How do you guys feel about this...


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Carter
July 6, 2010, 05:29 PM
I had an argument the other day with my mom and dad after church last sunday (we attend the same church) about concealed carrying to church. My argument was that when going to and leaving church you may need to protect yourself, possibly (however unlikely) in church as well. They stated that no one needed a gun in church.

Our church is in the middle of a pretty bad area. To be exact, most of the town has random bad areas in it due to old mill houses, apartments, and cheap housing areas springing up where ever they can. I know a few people who live in the area around the church. They abuse government programs, sell drugs, are too lazy to go the bathroom and save it up in bottles, and other random things that are both sick and highly criminal. The other week my car got keyed at church. Overall, I'd feel safer in the area (and alot of other places in town) concealed carrying. But apparantly my parents feel differently.

Our church is a Southern Baptist one, and therefore I'd expect them to be pro gun, but every event or trip they have has a strict no weapons policy. However, I'm not sure how'd they feel about me carrying a handgun during service.

What do you guys think about guns in church?

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Werewolf
July 6, 2010, 05:41 PM
They stated that no one needed a gun in church.
Yeah?

Tell that to the church goers out there in CO where some nut came in and started blazing away. He got took down by a lady CCW'r. It made national news last year sometime.

There are other incidents of churches being attacked while the flock was in attendance.

It's the attitude of your mom and dad that makes churches such attractive targets to all the nut jobs out there today.

Vonderek
July 6, 2010, 05:50 PM
There are three church attacks I can think of off the top of my head. Do some searching online and print some news articles. Give the articles to your parents. Do a little research on the number of violent crimes and property crimes last year in the area where your church is located. Give that info to your parents.

Finally, have them read and re-read Luke 22:36. Jesus himself knew some of his followers were armed and did not rebuke them. Christians are called upon to be gentle but at the same time God does not expect his followers to submit to slaughter.

oldbear
July 6, 2010, 05:52 PM
Carter, I believe that the N.C. C/C, regulations prohibit C/C in churches. You may wish to check this before carry in church.

CoRoMo
July 6, 2010, 05:54 PM
...every event or trip they have has a strict no weapons policy.
Is it about the guns, or the company? Maybe they don't believe YOU are safe, rather than guns being unsafe.
Do they own any guns, or are they completely anti?

Carter
July 6, 2010, 06:22 PM
Carter, I believe that the N.C. C/C, regulations prohibit C/C in churches. You may wish to check this before carry in church

Church's wasn't a listed do not carry place in my required class. In fact the instructor (a deputy) used church as an example of when carrying and having to tell an officer when approached.


My parents aren't exactly anti-gun, but they are rather scared of them and don't like being around them. After they attended a neighborhood watch meeting they stopped objecting out right my wishes that they learn how to use my shotgun for home defense, but they still don't want to have a loaded gun in the house.
They're in their 60's and pretty set in their ways, and they have always been very crafty in using non gun strategy defending their home by doing everything they could, short of getting an alarm, to make their house less of an attractive target. Motion activated lights, deadbolts always locked, doubled key sided dead bolts, fence, etc etc.


I'll check the church and do not carry list more carefully, but I'm pretty positive you can carry there.

Mags
July 6, 2010, 06:24 PM
Sounds like Roanoke Rapids.

Carter
July 6, 2010, 06:29 PM
Well I just remembered something...I haven't concealed carried to church yet (as I am still in the waiting process for the permit, but NC is shall issue and I meet all qualifications), but my church does have a private school during the school year for the younger lads...which means its educational property. Is there a way around this, or do I need to find a new church?
But I went and double checked, and churches are not on the do not carry list.


But please, keep stating your opinions and/or experiences.

Carter
July 6, 2010, 06:47 PM
Is it about the guns, or the company? Maybe they don't believe YOU are safe, rather than guns being unsafe.
Do they own any guns, or are they completely anti?

I know one of the main people in the church (store owner) owns guns. I'm sure others do too. I think there is atleast one cop who is a member, and there are a lot of veterans that I'm sure owns guns. I've never really asked the church members or pastor what they think because I believe it to be a private matter.

However, the no weapons policy was brought up most notably on a youth trip to a really run down area where the youth and adults were doing some work. They stated they were going to help and weapons were not needed, or something to that same effect. So I think the churches policy, atleast on trips is anti-gun.

Mags
July 6, 2010, 06:55 PM
My church gave away a Daniel Defense M4 with an Aimpoint after service a few weeks ago. They also had an organized CCW class amongst it members. I love my church.

mothermopar
July 6, 2010, 07:01 PM
Church is a place of solitude, self reflection and worship of God... it is also a building constructed by mortals in a mortal world replete with violent scumbags that don't respect God, let alone human life.

Churches get burglarized all the time. Some, violently robbed. Fewer, violently assaulted. Point being churches and the people who attend them are victimized quite often. There are known valuables, especially cash, within... and these are rarely secured like a bank.

Anyone that thinks that God would want us to be pacifists in the face of a violent threat to our collective decency is insane. God isn't a pacifist! Ever hear of God's wrath? Well... the crooks might get it when they die, but its up to the good folks to arrange the meeting if need be.

EddieNFL
July 6, 2010, 07:02 PM
I would find another church.

Carter
July 6, 2010, 07:06 PM
My church gave away a Daniel Defense M4 with an Aimpoint after service a few weeks ago. They also had an organized CCW class amongst it members. I love my church.

Mags, if there are any job openings in your area for a recent college grad I'd love your church too....

An ar and aimpoint? Really? ...I'm deprived...

Sam1911
July 6, 2010, 07:10 PM
Here are the "Off Limits" places in North Carolina (from handgunlaw.us).

