We lose everyone's guns! (Israeli Secret Service loses pistols.)


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mugsie
July 7, 2010, 06:54 AM
A suitcase belonging to the Israeli Secret Service entourage traveling with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to Washington, was accidentally (or not )sent to Los Angeles instead. When it was located and opened in L.A a box with 4 guns were missing.



http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/07/07/dude-wheres-my-gun/

No one is immune!

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wishin
July 7, 2010, 07:10 AM
That must have been a pretty big suitcase holding a box with four guns in it!

heron
July 7, 2010, 10:25 AM
Why are they carrying Glocks? The Israelis manufacture plenty of their own high-quality weapons.

longdayjake
July 7, 2010, 10:55 AM
The Israelis manufacture plenty of their own high-quality weapons.

I may just be reading your post wrong but it felt like you were saying that glocks are low-quality and not worth using. Well, though they have their drawbacks, there is a reason most every police force around the world uses glocks. I think its because they have a tendency to go bang every time. I have shot every common semi auto sold in the US and I can say that the Glock is by far the most reliable of all of them. The HK is a close second. Don't take this to mean I am a glock lover. I am just giving my experience.

zoom6zoom
July 7, 2010, 10:59 AM
I think his point was that the Israelis have great pride in their domestic arms designs, so it's surprising that they would outsource. The other thing you have to remember is that to a "journalist", every pistol is a Glock and every rifle is an AK-47.

longdayjake
July 7, 2010, 11:07 AM
I can accept that. What high quality semi auto pistol does Israel make?

Ala Dan
July 7, 2010, 11:18 AM
I bet'cha they were Glock model 18's~! ;) :D

dennisuello
July 7, 2010, 11:22 AM
IWI Jericho (steel and polymer frame models)
http://www.israel-weapon.com/files/Galleries/PolymerJericho/rpsl.jpg
http://www.israel-weapon.com/files/Galleries/StellJericho/rpage3.jpg

IWI Jericho B
http://www.israel-weapon.com/files/Galleries/JerichoB/jerichobside2.jpg

IWI SP-21
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/barak.jpg

BUL Cherokee
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/bul_cherokee_fs.jpg

BUL Storm
http://guns4u.info/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/bulstorm.jpg

swiftak
July 7, 2010, 04:16 PM
Does the Israeli PM travel commercial. I wouldn't think so. Why does his security have to check their weapons?

Hatterasguy
July 7, 2010, 05:26 PM
I'm surprised they were not Jericho's.

unspellable
July 7, 2010, 06:18 PM
My Glock jammed. I have to admit it was more the fault of the ammo than the pistol. Factory round would not chamber, even manually. Had the same problem with my Winchester '94. Factory ammo is NOT infallible.

unspellable
July 7, 2010, 06:19 PM
Back to the topic. I wonder how deep they will dig to get to the bottom of this?

22-rimfire
July 7, 2010, 06:32 PM
I think his point was that the Israelis have great pride in their domestic arms designs, so it's surprising that they would outsource.

We used to take pride too.... that explains the US Military using Beretta 92F's instead of a US design.

Anyway, I would imagine some of the security folks traveled regular commercial and may well have come early to make sure that the hotel security was up to par. Stuff happens.

You should see all the advance stuff that is done prior to the President staying in a hotel. Lots of regular police and the Secret Sevice folks. They are at the hotel at least a day prior to the President's arrival. I ran into them once at a hotel in Austin TX. I decided to stay elsewhere.

DustyVermonter
July 8, 2010, 02:44 AM
Quote: "What kind of high quality semi-auto pistols does isreal make"?

Magnum Reasearch's Desert Eagles and Baby Eagles would probably be the most notable, I know Uzi's are not semi- auto but they are surely one of Isreal's prided weapons. Isreali's don't play, there's definitely something to be said for a handheld weapon that can shoot 10 .44magnum rounds accurately out to 100 yards. You can hunt elephants with the damn things.

Gryffydd
July 8, 2010, 03:21 AM
The guns, which are Glock semi-automatic pistols, used by Israel and other security services in the world are known for their accuracy and low maintenance.
I know they're plenty accurate, but it's not really what they're "known for".

I may just be reading your post wrong but it felt like you were saying that glocks are low-quality and not worth using
Where did you get that? To me it sounded like he was saying the Glocks are high quality, by saying Israel also makes high quality weapons--as in the emphasis on "their own".

here is a reason most every police force around the world uses glocks
A lot? Absolutely. "Most every"? I don't know about that...

wideym
July 8, 2010, 03:58 AM
I wasn't immune either, I had a Colt Trooper stolen at LAX while flying home from Alaska and one of my friends had his Glock 17 stolen there also.

desmo21
July 8, 2010, 09:15 AM
Magnum Reasearch was purchased by Kahr... :confused:

22-rimfire
July 8, 2010, 10:35 AM
But Magnum Research imports the Israeli guns and does not build them.

