Video Games- Do they Help or Hinder 2A?


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FTSESQ
July 3, 2010, 08:42 PM
Hi guys,
I was thinking do video games like "Call of Duty", Grand Theft Auto, etc help or hinder our work to preserve the second amendment? On the one hand, there are many experts and psychologists the say that playing violent video games can desensitize people (especially kids) to violence; thus making them more likely to commit violent acts or reenact what they do in the games. And some games, like "Grand Theft Auto", can hardly be cited as example of responsible firearm ownership/ usage.

On the other hand, one of the guys I work with (who was an anti 2A person a year ago) has actually started shooting in a responsible manner because of these games. In his case, his interest was piqued by the guns in the video games; so much that he went to a local range and rented some of the guns in the game to see first hand if these were the dealers of death on the news or if they were just tools that could be used for good or evil (for lack of better terms) depending on who was holding them. He has since taken a safety course, a basic pistol course, and an intermediate pistol course so that he can safely operate his firearm. He is now a gun owner (self converted), but may not have been if not for the interest generated from the game.

So, what are your thoughts? I have always thought that you are what you are due to how you were raised, and no amount of video games or movies could make you anything else. But, this case is making me rethink my position. We now have a responsible, well trained gun owner thanks to a video game (Thank you Call of Duty).

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Nushif
July 3, 2010, 08:45 PM
This'll be good ...

FTSESQ
July 3, 2010, 08:55 PM
Nushif- I'm not trying to whack the hornets nest here. I am genuinely interested it what you guys think. On one hand they can give the anti's ammo. On the other, they can introduce folks to firearms who may have otherwise had no interest in them.

Maelstrom
July 3, 2010, 09:13 PM
I will say this, when teaching my son the basic of marksmanship I was able to use Call of Duty:Modern Warfare 2 as an aid.

The game does accurately (pardon the pun) depict proper sight alignment. Showing him how the sights line up made it easy for him to mimic.

FIVETWOSEVEN
July 3, 2010, 09:14 PM
I fully realized my interest because of video games.

Cap'n Jack Burntbeard
July 3, 2010, 09:15 PM
there are many experts and psychologists the say that playing violent video games can desensitize people (especially kids) to violence; thus making them more likely to commit violent acts or reenact what they do in the games
This is utter bull, since the dawn of civilization and probably before, games have been a form of simulated combat.:eek:
Have some links:
http://www.pbs.org/kcts/videogamerevolution/impact/myths.html
http://www.crunchgear.com/2007/04/18/why-video-games-dont-cause-violence/
http://www.physorg.com/news5758.html
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Most-kids-unaffected-by-violent-games/2007/04/01/1175366055463.html

Like anything, it depends on the mindset of the user.

Although games tend to open the mind of the user towards firearms, it often leaves them completely ignorant of the function, types, proper terminology, and proper use of firearms.

What we as the firearm community need to do is reach out to as many of these people as possible, try to educate as many of them as possible, offer to take them shooting.

FTSESQ
July 3, 2010, 10:38 PM
This is utter bull, since the dawn of civilization and probably before, games have been a form of simulated combat

As far as them being full of bull is not really the issue. If enough doctors (Phd's or MD's) say it is so, then there will be credibility lent to it.

Like anything, it depends on the mindset of the user.

This was always my thought too, so no argument there.

Although games tend to open the mind of the user towards firearms, it often leaves them completely ignorant of the function, types, proper terminology, and proper use of firearms.

As far as function and proper use go, I agree. But the kid at work seemed to pick up a lot of terminology and names of specific guns despite not knowing them from a hole in the ground.

What we as the firearm community need to do is reach out to as many of these people as possible, try to educate as many of them as possible, offer to take them shooting.

Agreed! 100%! But in the case I referenced, the game was the catalyst that allowed the education to sink in, or be accepted in the first place. In this case there was someone who did not think "common folk" should have guns, to someone who now believes everyone should have one, and all the logic in the world might not have gotten through to him if he didn't play that stupid game.

Uhrmacher
July 3, 2010, 10:56 PM
I'm torn on this one. I was always interested in firearms as a kid despite the fact that my parents owned none and I had no first hand experience with them. Even before I was old enough to take the plunge and buy my first, I would often idly and enviously read gun articles on the internet. Video games probably played some role in sustaining my interest, but I have always thought of my passion for firearms as totally separate from them.

I usually hesitate to bring up the subject of firearms with fellow college students because it seems that many of them see guns exclusively from the perspective of video games. It's especially frustrating to come across those who have rarely if ever handled a real firearm and certainly never considered the responsibilities that come along with keeping one for self defense, yet fancy themselves experts thanks to video games and take it upon themselves to spread all sorts of misinformation to others. If (gently) confronted with facts or the idea that guns can be more than just trivial toys they tend to assume a glazed look and not comprehend a word that is said to them.

Sometimes I think it would be better to be able to start with a clean slate and introduce people to shooting as the great centuries old sport that it is, avoiding the possibility of them thinking of it as merely an extension of mindless video games.

Full Disclosure: I've played lots of video games, including plenty of mindless shooters.

FTSESQ
July 3, 2010, 11:02 PM
I usually hesitate to bring up the subject of firearms with fellow college students because it seems that many of them see guns exclusively from the perspective of video games. It's especially frustrating to come across those who have rarely if ever handled a real firearm and certainly never considered the responsibilities that come along with keeping one for self defense, yet fancy themselves experts thanks to video games and take it upon themselves to spread all sorts of misinformation to others.

Sounds like the interest may be there and its just a a matter of converting that interest into a trip to the range. I don't know. When I was a kid, "Street Fighter" and "mortal Kombat" were the pinnacle of video games, so its hard for me to tell.

benEzra
July 3, 2010, 11:47 PM
On the one hand, there are many experts and psychologists the say that playing violent video games can desensitize people (especially kids) to violence; thus making them more likely to commit violent acts or reenact what they do in the games.
There are a handful of authors/speakers and public figures who have really run with this claim (e.g., Jack Thompson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Thompson_%28activist%29), Dave Grossman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Grossman_%28author%29)), but the argument has been very thoroughly debunked, starting around a decade ago. The same arguments have in the past been applied to movies and TV, Dungeons & Dragons, comic books, crime novels, and edgy music, and I'm sure they will crop up again as soon as a new form of media is invented.

Think about this fact for a minute, though: Juvenile crime is right now the lowest it has ever been since we started measuring it. If playing video games made kids violent, then we'd be seeing more juvenile violence, not less.

And some games, like "Grand Theft Auto", can hardly be cited as example of responsible firearm ownership/ usage.
I don't think those games draw many "game gun enthusiasts," either. There's a reason why interest in guns by people who have never shot real ones was originally dubbed the "Counterstrike Effect," and Call of Duty is really the heir to that mantle now.

On the other hand, one of the guys I work with (who was an anti 2A person a year ago) has actually started shooting in a responsible manner because of these games. In his case, his interest was piqued by the guns in the video games; so much that he went to a local range and rented some of the guns in the game to see first hand if these were the dealers of death on the news or if they were just tools that could be used for good or evil (for lack of better terms) depending on who was holding them. He has since taken a safety course, a basic pistol course, and an intermediate pistol course so that he can safely operate his firearm. He is now a gun owner (self converted), but may not have been if not for the interest generated from the game.
I have seen this too, and I think it is the most likely outcome as far as real-world effects go. A couple of generations ago, young adults watched Westerns and detective movies, and grew up and bought .30-30 Winchesters and revolvers in real life. In the case of games, I think some people do go from being in-game gun aficionados to being real-life gun aficionados, sometimes passing through Airsoft on the way there. I don't think that's a bad thing, but it does mean that we as the shooting culture have to be willing to mentor them along the way and teach them about gun safety and responsible ownership, and not make fun of them when they first show up at a gun store or the shooting range and don't know how much they don't know.