Places Off-Limits Even With A Permit/License

Schools, public or private, all levels including universities. A curricular or extracurricular activity sponsored by a school. This also applies to all property owned by any school. 14-269.2

Assemblies and establishments where admission was charged. 14-269.3

Assemblies and establishments where alcohol is both sold and consumed. 14-269.3

State Capitol Building, the Executive Mansion, the Western Residence of the Governor, or on the grounds of any of these buildings, and any building housing any court of the General Court of Justice. 14-269.4

State office buildings or any portion of a building in which there’re State offices. 14-415.11(c)

Law Enforcement or Correctional Facilities. 14-415.11(c)

Financial Institutions. 14-415.11(c)

Events Occurring in Public: It shall be unlawful for any person participating in, affiliated with, or present as a spectator at any parade, funeral procession, picket line, or demonstration upon any private health care facility or upon any public place owned or under the control of the State or any of its political subdivisions to willfully or intentionally possess or have immediate access to any dangerous weapon. 14-277.2

Areas of emergencies or riots. 14-288.7

Where notice of carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited by the posting of a conspicuous notice or statement. 14-415.11(c)

Carry In State Parks/State & National Forests/WMA/Road Side Rest Areas
State Parks: NO 15A NCAC 12B .0901
State/National Forests: NO 15A NCAC 09C .1243
WMA’s: NO 15A NCAC 10D .0102 Any Cal. Only in designated camping areas for defense of persons and property. - 22-caliber pistols with barrels, not greater than 7.5 inches in length and shooting only short, long or long rifle
ammunition, may be carried as side arms on game lands at any time, except by hunters during the special bow-and-arrow and muzzle loading firearms deer hunting season.
Road Side Rest Areas: YES 14-269.4

I don't know for sure that all property owned by a church that also owns a school would count as property owned by that school, but it seems likely. I'd call the state's Attorney General's office and try to get an answer on that. Also, you could try your state rifle association just to see if they happen to know of case law on the matter.

From a philosophical standpoint, you absolutely DO need to be armed, if at all LEGALLY possible. Churches -- and those nice folks attending them -- are prime targets for violent crime. Not that there are "safe" neighborhoods, but it sounds like the one surrounding your church is especially UNsafe. Trust your instincts!

If you determine that it is legal to carry in your church, DO SO. It is no business of your parents or any of the other attendees what personal defensive items you carry.

Ala Dan
July 6, 2010, 07:14 PM
I think GOD gives us the sense to protect ourselves, our property, and our
valuables. Likewise, I think he also gives us the sense to protect his assets.
That being said, I believe that concealed carry in church is permissable;
especially in these times~! :scrutiny: ;)

ichiban
July 6, 2010, 07:24 PM
New Life Church 12/9/07.
'nuf said.

Highcaliber
July 6, 2010, 07:40 PM
As long as it is not specifically banned by State law in your area, I would carry in Church.

Phydeaux642
July 6, 2010, 07:48 PM
August 14, 2007, three people were killed and five wounded at a Micronesian church in Neosho, Missouri when a gunman ran into the church during the service and opened fire.

Church seems to me like as good as place as any to carry. The pastor of the church that my sister attends is a gun guy, and I wouldn't be surprised if he carries when he's preaching.

Carter
July 6, 2010, 07:57 PM
Turns out my church's private school is just preschool and kindergarten. But I'm guessing that still counts as a school and thus voids my right to carry at this particular church? Law scholars welcome to answer...

EddieNFL
July 6, 2010, 08:17 PM
Turns out my church's private school is just preschool and kindergarten. But I'm guessing that still counts as a school and thus voids my right to carry at this particular church? Law scholars welcome to answer...
Same at my church (FL). I contacted a 2nd amendment lawyer and asked how it would be viewed as the classrooms double as Sunday school classes on Sunday mornings. He responded that it was a gray area and no case law was available. His opinion was it "should" be acceptable to carry when school wasn't in session, but he would not want to be the test case.

Sam1911
July 6, 2010, 08:27 PM
Sounds about as confused as PA's law on the matter -- where carry in primary and secondary schools is unlawful even with the license to carry firearms with certain exceptions.

The exceptions include that a gun may be possessed on school grounds for an "other lawful purpose." Most of us would conclude that, since licensed carrying of a gun for self-defense is a lawful purpose, we'd be in the clear. PA law enforcement agencies thus far have not chosen to see it that way, however.

cambeul41
July 6, 2010, 08:46 PM
Just for fun, I Googled [church shooting] and got "About 21,400,000 results."

Of course some might be about basketball.

Hatterasguy
July 6, 2010, 08:46 PM
My solution is just not to go to church, havn't been since I was 12.:D

Carter
July 6, 2010, 09:13 PM
The exceptions include that a gun may be possessed on school grounds for an "other lawful purpose." Most of us would conclude that, since licensed carrying of a gun for self-defense is a lawful purpose, we'd be in the clear. PA law enforcement agencies thus far have not chosen to see it that way, however.

My church is starting a security detail during service...that should count....but highly doubt it.



My solution is just not to go to church, havn't been since I was 12

HEATHEN! Just kidding. My mom calls me that and I do go...*sigh*

The Lone Haranguer
July 6, 2010, 09:22 PM
They stated that no one needed a gun in church.

It would be nice not to have to, but there have been a number of shootings in churches.

KodiakBeer
July 6, 2010, 09:37 PM
You don't need your Dads permission to carry a gun in church or anywhere else. If he complains, then make fun of his Sansabelt slacks.

Defense Minister
July 6, 2010, 09:38 PM
I make sure that I am in compliance with state law, and then I keep my mouth shut about carrying in church. My wife, and one member of the church leadership, are the only people who know for certain that I carry while I'm there. There are others who know my stance on firearms, and probably suspect it, but I don't advertise.