FLAvalanche
July 8, 2010, 12:03 PM
I wasn't immune either, I had a Colt Trooper stolen at LAX while flying home from Alaska and one of my friends had his Glock 17 stolen there also.
These weren't stolen at LAX. These were stolen in D.C. and the luggage they were contained in was sent to LAX.

Cosmoline
July 8, 2010, 12:44 PM
Does the Israeli PM travel commercial.

When Obama invites him, he gets to fly coach in the middle seat between two huge men. His bodyguards get their guns stolen. And he has to enter the White House through the service entrance next to the huge stack of garbage. They're not exactly friendly with each other.

W.E.G.
July 8, 2010, 05:17 PM
They should have watched Deviant before packing.

http://vimeo.com/3923535

beeenbag
July 8, 2010, 05:18 PM
Why are they carrying Glocks? The Israelis manufacture plenty of their own high-quality weapons.


Iono, why do U.S. leos carry glocks when S&W make guns, why does the United States military carry an Italian made gun?

KodiakBeer
July 8, 2010, 05:50 PM
This is just one more reason to buy a Glock. If it gets stolen, it's only a Glock....

Ky Larry
July 8, 2010, 07:27 PM
Does anyone know where the guns were stolen? Just curious about wheather the theives were customs agents, Homeland Security, baggage handlers, airport security, etc.

SharpsDressedMan
July 8, 2010, 07:28 PM
I wouldn't want to be the ones holding those guns. I wouldn't want the Mossad coming to my house to retrieve their guns. The FBI is one thing, but the Israelis deal with things differently...........:uhoh:

Gryffydd
July 8, 2010, 08:00 PM
The FBI is one thing, but the Israelis deal with things differently.
Yeah, their methods are more in line with the ATF's. :evil:

gunnutery
July 8, 2010, 08:04 PM
I think it was funny the journalist had to declare that the gun pictured was not one of the actual missing guns. Appearently they didn't want conclussions drawn about them.

whalerman
July 9, 2010, 12:05 AM
I've heard all the trash talk about Glocks. Oh they're plastic. They're not accurate. They don't feel like a real gun. They don't feel like my old .45apc., they don't feel like my old .357. They're no Sigs.They're no HK's. They're no Colts. ...the claims are endless. But Glock does something better than all thte others. They are more reliable with more types of ammo than anystock weapon around. The action is the action, even when shooting very different models and calibers. That helps with training and mastering different models. They always go boom. They may not be the most accurate pistol around, always going boom makes up for a 1/4" drift at 25 yards. They are easier to maintain and fix. They are lighter to carry and are oblivious to moisture. A trained armorer can keep en entire department's guns in perfect operating order with an easily followed training program.You don't even need tools, well, you need one, to maintain glock pistols.

Do you think this is at all connected with why the Israel's use Glock's for Mossad operations? It seems that despite many peoples' prejudices against Glocks there many good reasons for choosing them.

Deltaboy
July 9, 2010, 10:34 AM
Sad they lost the mans Guns when he is a PM of a Country!

Standin
July 9, 2010, 11:36 AM
I move that we the members of the firing line;
On behalf of Mayor Daley and the city of Chicago;
In the Spirit of the 2nd A'ment;
With All the Love of the White House;
To bring peace in the middle east;
REPLACE THE LOST GUNS (WITH GLOCKS MAYBE!!!?) I will add a box of bullets.

Standin
July 9, 2010, 11:47 AM
I think that This is a great Idea I will start it as a new Post

FIVETWOSEVEN
July 9, 2010, 12:00 PM
I wonder if Obama had someone take the pistols to hassle him.

pacerdude
July 10, 2010, 09:18 PM
I cant believe anyone was stupid enough to steal guns belong to Israeli Mossad! Havent they seen Ziva on NCIS, oh and that movie Munich. Seriously though, I hope they get to the bottom of this. Losing an allied nation's secret service's pistols, doesn't look very good.

Ignition Override
July 11, 2010, 12:25 AM
The Mossad has no jurisdiction in the US, at least not officially.

amram
July 11, 2010, 08:10 AM
I wouldn't be too surprised if the Obama admin. was behind the "theft"! Otherwise the Mossad will find the thieves and kill them -- wherever they are. Now, or in 20 years. The Jews have looong memories.

smallbore
July 11, 2010, 08:52 AM
Not uncommon for members of VIP team to travel seperately. Sounds like an inside job that was perpetrated by airline employees. Wonder how closely the TSA monitors what goes on behind the scenes. As for the perps. .find/arrrest them and turn them over to the Israelis for trial.
As for leo's & Glocks. . .all about the cost. Military & Berreta. . .I'm putting my $ on the influence of the UN.