Nushif
July 4, 2010, 12:16 AM
To be honest I did buy my first handgun simply because I love 1950s Detective Movies and the accompanying games. (LA Noire! Woo!)

Art Eatman
July 4, 2010, 12:34 AM
This surely doesn't belong in the Activism forum. Let's try it in the General forum and see if it lives...

ArtP
July 4, 2010, 01:24 AM
Deleted message

Chemist
July 4, 2010, 01:28 AM
Check out this link to a game that is called a training aide...muddy waters now? You decide.

http://www.imarksman.com/

I think it's crap. In GTA don't you get to beat-up hookers and buy drugs? Does that teach men to beat women? Does that train kids to do drugs? In a word, no.

MudPuppy
July 4, 2010, 01:37 AM
I know several folks that weren't exposed to firearms that took an interest after playing shooter games. We have a few more responsible firearm owners because of BF1942 (buddy bought an enfield) and COD (AKs and ARs, primarily).

All that other horsehockey about exposing to violence or honing skills is just that. While I agree with Mael you can use it as an illustration, it'll have about as much practical uses as airsoft in creating a blackops commando.

It's getting harder and harder for the next generation to get any exposure to firearms--a slow, steady drain on enthusiast population may be where we're headed. (you folks that are taking the time to mentor and help youngsters with parents that don't have the interest are patriots and heroes in my book)

sv51macross
July 4, 2010, 01:52 AM
In HS I was rather an anti-gun individual, idolizing Michael Moore (still do, but for Sicko. I hate BfC now I know the truth). I did see some tidbits here and there from places I don't remember. The only instance I can specifically recall was the thing about Florida moving to shall-issue and crime dropping. (I asked my dad about it and he made the typical anti statement about the place becoming like Israel; a car backfires and everyone draws down. I didn't buy it and I think that was the turning point for me.)

Anyway, in College, one of my roommates brought his copy of GTA4. Instantly my favorite game. Upon finishing, I got it in my head that I wanted one of the assault rifles[boy was that a learning curve] from the game as a range toy, and looking into it began me down the path, you could say.

Playing MW2 with my brother's friends, it seems of his little circle that are into that game, they're at least 2A-neutral.

ArtP
July 4, 2010, 01:54 AM
+1 mudpuppy!

M-Cameron
July 4, 2010, 02:01 AM
quite frankly, i think the whole argument that " video games desensitize kids to violence" is a load of crap.....if your kid goes out and holds up a bank, runs over an old lady, and beats up a hooker....its not because he spent to much time playing GTA....its because youre a bad parent...period.

everything now a days is about pushing responsibility off onto someone/ something else...which is how all this violent video game mumbo jumbo got started....no one is willing to admit they screwed up.

Echo9
July 4, 2010, 02:19 AM
Man, Call of Duty. I'll admit I'm a fan (not of the most recent one), but my interest in firearms came way before that.

Seriously. COD really does get younger people into guns. At work, I watch kids aged 10-19 or so point out guns to their dads and explain what they are. And all the time, kids ask me if we have stuff from games.

"Do you have any Desert Eagles?"
"Do you have any MP5s?"
"Do you have any SCARs?"
"D you have any G18s?"

Constantly.

Mind you, half the time they're asking me for class three stuff. But it really does get them interested.

Now as for this "desensitizing" thing. Complete BS. I don't care how many games you've played and how violent they were. There is no game on the planet that will actually drive someone to kill. Think of the differences between a digital pistol and a real one. Noise. Recoil. Muzzle flash. Even the smell of cordite. Video games cannot prepare you for what those things are really like in the real world.

Think of how strikingly different guns are in video games versus real life. Now think about how different killing someone is in video games versus real life. Video games aren't even capable of desensitizing someone to the point that they are indifferent to human suffering. Video games just don't have that capacity. They can't possibly simulate (nor would it be fun if they did) the anguish that comes as a consequence of ending a human life. Not to mention the less Hollywood aspects of human death.

ArtP
July 4, 2010, 02:19 AM
quite frankly, i think the whole argument that " video games desensitize kids to violence" is a load of crap.....if your kid goes out and holds up a bank, runs over an old lady, and beats up a hooker....its not because he spent to much time playing GTA....its because youre a bad parent...period..

You know what? I used to think just like you do. I have a question for you, if I may? I have a 20 year-old son who is sharp as a tack but spends his time growing weed and working as a handi-man at a motel in the Napa Valley. My 18 year-old daughter hasn't smoked weed, or at least hasn't made a habit of it, and is moving to San Diego to go to San Diego State University on full scholarships and scored number two in her class on the SAT's.

My son quit sports at 8th grade and my daughter continued to play through her senior year on three varsity teams. And I coached both of them all the way through.

I'd like to know from you and the rest of those who make the sort of comments, if I treated one different than the other; and if parenting is all to blame or all to give credit to?

It's a classic argument... Is it nature or nuture. I can tell you first hand, nature seems to have a lot to do with it - meaning no control. Given the same upbringing, one seems to succeed while the other one appears to fail.

You shouldn't be so quick to whack the parents.

My prediction is my son will make it and my daughter will rely on someone else. My son is smarter but my daughter is more discsiplined.

Cap'n Jack Burntbeard
July 4, 2010, 02:45 AM
"Do you have any Desert Eagles?"
"Do you have any MP5s?"
"Do you have any SCARs?"
"D you have any G18s?"

Constantly.

I see those types in the fun store all the time, it makes my brain melt a little every time I hear someone spout off about ".50 cals" ( they dont seem to know the difference between .50BMG, .50AE, and .50Beowulf), "assault rifles", "sniper rifles", and "hunting rifles".:banghead:

Sometimes I try to helpfully offer some advice or explain the different operating mechanisms each firearm, while giving them subtle correction.

But other times I just go stare at the old mausers, and wonder if they feel my pain.:uhoh:

Big_E
July 4, 2010, 03:04 AM
ArtP, you seem to have a very interesting situation. I have a friend whos brother is not disciplined and completely slacked through school and now he has a brighter future right now than my friend who tried in school and was respectful to his parents.

I think parents are at fault in some ways since their mom is far too controlling. However, the nature part has to do with their personality, since their parents raised them the same way but they took completely opposite paths.

Now to stay on topic. Video games definitely helped reinforce my interest in firearms when I was younger. However, I have always been fascinated by them. Probably because my both sides of my family has/had a long history with them and my father's career is based around fire arms. Unfortunately, pop's didn't have a huge arsenal like I am massing, but still enough to keep my interest. They always told me to do the right things in life and to be a good person, and I have mostly done that despite having been immersed in violence since as long as I remember (yeah Power Rangers growing up, they beat up bad guys, Ninja Turtles too, key is they used FORCE.)

So, ultimately it is the parents responsibility to show children the good path. As well as understanding their child's behavior. It is also the child's job to understand morality and follow it. But, as history and society show not everyone will do good.

M-Cameron
July 4, 2010, 03:09 AM
ArtP....certainly there are the effects of Nature vs Nurture and sure, there are more variables to how a person turns out than one can possible conceive of......but i think what it comes down to is that we are talking about slightly different situations....

as regrettable as your son growing weed is....he is not causing anyone any harm in his actions.......where as going on a shooting spree and mimicking video games..well.....you get the point.


if someone thinks its a good idea to reenact GTA.....they either have serious mental issues that need to be addressed, or this behavior was either knowingly or unknowingly encouraged........in either event, a parent should intervene to correct the situation....

i think any parent would be disappointed in their kids for not achieving their full potential.....but when your kid goes on a shooting spree....i think you can agree that they would realize that they screwed up as a parent

Hawthorne2k
July 4, 2010, 03:31 AM
All I know is that 3 years of playing "Centipede (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centipede_(video_game))" in High School hasn't given me the urge to blast every multi-legged critter and every mushroom I come across, therefore I doubt GTA and Call of Duty are raising up a nation of spree killers.