As previously stated, the attitude of most folks who sit in a pew on Sunday morning is the reason churches make such a great target. Plus, how hard would it be for a stranger to walk into a church, wait until the morning offering is taken, and then follow the guy with the money out of the sanctuary? We have seen that there is no place sacred among violent criminals; not schools, not malls, not nursing homes, and not churches.

bgrav321
July 6, 2010, 10:07 PM
If you still live at home, then I think if you're a Southern Baptist (and would claim to know Christ and live by the Bible) you really have no choice but to respect your father's wishes. Not trying to start a religious war here but the OP introduced his religious affiliation.

Now if you're living in the role of an adult (not trying to insult you at all), meaning you support yourself, feed yourself, etc, and live on your own, I would just do it and not tell them. I think biblically though it's pretty clear that children must obey parents (unless of course you're in the role of an adult.) Pretty hard to disobey the guy who feeds you.

I realize many, including the OP, may not believe this way, and that's great I love America. Just my .02

Tallinar
July 6, 2010, 10:11 PM
My church meets in a school, so I'm obviously not able to carry there even if I wanted to.

I think it raises an interesting question as a Christian though. I've thought about it often myself. I will premise what I am about to say by reiterating the fact that I am completely pro-gun and pro-concealed carry. I think concealed carry is not only a lawful thing, but also the RESPONSIBLE thing to do. I'm not trying to turn this thread into a Bible study, but it's a Christian question that needs to be discussed with Christ on the mind. First and foremost as Christians, we must consider all things through the light of God's word; rather than beginning with our pre-conceived notions and making that the basis for our conclusions.

On the one hand, many will point out that Peter carried a sword. They will also point out (sometimes out of exegesis, I might add) where Jesus instructs his disciplies to "buy a sword" in Luke 22. At the same time though, let's not forget the fact that Jesus rebuked Peter in Matthew 26 when he drew his sword and struck the servant at his betrayal. ""Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword."

Had Jesus ever rebuked Peter for carrying a sword prior to this? No, he had not. Read on though, and Jesus explains "do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?"

Jesus came to fulfill a specific task, and Peter's actions were not in alignment with Jesus' work. Jesus is quick to point out to Peter that, frankly, he was acting out of faith. Do you not think that I am in complete control of this situation? Furthermore, you knew that it had to go down like this from the beginning. Similarly, I think as Christians present day, we must remember that our task is first and foremost to minister as to show Christ to a fallen world of people that are running head-first toward their own destruction. By destruction, we don't mean financial troubles or hardship. We mean the just wrath of a holy God.

I can recall no circumstance in the new testament, post-Pentacost (the book of Acts and thereafter), where Christians are led to take up arms. In fact, we usually see the opposite happening. They preached Christ with boldness, and then they allowed themselves to be taken under the hostility of others (just look at how many of the apostles were martyred). The work of their faith and the joy in Christ was foremost.

When Jim Elliot and his companions went to minister to the tribes in Ecuador; it's recorded that at least two of them were definitely armed. One even fired a warning shot before they were attacked. However, they had determined ahead of time that they would not kill an Auca who did not know Christ in order to same themselves. It was concluded that they were ready for heaven. The Auca were not. A challenging thought.

TLDR? The only picture I want to paint is a reminder that Christ and the work of the Gospel must be first. Earthly security takes a backseat. As much as I may want to dispute it, my lawful (and even earthly responsible) ownership and carrying of weapons does have the capacity to inhibit the work of the Gospel.

If a man comes into my house tonight looking to do evil to my family; rest assured that he will be met by the muzzle of my 12 guage; not the sound of my preaching. At the same time, if I go to the homeless shelter to preach next weekend, my gun will stay home. I genuinely think that's a legitimate stance without falling into hypocrisy.

Carter
July 6, 2010, 10:17 PM
bgrav321-My parents are southern baptist, I'm not so keen on calling myself that as I have my differences with it. However, I currently do live at home, freshly graduated from college, and trying to find a real job, which is a major pain right now. All of my gun stuff is paid for by me with my little tiny income from my temporary job. My parents may not feel it is right to carry in church, but I do, and I feel that it is my job to protect me and mine, even if they have objections to how it is done.

I have thought about talking to maybe the pastor only, but I have no real knowledge of his opinion, and I believe it is a private matter for me to decide, not the congregation. However, if it became an issue, I'd leave.

Ironically if someone tried to rob our offering they'd be disappointed. Most of our church's money is done to the office at different times. Although, to the unknowing, it looks like were cheap.

Low Budget Shooter
July 6, 2010, 10:18 PM
Dear THR,

I had the privilege of preaching about this just this week. Here's the link in case you would like to listen:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sermonID=74101612105

In case you don't want to listen to it, the short version is: if you know you need to take money in your wallet to buy something, and you know you need to take food in your lunchbox to eat something, then you should know that you need to take a weapon if you want to be protected from murderers.

LBS

HOWARD J
July 6, 2010, 10:21 PM
Here in MI you are not allowed to carry a gun in the places that crazies like to attack.
Schools, colleges, churches, taverns, etc.
Normally, this country likes to give the criminal the edge.............

bgrav321
July 6, 2010, 10:26 PM
Carter,

I personally would refrain from carrying while living at home then. A good Christian friend of mine is in a similar circumstances of wanting to do things but not being in agreement with the parents. I see the Bible teaching honoring and obeying one's parents. I'm not opposed to the carry at all. I'd just start once you land that job. (they're out there, promise)

However, you are you, and I am me.

One other thing, if I was carrying at church, I would tell NO ONE. Especially not the pastor. People don't need to know they're being protected to be protected.

irishelcid
July 6, 2010, 10:55 PM
there's a reason that "mega" churches have armed security details. My father is a priest and know's that I carry in church. He didn't always see the logic of it until he got a job at a little church in a bad neighborhood.

