Why is .22 lr rimfire ammo considered dirty?


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waldonbuddy
July 4, 2010, 04:22 PM
I know by experience that it is, but what makes it more dirty than other ammo?

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bhk
July 4, 2010, 04:38 PM
For one thing, the bullets are lubed (even the copper-washed ammo had a thin laquer lube). This lube can build up in the chambers and does coat the barrel. On the 'up side,' this lube helps protect the bore from rust (reducing the need for constant barrel cleaning and oiling).

waldonbuddy
July 4, 2010, 05:04 PM
Good answer, thanks.

I was thinking maybe a slightly different mix of components or such.

9mmepiphany
July 4, 2010, 06:39 PM
nope just a mix of the soft lead and the external lube...probably doesn't help that it uses a heeled bullet either

wally
July 4, 2010, 06:49 PM
Much of the crud comes form the primer, and in .22LR the ratio of primer to powder is pretty high.

I shoot externally lubed hard cast lead bullets in 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP using Unique, considered a "dirty" powder, and they all stay cleaner than .22LR after 1000 rounds or so -- about the earliest I consider cleaning unless its a carry gun or one I plan to return to the safe for a long rest.

--wally.

azyogi
July 4, 2010, 06:50 PM
Some are dirtier than others, I've got some Russian steel case stuff that leaves a lot more soot and unburned powder than anything else I've ever shot.

Lee Roder
July 4, 2010, 08:54 PM
Dirty? I haven't cleaned my Marlin bolt action in over half a year (couple thousand rounds, bulk packs). My 357 revo I have to clean every range trip with my loads. That's "dirty"

Buck Snort
July 4, 2010, 09:50 PM
Maybe its the jokes they tell?:eek:

Gottahaveone
July 4, 2010, 10:12 PM
Maybe its the jokes they tell?

You beat mt to it :D

stinger 327
July 5, 2010, 12:27 AM
It can't be worse than the .223 PMC ammo that I shot 152 rounds through a Mini-14 and it took me 2 hours just on the barrel to get it clean.:eek::confused:

The Bushmaster
July 5, 2010, 11:13 AM
.22 ammunition dirty? Never noticed. I haven't cleaned my Winchester M290 in a couple of years of use and about 500 to 600 rounds. Doesn't look dirty. Maybe CCI Mini-Mags is just better .22 ammunition then the "junk" you are running through your .22 firearm.

Hatterasguy
July 5, 2010, 11:22 AM
Its not that dirty, I'm somewhere over 3k rounds of cheap bulk ammo through my 10/22 since its last cleaning. Still works good.:D

Wil Terry
July 5, 2010, 11:23 AM
CONSIDERED BY WHOM ??!!!
My MKII RUGER STANDARD has over 12,000 rounds through it as we speak. It was last cleaned at 2500 rounds. It is NOT all that dirty and is still going strong, hitting tin cans at 100 yards all day long with every kind of 22LR ammo I have shot in it.

bigfatdave
July 5, 2010, 11:41 AM
The action type matters as much as ammo selection, unless you're just talking about getting the bore dirty. If we're just discussing the bore, most .22LR guns will reach some state of filth in the bore which will be re-applied and wiped out at equilibrium by the passing rounds, I rarely run a brush through .22 bores and almost never run a metal brush through them, Otis-style patches do quite enough to clean the bores of most of my guns, rimfires in particular.

Now, regarding the action of the guns ...
Remember, if you have a closed chamber you will get FAR less crud in the works of the gun compared to a blowback. Un-delayed-blowback release more crud than a delayed-blowback as well.
The point is that casings exiting the chamber can still be releasing crap into the action, (after all they are rocketing their way out and combustion could still be occurring, plus they are getting soot knocked/flaked out of them) ... no matter how fast you can run a lever/bolt/break action gun you won't get the spread of contamination you do with a semiauto.

That said, I'm not too terribly worried about some rimfire crud in my guns. The benefits of shooting cheap rimfire far outweigh the labor of cleanings, and either way most guns average one cleaning per one or two range trips, just to keep the crud from building up in the action.

stinger 327
July 5, 2010, 01:17 PM
I guess it really depends on how many rounds you run through it whether it be 100 or 50 rounds and depending on caliber anything from a .45, .357 to a .22 LR or .22 Mag.

NMGonzo
July 5, 2010, 01:21 PM
I shot over 1000 rounds in my conversion ar and so far other than wiping the bolt down with a paper towel the thing keeps shooting good!

waldonbuddy
July 5, 2010, 04:20 PM
"Maybe CCI Mini-Mags is just better .22 ammunition then the "junk" you are running through your .22 firearm."