:D:D:D

Snowdog
July 4, 2010, 03:34 AM
I can't think of a single positive thing Helghan has done for our 2nd Amendment.

Sunray
July 4, 2010, 03:47 AM
They're fantasy games. Nothing whatever to do with reality any more than Grand Theft-Auto is about safe driving.
"...able to use Call of Duty:Modern Warfare 2 as an aid...." Rubbish. That's like saying a flight simulator can teach you to fly. Have one that lets me dive bomb in a Lancaster. Buddy's Da, who was a CATP instructor, looked at me like I was nuts and said, "Why?" Told him, "Because it's a computer game and I can."
Anybody who thinks a computer game has anything whatever to do with reality is very confused about what is and is not real. They likely think everything they see on TV, in movies and cartoons is real too. Desparately in need of a mental health professional.

Fleetwood_Captain
July 4, 2010, 04:16 AM
Kind of like asking if Hollywood helps or hinders the 2nd amendment, don't you think?

After all, handguns that have twice their actual magazine capacity on film are about comparable to "pistol ammo" being usable in pistols that are actually different calibers. You gotta love how the PPK, Tokarev, UZI, FN P-90, and Ruger Redhawk all use the same ammo according to 007 Goldeneye on the N64.

ArtP
July 4, 2010, 05:59 AM
ArtP, you seem to have a very interesting situation. I have a friend whos brother is not disciplined and completely slacked through school and now he has a brighter future right now than my friend who tried in school and was respectful to his parents.

Yeah, I understand.

But honestly no one is too controlling on either of them, otherwise I would not be privy to him growing pot. Right? He invites me into his hotel room to see his weed (he's got six plants). I don't smoke the stuff myself but I love him with all my heart, so I visit and let him be who he is. I just ask him to get a prescript - this is California. Over and over I ask, because I don't want to see him with a felony. I tempt him by saying he can never have the Beretta 9 that I have offered him with a felony.

Guess who never lost a basketball game until sophmore high school (that's 8 years)? Guess? Guess who works at a coffee shop while in high school? Guess who gets perfect grades and has taken all the AP classes? Guess who is the home-coming queen? Guess who spoke at the graduation?

Guess who calls me when they're excited about something? It's my son, the so-called loser of the two.

I'm just ranting. If that's allowed still, thanks for letting me.

ArtP
July 4, 2010, 06:02 AM
Care to take a bet on Centipede? I'll whip some...

How 'bout defender? I love Defender.

TNT in Round Rock
July 4, 2010, 07:18 AM
if some of you are familiar with Penn and Teller and their show "Bull***** !!" .. (apologies for the language but that IS the title of their show) - they have an episode about the evils of the video games and those bad bad guns. Pretty insightful and well done episode. Very pro 2A and RKBA

Hatterasguy
July 4, 2010, 09:55 AM
One of the reasons I got into guns, and part of what guides what I buy are the games I used to play when I was younger. Now I can own my favorite guns in the games and thats just cool.:D Or the shows I used to watch. I'm not above saying I want a 92FS because Revy used a pair in Black Lagoon.:D

I know a couple people who got interested in firearms because of games. I live in a pretty built up area so their isn't much hunting or exposure to firearms.

FTSESQ
July 4, 2010, 11:45 AM
they dont seem to know the difference between .50BMG, .50AE, and .50Beowulf), "assault rifles", "sniper rifles", and "hunting rifles"....

But other times I just go stare at the old mausers, and wonder if they feel my pain

Ha ha ha ha... Mauser felling your pain... You almost owed me a new keyboard sir.

Sounds like a lot of positive results here.

heron
July 4, 2010, 12:57 PM
I was growing up before transistors existed (remember vacuum tubes?) and we played violent games all the time, with toy guns if we had them, and/or sticks as pretend guns. We all killed each other hundreds of times over, but the next day, we'd just as likely be exploring on our bikes, swimming, or something totally different. Shooting games were just one of a variety of forms of play that we had, and it didn't seem to warp any of us into heinous criminals. On the other hand, it didn't teach us much about real guns, either.

otcconan
July 4, 2010, 01:38 PM
I can't speak to the negative effect of games, but I spent nearly 10 years playing Day of Defeat, a WW2 Half-Life mod, and my most recent encounter with a real M1 Carbine was most satisfactory. As in, I knew exactly how much elevation to dial in.

What a game can't prepare you for is the reality of recoil and wind. It can certainly teach you proper sighting and elevation.

Check out Kuma games for real-world situations set in the Half-Life 2 engine (read: you can re-enact Fallujah). I knew exactly how to use an AR after playing a little bit of that. Still, like I said, nothing is like the real thing, but we all used simulators in driver's ed before going out on the road with our instructors, right?

That said, a 3rd person game like GTA is not going to teach you squat about firearms usage. On the other hand, playing America's Army online....

Roswell_Kid
July 4, 2010, 02:14 PM
I have been in the computer industry since before the IBM PC. Over 25 years ago the first version of Microsoft´s Flight Simulator got me hooked on games/simulators. Since then I´ve spent a significant part of my career working with companies which design and sell high performance PCs and components with the express purpose of driving the most resource-intensive software - PC games.

Studies by "experts" notwithstanding, I have never seen any real evidence of a gamer being somehow desensitized to violence and bloodshed or somehow inspired to violent crime. However, like some of the posters above, there have been many instances of gamers who, otherwise ignorant of real world firearms, became curious enough to learn about them and perhaps have their own.

And not just guns - PC games like Call of Duty, Medal of Honor, Silent Hunter and many, many others have inspired further learning about the real world and about history in ways that the "progressive" politically correct classroom has not.

In my opinion (for all the 2 cents that it´s worth), the anti´s hate first person shooters because they can end up acting as an agent to remove ignorance. The claims of desensitizing are unsubstantiated ruse, more thought police mind-control-freak smoke and mirrors.

Dokkalfar
July 4, 2010, 02:28 PM
The problem with games like GTA is that they tend to glorify violence, crime, sex, etc. They don't really have any basis in fact or, I think, really offer any benefit to the player.

CoD, Clancy games, and ones like that do get people interested somewhat in firearms, but the games simply don't really communicate the actual experience. Some people might actually go out and try using an actual firearm because of those games (and may be disappointed by the availability of their oh-so-loved RPG or uzi).

Overall I think they're good for getting interest in the shooting sports and firearms, But for practicality they are pretty much worthless. Recoil is not a small controller vibrating in your hands.

Justin
July 4, 2010, 07:39 PM
They're fantasy games. Nothing whatever to do with reality any more than Grand Theft-Auto is about safe driving"...able to use Call of Duty:Modern Warfare 2 as an aid...." to fly. Have one that lets me dive bomb in a Lancaster. Buddy's Da, who was a CATP instructor, looked at me like was nuts and said, "Why?" Told him, "Because it's a computer game and I can." Anybody who thinks a computer game has anything whatever to do with reality is very confused about what is and is not real. They likely think everything they see on TV in movies and cartoons is real too. Desparately in need of a mental health professional


No one here is trying to claim that video games are an honest reflection of reality, so you can stop pummeling that straw man. Clearly there are some similarities here and there, but realism is always going to be counterbalanced by playability and fun. Doesn't matter if the game is Gran Turismo, Modern Warfare 2, or Guitar Hero.

However, that lack of realism in the name of fun doesn't mean that a video game can't be a good jumping off point for developing a real-world interest in car racing, firearms, or guitar playing.