Vonderek
July 6, 2010, 11:19 PM
Tallinar,
So if you go to preach at the homeless shelter and some psychotic starts killing people, is that God's will? Are people who are murdered on church grounds fulfilling God's will? I respectfully disagree with your conclusions. A church is not heaven on earth...it is a physical edifice constructed by men and populated in large part by sick people. It is a hospital for damaged spirits. And it is a magnet for the truly deranged. I have personally experienced this on numerous occasions.

Yes, Jesus rebuked Peter for his action in the garden prior to his arrest but I understand it as a rebuke for Peter trying to prevent God's plan for Jesus. The mere fact that Jesus permitted at least some of his followers to carry weapons is telling. If his was truly a pacifist movement then weapons would have been forbidden, the same as what we deal with today in many facets of society. And let's not forget the righteous violence employed by Jesus himself in the clearing the moneychangers out of the temple.

To all-sorry to turn this into a religious post but the whole thread is about carrying in church and as such doctrine needs to be discussed.

Low Budget Shooter
July 6, 2010, 11:45 PM
Dear Tallinar,

As noble a sentiment as the Elliot party had in deciding to submit to murder by the Aucas, I think they interpreted the Bible wrongly and so decided wrongly. I know they are held as heroes and martyrs, but it could be that they were wrong.

LBS

Wadero
July 7, 2010, 12:39 AM
Since you are carrying concealed the only people that need to know are you and the omniscient one that is the reason for attending in the first place.

Unless you are determined to changing your parents' minds (probably not all that possible) don't bring it up.

JoeSlomo
July 7, 2010, 01:13 AM
I will carry wherever it is lawful to do so.

This is why the good lord invented "church" guns...

Gouranga
July 7, 2010, 06:30 AM
I do not carry in my church. it is not posted and we do not have a school. My wife had some concerns with me carrying there. Normally, I would carry anyway however, after the last round o church shootings, specifically the one where a lady CCWing put an end to it, my church took steps to prevent that. Namely my church has 3 armed off-duty police officers who stand outside the doors and watch the lot, and inside the building for every service. We are also in a pretty safe area and have not had any issues with vandalism, crime, etc.

However, really if i were in the OP's position, I would certainly carry at my church. You gotta respect the parents, sit down with them, calmly explain to them your reasoning, that while it is highly unlikely you would need the weapon, it would not be the first time a place of worship was also a target of violent criminals. Really explain to them the reasoning behind it. Then after that, don't tell them. Carry concealed legally and don't even bring it up.

Sam1911
July 7, 2010, 07:14 AM
While I appreciate those of the faith that have taken time to explain their interpretations of holy writ, religions discussions are not allowed here for reasons explained clearly in our forum rules.

So, please, respectfully, do not post any more commentary on whether the Bible/Jesus would want you to carry and/or defend yourself.

If we can stick to the LAW and whatever SOCIAL implications you find compelling, that's fine. If not, we'll have to close this down.

wishin
July 7, 2010, 07:19 AM
Our church is a Southern Baptist one, and therefore I'd expect them to be pro gun, but every event or trip they have has a strict no weapons policy. However, I'm not sure how'd they feel about me carrying a handgun during service. What do you guys think about guns in church?

Unfortunately our Governor wouldn't go along with church carry in our attempt to permit it through a recent Bill here. One never knows what will happen where; better to be prepared.

danprkr
July 7, 2010, 07:26 AM
Living in one of the two most liberal cities in TX, and knowing the congregation as I do I'd bet my congregation would FREAK if they knew someone was carrying in their midst. But, to my knowledge there's no rule against it.

easyg
July 7, 2010, 08:31 AM
I don't think it would be legal considering the school on church grounds.

SO....

I would find a different church to attend or stop going altogether.

Low Budget Shooter
July 7, 2010, 10:28 AM
Dear Sam,

You're right, of course. It's been a while since I looked at the forum rules, and I had forgotten about that part. I apologize. Thank you for scolding us so kindly.

LBS

happygeek
July 7, 2010, 11:38 AM
Someone once asked me as I locked and loaded before heading out of the house "do you really need that thing?". My answer: "man, I sure hope not".

Since then they've came around to see that if you ever do need a pistol, you will need it very, very badly.

speaksoftly
July 7, 2010, 12:41 PM
Well being Jewish, I don't go to church but do occasionally attend a local synagogue. When I got my CHL I made it a personal goal to carry 100% and this includes in a place religious gathering. I've never been in a situation where I had to use my conceal carry weapon to defend my life but being in a house of worship does NOT make you safe.

Also, if you want an interesting tidbit take a look at the below link. My father was in the synagogue service when the following shooting occurred.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1997-04-28/news/9704270404_1_synagogue-anderson-klan

RainDodger
July 7, 2010, 01:14 PM
A concealed pistol is just that - concealed. How would they even know you have a pistol?

That's the point of concealment. They would only know if you need it.... and then you won't care who knows about it.

searcher451
July 7, 2010, 01:24 PM
With all deference to your mother, if you believe that you need to pack while in church, then by all means pack while you are in church; that's why they call it conceled carry. These days, given the plethora of church shootings ...

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=church+shootings&aq=0l&aqi=g-l8g-lm2&aql=&oq=churck+shootings&gs_rfai=Cb3D3z7c0TKK_C5jg6wOAmOXGCAAAAKoEBU_Qt9o7&fp=4cb5f508e49085f6

... I'd feel far safer with a P99 on my hip than with just a hymnal. But that's just me.

Just One Shot
July 7, 2010, 01:31 PM
http://www.christianzoneforum.com/forum/

You can get answers to your question from some like minded christians of which I am one. Do a search when you get there, I'm sure this topic has been discussed and alot of good responses are posted that can help you with your parents.