LOL.......thats funny since I shoot mostly CCI ammo.

Hell, I didn't think I would be stepping on anyone's toe's by asking this question. The subject of .22 ammo being considered "dirty" vs other ammo has came up on several different gun forums I have visited over the years.
Its not intended to be a put down of the .22 round at all. I think the lube and primer to powder ratio is the answer to my question, it makes sense when you think about it.

Also, it not a problem for my Rugar or any of the other .22's I've shot over the years.

Thanks for the replies.

The Bushmaster
July 5, 2010, 05:48 PM
Ooops...Sorry. It's just sooo many people waste their money on those 500 econo packs and expect them to preform as the "better" stuff. Besides my model 290 won't function on the cheap stuff.

Tallinar
July 5, 2010, 05:56 PM
Dirty or not, most .22 LR rifles and ammo are extremely forgiving. If it cycles and chambers, I'd shoot it.

sonier
July 5, 2010, 06:28 PM
yea my ruger is so dirty it scares me, i have decided not to clean it anymore till i get a new barrel lol

stinger 327
July 6, 2010, 04:38 AM
Is the brand made by Remington "Aguila" a dirty round at 1,750 fps?
Isnt' the CCI Stinger 1,640 fps a cleaner round to shoot?

MovedWest
July 6, 2010, 05:00 AM
Is the brand made by Remington "Aguila" a dirty round at 1,750 fps?
Isnt' the CCI Stinger 1,640 fps a cleaner round to shoot?

FWIW the Stinger's cycle better in my MkIII than the Aguila's. Should keep my super single six in the range rotation though. :)

-MW

stinger 327
July 6, 2010, 05:02 AM
FWIW the Stinger's cycle better in my MkIII than the Aguila's. Should keep my super single six in the range rotation though. :)

-MW
I do notice a slight more recoil with both Aguila HP and solid points rated at 1,750 vs. the CCI Stinger at 1,640 fps. What is the dirtiest .22 LR round to shoot and the cleanest one to shoot?

waldonbuddy
July 6, 2010, 07:26 PM
I wonder how the Aguila hyper velocity rounds have more velocity than the Stingers with the Stingers having just a bit more casing? I know they both are 30 grain bullets.

stinger 327
July 6, 2010, 07:33 PM
I wonder how the Aguila hyper velocity rounds have more velocity than the Stingers with the Stingers having just a bit more casing? I know they both are 30 grain bullets.
The Stingers whether segmented HP or regular HP are both rated at 1,640 and both are 32 grains.
The Aguilar is 30 grains in either HP or solid point.
I put both brands up next to each other and the casings both match on both.
The Aguilar bullet nose is a little smaller than the Stinger.

akadave
July 6, 2010, 07:44 PM
Its not the lube. Whe I shoot well lubed cast bullets in my larger calibers, my gun is easier to clean than if I shot jacketed bullets.

stinger 327
July 6, 2010, 07:50 PM
Its not the lube. Whe I shoot well lubed cast bullets in my larger calibers, my gun is easier to clean than if I shot jacketed bullets.
I shot 152 rounds of PMC .223 ammo and it took 2 hours to get that barrel clean:eek:
Is it dirty ammo or because it's a real hot load?:confused:

Hatterasguy
July 6, 2010, 09:52 PM
You cleaned your barrel to much.

stinger 327
July 7, 2010, 03:39 AM
You cleaned your barrel to much.
It was dirty so I used patches and a cooper b rush until it came clean. No black residue on patches. I have only shot this gun a few times this year and 0 times other years.

scythefwd
July 7, 2010, 03:45 AM
remington owns aguila? Aguila is good stuff, in general. It's all my grandpa would shoot out of his win 52. I don't think he ever cleaned that gun.

stinger 327
July 7, 2010, 04:18 AM
remington owns aguila? Aguila is good stuff, in general. It's all my grandpa would shoot out of his win 52. I don't think he ever cleaned that gun.
Isn't CCI better in that the rounds and casings appear to be more cleaner?
I know the Stinger CCI 32 grain .22 LR is rated at 1,640 fps. The 30 grain Aguilar in .22 LR is rated at 1,750 fps.

scythefwd
July 7, 2010, 05:05 AM
I'm not sure what you mean by appear to be cleaner. My aguila looks bright and shiney. My lead looks like lead.