As such, as gun owners we should be open and welcoming of any venue that could pique the interest of a newbie, and if someone's interest is a result of their having played video games it's no big deal. We should be willing to competently and politely correct them on the things that are wrong and bring them into the shooting culture because every time someone decides to venture into our world and buy their first gun, we become stronger.

Gouranga
July 4, 2010, 08:12 PM
Not sure if any of you ever played Midtown madness. It was a MS driving game I played like crazy as a teen. It involved tearing through cities with various cars, police chasing you, running down sidewalks, mailboxes, paper boxes, and just absolute mayhem. I used to actually mod my car so it was indestructible so I could wallop the cops and other drivers in ways that completely violated the laws of physics (in a fun way).

I am sorry to disappoint the psychologists but despite hundred of hours on that game, I have never run from a cop, driven down the sidewalk, deliberately run into other vehicles, of run mayhem down the streets trying to imitate the game.

I also play grand Theft Auto 2 a LOT. Never stolen a car, or shot anyone. I also come from a broken home. However, I also had a father who would have whopped me for even thinking about doing that crud for real. I had a sister who was a cop who would have taken into a cell and beat me silly (yeah getting beaten by your sister sounds embarrassing but you got to meet her first). The reason kids will repeat these games are generally (using WIDE generalities here), are going to happy because of bad parenting, mental imbalances, or just fluke tweaks in a persons morality. Blaming it on a game, is just flat out lame.

People are responsible for their own actions not video games.

bgrav321
July 4, 2010, 08:27 PM
I guess I sort of came the other way. I enjoy playing the entire COD franchise (save the most recent one) BECAUSE of my interest in history and firearms.

I've loved guns and military history my whole life. Having played the first installment of COD extensively in high school, the week after I turned 18 I bought my first Mosin Nagant 91/30. Then I got a Tokarev. Then a shotgun. Then a Lee Enfield. Then an AK-47. Not because of video games, I'd been shooting my whole life, but COD in particular was a chance to see some of the history I used to literally spend hours per day reading about played out in first person. No harm in it whatsoever. After my first rifle I started going on long backpacking trips in national forests with a few like minded friends and my brother, all carrying milsurp guns we'd grown up using in COD.

I might also add that I have many 'nerd' aquaintances who have never hiked more than 3 miles in their life , but when presented with a chance to shoot the guns from COD4, (mostly 92fs and AK), they realize how much cooler the real thing is and get into it. I know a nerd who is now a dedicated reloader because of playing America's Army. Just my .02

Justin
July 4, 2010, 08:30 PM
Gouranga, you make a good point. Responsibility rests with the individual. It's the power mongering idiots with poor impulse control and access to media airtime who manage to ruin it for everyone else.

Were this the 1990s, they'd be up in arms over hiphop. The 1980s, it'd be hard rock and heavy metal. The 1950s would have been comic books or Elvis. The 1800s they'd be upset about horror novels.

There's always a moral panic to be latched onto by those who are incapable of thinking rationally.

bigalexe
July 4, 2010, 08:45 PM
Games are fantasy: Playing Monopoly does not create great economists.

I think the root of the thread is a 2 pronged question.
1.) Does playing games positively, negatively, or negligently effect one's ability with a firearm.
2.) Does the image of firearms portrayed in video games consumed by the masses positively, negatively, or negligently effect views of firearms by the masses and henceforth the drive for firearm rights.

To answer the first question: I play FPS games quite a bit and have done so longer than I have been shooting guns. I do not believe a single bit that playing video games has helped me learn to shoot, I know that playing racing games has not improved my driving skills either. The only connection I have drawn between the two was that shooting trap in real life has made me a better gamer due to my ability to lead targets.

I do not think playing video games can really effect your shooting abilities any more than watching movies, or using other aids such as pictures. Basically you can't take an expert video gamer and expect them to be an expert sniper.

To answer the 2nd question: Firearms in many video games are portrayed similarly to movies except in a more interactive manner. Outside of the Call of Duty and Medal of Honor series of games there are many instances of what I like to call Magic Bullet Machines and instant-kill guns with no recoil.

I do not believe this helps the cause of Pro-2A groups because it perpetuates myths of firearms present in popular culture. As long as these falsehoods are perpetuated then the mass public without experience will continue to believe that shotguns can blow 3 foot wide holes in steel walls and that AR-15's can shoot 300 rounds without stopping.

hso
July 4, 2010, 11:59 PM
Yes

Cap'n Jack Burntbeard
July 5, 2010, 12:07 AM
Were this the 1990s, they'd be up in arms over hiphop. The 1980s, it'd be hard rock and heavy metal. The 1950s would have been comic books or Elvis. The 1800s they'd be upset about horror novels.

There's always a moral panic to be latched onto by those who are incapable of thinking rationally.

Rational thought is a rarity among us, the majority subscribes to a different line of thinking, it goes something like this: "when in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout".:eek:

gunnutery
July 5, 2010, 01:59 AM
I grew up playing video games from an Atari 2600 to the XBox and PS2. I've played plenty of violent games yet I am not a violent man. I saw the guns in the games as tools to help you win the game. I never thought of the game itself as a tool.

I'm sure there are some kids out there with violent tendancies already that could possibly view some games as "trainers." I agree that the parents need to try to be more in tune to what their kids are up to AND act accordingly.

It's just like our society to look to place blame on something other than the people causing violent crime. People need to take responsiblilty for their own actions. And people need to place blame directly on the person pulling the triggers or what have you.

ny32182
July 5, 2010, 11:26 AM
The answer to the original question is that games help, no question. Games are, these days often going to be the only exposure that many kids may get to "shooting firearms" in today's society. If games can spark an interest in a kid that leads to a desire to actually shoot some guns and become a gun owner, then great. That definitely happens... a LOT more often than the reverse of some kid playing a video game, and as a direct result deciding to become a flaming anti.

Moving on to some of the other topics discussed...

As far as the level of reality in games; all games can hope to be is an accurate simulation. That simulation has the potential to be very realistic, from the 3rd party perspective of playing a game. Example; Gran Turismo 5 is/will be the most accurate widely available sports car depiction ever created. The depiction of the cars' performance will be stunningly accurate. However, "driving" them through the controller will not teach you how to drive an actual car on a racetrack.

Same with guns; they could be accurately simulated in games... there is nothing up to the same level of reality as GT5 is to cars in the gun game world yet that I have seen, but they are getting better all the time. Some of the stuff in MW2 is very impressive compared to what was out there a few years ago. Even if the depiction of guns in games became perfect, it would not translate to actual skill building in shooting a firearm, because clicking a controller is not the same thing as shooting; I don't think anyone is saying it is.

And GTA is great fun; probably my favorite gaming franchise ever :).... but can't really be billed as attempting to be an accurate simulation of anything. It is just good old fashioned fun.

happygeek
July 5, 2010, 04:23 PM
Call of Duty isn't meant to be ultra realistic. If it was, it'd more like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5tRNs2X5Q4

I don't know if FPSs help all that much, but I certainly don't think they hurt. For me personally, I probably would have bought a gun or two eventually, but the first firearm I ever bought was a 1911. Why? Call of Duty World at War. I later bought a M1 Garand and I plan on buying a Mosin in the not too distant future, and maybe a TT33 ...

Now if only a critical mass of gamers would start pushing for the repeal of that stupid 86 law so that we could all own real M4A1s ...

Cap'n Jack Burntbeard
July 6, 2010, 12:51 AM
Now if only a critical mass of gamers would start pushing for the repeal of that stupid 86 law so that we could all own real M4A1s ...

I like your kind of thinking, but if we could truly harness their power, one may as well go for the NFA '34.:D
As awesome as that would be, the chances of me seeing it are pretty slim.