:D

I'm a Southern Baptist myself. In Ohio you must have permission to CC in church. I have sought and received permission from the Pastor.

nitetrane98
July 7, 2010, 01:36 PM
Tell them what they want to hear and then do what's right for you.

Werewolf
July 7, 2010, 02:11 PM
Tell them what they want to hear and then do what's right for you.
There's a word for that...

It's called lying!

Don't do it. Not worth it. If you feel like your parents need to know you're carrying at church then tell them the truth. If they can't be convinced that it's the right thing to do then y'all just agree to disagree.

Don't lie about it.

winchester '97
July 7, 2010, 04:49 PM
Just make sure it stays concealed, most likely nobody will ever know about it, and if you ever have to use it i doubt they will fault you for it.

jleyring
July 7, 2010, 04:59 PM
Although im not of the same faith i have seen people carry in my faith. Mostly the individuals were retired police or some profession that they had a few enemys. It is sad to see that even in church you cant. just sit peacefully and worship. I guess it comes down to what your church says about the issue. I personally dont carry in the church just because Im not to worried about someone coming after me. If i get gunned down in church, well then what better place to die. At least your doing what your supposed to do.;) Just my thoughts

hso
July 7, 2010, 05:06 PM
We've had plenty of discussions about carrying during services, weddings, etc. and the short form of the responses are -

1) See examples of church shootings in the past few years. One was stopped in CO by a person armed at the church while another in TN was stopped when several members swarmed the shooter when he paused to reload his shotgun. Which would you rather see, a single person armed with a CCW stop an attack or hope that others in the group were charging a gun wielding lunatic.

2) Would you rather leave your gun locked in the car for someone to steal?

3) Would you rather leave your gun at home in the safe and go without it all the way too and from and possibly every stop between?

4) Exactly who's supposed to protect you if not yourself?

5) If you're concerned about what's right for the setting talk to the person who's responsible for it and not your parents. If you don't want to be told no, don't ask the question and use your own judgement as an adult.

7.62 Nato
July 7, 2010, 05:27 PM
Here are the "Off Limits" places in North Carolina (from handgunlaw.us).



I don't know for sure that all property owned by a church that also owns a school would count as property owned by that school, but it seems likely. I'd call the state's Attorney General's office and try to get an answer on that. Also, you could try your state rifle association just to see if they happen to know of case law on the matter.

From a philosophical standpoint, you absolutely DO need to be armed, if at all LEGALLY possible. Churches -- and those nice folks attending them -- are prime targets for violent crime. Not that there are "safe" neighborhoods, but it sounds like the one surrounding your church is especially UNsafe. Trust your instincts!

If you determine that it is legal to carry in your church, DO SO. It is no business of your parents or any of the other attendees what personal defensive items you carry.
I believe the church would own the school, not the other way around.

Here in Michigan you are allowed to carry in church with a CPL IF you have permission of the person running the church. A friend of mine was robbed going into church recently. If the law and your church allow it do it discretely. It's a personal choice.

merlinfire
July 7, 2010, 06:56 PM
Of course, that's if you don't have any religious problems with causing bodily harm to another human being.

At my church, most people own guns. No one carries.

quietman
July 7, 2010, 09:11 PM
Well, we're about 25 miles from new life. Our church has an armed security group that has had tactical training too. Our pastor doesn't own or shoot guns. So . . . .

One other thought, if it's concealed why do your parents have to know?

Sam1911
July 7, 2010, 10:06 PM
"At my church, most people own guns. No one carries who carries discusses it in public."

inSight-NEO
July 7, 2010, 10:26 PM
I choose to not carry in church. But, that is just based on my location and personal preference. However, I have nothing against the idea.

If you are able to carry, then carry whenever you feel the need to do so (or wherever you are able to do so, by law)...that is my take on the matter.

wgaynor
July 8, 2010, 11:29 AM
OP, it sounds like you live with mom and dad. Too many posts and too little time to read them all, but the only advice I'd give anybody in your situation is "Honor thy Mother and Father." Then, when you get out from under their roof, do whatever you want, unless they are paying your way.

RevDerb
July 13, 2010, 06:47 AM
Does this story ring a bell to you? :confused:

I guess that the shooter didn't know that he shouldn't have a gun in church.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,506820,00.html

March 9, 2009
An Illinois pastor was shot and killed, and two parishioners injured after an unknown gunman opened fire during Sunday services at the First Baptist Church in Maryville, Ill.

The gunman walked down the church aisle and briefly spoke to the pastor before shooting during the 8:15 a.m service. Rev. Fred Winters used the Bible he was reading from to shield himself from the first round of bullets being pumped at him, a parishioner told FOX News.

The gunman's .45 caliber semi-automatic pistol jammed after the fourth shot was fired. The suspect then started stabbing himself with a four-inch knife, Ralph Timmins of the Illinois State Police told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

Timmins said the gunman slashed two parishioners when they tried to subdue him.

The newspaper reported late Sunday a source close to the case confirmed the gunman as Terry Joe Sedlacek, 27, who developed mental illness after Lyme disease attacked his brain.

Rev. Winters was shot three times, and was pronounced dead at Anderson Hospital.

The gunman and one stabbing victim, 39-year-old Terry Bullard, underwent surgery at St. Louis University Hospital, spokeswoman Laura Keller said. Bullard was in serious condition, she said.

The other victim, Keith Melton, was treated and released from Gateway Regional Medical Center, spokeswoman Kate Allaria said. A man who answered the phone at a listing for Keith Melton in Troy identified himself as Melton's stepson and said Melton had been stabbed but was going to be fine.

Illinois State Police say they are 99 percent sure they have the identity of the suspect, but have not released his name pending possible charges. They have confirmed he is 27-years-old and from Troy, Ill.

The Rev. Mark Jones, another pastor at First Baptist, said he did not recognize the gunman, who Jones saw briefly before he pulled his weapon. Jones then went into an adjacent room and did not see the shooting, though he heard a sound like miniature fire crackers.

