Does anyone actually do this? (From Gundigest)


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zombienerd
July 8, 2010, 07:06 AM
Now introducing "Home boy sights for your AR-15"

http://gundigest.com/article/GunDigest-09-17-09-Sighting-options-AR-15/

I'm all for finding quicker ways to get on target, but the picture just made me laugh as loud as I could. It just looks ridiculous.

http://gundigest.com/upload/images/2009%20Images/Shooting-JP-sight_450.jpg

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ultradoc
July 8, 2010, 07:22 AM
I have seen a pic of a pistol with Home boy sights on it. Makes ya wonder.

Sav .250
July 8, 2010, 07:23 AM
Different strokes for different folks.

Sam1911
July 8, 2010, 07:24 AM
I've seen a number of 3-gun competition carbines set up with back-up or close range sights set at an angle to the primary optic. The idea is that as you move through a stage you can shift almost instantly between two or even three sighting systems, depending on range -vs.- speed -vs.- precision of the shot.

A "race" AR might have a 4x scope set up low on the flat-top rail, a red-dot or holo-sight mounted on top of that scope tube as a close-range speed sight, and a short iron-sight rail mounted on an angle to one side. If something fails, or just isn't optimal for a particular shot, you can rotate the gun slightly and make the shot with a different sight. Much faster than hitting your QD scope mount levers, removing and stowing the scope, raising your BUIS and getting back on target.

Justin and some of the more serious 3-gun competitors can probably give you a more complete explanation.

Hunterdad
July 8, 2010, 07:36 AM
Here are the HB sights for you Glock 19

http://www.castlerocktactical.com/images/colo4x4/HomeBoy.jpg

Sam1911
July 8, 2010, 07:39 AM
As funny as the Glock sights ad is (or was when it was first posted ... like 7 years ago), that's not what's going on in that picture.

There is a practical reason for having sights set up like that on a carbine as explained above. The name is just a humorous bon mot.

zombienerd
July 8, 2010, 07:53 AM
I've seen a number of 3-gun competition carbines set up with back-up or close range sights set at an angle to the primary optic. The idea is that as you move through a stage you can shift almost instantly between two or even three sighting systems, depending on range -vs.- speed -vs.- precision of the shot.

It makes sense. I can see why one would do it, it just looks so... Awkward.

I would have never thought of putting a BUIS system on a side rail and turning the gun on it's side... Looks uncomfortable.

I was just wondering how often people do it, if you're saying you've seen this on a regular basis at competition, that's interesting. Makes me wonder how many people have brass land down their collar, and if being closer to the ejection port causes any "discomfort" with the angle of the powder discharge. Any burned noses?

bannockburn
July 8, 2010, 10:04 AM
I think my greatest concern would also be where is that hot brass going to go when the rifle is held on its side like that. Other than that, the multiple sighting planes makes a good deal of practical sense. Semper Paratus.

ny32182
July 8, 2010, 10:11 AM
Left handed shooters, or anyone shooting from the weak side are used to having their face near the ejection port anyway... not a problem; not even noticable if you do it all the time. There are even certain advantages to it.

SlamFire1
July 8, 2010, 10:20 AM
I have shot my revolvers and M1911's Home Boy style, and you can still place your shots if you use your sights.

I have no idea why the guy is holding his rifle sideways, but it will still function, and for the distances he is shooting, it won't make much of a difference in point of impact.

Never tried such a thing at 600 yards. Don't know how I would arrange the sling for one thing.

TX1911fan
July 8, 2010, 10:25 AM
http://www.dueckdefense.com/store/shopdisplayproducts.asp?search=yes&bc=no&CatalogId=3

These are made specifically for three gun and similar challenges. Allows you to have irons for short range, scope for long range, and use the same gun. Or irons for back up should your primary scope fail.

Mt Shooter
July 8, 2010, 10:50 AM
I have no idea why the guy is holding his rifle sideways, but it will still function, and for the distances he is shooting, it won't make much of a difference in point of impact.