The aguila is good stuff. I know that from experience. I don't think it is owned by remington though, but I have been wrong before. It doesn't seem any dirtier shooting than the rest of the match ammo I have played with.

PRM
July 7, 2010, 08:41 AM
Ooops...Sorry. It's just sooo many people waste their money on those 500 econo packs and expect them to preform as the "better" stuff. Besides my model 290 won't function on the cheap stuff. -TheBushmaster

Guess my Beretta 21 failed to get that memo. Most of what I run through it, is the cheap Walmart Federal bulk ammo. Never had a problem with function and it does not appear to be any dirtier than any other brands. I do clean my handgun after shooting ~ so between every 100 -200 rounds it gets cleaned. Not a lot of build up.

stinger 327
July 7, 2010, 03:09 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by appear to be cleaner. My aguila looks bright and shiney. My lead looks like lead.

The aguila is good stuff. I know that from experience. I don't think it is owned by remington though, but I have been wrong before. It doesn't seem any dirtier shooting than the rest of the match ammo I have played with.
I believe the Aguila is the fastest .22 LR bullet to date at 1,750 fps. They just don't look as nice and shiny as the CCI stinger.

scythefwd
July 7, 2010, 04:13 PM
it might not be a great idea to judge ammo based on how pretty it is.

stchman
July 7, 2010, 05:22 PM
I cannot believe some people don't clean their guns after shooting.

When I take my 10/22 out I usually shoot about 300-400 rounds. It is really dirty after that and gets cleaned.

I find it difficult to sleep in the house with a dirty gun in the safe.

stinger 327
July 7, 2010, 07:25 PM
I cannot believe some people don't clean their guns after shooting.

When I take my 10/22 out I usually shoot about 300-400 rounds. It is really dirty after that and gets cleaned.

I find it difficult to sleep in the house with a dirty gun in the safe.
Same thing here but thus far I only clean the barrel running down cooper brush and patches.
I did break the 10/22 successfully down once and the Mini-14 once and lost a spring on the Mini-14 :( (I don't think I want to do either again)
But at least I don't leave them totally dirty. I believe the Mini-14 was alot more dirty than the 10/22 if memory serves me correct on bad experience:(:(

stinger 327
July 7, 2010, 07:29 PM
it might not be a great idea to judge ammo based on how pretty it is.

The Aguila ammo advertises that it is Eley Primed whatever that means. It must be a good thing?:confused:
When I shoot this .30 grain Aguila hypervelocity 1,750 fps ammo I notice the powder charge smell is alot stronger than the CCI charge maybe even more smoke and of course more recoil than the .32 grain CCI .22 LR Stinger bullet 1,640 fps.

stinger 327
July 7, 2010, 07:30 PM
I cannot believe some people don't clean their guns after shooting.

When I take my 10/22 out I usually shoot about 300-400 rounds. It is really dirty after that and gets cleaned.

I find it difficult to sleep in the house with a dirty gun in the safe.
So after 400 rounds after shooting the 10/22 how long does it take for you to clean it and does that include breaking gun down, removing trigger guard etc?

Diggers
July 7, 2010, 07:55 PM
yeah .22 lr is dirty, as in it leaves alot of black stuff in the gun, HOWEVER, this does not seem to stop the gun from working.

I think one truth in the gun world is people have turned cleaning a gun into an icon of being gun savvy. :rolleyes:

Cleaning doesn't hurt but I'm sure most guns are waaaaay over cleaned if the purpose of cleaning is about function and rust prevention.

Which it seems its not. ;)

stinger 327
July 7, 2010, 08:00 PM
yeah .22 lr is dirty, as in it leaves alot of black stuff in the gun, HOWEVER, this does not seem to stop the gun from working.

I think one truth in the gun world is people have turned cleaning a gun into an icon of being gun savvy. :rolleyes:

Cleaning doesn't hurt but I'm sure most guns are waaaaay over cleaned if the purpose of cleaning is about function and rust prevention.

Which it seems its not. ;)
I have a NAA Mini-Master 5 shot revolver and it shoots both .22 LR and .22 WMR as it has 2 separate cylinders for this.
For some reason I notice I get alot more misfires on the .22 WMR than the .22LR even the pin that holds cylinder starts to come out after the first .22 WMR shot.
When there is a misfire I go onto the next shot and then it goes off (sometimes not) then back to the bullet that didn't fire and after a second strike it may go off. Strange:confused:
I keep it very clean

Diggers
July 7, 2010, 09:51 PM
I wonder if the cylinder is loose and moving around in there messing up the pin strike. I would have that looked at. :uhoh:

SlamFire1
July 7, 2010, 09:55 PM
Our club’s combined rifle and pistol match is in December. Sometimes it gets down right cold in December.

