[shibby]

I would like to get good at double taps before I get into training courses and competition shooting. I assume that before you get good with technique you first have to get used to the quick trigger pulls and feeling the recoil, etc.

Ive increased accuracy from 1 shot hitting the target to 2 shots hitting a decent sized area on target, but I would like to refine my technique.

Any good how-to videos or less so, links?

Obviously I dont want something from that youtube guy prancing about shooting the paper bag 1 foot infront of him, but something from someone with good reputation.

[Jim Watson]

Do not try to "get good" BEFORE training.
You run the risk of giving your instructor another bad habit to break.

[FatPants]

Accuracy first, speed second.

[ArchAngelCD]

I agree, accuracy first and speed second. Practice good shooting technique and the more you shoot the faster you will get.

[David E]

I would like to get good at double taps before I get into training courses

You'd save time, ammo and frustration if you took the appropriate class FIRST.

They'll discuss the proper technique needed to achieve fast, accurate hits. (and you should see the sight for each shot)

[papa_bear]

+1 take a course first

Do not try to "get good" BEFORE training.
You run the risk of giving your instructor another bad habit to break.

[9mmepiphany]

after taking a good shooting course, you won't have to work on double-taps at all...because you'll find that no responsible trainer teaches, advocates or approves of them

the belief that you could place 2 accurate shots on target, with one sight picture, before the gun rose in recoil has pretty much gone the way of 1) the finger on the front of the trigger guard, 2) the belief that you could hold the gun down from recoil with sheer muscle and 3) the belief that you couldn't hit with a DA first shot in a DA/SA pistol

[Drail]

You need to work on the accuracy part. Diligently. The speed part will come all by itself with little or no concious effort on your part. You can't stop it. A double tap IS simply two seperate shots fired quickly. Two sight pictures and watching the front sight lift and settle back exactly where it was. But don't try for fast double taps until you can fire individual shots accurately every time. Concentrate on placing each shot precisely where it needs to go. Learn to call the shot based on what you saw from the sight picture before you see the bullet hole and before the gun comes back down from lifting. I've seen an awful lot of IPSC/steel shooters who could shoot very fast but without the accuracy that is necessary to get good scores. I used to be one of those guys. A good read on this is Brian Enos' book "Practical Shooting".

[Averageman]

I think a good .22 would be a great practicle gun to practise with.
As lots of people here mention, just go slow and take your time maybe use some day glo target dots to help you pick up your aim point as you shift up and down.
Read, read , read up on the drill and you'll do fine.

[Jim Watson]

I think a good .22 would be a great practicle gun to practise with

Yes, but not double taps. Shooting a .22 fast will give you funny ideas about recoil control that will not work with a centerfire. I usually start a practice session with some .22s but I use two targets and after some draws to the first shot, go to doing transitions back and forth.

[atblis]

It's mostly a timing thing. You have the timing between trigger pulls such that the second round is fired when the gun has settled back to the same point of aim (same sight picture). You can adjust/tune this timing with different ammo/loads and springs (also mass and other things affect this too). This tuning is for advanced shooters. I wouldn't recommend heading down this path just yet. A good trigger is very beneficial to everyone. As mentioned above, there's not trick to it, it's just firing two aimed shots fast and practicing it to the point where it becomes reflexive.

Basically just practice shooting fast and accurate.

One thing I've found that works for pretty much for all shooting sports is mental imaging. Picture the sights and imagine the gun firing. Even think or say "pop pop" for your double tap while picturing the gun recoiling and then settling back down. Sight picture on target, pop, gun recoils, sights settle back on target, good sight picture, pop. Shotgun shooters do this, and I am sure pistol shooters do it too. It's something you can do before shooting a stage. You'll see some shooters even pantomime the stage before shooting it.

[yeti]

I like the term "double top,":) it just sounds so tactical :scrutiny:, but it does tend to distort what we are looking for in a 'double tap.' If you think of it as a 'controlled pair' you are starting off in the correct frame of mind.:cool:

[irishelcid]

alright I'll be the one to say it. Just kind of an anal thing drilled into us by our firearms instructor, but apparently it isn't PC to call them double taps. THe new term is "committed pairs"

[Sam Cade]

A video is worth..dunno...maybe 10,000 words?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wbg2s2bfjhw

[Averageman]

Jim, thats a cool idea and I am sure effective.
The reason I prefer a .22 is the lack of recoil. The transition from bottom to top is easily explained and the lack of recoil allows for a slow and easy transition in sight picture.
The recoil issue is addressed way before we go to double taps. Wth lots of range time with both revolvers and auto's of various calibers people tend to naturally point shoot.
I usually teach a new shooter with a Ruger Mark II initally; we then transition slowly to .38 cal revolvers. From there dependant on the carry gun, a 1911 or .357.
By taking my time with new shooters and laying a firm foundation based on safety and slow accurate fire,double taps with a handgun are as easy as doubles with a shotgun.