Look at the picture, up on the fore end mounted to the quad rail is a non magnifying red dot. On the top is a Scope of unknown X power, going to guess at a 4X. The scope is for long range the red dot gives quick target finds at closer distances. A few guys use this for 3 gun, I use something along the same idea only its mounted on the top only. I have a Trijicon red dot non magnifying, behind that is a Larue flip up "poor boy" 3 X I can quickly switch them for close or far shots depending. I have my switches planned out during my walk through.

speaksoftly
July 8, 2010, 10:53 AM
I've seen it in 3 gun quite a bit. The glock, on the other hand, is just freakin hilarious! Haha

Spencer_OKC
July 8, 2010, 11:40 AM
Another image of an offset mount close quarters optic.

http://static.flickr.com/3500/3905418263_38927e1763.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2530/3905404689_42eb73683c.jpg

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/1430/68buis.jpg

Rail Driver
July 8, 2010, 11:52 AM
When shooting from an odd position or angle, or from under or around cover you can't always hold your rifle in a vertical orientation. The offset sights allow for a much easier and more accurate shot than shooting "from the hip" because you can't get a proper sight picture, or cheek weld due to position or obstructions such as shooting under a car or around the end of your couch for instance.

Hatterasguy
July 8, 2010, 11:56 AM
I shot my 1911 home boy style once since it was my birthday. It just looks so cool.:D

xcgates
July 8, 2010, 11:59 AM
NY32182
Left handed shooters, or anyone shooting from the weak side are used to having their face near the ejection port anyway... not a problem; not even noticable if you do it all the time. There are even certain advantages to it.

Speaking as a southpaw, what? I've only shot a couple autoloading rifles, and even that was a couple years ago, but how can there be advantages?

Ithaca37
July 8, 2010, 06:46 PM
Speaking as a southpaw, what? I've only shot a couple autoloading rifles, and even that was a couple years ago, but how can there be advantages?

Operate a kalashnikov right and then left handed and you will see.

winchester '97
July 8, 2010, 09:06 PM
Im assuming that they act as secondary sights when you lean around a corner for whatever reason? the pistol sights make me wonder...

browningguy
July 8, 2010, 09:10 PM
Yes, those are quite popular and usefull among serious 3 gun competitors.

taliv
July 8, 2010, 09:21 PM
i had one setup like that for a while, although i didn't have to cant my gun nearly as far as the pic in the OP... more like the pic in post 14.

Mightee1
July 8, 2010, 09:47 PM
As an Industrial Engineer who specializes in ergonomic evaluations, I would tend to think that this type of aiming system would be fairly effective. If you hold an imaginary gun (try to imagine a standard AR configuration) the way you normally shoot, your right elbow is tucked into your ribcage. Let that elbow float to where it is most comfortable… and ‘Bam’… the angle of the trigger grip would make the aiming configuration in the picture seem natural.

On the flip side of the coin… while the trigger finger / hand / arm is in a more comfortable position, the left hand, which supports the weight of the firearm, is more subject to fatigue. That fatigue is what leads to poor accuracy and an unsteady muzzle.

Overall, I would think the change would be for someone who wants to draw attention to themselves at the range. The sight picture orientation change would not cause more than a minimal (nearly non-existent) improvement in accuracy.

Note: the above analysis was base solely on the inspection of the picture. I have never seen nor hear-of any such aiming configurations.

ClickClickD'oh
July 8, 2010, 09:53 PM
Considering the rig he is wearing, it's most certainly a 3 gun setup.

marv
July 8, 2010, 09:58 PM
Try going prone with that mag sticking out a foot or so and you'll see the reason for a side mount sight.

coloradokevin
July 8, 2010, 10:04 PM
Ehhh... Call me the only skeptic in this group if you'd like, but I don't see much need for this outside of (maybe) the competition arena. I operate with a rifle for work, and I've never had enough problems negotiating corners/cover that I would see a need for a such a system. As for the short vs. long range sighting systems, I consider that argument to be moot. An AR-15 can easily be deployed to 500 yards with iron sights, let alone with some type of optic (my gun wears an Eotech).

Items used in competition are not always the same as on the street. I haven't competed much in events that use carbine rifles, so I'll leave that aspect of this sight system discussion to the more experienced 3-gunners among us. But, on the street (or on a battle field) I believe that simple is often better. Some of the guys in my department have rifles that look to have nearly 20lbs worth of useless crap hanging off of them. My rifle is setup with an Eotech, a flashlight, and a sling. The rifle also wears a set of Troy flip up sights, but I don't consider this redundancy entirely necessary in police work... Either system works fine on its own merits.