While rim fire automatics are perfectly functional in hot weather, when it gets cold, people get failures to feed or failures to eject. It is just wonderful when it happens to someone else, a bummer when it happens to you.

All blowbacks open up when there is residual pressure in the barrel. Some of the burnt/unburnt powder residue gets puffed back into the action. With rimfires, that residue includes wax vapor. When it is nice and cold, such as in December, that wax condenses with that residue and gums up the mechanism. Causing failures to extract or failures to feed.

For me to complete the December Bullseye match sequence, this pistol has to be kept clean and fired with ammo that is relatively clean.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Pistols%20various/RugerMark512withchinesesightDSCF101.jpg

stinger 327
July 7, 2010, 10:01 PM
Our club’s combined rifle and pistol match is in December. Sometimes it gets down right cold in December.

While rim fire automatics are perfectly functional in hot weather, when it gets cold, people get failures to feed or failures to eject. It is just wonderful when it happens to someone else, a bummer when it happens to you.

All blowbacks open up when there is residual pressure in the barrel. Some of the burnt/unburnt powder residue gets puffed back into the action. With rimfires, that residue includes wax vapor. When it is nice and cold, such as in December, that wax condenses with that residue and gums up the mechanism. Causing failures to extract or failures to feed.

For me to complete the December Bullseye match sequence, this pistol has to be kept clean and fired with ammo that is relatively clean.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Pistols%20various/RugerMark512withchinesesightDSCF101.jpg
Well that's the thing I don't like about rimfire bullets they aren't reliable but cheap to shoot all day.
I hear of people that say a .22 LR is better than no gun and ballistically better than a .25 ACP if it has to be a mouse gun better than no gun but the fact that there are misfires and there may be feeding problems with .22 LR, a .25 ACP is more reliable for the simple fact is that it is centerfire. At least with a revovler that shoots .22 LR you can pull the trigger again in hopes that the next bullet will go bang.

stinger 327
July 7, 2010, 10:02 PM
I wonder if the cylinder is loose and moving around in there messing up the pin strike. I would have that looked at. :uhoh:
Well this doesn't happen on the .22LR cylinder, only the .22WMR cyclinder and from what I can tell it's tight the cylinder that is.

Diggers
July 8, 2010, 01:46 AM
An issue with the WMR cylinder only perhaps? Maybe WMR are a bit tougher to set off then LRs and your pin is hitting a bit light?
What ever the reason, I think your gun should work better then it is.

A QUESTION FOR ALL

Its about the whole "rimfire is not reliable thus bad for SD" thing that comes up all the time.

What percent of .22lr ammo fails to fire because the ammo is bad. (Not due to a gun issue)

Has this been inflated into mythical proportions or is truly a real issue?

All ammo fails from time to time. I've had golden sabers in .40 fail to go bang and thats thought of as top shelf ammo. Though the percent that fails is well below 1%.

So what do you all think. Has anyone kept track of this when they have been out shooting?

stinger 327
July 8, 2010, 02:58 AM
An issue with the WMR cylinder only perhaps? Maybe WMR are a bit tougher to set off then LRs and your pin is hitting a bit light?
What ever the reason, I think your gun should work better then it is.

A QUESTION FOR ALL

Its about the whole "rimfire is not reliable thus bad for SD" thing that comes up all the time.

What percent of .22lr ammo fails to fire because the ammo is bad. (Not due to a gun issue)

Has this been inflated into mythical proportions or is truly a real issue?

All ammo fails from time to time. I've had golden sabers in .40 fail to go bang and thats thought of as top shelf ammo. Though the percent that fails is well below 1%.

So what do you all think. Has anyone kept track of this when they have been out shooting?
I don't get any misfires in 10/22 but do get them in the NAA mini revolver.

PRM
July 8, 2010, 10:09 PM
What percent of .22lr ammo fails to fire because the ammo is bad. (Not due to a gun issue)

Has this been inflated into mythical proportions or is truly a real issue?