NinjaFeint
July 6, 2010, 12:56 AM
Video games have helped my interest in many things, guns included. I still "dork out" at getting to run the drill course in modern warfare 2 with an ACR and a G18.

Video games didn't start my interest in games but they have helped nurture it.

Justin
July 6, 2010, 01:00 AM
One other point to ponder regarding this topic: more and more games aren't something you play on youe own or with a couple of friends. All of the major consoles now have inbuilt abilities to access the internet, and most games, including the first-person shooters have online components that allow players to not only snipe at each other, but talk with one another via Bluetooth headsets.

If that isn't a venue for piquing people's real-world interest in guns, I don't know what is.

inSight-NEO
July 6, 2010, 01:05 AM
In my opinion, they do neither.

Playing a "consumer based" game, no matter how realistic, generally does not go very far beyond "point and shoot." Hence, not much more useful than "whacking the mole." Trying to equate the use of guns within a game to those used in reality would be nonsense.

Military simulations...perhaps not so. But, we are not talking about such games here.

Frankly, I think games are games. Plain and simple. Separating reality from unreality is up to parental guidance...not the game developer.

The introduction to (virtual) guns (and, perhaps violence) is not necessarily the same as knowing how to effectively use a gun [in reality], why it is used or developing the desire to even use such an item. This, again, is up to parental guidance. Same thing goes for watching almost any film directed by the likes of Martin Scorsese, Quentin Tarentino and the Coen brothers..to name but a small few.

Games deal with unreality...fiction, no matter how "realistically" portrayed. The right to bear arms deals with long term tradition...reality...an established thing. Simply being "desensitized' to violence should not automatically assume that one will feel the need to grab a weapon and start raising hell.

Even as adults, we are constantly exposed/desensitized to violence. It is not just within games. It is found within print, on the computer screen, in the movie theater and the TV screen. The difference, again, between reality and unreality is the idea of real life consequences. In regards to children, this is learned by example and responsible parenting...plain and simple.

If games were ever truly used as a method of Second Amendment slander, then this would be a truly pathetic, desperate cause indeed.

NinjaFeint
July 6, 2010, 01:12 AM
An interest in guns is not the same as knowing how to use one.

An interest is a start, we were all interested but not knowledgeable at some point.

Guncollector1982
July 6, 2010, 01:17 AM
I think that WWII games intrigue kids to want to shoot a M1 or whatever but at the same time i dissaprove of the amount of time most kids spend in front of the TV playing them. But overall i think they do give spark to the gun flame.....Or they wouldnt wanna playem. Its kinda the similar to same people that said that coyote and roadrunner droppin acme anvils on each others heads created violent kids though ive never seen a kid that could lift a anvil let alone carry it uphill to a cliff. Id say video games are good encouragers of firearms but i believe in there moderation to kids should be chasing cars or somethin outside :)

NinjaFeint
July 6, 2010, 01:21 AM
If games are ever truly used as a method of Second Amendment slander, then this would be a truly pathetic, desperate cause indeed.

I think video games and responsible gun ownership are attacked by the same people who are citing the same reason, violence. They blame both for violence in different ways. The video games get blamed for giving them the idea and the guns for giving them the means.

Neither is true and I think supporters of guns and video games counter with the same argument, responsibility and common sense.

opie4386
July 6, 2010, 01:22 AM
UGH im so fed up with people and the ".50cal" i always tell people about the .338 lapua mag and other large cal's. BUT as a matter of fact im taking my friend shooting for the first time this friday THANKS to video game's i think the ANTI-everything people just get there hands on everything they can get. Wait till the army gets the SCAR's and it will be "THE EVIL TAN RIFLES" and no one will know what a m-16 is anymore

Cosmoline
July 6, 2010, 01:23 AM
Although games tend to open the mind of the user towards firearms, it often leaves them completely ignorant of the function, types, proper terminology, and proper use of firearms.

This used to be the case, but it's slowly getting better. The days of the pump action that can fire both barrels at once seem to be over.

Take for example one game that spans several generations of computer games. Castle Wolfenstein.

The first game featured only crude pixel tossers in 2d

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uTBVapjyYA&feature=related

The second version in the early 90's featured slightly less crude weapons in very early 3d

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C00n4rDUMNo

The third version featured an array of both real and fanciful WWII era weapons. Not exactly range-realistic, but a lot closer than the earlier versions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZokNe4I27zg

And there are also some exceptionally realistic games that don't even give you aimpoints. Here's Red Orchestra gameplay:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o646L2QzYmw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk6URooj9W0


Kind of like asking if Hollywood helps or hinders the 2nd amendment, don't you think?

No, not at all. The folks who design computer games are a very different bunch from a very different background than the folks who write, produce and direct motion pictures. Game designers are *much* younger and tend to be far less devoted to any particular political view. They're geeks, to be blunt about it. And so are we, to be blunt about it.

Cap'n Jack Burntbeard
July 6, 2010, 01:32 AM
They're geeks, to be blunt about it. And so are we, to be blunt about it.

Truer words were never spoken.:cool:

The days of the pump action that can fire both barrels at once seem to be over.

Us gamers can only wish for deer hunter's Remington 1740.:D

inSight-NEO
July 6, 2010, 01:45 AM
An interest is a start, we were all interested but not knowledgeable at some point.

True. But, being interested means nothing without initiative and guidance. In terms of a child, it becomes the parents responsibility to guide [with care] such an interest and initiative. If such guidance is ignored, then who is truly to blame? The game developer? Not a chance. The parent? Well.....

If one cannot separate reality from fiction, then it is either due to lack of responsible guidance or some type of mental shortcoming. Many variables exist here.

I grew up on the likes of DOOM...a very "violent" and weapon oriented game. Yes, I learned to to put the reticle on the opponent and blast away until bloody guts spewed forth. Guess what? Did this make me a better shooter in life? No way. Did this make me want to grab my dads handgun and go blast humans? Not a chance. Did this harbor a lust [within me] for violence? Nope. Were there guns in the home? Yes.

Why "no" to all of this? I had parents whom I respected and who led by positive example; who made me aware of truth and consequences...fact from fiction. Also, I was of "sound" mind...so I knew that when I grabbed that controller, it was a GAME!!!

Anyone who claims that video game violence is the cause of a violent youth is doing nothing more than buying in to political, anti-gun mentality propaganda. Should we then begin blaming, for instance, the "hunter dad" who takes pride in teaching his kid how to effectively kill [animals] with a gun?

Cosmoline
July 6, 2010, 02:19 AM
inSIght, I don't know if you're aware of this (because I wasn't until recently), but the market for action-oriented games is NOT children but 20 and 30 somethings. It's precisely the market the real gun makers need to rely on for the next generation of sales.

inSight-NEO
July 6, 2010, 02:25 AM
inSIght, I don't know if you're aware of this (because I wasn't until recently), but the market for action-oriented games is NOT children but 20 and 30 somethings. It's precisely the market the real gun makers need to rely on for the next generation of sales.

Yes. I have know this for quite a while. Still, the "violent" games of today seem to be used as a tool to [help] explain youthful tendencies towards violence.

After all, do you honestly think that politicians (who would use such an argument) truly care about which "target age groups" are established by those who market such games? Violence in games happens to be a great propaganda tool. Regardless of us who may be "in the know," many still consider video games to be primarily the domain of youth..even though this in no longer necessarily the case.

Regardless, children could still end up being "exposed" to such games, and for many who are against such a thing, this is enough reason to raise a stink. Sad, but true.

Now, I am also aware that "juvenile" crime has dropped steadily over the years. However, while not necessarily a "juvenile" issue, the Virginia Tech massacre, as a fairly recent example, was blamed (thanks to the usual suspects) on the influence of video games. So, while the argument may be old and somewhat "debunked," it is still there.