Blue Brick
July 11, 2010, 01:04 PM
They always go boom.

Yup and sometimes in your face and hands.

Gord
July 11, 2010, 03:07 PM
That's what she said.

crossrhodes
July 11, 2010, 05:10 PM
OK. did I miss some thing? I didn't see anywhere in this thread that said they were Glocks. And how did it go from lost firearms to Glock bashing???...

N003k
July 11, 2010, 05:20 PM
The article said they were Glocks

The guns, which are Glock semi-automatic pistols, used by Israel and other security services in the world are known for their accuracy and low maintenance.

As for me...I've actually never even fired a Glock, though, the folks at the LGS let me get the feel for a few.

Blue Brick
July 11, 2010, 06:29 PM
That's what she said.

LMAO

whalerman
July 11, 2010, 08:56 PM
Mr Bluebrick, any examples of these malfunctions or are you just talking?
One of the things that makes this a great site is that people, for the most part, don't just say stuff without anything to back it up. I have never heard of a Glock going boom in a persons face or hands.
I'm LMAO too.

Blue Brick
July 11, 2010, 09:54 PM
If you honestly have never heard of any issues…..use the Advance search button at the top the screen and enter in the search field “KBOOM” also try a Google search. There have been too many documented (in national news papers) cases of law enforcement officers that have been injured when they were qualifying with Glock pistols. But lets not hijack this thread away from the OP, there are plenty if Glock threads already. :)

whalerman
July 12, 2010, 12:30 AM
As a Glock instructor and armorer for over ten years, I have never heard of a single case of weapon malfunction that wasn't tied to ammunition. I'll look into it, then report back. But I think you and I both know where this is going. If they were dangerous huge percentages of the nations police organizations wouldn't be using them. Liability and safety is all our teams of lawyers really care about. If there were any truth to your verbage, they'd be right on top of it. I have heard that our Glocks are suspected of stealing donuts out of rookie lunchboxes. Apparantly, the jelly ends up in the double stacked magazine and if the gun hasn't time to digest its treat, it can effect weapon readiness. If you have any up do date info on that threat, please pass it along. We have a zero tolerance for jelly thieving fried cakes, no matter what Department we work for.

F-Body Demon
July 12, 2010, 03:40 AM
Great. This makes us look ignorant AND like theives!

jdh
July 12, 2010, 08:34 AM
whalerman,

Yahoo only gives 58,000+ results for "glock kaboom"

Unsupported chambers do cause some "kabooms" even with fresh factory ammo. While they are not the spawn of the devil, glocks are not "Perfection" either.

crossrhodes
July 12, 2010, 11:24 AM
The only glocks I have witness to and seen reports of, where largely in/ but not limited to 40 cal. They failed the DOJ test many years back when then called Immigration was looking for an auto to replace it's revolvers. Some seem to think that it was caused by glock converting 9mm barrels to 40 cal, thus making the barrels thinner and weaker. But what interest me is that mostly the 40 and very little on 10mm and 45cal going kaboom.
But IMHO, the Glock, S&W M&P and the XD are all fine firearms and it come down to preference, my preference is the M&P. It's a little more Kaboom survivable.

Armorer.
Colt
Sig
S&W
Former DHS Field armorer.
Glock
H&K
Beretta
Remington
But it does'nt mean I'm an expert, just a lttle insight.

unspellable
July 12, 2010, 07:56 PM
At the risk of wandering off topic again, I wonder if we hear more kaboom stories involving 40 S&W than 10 mm because most of today's 10 mm is rather downloaded.

Of course down loading doesn't always mean less pressure. The factories have a tendency to use a faster powder for reduced loads, at least in shotshells. Saves a pinch of powder, that adds up over two million rounds.

Zoogster
July 12, 2010, 08:18 PM
At the risk of wandering off topic again, I wonder if we hear more kaboom stories involving 40 S&W than 10 mm because most of today's 10 mm is rather downloaded.


No the reason there is little 10mm kabooms is because all Glocks are based on either a 10mm Auto or 9mm Parabellum frame.
In fact Glock is one of the only handgun makers that created a production frame for 10mm, most simply used a .45 in 10mm for production.