[FTSESQ]

Focus on accuracy first. Also, breaking a bad habit is 10 times harder than learning correctly in the first place. I can under stand that you don't want to be the guy in the class who doesn't know what he doing, but trust me, any instructor worth his salt isn't going to harp on you or make fun of you or make you wear a dunce cap or anything. They will help you learn correctly, remember you paid for this class, its not basic training. No one is going to yell at you.

The one thing that you can do that will help is dry fire. A lot. it will make any flinch or incorrect trigger pull very obvious. Then try it with an empty shell case balanced balanced on your slide or front sight. Also, when pulling the trigger pay attention and see if your other fingers move when your trigger finger moves. This is very common. I did it a lot, but with just a little dry fire practice I'm basically cured. Another favorite training aid is have some one else load your mag (or cylinders) for you and have them randomly mix in a snap-cap or two. This will do two things. First, any finch will be instantly seen (it can be pretty dramatic), and second, you see what its like when you pull the trigger and she don't go boom, and you have to do a FTF drill. Unless you are shooting a revolver... then you just pull the trigger again.

[9x45]

double tapping is just ripping off 2 rounds quick as you can, not to be confused with a 'double' which is 2 holes touching. In competition there is no such thing as a 'long' picture, when you see brown, burn it down. Of course A's are better than C/D's and mikes, but that's what separates the Grand Masters from everyone else. Speed kills, grip it and rip it.

[DFW1911]

Accuracy first, speed second.

Great advice. Speed will come with time.

Make sure you keep your priorities straight: learn to hit what you're aiming at with your first shot...the second, or double, will develop over time with instruction and practice.

[David E]

double tapping is just ripping off 2 rounds quick as you can,

This definition, as it stands, is incorrect.

A "double tap" is two rounds fired, on target, on purpose, quickly. A sight picture is seen and utilized for each shot.

Let's say we're shooting an IPSC target at 7 yds. We'll define "quickly" as the second shot coming in no later than 1/2 second from the first shot, altho 1/3 of a second or faster is a better time frame for this distance.

The true "double tap" is still a viable tactic for defensive shooting.

[BCRider]

I'm a huge fan of .22 for practicing hand gun shooting for a lot of troubles but not for this aspect. As mentioned, working on double taps with a .22 will mostly get you ready for shooting a .22 in competition. Not something that applies to IPSC or IDPA. There will be some small amount of the same skill gained. But the amount that will transition to the heavier recoil center fire guns is minimal and the rest would be highly misleading.

If you're taking a course that is specific to the skills of competition shooting then I agree that you should just bide your time. But I know that being human means that you won't be able to avoid the urge to try it. So since I know that you're going to try doing it anyway here's a couple of links below that describe and show a really good gun grip style that will greatly aid in getting the sight picture back for your second shot. And at this point a skill that would be valuable is a good full contact and natural grip on your gun. From there work on one good sight picture and then a second quick one on the recoil return. Your second picture won't be as stable but the key is to get it to where the sight picture will still get you a good chance of an Alpha even though your arm is still moving around a little from the first recoil.

And it's best to work on accuracy both in your gun handling and movement first and let the speed come naturally. You want to strive to push yourself for more speed each time out. But the quest for speed as a new sport shooter should be secondary to safety practices, gun handling during a stage, movement between shooting locations in a stage and accuracy in that order. The reason being is that a lack of accuracy or speed will just get you a low score. But that's something you can work on with time. But poor performance in those other things will earn you a mess of DQ's. And that's far more damaging than a low score when you're starting out.

But even down in the lower ranks with the masses competition shooting is one HELLUVA lot of fun as well as being a skill that will make you a better shooter in any other scenario.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/combatg_100306/

Todd Jarret in a trailer for a video on pistol gripping and shooting. Lots of good hints.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

[nitetrane98]

IMO the concept of accuracy first and the speed will come is baloney. The speed will not come by itself . You have to try to shoot faster. Obviosly if you can't hit slow you probably can't hit fast. Uncontrolled DTs are worthless. Anybody can pull the trigger as fast as they can. If you're trying to put two rounds on target as fast as possible then you will have to practice that. You will reach a point, with a given gun. where you simply cannot go any faster. You will not find that point by simply shooting for accuracy and letting the speed come later. It's about learning the rhythm of the recoil and the trigger reset. I believe it's a timing issue.