"We have no idea what this guy's motives were," Jones said outside the church. "We don't know if we'll ever know that."

Police said there were about 150 people in the church at the time of the shooting.

Linda Cunningham was sitting near the back of the church when the gunman walked up the aisle. She told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch she figured the man was confused about what time the service started because of daylight savings time.

Cunningham told the Post-Dispatch she, as well as others, didn't recognize the gunman.

Some parishioners believe the gunman used church bulletins to conceal his weapon.

"All you could see was confetti" Cunningham told the Post-Dispatch.

The church has an average attendance of more than 1,200 and was officially organized on March 4, 1945, according to their Web site.

Click here to read more on this story from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

Click here to read more on this story from MyFOX2Now.com in St. Louis.

ultradoc
July 13, 2010, 08:07 AM
I go to an independant Baptist church. We have a small congregation [about 55 people] and I know that there are three of us that carry in church [and pastor knows it] and out of church. I told my pastor that I would like to see him get his CCP and told him that I would help him financially. He's not against it it's just finding the time to do it. He's a hunter and pro gun by the way. If your folks are against you CCing tell them ok and carry anyway. Good luck.

RX-178
July 13, 2010, 08:13 AM
The idea that 'nobody needs a gun in church' is true, but only if you are satisfied with saving only your soul. After all, if you die in a church because you were unable to defend yourself, your eternal soul goes to heaven, right?

On the other hand, I prefer to be able to save my body and mortal life from harm as well. I'm not a churchgoer, but if I was, I would carry.

DocCas
July 13, 2010, 10:46 AM
Stats for deadly force incidents in churches/ministries from http://www.carlchinn.com/Church_Security_Concepts.html

Deadly Force Incidents (DFI's) at Faith-Based Organizations in the United States (includes suspicious deaths, suicides and deadly force protection)

DATA CURRENT for time period 1/1/1999 through7/12/2010

NUM %


327 Total Incidents


NUMBER OF DFI's WHERE THE "ATTACK RESULTED IN DEATH OF OTHERS" (ARDO)
161 49.24%

NUMBER OF ARDO's STOPPED IN PROCESS BY LAW ENFORCEMENT
5 3.11%

NUMBER OF ARDO's STOPPED IN PROCESS BY OTHERS
7 4.35%

NUMBER OF ARDO's NOT STOPPED UNTIL THE ATTACKER WAS FINISHED
149 92.55%

327 cases with 161 resulting in death in churches/ministries. Almost 93% went unchecked meaning, of course, that it was the innocent victums who paid the price.

I have pastored the same church for 25 years. CC and OC are welcome in my congregation any time. I carry daily.

Our society is broken. The police can't fix it. The politicians won't fix it. The Military is forbidden to fix it. It is up to us, "We the People."

indykappa
July 13, 2010, 11:28 AM
the OP is in north carolina, but i'm not sure where (i'm in charlotte). my buddy is cheap, and he's trying to find the cheapest place to take his CCW course. he found a church in dallas (near gastonia) that actually has a pistol range connected to the church!

not really on topic (a thousand apologies), but this sounds like my kinda church! :D

ol' scratch
July 13, 2010, 05:40 PM
I had an argument the other day with my mom and dad after church last sunday (we attend the same church) about concealed carrying to church. My argument was that when going to and leaving church you may need to protect yourself, possibly (however unlikely) in church as well. They stated that no one needed a gun in church.

Our church is in the middle of a pretty bad area. To be exact, most of the town has random bad areas in it due to old mill houses, apartments, and cheap housing areas springing up where ever they can. I know a few people who live in the area around the church. They abuse government programs, sell drugs, are too lazy to go the bathroom and save it up in bottles, and other random things that are both sick and highly criminal. The other week my car got keyed at church. Overall, I'd feel safer in the area (and alot of other places in town) concealed carrying. But apparantly my parents feel differently.

Our church is a Southern Baptist one, and therefore I'd expect them to be pro gun, but every event or trip they have has a strict no weapons policy. However, I'm not sure how'd they feel about me carrying a handgun during service.

What do you guys think about guns in church?

"This is similar to meth houses that
have been raided. Meth users called
“Tinkle Tweekers” even save their urine in
bottles stored in living areas to reclaim the
unmetabolized meth from the urine."

Taken from http://www.inspection-perfection.com/main/pages/meth%20lab%20signs.htm Also learned about this when I did research for an article. They save both urine and feces just in case they don't have enough cash to get high.

I think I would be packing (a firearm), or most likely looking for another church.

chaplain tom
July 14, 2010, 07:08 AM
This shooting happened in a First Baptist Church. The pastor was shot and killed and there was nothing anyone could do to stop it. The shooter could have killed many more people than he did. I remembered this being on the news and this thread reminded me of it. There are nut cases everywhere.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/08/church.shooting/index.html

Taurus 617 CCW
July 14, 2010, 07:58 AM
I have carried in church since 2003. My family knows, so does the pastor, but that's it. Rule #1 in a gunfight is to have a gun.

Mr.Davis
July 14, 2010, 11:25 PM
I have the same reservation about killing an unsaved person, but I wouldn't hesitate to do so if they were threatening the lives of my wife, my family, or those around me.

Sin may all be equal in God's eyes, but the consequences on Earth vary...some actions have virtually no consequences. Some have deadly consequences. If in position to stop a killer, attempt to stop them I will, regardless of their soul's possible condition.

Needless to say, I carry in church...religiously :D

JKHolman
July 16, 2010, 08:05 AM
My synagogue is largely anti-2A. I carry [no one knows].

- JKHolman

logical
July 16, 2010, 12:33 PM
Do what is legal and you feel is necessary and stop talking to people about it.

