"Rapid fire" rules at ranges


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mlaustin
July 6, 2010, 01:20 AM
How many of you go to ranges that have rules regarding frequency of shots? Where I am in California I've only been to one range that allowed controlled pairs of shots and that was an expensive indoor range. I assumed this was standard, but I just got back from a 3 week trip to NH visiting relatives and went to two ranges there and both had a "As long as you are controlling where your shots go, fire as fast as you like" rule.

Are these rules common or uncommon based on your experience? For any of you that work at ranges or are rangemasters...why? What is the advantage of such rules over just yelling at people who are firing out of control without aiming (in my experience they're quite easy to identify...)?

It's somewhat irking to me because I primarily shoot pistols and I've yet to hear of a bad guy or an IDPA match where shooting 1 shot every 2 seconds is the norm and it bothers me that I'm not permitted to practice the way I would shoot in the real world... I can understand not allowing drawing from the holster because of fears that inexperienced/idiot shooters would sweep people with their muzzles, but I never understood the shot timing.

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Rail Driver
July 6, 2010, 01:22 AM
I think at outdoor ranges it's there to keep rounds from going over the berm due to muzzle climb... Same for indoor ranges, except replace "going over the berm" with "putting out lights and damaging ceiling and target hangers"

Broken11b
July 6, 2010, 01:38 AM
I've seen alot of ranges with that rule, but I've also found that if you just explain to the manager that you want to practice controlled pairs, most of the time, their cool with it.
Other places wont budge on the issue, but if you dont ask, then you'll never know.

The guy there might just say "YOU can go for it, that rule is to stop idiots from slide locking into the ceiling"

fireman 9731
July 6, 2010, 02:12 AM
My range's official rule is not to shoot faster than one round per second. But as long as you are controlling your gun nobody ever says anything.

konfederate.kowboy
July 6, 2010, 02:18 AM
In texas at all three of the ranges I have been to they are extremely strict on this rule. I have been asked to leave one range because of rules like this. In florence I was told that I was not allowed to have my gun holstered while on the property. And was told I could not draw and fire. As well as double tapping. But since I have been in alaska the range I have been going to says you are allowed to use "short controlled burst"

GraceOutcast
July 6, 2010, 02:23 AM
At my range they rent full autos. :)

So as long as you are bring safe...you can do whatever you want

dmancornell
July 6, 2010, 02:30 AM
My range states 2 shots per second, but in the action/IPSC range, the unofficial rule is controlled shots only.

russ69
July 6, 2010, 02:36 AM
In NRA bullseye shooting rapid fire is 5 shots in 10 seconds, so if you let the first one go at the buzzer you have 9.5 seconds for the remaining 4 shots. That's a lot of time and a fairly slow pace. So for most old timers running ranges they don't see a need for anything faster. It's old school rules.
I see so many guys who are able to just barely hit the target frame from 7 yards that maybe it's a good rule for the general public. You can practice your double taps in a match.

Thanx, Russ

CraigC
July 6, 2010, 03:46 AM
It depends on how often they have to replace ceiling tiles because dummies shoot them up with uncontrolled rapid fire action. I worked at a gun shop with a range for a while. We had to keep a pile of extra ceiling tiles and flourescent bulbs to replace the ones that would get shot up.

9mmepiphany
July 6, 2010, 04:23 AM
well, i'm just a little East of you and i shoot at SacValley in Ione.

as a member, i have access to the private ranges where we can shoot at speed and on the move as well as practice drawing from the holster. it's the best place to take a student an work with them away from other shooters.

is there a limit to the speed you can fire at Yolo Sportsmans

coloradokevin
July 6, 2010, 04:38 AM
I really hate ranges with rules that prevent effective practical pistol shooting (whether that means no holster draws, or slow-fire only). While I think it is completely reasonable to demand controlled firing from users of any range, I don't like the idea of taking unnatural pauses between my shots as a means of providing a "floatation device" for unsafe shooters. Why not just boot the unsafe shooters instead?

In the past I've shot at ranges where the rule was listed only as "no rapid fire". I can almost be comfortable with that rule, as "rapid fire" is really a vague term that is left open for individual interpretation. I was once questioned about the speed at which I was discharging my pistol at this range. I merely politely pointed at the IPSC target I was shooting, which contained only a nice group of "A zone" hits (I sure wasn't shoting fast by competition standards on that day), and then asked if I was shooting too fast to be safe. The range officer was satisfied in that particular instance, and I was satisfied. Ironically enough, that same "slow fire" range also had a contingent of gang-banger types who liked to show up and demonstrate how poorly they could shoot. That group of guys was unsafe at any speed, simply because they didn't have the knowledge, discipline, experience, or maturity that is required to safely enjoy shooting sports!

Sam1911
July 6, 2010, 07:49 AM
Based on my interests and goals, a range that did not allow shooting on the move, drawing from a holster and concealment, and shooting at the highest possible controllable speed would be of no use to me whatsoever.