But, hey, everyone can spend their money as they choose, and if I ever see one of you guys at the range with a setup like this, you can be sure that I'll ask to try it out :)

oldfool
July 8, 2010, 10:10 PM
Considering the rig he is wearing, it's most certainly a 3 gun setup.
agreed
I cannot really relate to it
but I would bet the family farm that guy ain't "Gecko", and he ain't some "I am from the internet" guy

people who shoot Olympic class target pistols, and $10K custom built BR50 rimfire rifles , and pro-class 3 gun, etc., etc.
ain't me
but they do what they do for very real reasons

gangbangers from the hood they ain't

Sam1911
July 9, 2010, 08:27 AM
people who shoot Olympic class target pistols, and $10K custom built BR50 rimfire rifles , and pro-class 3 gun, etc., etc. ain't me but they do what they do for very real reasons


Very well said. Competition shooting is a bit like Indy car racing. Competitors will spend lots of money chasing smaller and smaller advantages. If someone thinks up some really crazy idea and it works well for them today, tomorrow everyone has one. Next year, either the fad has passed, or everyone's decided that it's the "only" way to go. It's kind of an accelerated, grass-roots concept testing arena. In the end, maybe only 25% of the stuff that competitors use really trickles down to the "street." (Too fragile, too bulky, too expensive, whatever.) But the entire shooting "culture" benefits (eventually) from their ragged-edge shenanigans.

Legionnaire
July 9, 2010, 11:21 AM
Seems like the setup accomplishes a similar thing to the "see through" scope rings on lever-action carbines that so many (I'll admit it, self included) have scoffed at. So it's not really a new idea at all; just a new implementation.

oldfool
July 9, 2010, 01:00 PM
yep, what Sam said

despite all the hype culture re: "new and improved", it doesn't happen all that often, not in really big ways... but the little ways do add up
think about it, and my bet is that every shooter has benefited in ways they don't oft think about

if not for "wildcatters", I would not know and love the 357 mag (etc.) cartridge
if not for the speed on steel handgun shooters, I would not have red dots on some of my (only slightly weird) setups
if not for the competition shotgunners, I would not have fiber optics on some of my (only slightly weird) setups
if not for the long range BR rifle competitors, I would not have 20X or higher scopes on some of my setups (even though I don't shoot past 100 yards, only slightly weird, but fun)
if not for the CAS/SASS guys, finding affordable 357 leveractions would be mighty tough

If not for all those serious competition guys, joe-average-me would be missing a lot that I value in shooting
We might sometime give the hard core comp guys a little attitude
but we owe 'em all a lot
they don't owe joe-average-me a doggone thing

hso
July 9, 2010, 01:01 PM
http://yankeehill.bizland.com/store/media/Angle_Mounts.jpg

Pretty common and pretty commonly used in matches where a reflex sight and telescopic sights are used during the course of fire.

Justin
July 9, 2010, 01:20 PM
Offset iron sights like that are much, much faster on close range targets than using a magnified optic, and obviously the magnified optic is going to be much more effective for engaging targets at distances out to 500+ yards.

The biggest disadvantage with offset irons, however, is that they can snag on stuff. That said, such a setup is still quite popular among Tactical or Limited Division 3Gun competitors, and will likely continue to be widely adopted until the new scope designs that go from 1x-8x come online in a big way.

Currently, these are the configurations that a lot of Tactical/Limited Division shooters use for their rifles:
-Fixed magnification optic with offset irons as pictured.
-Variable 1-4x scope such as a Schmidt & Bender Short Dot.
-Fixed magnification optic with an occluded eye scope cover. (This is what I run.)

Try going prone with that mag sticking out a foot or so and you'll see the reason for a side mount sight.

I can and have gone prone with an extended mag in my AR, and while it looks awkward, it's not the herculean task so many people seem to think it is.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_OEmBa9Mf4x8/S0OyQ_ZH9aI/AAAAAAAABFw/yYDJKsOjF6U/s400/IMG_3972.JPG


An AR-15 can easily be deployed to 500 yards with iron sights, let alone with some type of optic (my gun wears an Eotech).

AR's can and are effectively deployed with iron sights out to 600 yards. High Power shooters do this regularly. However, in my experience and observations, when shooting under field conditions to medium and long distance a magnified optic is much, much more effective, allowing the shooter a higher probability of first round hits, as well as making it easier to make corrections for follow-up shots.

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