All ammo fails from time to time. I've had golden sabers in .40 fail to go bang and thats thought of as top shelf ammo. Though the percent that fails is well below 1%. - Diggers

I take what I read on the internet for what it is. Mostly opinion, with little data to back up what the person posting says. My personal experience with .22 ammo has been good. Not any worse than any other caliber. I am certainly not going to get shed of some of my favorite guns because someone else writes that they have experienced problems. Got a Marlin .22, Remington Nylon 66, and a Beretta 21A, that all have more than proven themselves over the years.

stinger 327
July 9, 2010, 01:48 AM
I take what I read on the internet for what it is. Mostly opinion, with little data to back up what the person posting says. My personal experience with .22 ammo has been good. Not any worse than any other caliber. I am certainly not going to get shed of some of my favorite guns because someone else writes that they have experienced problems. Got a Marlin .22, Remington Nylon 66, and a Beretta 21A, that all have more than proven themselves over the years.

Got a Beretta Mod. 21:D

fireman 9731
July 9, 2010, 02:14 AM
My failure rate for 22 ammo seems low compared to some of the stories I've heard online.

Honestly I might get one dud in a 500 round bulk pack, if that. I have never had a dud using anything from CCI. And this is from probably around 25,000 rounds of 22 ammo through several different guns. Winchester, Federal, Remington, you name it.

I did have one bulk pack of Remington Golden Bullets several years ago that was honestly a dud in every magazine though.

I think that most 22 ammo problems are from light firing pin strikes.

Ben86
July 9, 2010, 02:25 AM
Compared to centerfire ammo, rimfire is dirty. It is a combination of dirty ignition primer, powder that is usual not fine grade stuff to say the least, bullet lube, lack of bullet jacketing, and gun designs that seem to trap crud in the action more readily than centerfire guns.

That said I hardly clean my .22s. Mainly because I don't depend on them for my safety, I shoot them more often than my centerfire guns, and they keep on going and ask for more no matter how I treat them. Gotta love em.

stinger 327
July 9, 2010, 02:31 AM
My failure rate for 22 ammo seems low compared to some of the stories I've heard online.

Honestly I might get one dud in a 500 round bulk pack, if that. I have never had a dud using anything from CCI. And this is from probably around 25,000 rounds of 22 ammo through several different guns. Winchester, Federal, Remington, you name it.

I did have one bulk pack of Remington Golden Bullets several years ago that was honestly a dud in every magazine though.

I think that most 22 ammo problems are from light firing pin strikes.
Using CCI Stingers and haven't had any problems with this ammo. Winchester jammed on me and Federal. Subsonic loads had a few but that is to be expected since they are low powered and might not fully eject shell.

fortyluv
July 9, 2010, 01:19 PM
I find it difficult to sleep in the house with a dirty gun in the safe.

LOL. Been a long time lurker. But I registered just to "ditto" the above comment.

stinger 327
July 9, 2010, 01:59 PM
I find it difficult to sleep in the house with a dirty gun in the safe.

LOL. Been a long time lurker. But I registered just to "ditto" the above comment.
:neener::D

scythefwd
July 12, 2010, 01:27 AM
Its about the whole "rimfire is not reliable thus bad for SD" thing that comes up all the time.

What percent of .22lr ammo fails to fire because the ammo is bad. (Not due to a gun issue)

Has this been inflated into mythical proportions or is truly a real issue?

All ammo fails from time to time. I've had golden sabers in .40 fail to go bang and thats thought of as top shelf ammo. Though the percent that fails is well below 1%.

So what do you all think. Has anyone kept track of this when they have been out shooting?

Diggers, it depends on the ammo. My Anschutz, hardly a cheaply built crap rifle, gets as high as 10% failure on some brands of ammo. I have noticed this more with cheap thunderbolts than with the aguila stuff I shoot (never 1 failure in this gun). On the other hand, my mossberg 44 hasn't had a misfire in as long as I can remember. Neither has my rough rider. Those get fed thunderbolts almost exclusively. I don't think it's a problem with the gun, but it could be a difference in the gun and how hard they strike.

As to people that clean their .22lr's every time they shoot..... go ahead if you want to. Just remember that there are benchrest shooters, and damn good ones at that, that never clean a .22 until the accuracy starts to drop off. These guys live for 1 hole groups that aren't ragged even.

stinger 327
July 12, 2010, 02:31 AM
Diggers, it depends on the ammo. My Anschutz, hardly a cheaply built crap rifle, gets as high as 10% failure on some brands of ammo. I have noticed this more with cheap thunderbolts than with the aguila stuff I shoot (never 1 failure in this gun). On the other hand, my mossberg 44 hasn't had a misfire in as long as I can remember. Neither has my rough rider. Those get fed thunderbolts almost exclusively. I don't think it's a problem with the gun, but it could be a difference in the gun and how hard they strike.