RevDerb
July 16, 2010, 12:48 PM
This shooting happened in a First Baptist Church. The pastor was shot and killed and there was nothing anyone could do to stop it. The shooter could have killed many more people than he did. I remembered this being on the news and this thread reminded me of it. There are nut cases everywhere.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/08/church.shooting/index.html
See post #61

mugsie
July 16, 2010, 08:18 PM
First of all it's concealed carry, so who has to know other than you? Secondly, if God wanted us to leave our guns at home he would have issued everyone a Taurus!

oldbanjo
July 16, 2010, 10:19 PM
I know of church's that the preachers family have guns in church w/permits.

AKElroy
July 16, 2010, 11:27 PM
It is private property. Ask the Elders for permission; they will make their views known. My Elders have asked me to carry. Half the congregation got licensed together when I renewed mine, and apparently they thought I was the only one that could shoot strait.

Lakeshore
July 17, 2010, 01:23 PM
Alberta King, the mother of Martin Luther King Jr., was murdered by a deranged gunman while sitting at the organ in the Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta in 1974.

An armed congregant may have been able to stop that attack. We'll never know. In any event that was nearly four decades ago and it's still illegal in Georgia to carry a firearm into a church even with a concealed carry permit. Go figure.

Low Budget Shooter
July 17, 2010, 04:25 PM
Dear THR,

Isn't it interesting how the various legislatures make laws restricting the carry of guns in the very places where they are most often used to kill the defenseless? Or is it the reverse of that---wherever the legislatures prohibit the carry of guns, those places become the most popular killing fields? In jurisdictions where carry is outlawed in virtually all places, or in all places for virtually everyone, the whole area becomes a killing field. Calling all government officials, all you have to do to reduce these kinds of gun rampages is to repeal all of your gun bans! Think of all the money you will save in metal detector equipment and such. You can all give yourselves a raise!

LBS

Webbj0219
July 17, 2010, 09:59 PM
put your trust in God; but mind to keep your powder dry Oliver cromwell

stevelyn
July 18, 2010, 10:19 AM
In all the church attacks there was no divine intervention or legions of angels to stop the attacks. Attacks that were mitigated were by prudent, prepared people. In churches where people were neither prudent or prepared, it was a bloodbath.

In Glock We Trust.

AKElroy
July 20, 2010, 10:15 PM
In all the church attacks there was no divine intervention or legions of angels to stop the attacks.

Of course their was. In Colorado, a well trained, well armed female security gaurd protected that congregation by virtue in my view of God's devine providence. Don't assume that God's protection is required to be miraculous. A well armed congregant may be the exact vessel he uses to provide his protection.

Hud
July 20, 2010, 10:49 PM
A well armed congregant may be the exact vessel he uses to provide his protection.

Doesn't have to be just the congregation....

LHRGunslinger
July 20, 2010, 10:59 PM
I'm not a christian but I do feel uncomfortable about bringing a weapon into a house of god. I'd take it to church, and then leave my weapon in my coat in the cloakroom or something of the like. But from my point of view bringing anything specifically designed to take life is strictly verboten. A pocket knife you use for every day tasks is fine but a handgun is a big no-no.

ArfinGreebly
July 21, 2010, 01:32 AM
For those who feel that "armed in church" is somehow the posture of the "ranting tin-foil hat" paranoid crowd, allow me to introduce you to a sprinkling of house-of-worship actions:

2010:
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0216/Police-cite-progress-in-church-shooting-case-in-Richmond-Calif
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/02/15/california.church.shooting/index.html

2009:
http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/Americas/2009/March/Latest-Church-Shooting-Underscores-the-Need-for-Security-.html

2008:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knoxville_Unitarian_Universalist_church_shooting

2007:
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=45077
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316322,00.html


And one of the more famous events, from 1993:
http://superstore.wnd.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=1960



Now, it would seem to me, given that these "events" aren't confined to one coast or the other, to the North or the South, to the mountains or the plains, that "armed in church" is simply a matter of prudence.

You are free, of course, to disarm yourself.



Me? I'm thinkin' a nice compact, discreet 9mm, with an 8-round mag and a 7-round spare.

The pastor's flock may be lambs, but there's no reason they should also be led to slaughter.

RevDerb
July 21, 2010, 05:50 AM
The idea that 'nobody needs a gun in church' is true, but only if you are satisfied with saving only your soul. After all, if you die in a church because you were unable to defend yourself, your eternal soul goes to heaven, right?

On the other hand, I prefer to be able to save my body and mortal life from harm as well. I'm not a churchgoer, but if I was, I would carry.
Sitting in church doesn't get you into heaven any more than sitting in the garage gets you into the winner's circle at Indy. The only ticket that will open the gates is faith in Jesus Christ and accepting His atoning work on the cross. Entrance into the Kingdom of heaven cannot be earned.

Sam1911
July 21, 2010, 07:08 AM
I know not everyone likes to read ... you know ... ALL the words in a thread, so I'll repeat what I said before:

While I appreciate those of the faith that have taken time to explain their interpretations of holy writ, religions discussions are not allowed here for reasons explained clearly in our forum rules.

So, please, respectfully, do not post any more commentary on whether the Bible/Jesus would want you to carry and/or defend yourself.

If we can stick to the LAW and whatever SOCIAL implications you find compelling, that's fine. If not, we'll have to close this down.


Understood?

Now, this...

I'm not a christian but I do feel uncomfortable about bringing a weapon into a house of god. I'd take it to church, and then leave my weapon in my coat in the cloakroom or something of the like. Is pretty bad advice in my opinion. If you go out into the world with a gun, you MUST retain control of it at all times. Leaving a gun in the cloakroom of any public place -- and certainly a church with kids and all kinds of other random folks wandering through -- is just HORRIBLY IRRESPONSIBLE. Even locking it in your car would be better! (Not good...but better.)