MedWheeler
July 6, 2010, 08:47 AM
The one I like most around here ($10 per day as opposed to per hour like the others) does indeed have a one-per-second rule. It also has a no-holstered rule. I can live with them because I can utilize those prohibitions elsewhere. It's an outdoor range. The indoor ranges have no such restrictions I know of, but they do get that rate per hour, and they don't let you shoot ammo acquired elsewhere.

Travis McGee
July 6, 2010, 08:51 AM
At Gateway in JAX FL, it's one shot per 2 seconds, which inhibits realistic pistolcraft. I find it less troublesome for rifle at 100 or 200 yards. In both cases I focus on getting a perfect sight picture, followup, trigger control, all the good stuff. Then hopefully at "away" ranges or in real life defense my speed (and control) will be there.

Manco
July 6, 2010, 09:30 AM
How many of you go to ranges that have rules regarding frequency of shots?

I wouldn't unless exceptions are made for those who can control their rapid fire.

Where I am in California I've only been to one range that allowed controlled pairs of shots and that was an expensive indoor range. I assumed this was standard, but I just got back from a 3 week trip to NH visiting relatives and went to two ranges there and both had a "As long as you are controlling where your shots go, fire as fast as you like" rule.

That's pretty much ideal, I think, maintaining safety (as long as the RSOs are doing their job) while allowing for what I consider an essential component of training. The bottom line is that if you're training for defensive purposes, then you need to work on rapid fire at the range. This doesn't mean that you should have the mindset of always emptying your weapon, of course, but rather of learning how to quickly aim and make decisions on each shot in rapid succession. The faster you get--with acceptable "combat accuracy"--the more effective you will be, and any range that strictly enforces a slow fire rule is limiting your potential.

Are these rules common or uncommon based on your experience?

They seem to be fairly common in my area, and strict enforcement is not uncommon.

Ian
July 6, 2010, 09:34 AM
At my range, rapid fire is downright encouraged, as is drawing, shooting while moving, and practicing teamwork with partners. There's also no range fee, and you can shoot any ammo you like. That's the beauty of owning property. :)

postalnut25
July 6, 2010, 09:46 AM
I go to a fairly unregulated outdoor range. As long as you aren't stupid, nobody cares.

SaxonPig
July 6, 2010, 09:50 AM
The local public range is owned by the federal government and its stated purpose is hunter safety and training. Therefore, no human shaped targets are allowed nor is rapid fire. You also can't holster a handgun or bring loaded magazines onto the property. Plus, the range master must visually inspect your guns when you arrive and before you leave.

This is why after only a couple of visits I paid the dues and joined a private club where they only prohibition is full-auto (and even though I don't have any MGs I oppose this ban but it was by membership vote).

essayons21
July 6, 2010, 12:31 PM
I used to belong to a range which was owned and run by a very grumpy old man. On the range brief prior to joining he said that as long as every round hits the cardboard target backing you can shoot as fast as you want.

Later, after I had joined and paid my $200, I was shooting controlled pairs with my 1911, putting every round in the 9 or 10 ring when he approached me and said that he didn't think I was keeping all the rounds on target and I was done on the pistol range for the day. Asking around to the other members, anything faster than the rate of fire of a front-stuffer is too fast for him, so the next day I put in my application for the more expensive but much nicer shooting club and range on the other side of town.

The new range allows full auto's, .50's and all sorts of other fun toys, and the only rule regarding rate of fire is "no un-aimed assault fire." I can live with that, and have never looked back.

NMGonzo
July 6, 2010, 12:57 PM
My range is double tap friendly.

Hatterasguy
July 6, 2010, 01:10 PM
This is one of the many reasons I don't go to Blue Trails in CT anymore. Everytime I would go their I would get the 3 second between shots speach, even before I shot.:rolleyes: I guess it was because I am young and have cool toys. With rules like that I might just as well shoot bolt guns, whats the point of a semi with a 30 round mag?

Anyway at the new place the rule is no full auto fire which doesn't affect me at the moment, but other than that go nuts.:evil:

I took my friend yesterday and put a 20 round mag through his M14 in about 5 seconds sending the soda bottle I was shooting at up in the air before it got stuck in a tree.:D Now thats fun. Way to much fun for some ranges, they would have had a heart attack.

In general I view any range rules that are not about safety as BS, and just try to avoid ranges with such stupid rules.

konfederate.kowboy
July 6, 2010, 02:29 PM
Now the range I am going to in alaska does also have a rule that states
"No more than 10 rounds may be placed in a magazine" so there goes your 30 round
Mags but they havent enforced it to me.

Ronsch
July 6, 2010, 02:31 PM
Our ranges here in Juneau (except the State Fish and Game Indoor Range) are unregulated. The outdoor range has a sort of caretaker, but that is it.

EddieNFL
July 6, 2010, 02:57 PM
Local state operated range allows full auto fire...but no double taps from semis or revolvers.
Government logic, I guess.

