

Dannix
July 6, 2010, 09:10 PM
OK. Well best regards just the same. :)

DustyVermonter
July 7, 2010, 11:36 PM
I probably would not have gone into a full fledged furious tangent, but I definitely would have told him that he needs to keep his nose on his face and mind his business. I really can't stand people like that, some people need to learn their boundaries. I would have been pretty agitated I must admit, maybe the old man will think twice about approaching people with nonsense like that. If somebody was speeding in the car in front of you would you follow them to their destination and come up to them like some safety ambassador and tell them they need to keep the speed down? No, unless you're a complete jackass that doesn't know how to mind your own business. This thread is kind of irritating as I too seem to keep running into these jackass's, if I'm not hurting anybody and minding my own business ill do whatever I feel like doing, you only live once and if you're not bothering someone else or causing any harm you may as well do as u please.

DustyVermonter
July 8, 2010, 12:09 AM
I myself, will avoid confrontation at all costs, and around here where I'm from, its a mutual understanding that not minding your own business is a good way to get yourself poked right in the nose. In my opinion Joe was askin for trouble. Although, its another thing if somebody makes you feel unsafe. If the girl was showing a complete disregard for others safety and was ignorant regarding basic fundementals of gun safety and sweeping people with the gun then I would be first in line to say something and then maybe the question of her age and whether or not she's supposed to be handling the pistol would be brought into the light of things. But just to go citing laws and restrictions like he is some higher authority.....I would have gone and asked him to turn on his car to check to make sure his brake lights were in good working order,exhaust was up to code and so on. Whether the guy blew up and started swearing isn't really the point, the point is he got "his" point across and maybe ol' joe the annoying busybody may have taken something away from this whole ordeal......STAY OUT OF OTHER PEOPLE'S BUSINESS!!!!

JIM BOB
July 8, 2010, 12:24 AM
A range is a place to chill out and relax.Everybody there has their own space/zone.Unless it's a safety issue stay out of my relaxed,chilled out space.

Pat M
July 8, 2010, 12:50 AM
For what it's worth, in New York state: "Persons between age 18 and
21 may possess a handgun at an indoor or outdoor pistol
range located in or on premises owned or occupied by a
duly incorporated organization organized for conservation
purposes or to foster proficiency in small arms. A person
between the ages of 18 and 21 may also possess a handgun
at a target pistol shooting competition under the auspices
of or approved by the NRA and while under immediate
supervision." Aside from that, you can't handle a handgun in NY without a license. Joe should mind his own business unless safety was being compromised, and Jim should chill and enjoy his day at the range :-) I was shooting my Dad's pistols at a public range when I was 13 and no one seemed to mind, but that was almost 30 years ago.

jkmurry
July 8, 2010, 12:57 AM
People like "Joe" are the reason y'all up in NY have all those stupid laws. If "Joe" understood the law, then he would understand that the supreme law of the land, the Constitution, prohibits the stupid laws he is so dilligently upholding. "Joe" needs to mind his own business and be told in no uncertain terms to do so. Perhaps he can redirect his energies to studying history and an understanding of this nation's founding.

Jim on the other hand has issues. An NRA card does not mean that you can do whatever you want to do. Generally speaking the one who resorts to abusive speech really has no intelligent argument to make. Making your point in a firm but polite manner shows intelligence and strength. Flying off the handle for minor annoyances shows limited intelligence and puts up a bluff trying to create the impression of strength.

There was nobody on the right side of this argument. It appears more that they are just a couple of loons acting like, well, loons.

thorazine
July 8, 2010, 01:24 AM
But "Jim" needs to chill out a bit, and see a talkative old man for who he is, and simply "yes" him until he goes away.

I was brought up to respect one's elders, you DO NOT yell and curse at an old man unless they've put hands on you or your property, or started in with a verbal tirade.

Screw respect...

A lot of the ranges around here charge by the hour.


Old timers that want to chit chat with me better be ready to pay my range fees.


Some of us are there to shoot not turn it in to a social club.





Mind your own business and shoot or take up a social activity which doesn't involve loud bangs.

Rotnguns
July 8, 2010, 01:56 AM
They closed the range where I used to shoot, so I found another. When I paid my money and was speaking to the cashier, I asked him if there were any special range rules I needed to be aware of. He said no, just the usual, and that they were safety oriented. I said "Good, then basically don't do nuthing stupid". He laughed and said right.