BHP FAN
July 6, 2010, 02:31 AM
My son has just about every WWII game made. Want to guess what his first purchase was as soon as he hit 18? An M1 Garand. Take that, anti gamers.

ddtaylor
July 6, 2010, 03:17 AM
I grew up playing fps I remember cod3 and socom on ps2 when I was in highschool. I bought a mosin as my 1st firearm because of them and it is all a poor highschool kid can get. My grandfather was the only one I remember even shooting a gun my dad had a shotgun but it stayed in his closet for 20 something years until I wanted to try skeet shooting So I didn't grow up in a gun friendly house my mom still gets upset if I buy another gun and say "That is the biggest waste of money" .I'm moving up to bigger and more expensive firearms now but it all started with a 90 dollar rifle I used in call of duty when I was 14 but I still need to get me sword like the one cloud used in final fantasy 7.:cool:

RhinoDefense
July 6, 2010, 03:29 AM
Correlation doesn't mean causation.

Cosmoline
July 6, 2010, 03:42 AM
We're talking about inspiration.

RhinoDefense
July 6, 2010, 03:50 AM
Video games never inspired me to do anything.

Ashcons
July 6, 2010, 12:38 PM
Being both a “gamer” and a firearms enthusiast, I feel like video games are similar to guns themselves in this political arena. Alarmists like Jack Thompson and his allies in the political and media world will cherry pick from evidence to build their own version of the truth: violent video games have a direct correlation to violent crime.

Remember that, through nature and nurturing, people in general are flawed in many ways. There will always be predators in our society – violent, sexual, or other and there will always be people looking for ways to explain or excuse away the fact that there are things that go bump in the night in our civilization.

I am 29 and grew up enjoying video games from my first taste of Mario Brothers. My dad was a hunter and I have “owned” my own guns since I was in 6th grade; however, I never really enjoyed hunting and firearms were never connected with a sense of enjoyment or even importance to me until more recently in life. I can confidently say that I believe video games had no influence on my interest in firearms, although they do now (Red Dead Redemption influenced my latest purchasing decision in that I obtaining a Winchester model 1894 in .30-.30:)).

NMGonzo
July 6, 2010, 12:53 PM
I was playing WII with the rifle controls and the 20 year old daughter of a buddy of mine was leading the targets better than I do.

NMGonzo
July 6, 2010, 12:54 PM
Truer words were never spoken.:cool:



Us gamers can only wish for deer hunter's Remington 1740.:D

And fish with it.

Nausea
July 6, 2010, 07:30 PM
My forty-two year uncle and I played the first modern warfare, and then a few months later he took me to his cabin and let me fire his .357 mag a few times. I had fired an autoloader of his about five years earlier, but after becoming a fan of the "shooters" I had paid much more attention to everything I did. I will agree that video games (first person shooters) are excellent catalysts for young shooters. Being a seattlite I wouldn't normally had that much experience with a firearm, and after having that experience I'm significantly more patriotic and proud of my country. On the negative, I will say that in the newest Modern Warfare there are a few blatant marijuana references you can assign to your character, among others. I personally know a twelve year old who plays, and even though it's a 17+ game (or 18?) I am sure there are millions more who are exposed to this.

Edit: I'd like to add I'm a pacifist as well.

Lightsped
July 7, 2010, 01:52 PM
I would say videogames in general are pro 2A. I realize you always have the odd ball kid that ends up killing innocent people in real life... However, I feel that games such as Call of Duty, Battlefield Bad Company, Rainbow Six, etc.... at least give kids a basic knowledge as to the type of guns in the game and their calibers. I always like it when I hear kids talking about how well they did with their AR or AK in a video game, or how they saved the day using their Glock 18 or whatever.

I realize that no real person would enter into a gun fight using the tactics of a video game, but at least there is a firearms interest. That's better than the kids who think the word "gun" is a word or subject that shouldn't be brought up or discussed.

Also, there have been many many cases where I myself (big XBox gamer) have bought various firearms just because they were in a videogame I liked....

speaksoftly
July 7, 2010, 02:04 PM
I'd say pro 2A for sure. Also, you can learn (or at least be made aware) of some interesting concepts while playing games. I bought Modern Warfare 2 and it's been some serious fun to say the least. I play online with members of a team. We are all linked via headset and the performance of our games is directly related to the level of communication we have with each other. Not only do we have to be aware of our map, communicate vital information, and digest incoming information but being shot at by random opposing players means that you learn to do things like check corners, reload at appropriate times, take cover, shoot-n-scoot and other combat related techniques. I'm not saying that a game is anywhere near a combat situation or even a good simulation but it's at least a good mental exercise in that area.

SSN Vet
July 7, 2010, 03:24 PM
....its because youre a bad parent...period..

I strongly suspect that the folks who post such comments do not have children.

Hence, I'm not much interested in subscribing to their "parenting advice"

Nurture vs. Nature

The age old debate....

I say it's both... and I poor my heart out and bust my tail to raise my three kids, yet I'm far from perfect. None the less, in the final analysis, their going to stand on their own two feet and give an account for themselves. I suspect the ultimate judge isn't going to be to interested in "potty training" excuses. ;)

M-Cameron
July 7, 2010, 03:41 PM
....its because youre a bad parent...period..
I strongly suspect that the folks who post such comments do not have children.

Hence, I'm not much interested in subscribing to their "parenting advice"

SSN vet.......am i wrong though?


i honestly have a hard time believing that the parents of kids who go on mass shootings are parent of the year award material.

otcconan
July 7, 2010, 05:39 PM
I think games are great if they pique the interest of someone and get them to try something new...be it shooting, playing football, or playing guitar.

That being said, I must offer this caveat (as a real-life badass guitar player (http://www.myspace.com/evilmuppetproject)):

Being good at Call of Duty does not make one Vasili Zaitsev
Being good at Madden does not make one Peyton Manning.
Being good at Guitar Hero does not make one Eddie Van Halen.

...oh, and being good at MS Flight Simulator doesn't make you Chuck Yeager.

All that being said, it's still great fun and if people get into these things because of it, it's a great thing. I've got a lot of students just from people who played Guitar Hero or Rock Band. Thanks for the business, guys.

Zoogster
July 7, 2010, 08:19 PM
Video games are the new movies, only unlike movies they are interactive and get the viewer participating.

How many people first wanted some gun because of a movie or show?


Movies in general have less money put into them today (adjust for inflation.) Video games as a market have grown to match what movies once were.
They also can actually insure payment in a day of rampant piracy.
Music is routinely pirated today, movies are pirated, but most games require a unique serial number, and online games must have a proper serial number.
This makes online video games one of the safest products to produce (and invest millions in), because people will be forced to actually buy the thing to use it.



Any older people can think of movies they watched, whether westerns, military films, or various cop shows as a youngster.
Now imagine if instead of just watching you could have actually participated. How much more interesting would it have been?
There was decent movies and horrible ones, and there is horrible games and some good ones too.
For young people without actual experience with firearms, especially in urban environments, it is probably the first interest in firearms many have.




As far as good games:

The best one out right now by far has got to be this one:
http://www.realitymod.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TUrwljskNg
It is a mod (modification) for Battlefield 2 (a horrible game without the mod) that requires downloading: http://www.realitymod.com/downloads.html.
It blows all current games out of the water, including Modern Warfare 2.
It requires downloading about 4 gig of content for the mod, and purchasing Battlefield 2 ($10 new now as it is a 2005 game) and updating it to the latest patch before applying the mod (another 2.5 gig download in 2 required patches)
It is nothing like Battlefield 2, the graphics are also improved so the requirements are higher, and while there is some games with better graphics now, none have better game play.
A microphone is pretty standard, and helps communicate with your squad, but is not required.