As to people that clean their .22lr's every time they shoot..... go ahead if you want to. Just remember that there are benchrest shooters, and damn good ones at that, that never clean a .22 until the accuracy starts to drop off. These guys live for 1 hole groups that aren't ragged even.
Who makes better .22 LR hypervelocity ammo CCI or Aguila?

scythefwd
July 12, 2010, 03:26 AM
Stinger - Honestly I wouldn't know. I avoid the hypervelocity stuff. I tend to stick to subsonics when I can find it around here. All of my .22lr's are bolt guns and I don't have to worry about it having enough umph to work the action. Speed isn't everything, though it is a necessary component of shooting. I'd recommend you find whatever works well in your gun(s) and shoot that without worrying about speed. Accuracy is worth worrying about, velocity... not so much when shooting paper.

Ben86
July 12, 2010, 01:38 PM
I also don't use hypervelocity much. There isn't much of a ballistic gain(especially with the super light bullets) and they accelerate wear and tear on your guns. My favorite is the CCI velociter. I like it because it uses a 40 bullet but still propels it to about 1435 fps out of a rifle. I have them as .22 premium cartridges that I would save if I was trying to stretch my .22s to their power limit if using them for SD(though I forbid that) or using them to hunt something that is a little too big for the caliber (I also forbid this under normal circumstances).

My favorite .22 loading is the federal hp bulk pack. I've had the least failures with those and they seem to be of better overall quality than the other bulk packs (bullets seated more firmly, better brass, more consistent powder, etc.)

stinger 327
July 12, 2010, 01:47 PM
I also don't use hypervelocity much. There isn't much of a ballistic gain(especially with the super light bullets) and they accelerate wear and tear on your guns. My favorite is the CCI velociter. I like it because it uses a 40 bullet but still propels it to about 1435 fps out of a rifle. I have them as .22 premium cartridges that I would save if I was trying to stretch my .22s to their power limit if using them for SD(though I forbid that) or using them to hunt something that is a little too big for the caliber (I also forbid this under normal circumstances).

My favorite .22 loading is the federal hp bulk pack. I've had the least failures with those and they seem to be of better overall quality than the other bulk packs (bullets seated more firmly, better brass, more consistent powder, etc.)
Using them for SD? What's SD?

Ben86
July 12, 2010, 04:39 PM
By SD I mean self defense. That's High Road short hand for you. ;)

stinger 327
July 13, 2010, 12:36 AM
Compared to centerfire ammo, rimfire is dirty. It is a combination of dirty ignition primer, powder that is usual not fine grade stuff to say the least, bullet lube, lack of bullet jacketing, and gun designs that seem to trap crud in the action more readily than centerfire guns.

That said I hardly clean my .22s. Mainly because I don't depend on them for my safety, I shoot them more often than my centerfire guns, and they keep on going and ask for more no matter how I treat them. Gotta love em.
Well .22 LR's are fun to shoot as long as you don't get alot of misfires and you get to choose from a whole variety of different kinds of .22 LR ammo. It won't cost a fortune to shoot .22 LR's all day.

stinger 327
July 13, 2010, 12:41 AM
By SD I mean self defense. That's High Road short hand for you. ;)
Well for self-defense if it has to be a mouse gun better than no gun a .25 ACP centerfire is much more reliable. But If you had to use a .22 LR North American Arms has those Mini Revolvers and those are quality made pieces that are easy to carry. At least with the revolver design if the .22 bullet doesn't ignite you just keep pulling the trigger until the next round goes of. instead of having the auto jam and having to clear that then it's too late.

I would use the highest velocity .22 LR I could fine which at the time is Aguilar in hollow point or solid point at 1,750 but of course it would be less in these mouse barrels. But I have seen what one of these NAA mini revolvers can do using an old .22 LR. 32 grain stinger HP and it's pretty devistating considering the size of the gun and is something you can ALWAYS easily carry with you. The bullet went through two of those work horse items they use on the road with a light on top-I don't know what you call them but the stinger went through both sides had that been someone's face:eek::uhoh:

Also I notice now that CCI is making the Stinger now in segmented HP32 grains where it is suppose to break up into three pieces. Before it was just a .32 grain HP single bullet. But this makes me wonder if they changed packaging (Marketing product different now?) because back in 1999 CCI was making a bullet that does the same thing break up into 3 pieces and they called it Qwik Shok in an orange/red box of 50. Now I do not see that packaging any more but the shell casings of this bullet are still gold in color like the original Qwik Shok were wheras I believe the segmented .22 LR from CCI is gold in color. The other stinger is still silver in color-the casing that is.