The result is while Glocks are made to have loose chambers for reliability (which gives less case support) those two calibers are much safer because the cartridge is fed at the angle that gives the original intended amount of support.

Other calibers feed at angles not originally intended, and the result is the ramp that goes to the chamber is at an angle to give reliable feeding that gives even less case support than originally intended in the Glock design.
For example for a .40 caliber cartridge to feed in a 9mm frame within the same space, the ramp is opened up more to give the same level of reliable feeding for the wider round.
The 10mm frames are different, and designed to feed the longer 10mm cartridge at the proper angle. But the 10mm Auto guns were not designed to feed the short and fat .45 ACP at the ideal angle either.
Though since the 10mm is longer, there is enough extra space in the design to typically accommodate adapting to the shorter but wider round with about the intended support, and the margin of safety is wider considering it operates on much lower pressure.

So the 9mm and 10mm designs are typically the safest.
Some other calibers adapt well, and some not so much.
The .40S&W in 9mm seems to have a lot of the trouble.
The 9mm frames chambered in 9mm were a lot safer when most departments were using them.
Still, it is one of the most popular issued firearms, and so the number of problems must be considered relative to the number issued.
The percentage of problems even in the less ideal calibers is not very high, and if compared with similar guns you find a similar percentage of problems.

Granted an exploding polymer gun typically ends up worse than an exploding steel gun because once the explosive pressure is loose it does more damage to polymer than steel. Some polymer designs also direct the force of a chamber that blows out the bottom (near the ramp) differently. Some designs from different manufacturers will send the majority of the pressure in different directions. Some straight into the trigger finger, others mostly down the magazine well. Others allow more out the side of the grip where other fingers would be.
This includes the polymer designs of many manufacturers.
Personally I think the path of least resistance should be designed into a gun to cause the least injury to the shooter in the event of such a problem.
Whether the problem is from ammo or not.
Reinforcing some areas would help with this.

NMGonzo
July 12, 2010, 08:23 PM
The Israeli PM crossed the Potomac and lost his guns while fishing?

Say isn't so.

TrickyDick
July 12, 2010, 08:41 PM
Wow! There's a Glock war going on in a room talking about stolen weapons. I remain neutral on the Glock issue, However Can we stay on topic about how a nation's ally managed to lose weapons belonging to a High profile person's security? I am actually thinking that the White House is behind it, I mean look what they've done to another close ally, Britain. The British gave Obama a nice thoughtful gift, and in return he gave them a collection of crappy DVD "classics", the same thing you get from a 3rd world street vendor. What a slap in the face!

Zoogster
July 12, 2010, 08:51 PM
I seriously doubt the government is going through the trouble to harass them.
More likely some punk working in baggage somewhere along the route stole some guns just like they probably have stolen expensive items from less important people.

For all you know they may have even sent the baggage to the other side of the country to cover up the theft.

Someone somewhere opened it up, and stole the guns according to the story. I don't know what else was in the bag, but if there was more and it was not missing, then the box with guns didn't just fall out leaving the other stuff.
If it did fall out then other stuff would have as well, and a box of serial numbered guns would turn up.
If the bag was closed then at some point it was opened, the gun case stolen, and the bag closed again.

These all sound like scenarios more likely involving someone employed who has contact with baggage.

speaksoftly
July 12, 2010, 09:32 PM
So disappointing to open a thread hoping to read about my fellow Jews going after the pistol pilferers and only getting to hear the age old "my glock's better than your (insert any other pistol here)" argument. I would imagine that the Israeli's use Glocks for the same reason that the US military contracted for Beretta 92's. Money.

4v50 Gary
July 12, 2010, 09:34 PM
AA (Armaments Anonymous) - stealing guns more successfully than the TSA (Take Stuff Away).

crossrhodes
July 12, 2010, 10:22 PM
Good to Go. That was some good info on the feed and frame design. You are the first one I heard explain it clearly and concisely with out a bunch of "I'm a rocket scientist" yada yada. Thank you.

earlthegoat2
July 12, 2010, 10:34 PM
the failure will be checked and conclusions will be drawn.

Im sure they also have Top Men working on it.

Who?

Top Men.

ArfinGreebly
July 12, 2010, 11:45 PM
You have to pause between the words "top" and "men" in the second iteration.

Top . . . Men.

And it helps if you say it with a pipe jammed in your mouth.

earlthegoat2
July 12, 2010, 11:59 PM
If you have ever seen the episode of "How do they do it?" on the Science Channel about how baggage gets from the point where you check it to your destination, it looks like the warehouse in a twisted way. As in, I have no clue how more bags are not lost in air travel with that messed up system they have. It is like a labrynth of conveyors and chutes.

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