I go to the range and started shooting and after a while they called a halt so folks could go down range. Almost everyone went down range, but I didn't need to, so I opened the bolt to my Mauser stood up and looked around. A guy started talking to me and I responded. Since people were milling around I put my hand on the open received so I'd know if someone was messing with the rifle while my back was turned as I talked. This was the preferred method at my previous range. At the new place, one was supposed to step three feet back and not touch a gun, but I didn't know that. I had asked.

I had my ear plugs in and couldn't hear anyone more than a few feet away. Finally I hear someone yelling and I turn to see ths other shooter that was red-faced screaming and swearing at me. The range master was also looking at me, but was upset at both of us and confused at what to do. I removed an ear plug so I could hear what was going and the guy screamed you blankety-blank get your #$%%^& hand off that gun! Don't you know the *&^%%$# rules!?!?!?!

Remainig calm I stepped away and said sorry, I in fact didn't know the rule against that, and would stay away from the rifle. He continued to scream about getting me kicked off the range and banned from the facility, but I said nothing and just leaned up against the table and relaxed while the range master told him to resume his position. No one else said anything, and I was the last one to my position when the range went hot just so the range master could see that I was trying to cooperate. The guy kept looking aver at me and glaring for another 30 mins as my son told me, but I never looked his way or said anything.

Now, I could have gotten into an argueent for his graceless action and foul mouth, but I was new at the range and don't like negative incidents anyway. The guy finally left, and as I was leaving I asked the range master for a list of the rules. He smiled and handed it over. The only one I hadn't obeyed was the hands off rule when all were down range. I know better now, and I've never seen the guy there again. Everyone there seem to be a great bunch of guys and there have been no problems fitting in. If I'd have reacted in a negative manner, then that might not have been the case.

jim
Chainsaw, good job for staying cool and not escalating the situation. That being said...not touching guns on the line when people are downrange is a very, very good idea, and it's a rule at just about every range I've been at. It's especially important when there are no range officers (we have no such people in Idaho).

toivo
July 8, 2010, 02:49 AM
For what it's worth, in New York state: "Persons between age 18 and 21 may possess a handgun at an indoor or outdoor pistol range located in or on premises owned or occupied by a duly incorporated organization organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in small arms. A person between the ages of 18 and 21 may also possess a handgun at a target pistol shooting competition under the auspices of or approved by the NRA and while under immediate supervision."

That's right, but the point of the OP was that the girl was actually over 21. Over 21 and no permit = can't shoot a handgun no matter what.

It's an incredibly stupid law, probably the stupidest of the whole raft of stupid handgun laws in this state. You can start training at 18 but you have to stop at 21 for as long as it takes until your permit can be processed (which can be as much as a year)? How is that supposed to be a good thing? :banghead:

easyg
July 8, 2010, 10:31 AM
Screw respect...

A lot of the ranges around here charge by the hour.

Old timers that want to chit chat with me better be ready to pay my range fees.
Excellent point!

I wonder how much money in range time old "Joe" has cost other shooters while he was playing BATF agent wannabe.

jcwit
July 8, 2010, 02:00 PM
Quote:
Screw respect...

A lot of the ranges around here charge by the hour.

Old timers that want to chit chat with me better be ready to pay my range fees.

Excellent point!

I wonder how much money in range time old "Joe" has cost other shooters while he was playing BATF agent wannabe.

Yup! Thats the High Road!

parsimonious_instead
July 8, 2010, 03:34 PM
In spite of what I witnessed, it's still a relaxed, comfortable and friendly place to shoot.
It IS the sort of place where people generally MYOB...
No one's time was wasted during any "Joe" interactions - he chose his moments to bring up NYS gun laws during ceasefires.
Additionally, there's no hourly fee there. Just $125/year, come as often as you want.
The place is never, as far as I can tell, filled to capacity.

parsimonious_instead
July 8, 2010, 03:37 PM
toivo:

>It's an incredibly stupid law, probably the stupidest of the whole raft of stupid handgun >laws in this state. You can start training at 18 but you have to stop at 21 for as long >as it takes until your permit can be processed (which can be as much as a year)? How >is that supposed to be a good thing?