[Averageman]

As mentioned, working on double taps with a .22 will mostly get you ready for shooting a .22 in competition. Not something that applies to IPSC or IDPA. There will be some small amount of the same skill gained. But the amount that will transition to the heavier recoil center fire guns is minimal and the rest would be highly misleading.
I'm sure your experiance is different than mine then.
I have found that sound training from .22 forward to the service, carry, or HD sidearm that the student will use is essential.
Recoil is what it is, the basics of safety and realigning sights between shots is true no matter what sidearm is used. The .22 just allows us to use a less expenisive and more learning friendly caliber as a foundation for training.
All things being equal, just isn't true with handguns and students learning handguns.
I have taught E.R. Nurses who were very gun shy (anti gun??) initally to double tap with accuracy and without hesitation with a 1911; but the key was a confort zone to work in. That comfort zone was achieved with a .22.
I have also spent a lot of time training military personel to shoot everything from the 9mm Berretta to the M1A2 SEP MBT. I have consistantly had better results using low caliber weapons and slowly teaching fundamentles as we go.
Your Milage may very well very.

[9mmepiphany]

posted by nitetrane98
IMO the concept of accuracy first and the speed will come is baloney. The speed will not come by itself . You have to try to shoot faster. Obviosly if you can't hit slow you probably can't hit fast. Uncontrolled DTs are worthless. Anybody can pull the trigger as fast as they can. If you're trying to put two rounds on target as fast as possible then you will have to practice that. You will reach a point, with a given gun. where you simply cannot go any faster. You will not find that point by simply shooting for accuracy and letting the speed come later. It's about learning the rhythm of the recoil and the trigger reset. I believe it's a timing issue.

i'll offer that you don't completely understand the concept behind shooting accurately at speeds in the neighborhood of 4-5 rounds per second

what limits the speed you can accurately place shots on target is how fast you can see your sights returning onto target, how fast you have trained yourself to react to that "cue" to press the trigger enough to release the sear and how fast you can reset the trigger and re-apply pressure. this is learned by being able to place a single shot accurately when you see your aligned sights on the target...trigger management is everything

the mantra is: Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast

[jeepmor]

Where's my popcorn, this is getting good.

[Dannix]

I would submit to you that a double tap is simply two well placed shots -- and you don't stop at two unless the situation is cold. How many rounds are in your mag? You want to be able to do an umpteen tap i.e. your whole mag.

It's all about proper stance, proper grip, proper trigger pull. If your umpteen tap is 1-round every 5 seconds, OK. Speed will come in do time. This isn't the movies. If you push for speed when you don't have the foundation for it, you'll hit other than what you're aiming at.

Oh, and dry firing is your friend.

Edit: You may find the Todd Jarrett videos on youtube helpful. :)

[nitetrane98]

i'll offer that you don't completely understand the concept behind shooting accurately at speeds in the neighborhood of 4-5 rounds per second

I'll offer that we are likely talking about different things. If you're waiting for the sights to appear on target and your brain to say, "Squeeze". I say you're backing up. Average human reaction time is around .25 seconds sight to finger. To bring god into the conversation, Jerry Miculek can empty a 6 shooter into a playing card in about .57 seconds. He may very well be a reaction time freak of nature, but I doubt that he is double the human average faster. That would tell me he's not likely waiting to see the front sight on the target. He knows where the sights are going to be by the time the hammer falls again.

A body can practice slowly and accurately all they want, sooner or later you've got to put it all together and move your finger fast too.

[9mmepiphany]

Jerry Miculek can empty a 6 shooter into a playing card in about .57 seconds. He may very well be a reaction time freak of nature, but I doubt that he is double the human average faster. That would tell me he's not likely waiting to see the front sight on the target. He knows where the sights are going to be by the time the hammer falls again.


what you've presented is a parlor trick...much like cutting cards edgewise or splitting a bullet on a knife/axe....and he does know where his sights are going to be. he teaches that, when shooting a DA revolver, your finger works the trigger as fast as it can and your job is to get the sights onto the target before the hammer falls. i've seen Miculek shoot, he can move his finger at an unbelievable rate...we think he's has his tendons shortened ;)

DA/SA or SAO pistols are shot the opposite way. you reset the trigger in recoil, take up the slack and prep the trigger so that it is ready for the final press when your subconscious sees the sights re-appear on the target. you're not reacting to the sights on target before starting your press, the shot is broken as soon as your sights appear...so your splits are measured by how fast your gun returns to battery and how fine a sight picture you are willing to accept. (depending on how discreet your target is)

i'm sorry if i wasn't clear before. i think what you took from what i posted was that i was waiting for the sights to come onto target, recognizing them as being properly aligned, deciding to squeeze, sending the message to my finger and then squeezing.