Ben86
July 13, 2010, 01:40 AM
If I had to use a .22lr for SD it would preferably be out of a rifle, not out of a tiny handgun. I've tested hollow points out of my .22 handguns and none of them even expand at all, even CCI. But they do penetrate enough so they are usable I guess if I had to for some inconceivable reason. Out of a rifle they aren't so bad, and expand pretty reliably.

I've seen a lot of ammo designs come and go with the market trends.

stinger 327
July 13, 2010, 02:11 AM
If I had to use a .22lr for SD it would preferably be out of a rifle, not out of a tiny handgun. I've tested hollow points out of my .22 handguns and none of them even expand at all, even CCI. But they do penetrate enough so they are usable I guess if I had to for some inconceivable reason. Out of a rifle they aren't so bad, and expand pretty reliably.

I've seen a lot of ammo designs come and go with the market trends.
I agree rifle is better but if you didn't have that option what would be the next ideal instrument in .22 LR?

bigfatdave
July 13, 2010, 03:09 AM
carbine, followed by a really long pistol

stinger 327
July 13, 2010, 11:50 AM
carbine, followed by a really long pistol
If you ended up with pistol which .22 LR would be your preference?

bigfatdave
July 13, 2010, 02:51 PM
If you ended up with pistol which .22 LR would be your preference? Do I have to conceal it?
Because if not I'm taking the one I shoot best and ballistics be damned - a tinkered-with Ruger mkIII with a 5.5" bull barrel, I can hit a tennis ball 9/10 times at 20 yards as it swings about on the string, I figure I can hit most moving targets at similar ranges too. Load that up with the hottest stuff that will function reliably and it is about 59,237 times better than no gun at all.

If I had to conceal, probably my Walther/Umarex p22 loaded up with something hotter than my plinking ammo, stingers or velocitors most likely, reliability testing and the tweaks from the p22 bible over on rimfirecentral would be in order ... I can't do the tennis ball trick with that one, but as a get off me gun it is about 30,106 times better than no gun.

That assumes no conversion kits for my existing carry guns, of course ... but realistically I have guns far more appropriate to carry or self defense, Three of them dedicated carry guns with the appropriate gear.
One of them is smaller than the p22, another is the same size with a better grip, and the last is still easily concealable.
With a KT p32, A Walther PPS, and a Citadel officer's size 1911, I don't see why in the world I'd be packing a rimfire for self-defense, unless I was forced to the NAA mini-revolver (which is a filthy mess to clean up after shooting, to address the OP) which is barely smaller than the p32 and only a bit more concealable.

stinger 327
July 13, 2010, 03:45 PM
Do I have to conceal it?
Because if not I'm taking the one I shoot best and ballistics be damned - a tinkered-with Ruger mkIII with a 5.5" bull barrel, I can hit a tennis ball 9/10 times at 20 yards as it swings about on the string, I figure I can hit most moving targets at similar ranges too. Load that up with the hottest stuff that will function reliably and it is about 59,237 times better than no gun at all.

If I had to conceal, probably my Walther/Umarex p22 loaded up with something hotter than my plinking ammo, stingers or velocitors most likely, reliability testing and the tweaks from the p22 bible over on rimfirecentral would be in order ... I can't do the tennis ball trick with that one, but as a get off me gun it is about 30,106 times better than no gun.

That assumes no conversion kits for my existing carry guns, of course ... but realistically I have guns far more appropriate to carry or self defense, Three of them dedicated carry guns with the appropriate gear.
One of them is smaller than the p22, another is the same size with a better grip, and the last is still easily concealable.
With a KT p32, A Walther PPS, and a Citadel officer's size 1911, I don't see why in the world I'd be packing a rimfire for self-defense, unless I was forced to the NAA mini-revolver (which is a filthy mess to clean up after shooting, to address the OP) which is barely smaller than the p32 and only a bit more concealable.
Yes this would involve conceal carry. So no rifle. What is the specs. on velocitors? Is that a CCI round? P.22 who makes that any pics? I know what the Ruger MKIII looks like but the Walther and others I haven't seen or know what they look like.

bigfatdave
July 13, 2010, 04:00 PM
Walther p22 (http://tinyurl.com/259ds8y)
http://www.tonyrogers.com/weapons/images/walther_p22_left_300px.jpg

CCI Velocitor (http://tinyurl.com/36smj7d)
http://www.cci-ammunition.com/images/2006/22-velocitor.jpg

Still doesn't change the fact that I can't imagine moving down to a .22 for carry, target guns are too big and the tiny .22 guns aren't reliable enough in most cases, and I've got centerfire pistols stocked for the express purpose of having portable defensive handguns.
The only time I would carry a .22 would be for small game, and it would be the mkIII, probably carried openly or under a jacket, I can't imagine that gun going IWB.