They are really good about attention to detail for most of the small arms.
64 people playing together at once, all opponents are players too. It is only limited by who you play with, as it is a very team oriented game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB1vocqKPgo

It was featured in "SOLDIER" magazine in the UK in 2008, the official magazine of the British Army, and so got a good boost with the British population. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soldier_Magazine

It is of course still a game, and the vehicles are not simulations by any means. The factions are on more equal footing than reality so it is still fun.
But the infantry side is well done, and the best in the gaming world IMHO.

So if you have time for games, be sure to check it out. It still gets updated with new content every few months.

NMGonzo
July 7, 2010, 11:01 PM
Zoogs ... I love old movies (I grew up with them) so I have a taste (but not the money) for old looking guns.

SSN Vet
July 14, 2010, 11:30 PM
SSN vet.......am i wrong though?

In short, yes you are.

but thanks for confirming that I wasn't

Charleo0192
July 15, 2010, 12:00 PM
Basically for the majority of people games have little to no affect on how they act, but just like everything else there are the few who just don't fit that description.

NJGarand
July 15, 2010, 12:12 PM
I remember a few years back that the game Full Spectrum Warrior was developed because of the Army's interest in trying to use a game to assist in training younger generations that are used to electronic gaming.

From Wiki:

In 2000, the US Army Science & Technology community was curious to learn if commercial gaming platforms could be leveraged for training. Recognizing that a high percentage of incoming recruits had grown up using entertainment software products, there was interest in determining whether software game techniques and technology could complement and enhance established training methods.

Having established a US Army University Affiliated Research Center (the Institute for Creative Technologies – ICT) in 1999 for the purpose of advancing virtual simulation technology, work began in May 2000 on a project entitled C4 under ICT Creative Director James Korris with industry partners Sony Imageworks and their team-mate, Pandemic Studios, represented by co-founders Josh Resnick and Andrew Goldman.

At the time, there was a great deal of interest in leveraging the stability, low cost and computational/rendering power of the new generation of game consoles, chiefly Sony’s PlayStation 2 and Microsoft’s Xbox, for training applications. Legal restrictions on the PlayStation (using the platform for a military purpose) combined with the default Xbox configuration “persistence” (i.e. missions recorded on the embedded hard drive for after-action review) led to the final selection of the Xbox platform for development.

A commercial release of the game was required for Xbox platform access. The team, however, quickly concluded that a viable entertainment title might differ from a valid training tool. The exaggerated physics of entertainment software titles, it was believed, could produce a negative training effect in the Soldier audience. Accordingly, the team developed two versions of the game. The Army version was accessible through a static unlock code; the entertainment version played normally.

The most radical decision in the game’s development was to limit first-person actions to issuing orders and directions to virtual Fire Teams and Squad members (see Gameplay). Given the popularity of the first-person shooter genre, it was assumed that all tactical-level military gameplay necessarily involved individual combat action. The application defied conventional wisdom, winning both awards and commercial acceptance. The game’s working title evolved to C-Force (2001) and ultimately Full Spectrum Warrior (2003).
As work progressed on Full Spectrum Warrior, ICT developed another real-time tactical deicision-making game with Quicksilver Software entitled Full Spectrum Command for the US Army’s Infantry Captains Career Course, with the first-person perspective of a Company Commander. As the application was designed to play on a desktop PC (unlike the Xbox), no commercial release was necessary. Full Spectrum Command gave rise to a sequel developed for the US Army and Singapore Armed Forces (version 1.5). A related ICT/Quicksilver title, Full Spectrum Leader, simulates the first person perspective of a Platoon Leader.

Full Spectrum Warrior relates to the Army's program of training soldiers to be flexible and adaptable to a broad range of operational scenarios. The game’s origins are unusual: possibly unique.

jon_in_wv
November 21, 2010, 08:49 AM
Neither. Its a video game for cripes sake, nothing more.

Skribs
November 21, 2010, 10:13 AM
When I was real little, I liked both video games and action. I'm not sure which caused my love for guns, but I've wanted one since I was little and have always been fascinated with them. I played FPS games since middle school, and by talking on forums with people who have actually been there, I learned what is and isn't real. I actually learned the most about guns when I wanted to design an FPS game (I gave up on being a computer programmer after taking a computer programming class), and I did a lot of research. I wanted to make a game where you could choose to a great degree what kind of options your weapon had - e.g. the short or long barrel? Which sights? Which caliber is it chamber for? What type/weight of bullets will you use? And everything would have give or take to it, e.g. more power at the cost of more recoil, etc.

As a devil's advocate, one of the first pages someone said that video games don't desensitize you to what happens when you kill someone. Well, if you pull the trigger, you're not going to have to deal with that until after the bullet hit. I can see it easily possible that someone could do that, and only afterward realize how big of a mistake he made (or that he's a sociopath). Granted, you might get a few people who "want to try it out because they liked it", but video games aren't the problem there. It's just like the kid who murdered someone because of Dexter - it's a rarity amongst the millions of fans the show has.

Despite my love for video games, where you might have assumed I would go with a weapon from Counterstrike, America's Army, or Day of Defeat, my first pistol was an XDM (I've never seen an XD in a video game), and my first shotgun was a Supernova (despite it being an M3 and M4 in CS, a SPAS-12 in Half-Life, a Saiga in Firearms, and I would assume a Remington 870 in America's Army, accessible through cheats).

Carl N. Brown
November 21, 2010, 10:25 AM
It's just like the kid who murdered someone because of Dexter - it's a rarity amongst the millions of fans the show has.

The question should be, would that kid have murdered if he had not seen Dexter. The murdering and the seeing Dexter are not necessarily a causal relationship; or, the intent to murder attracted the kid to Dexter: the kid watched Dexter because of his homicidal tendancies.

Skribs
November 21, 2010, 10:46 AM
I should have phrased it "The kid who claimed Dexter was his inspiration to commit murder." I watch Dexter, and I don't feel the need to emulate him, except to ask for one of his shirts for christmas (to wear next halloween). Even Michael C. Hall said in an interview, when asked what are the similarities between him and Dexter, that "Obviously we have some differences, I mean I don't feel the need to dismember people." My watching Dexter hasn't changed that (that I don't feel any need to emulate him). My playing video games I don't think changed that either, in that I don't want to act out what I do in video games, unless of course it's something like paintball, airsoft, laser tag, nerf guns, etc.

Hani Pasha
November 21, 2010, 12:51 PM
I don't think I can give a general answer to this question. In a few cases I've seen, video games (and movies) have gotten teenagers and young adults seriously interested in firearms. A good few become responsible firearms owners and users.

Other times, however, I've seen people get "education" about firearms from video games, and that's never a good thing. These people tend to become anti-gun rights.

As far as me goes, I have a healthy interest in firearms and I do occasionally play video games. I don't see how these interests are exclusive or contradictory at all. Killing a bunch of al Qaeda members in MoH is a lot easier and a lot more doable than doing it in real life, unfortunately.

Madcap_Magician
November 22, 2010, 12:18 PM
I think it doesn't have much of an effect.

It does have quite an effect on people on the internet and gun boards, though, God only knows how many Counterstrike-playing trolls who've never fired a real gun feel free to spout off their gun expertise online...

brandon_mcg
November 22, 2010, 11:58 PM
in my opinion some of the games, especially the older medal of honor games and the WWII games are somewhat educational. I learned a lot about the type of guns used during those conflicts from playing video games. That being said, supplemental research needs to be conducted as well to learn the complete history of a firearm. As far as the SA i think there are bigger fires blazing at this point to let video games have much of an effect.

On second thought, there was a big stink about kobe bryant holding a ar in the call of duty back ops commercial. Why he was singled out, i'm not sure. jimmy kimble was in it as well

omegaflame
November 23, 2010, 12:09 AM
Both:

Hurt: They perpetuate negative myths about guns.