[9x45]

David E, This definition, as it stands, is incorrect. A "double tap" is two rounds fired, on target, on purpose, quickly.

Yes, if you are running .15 splits, than it doesn't much matter what you call it.

[Markopolo]

I would like to get good at double taps before I get into training courses and competition shooting. I assume that before you get good with technique you first have to get used to the quick trigger pulls and feeling the recoil, etc.

Ive increased accuracy from 1 shot hitting the target to 2 shots hitting a decent sized area on target, but I would like to refine my technique.

Any good how-to videos or less so, links?

Obviously I dont want something from that youtube guy prancing about shooting the paper bag 1 foot infront of him, but something from someone with good reputation.
First, the stance, use a weaver stance because you'll need to project your body towards your target ( forget you have a pistol think a sword).
Second your weak hand should embrace your strong hand firmly
third, the shooting, a double tap is a premeditated move to assure a quick delivery, like a sucker punch, so here we go:
Count in your mind,
ONE! your weapon on a rest position right in front of you, pointing down,
TWO! raise your weapon fast and acquire the target,
THREE! as fast as you can press the trigger twice. Usually the second shot falls at the two O'clock position after the first one, after about ten times doing this, you start feeling a natural movement to it.
Keep in mind in most ranges there is a two second rule

[SIGLBER]

Just a thought. I wouldn't train for just a double tap. I would alter from double to triple to a whole mag. You fight like you have trained. Their have been instance in which LEO's trained this way fired their weapon using a double tap then holstered the gun. Only problem is the bad guy was still up. In Iraq a number of Iraq police were double tapping suicide bomers with their Glock 19's and the terrorists were still up long enough to set their bombs off. The training now is "burn em to the ground". It's the best chance you've got with a handgun.

[HighExpert]

Practice slow and evenly timed shots with a half-size sillouette. Try to shoot groups in each quadrant. You will get faster with time. In the mean time, the first shot will be doing the job if you need it in the real world. I have practiced double lung-head for years. Am I fast? Faster than I used to be and accurate. BTW, for the guy who doesn't think you can control recoil for a second and third shot, I invite him to go watch a good bowling pin match. I watched a fellow who was really good at it shoot and knock down 6 pins in 2.1 seconds 5 times in a row one night. Made a believer out of me and i decided that I needed to find another discipline if I wanted to win. Good Shooting.

[9mmepiphany]

BTW, for the guy who doesn't think you can control recoil for a second and third shot, I invite him to go watch a good bowling pin match. I watched a fellow who was really good at it shoot and knock down 6 pins in 2.1 seconds 5 times in a row one night.

if that was directed toward me, it isn't what i posted. i posted that people incorrectly believed that you could control the recoil of a gun by holding the gun down between shots.

your "pin shooter" isn't holding the gun down, they are allowing it to rise in recoil and firing their next shot as the sights come back down onto target. shooting this way, .20-.25 sec splits (time between shots) are pretty much the norm...that's 4-5 shots per sec, 6 shots in 1.2-1.5 sec

[oldfool]

+5
posts #9, #22, #23, #27, and #32

(I just thought it would fun to agree with some people for a change, and I do, because that is exactly how it is done)

although you really cannot work on only speed or only on accuracy (it is interactive), you do have to get accurate enough 1st to put your rounds into acceptable target size at chosen distances, then you pick up the pace, so long as still hitting acceptable groups, and you always have a sight picture, even though it does become "sub-conscious", not an independent and discrete step

and if you pump enough rounds out of same frame/size/weight clone guns in whatever mix of calibers, caliber induced "recoil" ceases to be a factor
if you notice 'recoil' at all, you are not there yet, not focused
but you do need to mix them up, you cannot shoot rimfire only, and expect seamless transition to centerfire
and it is not a great notion to practice one and only one thing, to the exclusion of all others... mix it up a bit, unless your sole interest is timed competition shooting
(and have some fun whilst doing it; serious matters will come your way soon enough, invited or not, but "training" can be fun too, and if it is, you will get better faster, than if it is not)

PS
professional training purely optional
those guys gotta' feed their families too
but long before the internet, there was no shortage of people who learned how to shoot guns real well
(and not all professional trainers always agree 100% with one another, either, for those who have not noticed)

PPS
I really should have said I agree with at least 90% of the posts here, whatever misunderstood points some may disagree with one another about
but above all else.... "trigger management is everything"
the very best of advice usually comes packaged in very few words, and that is a 1st class example