The safest place for your gun is in your holster. PERIOD. Leave it there. Once you leave your house, your sidearm should not leave the holster for any reason until you are home -- unless required by your local laws. Fooling with the gun, unholstering/reholstering, etc. is how negligent discharges happen in public places. This is "Concealed Carry Rules 101" stuff, but obviously many of "us" don't quite get it.

But from my point of view bringing anything specifically designed to take life is strictly verboten. A pocket knife you use for every day tasks is fine but a handgun is a big no-no. Again, this cannot become a discussion of religion, but a non-Christian claiming that the church (or God) forbids a defensive weapon seems to be both logically and historically suspect.

ol' scratch
July 21, 2010, 06:30 PM
I have solved the problem concerning carrying in church. I just don't go to church anymore. I have embraced my life of debauchery and sin. Look for me on Sundays at the range. It's more of a spiritual connection than going to church and listening to a stuffed shirt tell me how to interpret the Bible.

chaplain tom
August 1, 2010, 04:32 AM
Do what is legal and you feel is necessary and stop talking to people about it.
I agree with the "do what is legal" part of your post. But I feel we MUST continue to talk to people about this. Somebody has to try to educate people about 2A or we may lose it. When laws are wrong they are wrong and we must talk to people about the logic in changing those "bad" laws. I know we're preaching to the chior here, but we still need to get this message out. Maybe talking about it on forums like THR will give us insight we didn't have before the subject was brought up here. I know that I have learned a lot here on this site.

BBQLS1
August 1, 2010, 05:32 AM
Google "church shootings"

Cmiller21b
August 1, 2010, 07:02 AM
I carry regularly with the blessings of both of our pastors. They have ask that ccw and policemen carry to church in the wake of all of the church robberies and shootings. Come on over!

MinnMooney
August 2, 2010, 04:56 AM
I'd carry to any and all events and just not say anything - period.

Carter
August 2, 2010, 12:09 PM
Church pews suck when carrying IWB. If I wasnt careful my gun loudly banged on the back of the wooden pew..

TNT in Round Rock
August 2, 2010, 06:57 PM
Arfin thank you for those links .. I needed some examples just the other day ..

Deltaboy
August 2, 2010, 07:38 PM
As a SBC Pastor I carry and love that several of my LEO's carry also. Churches need to wake up and in states where their is issues they need to form legal Security squads. I have known of churchs who were robbed in the hallway as the offering was being taken to the office. We have 2 armed LEO's in plain clothes that escort the money bag to the safe. After services they escort the CFO to the bank for the deposit.

Ryder
August 2, 2010, 07:38 PM
I would request the permission of the preacher in order to attend with a clear conscience. If that is not agreeable I would avoid the place.

gun guy
August 3, 2010, 02:23 AM
It wouldn't surprise me if the framers of the constitution took guns to church, I'm sure in days gone by guns showed up at churches. if its concealed, no one knows you have it anyway. It probably depends a lot on the folks that attend, the area and threat level you are in and personal common sense.

Brass Rain
August 3, 2010, 02:42 AM
I think there's some kind of inherent belief that churches are gun free zones without the sign. That there's some kind of amnesty of churches from maniacs on shooting sprees, and therefore no good people need to carry their firearms inside for protection. But that's silly. Maniacs can pop up in churches just as easily as convenience stores, banks, or schools. And if you're legally able to do it, I see absolutely no reason not to. Especially in a neighborhood like you described.

oldbanjo
August 3, 2010, 07:37 PM
I think if you were to look at the old laws, at least in the south it was required for church goers to carry their gun to church, for protection from Indians. I was at a funeral home one night and a friend said its nice to see you without your gun, I laughed and said why do you think I have a sport coat on for, it's to cover my gun, his wife (a cop) felt my coat and laughed. If there's no metal detector I carry my gun, except Gov. bldgs.

Carter
August 29, 2010, 03:26 PM
Well since I started this thread I guess I should update the situation for a little closure...

Since getting my concealed carry the church has decided to get a security team, which I promptly volunteered for. The pastor and us came up with various rules and we got on the subject of what to do during different emergencies. I brought up church shootings and that they were only ever stopped by the shooter running out of ammo or someone in the church who was carrying putting them down. The pastor replied by saying he knew a lot of people carried at his old church and he assumed the same here. He also stated he didn't mind.

That brought about an interesting story from him. At his old church they had motion sensors as a part of their alarm system. One night it went off saying there was an intruder in the building. 10 or more church members showed up armed better than most swat teams and raided the church to find out it was a balloon moving around.


Due to my conceal carry class, currently going though BLET training, and understanding of applicable laws I got put in charge of teaching everyone what they can and can not do...fun stuff.


Overall it turned out good. When your preacher shows up to the church with a shotgun to clear it when they think someone is inside I'm pretty sure me carrying is rather acceptable.

Buck Snort
August 30, 2010, 12:33 AM
My church gave away a Daniel Defense M4 with an Aimpoint after service a few weeks ago. They also had an organized CCW class amongst it members. I love my church.
DAMN!! That's almost enough to make me take up religion!!

stevelyn
August 30, 2010, 04:42 AM
Of course their was. In Colorado, a well trained, well armed female security gaurd protected that congregation by virtue in my view of God's devine providence. Don't assume that God's protection is required to be miraculous. A well armed congregant may be the exact vessel he uses to provide his protection.

That was the point I was trying to make.......helping those that help themselves and such. Sometimes the translation is lost in the written word. :)

dogsoldier0513
August 30, 2010, 09:18 AM
My ex and I used to have the same argument. She claimed 'God would protect her' at church. I countered with 'God gave me the sense to know WHEN/WHERE to CCW. Needless to say, I CCW to church as does my new wife. :)

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