I certainly agree that it's about as dumb a law as you can get. I don't think, anyone really cares about it, absent of a safety violation, except for Joe, and perhaps a REALLY by-the-book police officer.

FYI, though - the permit processing is speeding up quite a bit.
Mine came through in seven weeks, which is apparently becoming quite typical,
rather than six+ months.

Dookie
July 8, 2010, 05:39 PM
Three feet of personal space. If I don't know you then keep your distance. If I am doing something unsafe then I am fine with being bugged.

People like Joe I don't like. Go away and leave me alone. If you want to talk fine, not while I am in the middle of something. Don't quote laws unless you can back them up.

People like Jim I don't like. If he has a daughter that is over 20, and as the OP stated, well over 20, which could mean close to thirty, then Jim is probably mid 40's possibly pushing 50. Sorry to break it to you all, THAT IS NOT YOUNG anymore. You are old enough to keep your cool and not scream.

I don't care how old you are, if you want respect you earn it. I don't expect to just be given respect, why should you based on age.

Pat M
July 8, 2010, 08:08 PM
Toivo is correct! We certainly do have nutty laws in NY state. According to my co-worker NRA instructor, if she is over 21, she can only shoot with her NRA instructor dad if she has a pistol license, or a submitted application pending approval. Several years ago, when I took the NRA basic pistol class, I was the only student out of 6 who had a license. That is no longer permissible. Geez, now that the Supreme Court has ruled that we have the right to keep a handgun in the home for self-defense, I hope my unlicensed wife does not use one of mine to defend my family from an armed intruder.

DustyVermonter
July 9, 2010, 01:44 AM
I probably would not have started screaming but being respectful definitely wouldn't have been my #1 concern while chatting with Joe, in fact I probably would have just flat out ignored him completely, like he didn't even exsist. Some people are not even worth acknowledging in my opinion. I don't agree with the fact that jim thought his NRA certification was a free pass to do whatever he wanted but I can definitely relate to his frustration, I am not an explosive maniac but I'm sure we have all had days where we would just like to spit fire and somebody coming over to split hairs with you about something so insignificant when you're just trying to blow off some steam at the range because you're having a miserable week, behind on your mortgage, Wife just left you, Etc.... Is just about all someone needs to get pushed over the edge. I'm sure some people can relate. Personally I prefer people just to leave me the hell alone and MTOB. Maybe jim has an explosive personality and screams his head off all the time, or maybe he had a lot on his mind and lost his temper, either way joe should not provoke people, especially at the gun range, never would have happenned if joe knew how to pay attention to the two feet in front of him instead of concerning himself with other people. What ever happenned to individualist's and respecting ones privacy and personal space? I look around at the world today and see more bleating sheep(busybodies) than ever before. I think I missed my generation......yea, joe would have pissed me off

LHRGunslinger
July 12, 2010, 07:24 AM
I've worked in the customer service industry for about 6 years now. The first thing you learn in that industry is EVERYONE is a jerk and/or an idiot. I know that's going to offend some people, but screaming at your computer tech isn't going to solve the problem.

The way it should have gone down is:
"How old is she?"
"(insert age here)"
"You know that according to NY law she shouldn't be shooting"
"I'm an NRA Cert instructor so I have the right to teach anyone of any age how to shoot."
"Oh I didn't know that."
End of story.

EDIT:
The Moral of this story is: Common Sense and Common Curtosey are so rare they're a freaking super power.

easyg
July 12, 2010, 08:01 AM
No, this is the way it should have gone down:

"How old is she?"
"(insert age here)"
"I think it's great that the young lady is interested in firearms and shooting. We need more ladies like her. Happy and safe shooting."
"Thanks. Happy and safe shooting to you too."

End of story.

LHRGunslinger
July 12, 2010, 08:12 AM
touche.

DustyVermonter
July 13, 2010, 12:04 PM
Or how about this RM:Hey joe, if you can't manage to keep to yourself and leave folks be, then I'm sorry, but you won't be able to participate at this range anymore. Our range members prefer to have their privacy and don't want to be hasssled everytime there's the slightest infraction, if we see something we don't like, we will handle it. We like havin ya around joe, but if this continues to be a problem, you're gonna have to find another place to shoot.

RM: Hey jim, if we see another episode like that, you're gonna have to leave the range. We understand your frustration with joe but this is a family place and you got pretty vulgar back there.

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