Help: They get more (generally young) people interested in firearms and learning about them.

ChCx2744
November 23, 2010, 01:59 AM
I like to see it as a coincidence, at least concerning me. I've been playing shooting games since early high school, yet I've grown up around guns since I was in elementary school. That being said, video games were definitely not what influenced my interest in guns, the people I grew up with were.

Nushif
November 23, 2010, 12:06 PM
It's a good question ... but I think we're missing a key issue here.

Do Flanel Sweaters support or hinder the 2A fight?! I find more and more exposure to flanel sweaters at ranges and a much larger variety of them among shooters at the range than I ever saw videogames. And if you think about it, have you ever been at a range where you didn't see a flanel sweater, or at least a jacket?! We are really missing out on key issues here.

You get my drift?

larryh1108
November 23, 2010, 03:13 PM
....its because youre a bad parent...period..

Not at all. If you raise 2 kids, 1 year apart and they live in the same house, same neighborhood, go to the same school and have the same circle of friends and you treat each child the same then you should end up with 2 similar children. You have nurturing and you have nature but the key element is the gene pool. I believe that some people are born with a "bad gene". These people are soulless. They have no conscience. In the example above, one kid could end up a prominent doctor and the other a serial killer. I believe it is as much, if not more, genetics than it is parenting.

How can a 5 or 6 year old kid who came from a "nice" family come to enjoy torturing cats and dogs? (A usual precursor to a serial killer). Not every kid who tortures animals ends up a serial killer but a serial killer probably had these sadistic tendencies. A good parent will pick up on these "different" actions but a child who is "born bad" is just that. He has a flawed gene.

I believe that the video games do not nurture sadistic or violent natures unless there is a genetic disposition to it to begin with. When I was growing up way back when, the 3 Stooges were supposed to turn us into slap-happy violent people. We all grew up watching John Wayne shooting Indian after Indian without a second thought, etc. We were supposed to be desensitized to violence from these old movies yet weren't unless we had a genetic disposition to enjoy violence as well as cruel and sadistic behavior. Parents can always blame themselves for a child gone bad but I feel the only thing they did that was "bad" was supply a bad gene from some distant relative we probably never knew about (because he was so bad). Yes, there are bad seeds and these kids grow up to shoot up schools, shopping malls or rob banks. If they were taught the business from their parents then that further shows what a bad seed and bad parenting can do to a child but what separates us from the most viscious animals is our conscience. Without a conscience we are no better than that shark in the water looking for his next meal. Nothing else matters... it is what they are. It's instinct.... it's genetic.

ForumSurfer
November 23, 2010, 03:54 PM
i honestly have a hard time believing that the parents of kids who go on mass shootings are parent of the year award material.

Most of the time this is true. I dated an aspiring defense attorney. Part of her courses dictated time spent...so she worked with "troubled (read:felonious)" youth. I had some real eye opening moments for myself when I worked with her. There were a few cases here and there where kids came from great homes, with involved parents...and yet the child struck out and committed felonious acts. It happens.

Back to the subject matter...

I'm the opposite. I started playing COD and others because I liked guns. I found out it was kind of fun. My bro-in-law, nephew and myself have a few showdowns every once in awhile. I also discovered that a game called Far Cry 2 let me play with several surplus rifles in an open, African enviroment. A great mindless shooter to pass a few spare moments and blow off some steam when I'm on the PC and studying, already. The weapons have the wrong names and they are accurate at way too far of a distance...but it's pretty good to pass a few minutes.

XxR3M0V3RxX
November 23, 2010, 07:55 PM
I love C.O.D. it allows me to own and shoot guns I would otherwise not be able to afford.

it allows me to run around and do stupid things without conciquence.

any sane person can see the difference between a conciquence free environment and real life.

violent people will do violent things. only someone who was already motivated to do so would use weapons in a criminal way, a video game won't change that.

the majority of people who play video games online do not become murderers. that's big evidance that debunks any game caused violance argument.

AS a side note the new COD black ops has a really nice sound on its sniper rifle (the L rifle) (sounds just like my mosin when I crank the bass on my subwoofer).

RimfireChris
November 24, 2010, 05:17 PM
I'm an avid gamer as well as a long time shooter, but for me it happened in reverse, as I didn't really pick up a controller until in my mid 20's, rather late in life in gamer terms. I think the people who've spoke of moderation are dead on. There's a proper place for everything. As far as do they hurt the 2A cause? I doubt it, at least very much anyway. If it wasn't games, it'd be something else, books movies, whatever.

I'm not a shrink, heck I'm not even a bartender, but from what I see, it seems like when someone commits a horrible act, people have a need to de-emphasize the human element, it had to be the book, movie, music, game, etc, because people are afraid to acknowledge that one person could do this to another, because if they could, what about my neighbor, son, brother, and so on? No, no, no, it had to be that evil outside influence that made them do it! If I don't partake of that influence and keep as many people as I can from that influence, then that could never happen in my little circle of the world!

Right?! :uhoh:

One-Time
November 24, 2010, 05:53 PM
Id say helps, a kid plays a certain gun in a game and often when he is old enough go buy an actual specimen or a semi auto copy

AIrsoft though seems to make them stupid and ill informed though LOL

MTMilitiaman
November 24, 2010, 06:04 PM
Okay so the first really popular FPS, and the one generally credited with creating or at least establishing the genre, is Wolfenstein and it was released in 1992. Shortly after, the early-to-mid-90s were riddled with DOOM, Duke Nukem, Half-Life, and Quake. Then you had the console games start taking over in the late-90s with games like GoldenEye, HALO, and Medal of Honor. And if you are among those that actually believe video games encourage or induce violent behavior among our youth, it's all been downhill from there folks. The games have just gotten more graphic and realistic.

Fortunately, as you can clearly see from the accompanying graph, violent crime among youths seems to follow rates of violent crime among adults, and has generally been going down since, get this, the early-90s:

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/offage.gif

Coincidence?

Probably. I don't think video games make much of a difference one way or another. I think genetics, esp as they apply to mental stability and health, parenting and upbringing, social class and economics, political atmosphere, and a bunch of other factors are probably more important. If video games influence someone one way or another, then they were probably already predisposed through genetics and upbringing, and I really believe that crime goes up across the board in times of civil unrest and in times of economic hardship. When people are poor and desperate, they make poor, desperate decisions. When people are angry, they are more prone to lash out in violence. I think it has very little to do with video games, movies, metal or hip hop, the Internet, or pretty much any other form of media.

You think cavemen sat around and debated whether drawing violent scenes on their cave walls was going to turn junior into a mass murderer?

Now for the OP, it's simple. The primary reason most antis give for infringing on our right to keep and bear arms is crime. With little to establish a link between video games and violent crime, there is likewise very little evidence to support FPS as being a hindrance to the 2nd Amendment.

o Unforgiven o
November 24, 2010, 07:00 PM
Let me start off by saying that I am 17 and play COD almost daily, that being said...

I think the only way that COD or the like would help would be to interest people who might otherwise have no experience with guns. That is all that it would do to help, and the huge number of "gun experts" on xbox live spreading false crap about the capabilities and legalities of the type of guns only furthers the stereotypes and rumors and is a negative thing.

MTMilitiaman
November 24, 2010, 07:19 PM
That's assuming people buy COD as reference material. I think most people, even most kids, understand that it is entertainment, not reference.

I can remember watching Commando as a kid and still being very much aware that I was watching a movie star pretend, not actually demonstrating the proper method to throw a tactical saw blade:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B5xEBASwgE

Likewise, when I got into FPS, around the time Golden Eye and Rainbow Six came out for the N64, I never consulted Rare for advice on how to drive a tank.

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