Hatterasguy
July 6, 2010, 03:06 PM
Now the range I am going to in alaska does also have a rule that states
"No more than 10 rounds may be placed in a magazine" so there goes your 30 round
Mags but they havent enforced it to me.

I would tell them because of that rule they lost my business and go shot somewhere else.

benEzra
July 6, 2010, 03:09 PM
I've been a fairly avid shooter for 20 years and have never had the un-privilege of shooting at a range with a slowfire-only rule, nor would I shoot at one.

Lonestar49
July 6, 2010, 03:34 PM
...

Funny about this subject, is, at my indoor range, the known members and, depending on lane use i.e.crowd conditions and, who the others might be, known or unknown, along with what one, as a frequent member observes with crowd "experience" as observed, can do - safely, if not crowed or if lanes are filled with experienced shooters, can shoot/practice quick double tabs, on and off, using any type ammo..

This indoor range I'm a member of cost about 75 bucks more per 11 months than any of the other local ranges around (indoor) but "real use" issue, along with having a gunny/s there at work, M-F 8hrs a day, also works out well IF one has a problem and can politely, as gunny/s for help, and if not a major deal, they usually fix the problem on the spot, say/smile/laugh and say "no charge" your welcome..

All this, and the ammo they sell, Winchester Law enforcement is both, the absolute cleanest ammo I have used, and use, and is anywhere from 4 dollars down to 2 dollars less for that clean ammo vs what the local gun shops sell, be it WWB, Federal, PMC, Remington, etc., which are all much much more dirty shooting, not to mention less consistent in over-all consistency..

A great total package deal yet I have a friend that always complains about the indoor range he's been a member, now, going on 3rd year, about no double taps, ammo types and limitations, short range officer/s temperament, if one shoots over 1 shot per 2 seconds, and overall crowding with, namely, low time or lack of instruction on the basics, painting, you name it, safety violations he encounters time and time again and "complains to me" yet I have never been able to convince him when his yearly dues come up to join my indoor range, simply because he just can't see his way spending the extra 75 bucks over 11 months to be able to shoot, freely (again with making sure of the mixed company) as not to set an example for others to go full auto) in mind whenever he joins me at my club, 4 times a year, it seems.. Not to mention not many safety violators and they are handled quickly, politely, and most "learn" from it as opposed to those that just get angry, like his tales of his RO's, and yell at the folks, turning them into humble pie and, my bet, learn little from it..

Boggles the mind, save 75 bucks, same drive time either range, ammo there more, much dirtier, they frown on picking up brass, just about anything mainly because of the mind-set of the RO's there vs the all-so friendly RO's and far more open rules, including no problem, pick up all your brass, of mine..

What am I doing wrong here.. ? ;)


Ls

CaliCoastie
July 6, 2010, 05:51 PM
well the range im going to out here about the only issue restriction is they dont want cannons(seriousy, unless you clear it with the owner). he told me if i had a 50cal MG to go ahead and bring it out. Its an outdoor range ran by a retired gunny sgt. O and hes 3/4 crazy. but its cheap, you can hunt on the rest of the property and its the only rifle range around.

Owen
July 6, 2010, 05:57 PM
This is one of the many reasons I don't go to Blue Trails in CT anymore.

Blue Trails has a neighborhood on the otherside of their backstop, and has recently had issues with projectiles leaving their range. Last I heard, they were fighting legal battles to stay open.

Deanimator
July 6, 2010, 06:09 PM
Our club range has a big bullseye community, as well as IDPA.

Any rule that prevented you from practicing NRA timed fire (5 shots in 20 seconds) or rapid fire (5 shots in 10 seconds), would never get passed. If it did, half the club would leave, or the board of directors would be gone at the next election.

And that doesn't count the IDPA people doing double taps.

Ours is the most safely run range that I know of in NE Ohio.

Hatterasguy
July 6, 2010, 09:56 PM
Blue Trails has a neighborhood on the otherside of their backstop, and has recently had issues with projectiles leaving their range. Last I heard, they were fighting legal battles to stay open.

Oh yeah, they are done with that though. Now their goal is to rape every shooter for every penny they can to cover those fees.

They are horrible business people. If they charged $10 an hour on the weekends insted of $30 they would have every lane rented insted of 6 people up their. They don't understand that the market will only bear so much, they need to invest in an economics class.

The Lone Haranguer
July 6, 2010, 10:19 PM
No such restriction at Scottsdale Gun Club, where I did most of my shooting when I was in AZ. It would be pretty difficult to enact such a rule when they rent machine guns. :D After a one-time certification (and $15 fee) you could also be "holster qualified," i.e., draw and shoot from your holster. A special tag denoting this was given along with your number. I never got around to this, however.

Defense Minister
July 6, 2010, 10:28 PM
This is why I shun my local range when it comes to handguns, and instead shoot at a safe location on National Forest land. If I can't train to defend my life, which means LOTS of dynamic possibilities, there's no point in shooting handguns at all for me.

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