Of course, if Kel Tec ever gets their PMR30 out (http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/pmr30.htm), that would change everything ... I'll be picking up one of those the moment KT makes a matching carbine and/or a .22LR conversion, or maybe just because I want one - 30 rounds of .22magnum in a flush-fit magazine are nothing to laugh at, and the thing might be thin enough for me to carry, even.
http://olegvolk.net/gallery/d/35729-2/keltec+PMR30+handout+v3-2.jpg
But it is the size of a large duty pistol, hardly a mousegun regardless of caliber.

stinger 327
July 13, 2010, 04:42 PM
Walther p22 (http://tinyurl.com/259ds8y)
http://www.tonyrogers.com/weapons/images/walther_p22_left_300px.jpg

CCI Velocitor (http://tinyurl.com/36smj7d)
http://www.cci-ammunition.com/images/2006/22-velocitor.jpg

Still doesn't change the fact that I can't imagine moving down to a .22 for carry, target guns are too big and the tiny .22 guns aren't reliable enough in most cases, and I've got centerfire pistols stocked for the express purpose of having portable defensive handguns.
The only time I would carry a .22 would be for small game, and it would be the mkIII, probably carried openly or under a jacket, I can't imagine that gun going IWB.

Of course, if Kel Tec ever gets their PMR30 out (http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/pmr30.htm), that would change everything ... I'll be picking up one of those the moment KT makes a matching carbine and/or a .22LR conversion, or maybe just because I want one - 30 rounds of .22magnum in a flush-fit magazine are nothing to laugh at, and the thing might be thin enough for me to carry, even.
http://olegvolk.net/gallery/d/35729-2/keltec+PMR30+handout+v3-2.jpg
But it is the size of a large duty pistol, hardly a mousegun regardless of caliber.
I have never tried the Velocitor. Aguila has one in that 1,400 fps but I don't know if it is a 40 grain. I believe it is at 1,470 fps?
Winchester has a Super X brand one at 37 grains at 1330 and a 40 grain at 1330.

Winchester has a 1,600+ but it's 26 grains now that a first for me that light and almost as fast as the Stinger HP at 1,640 or the Stinger segmented HP at 1,640.
Yellow Jackets are hot somewhere in the 1,500 fps range but arent' 40 grains.

That Kel Tec .22 WMR pistol looks nice and not a bad price. I have a NAA Mini Master revolver 4 inch that shoots both .22 LR and .22 Mag but when I use the .22 Mag the pin to the cylinder becomes loose so I have to push it in after every shot and the capacity is 5 shots. I also get more misfires for some reason when I use the .22 MAG cyclinder and hardly any in the .22 LR cylinder.

The Walter I have never seen or heard anything about that pistol.

bigfatdave
July 13, 2010, 06:22 PM
I have a NAA Mini Master revolver 4 inch that shoots both .22 LR and .22 Mag but when I use the .22 Mag the pin to the cylinder becomes loose so I have to push it in after every shot and the capacity is 5 shots. I also get more misfires for some reason when I use the .22 MAG cyclinder and hardly any in the .22 LR cylinder. You should call NAA about that, I've heard good things about their customer service.

stinger 327
July 14, 2010, 11:23 AM
You should call NAA about that, I've heard good things about their customer service.
I just might do that.

Ben86
July 14, 2010, 12:58 PM
I agree rifle is better but if you didn't have that option what would be the next ideal instrument in .22 LR?

That would be my ruger 22/45.

If I had to conceal it I'd wear it in a shoulder holster. If I needed something smaller I'm not sure what I'd go with. I haven't put much thought into this, as I never expect to be in that situation. Maybe a berreta jetfire? I dunno.

stinger 327
July 14, 2010, 03:25 PM
That would be my ruger 22/45.

If I had to conceal it I'd wear it in a shoulder holster. If I needed something smaller I'm not sure what I'd go with. I haven't put much thought into this, as I never expect to be in that situation. Maybe a berreta jetfire? I dunno.
Yes a Beretta Jetfire Mod. 20

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