The Hi-Point Throwdown


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Justin42
August 5, 2010, 11:40 PM
This thread is great. I haven't had much experience with their pistols, but I do own the 995. This was the first rifle I had ever purchased. You here alot of people bashing the company (and many sticking up for it). When they bash it, it's the usual "for more money...", "for self defense...", but not enough of "for a gun to have fun with and go out plinking."

I owe a lot to my 995 for laying down the proper gun handling building blocks. I've had nothing but fun with that gun. From experience, thier warranty has been awesome. I lost a set screw for the front sight assembly. I contacted them to find out how to get a replacement, and even though it was my own fault, they sent me a whole new assembly as well as a few targets of osama bin laden and sadam hussein. I thought that was pretty cool.

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Girodin
August 6, 2010, 12:56 AM
To me, a $150 995 9mm Carbine offers a level of defense FAR in excess of the expenditure of cash required to own one, and is far more sensible a home defense selection if one can truly only afford a single firearm. Honestly i would rather have a 995 Carbine than a $2000 1911 for home defense/SHTF if it was my only firearm.

I wouldn't. If I only could have one gun I would want a pistol because it is easier to keep on my person at all times. Try carrying a long gun around the house all day it is a PIA and very soon you start just leaving it. Since I can not assure I'll have the opportunity to walk across the house to get it when I need a gun I prefer to have one I can keep on me.

valorius
August 6, 2010, 01:18 AM
90+% of the general firearms owning public probably does not carry a gun around the house with them unless they heard a bump or bang or a crash in the night, or whatever else.

However if you are one of the people that do, clearly you'd be better served with the pistol, at least until you actually had to use it.

If you're one of the 90%+ (admittedly my own guesstimate figure), the 995 is a far more potent weapon than almost any pistol.

I bought a 995 for my 11yo god son. He is a novice shooter, but i can tell you that you'd not want to be anywhere near him with evil intent when he has a locked and loaded 995 on his person. Out to about 15 yards he can put bullet after bullet through the same jagged hole. At that range with a pistol, he's lucky to hit the target, honestly.

Girodin
August 6, 2010, 04:50 AM
90+% of the general firearms owning public probably does not carry a gun around the house with them unless they heard a bump or bang or a crash in the night, or whatever else.


Just because it is what most people do does not mean it is sage or the best idea. It is bloody unlikely that one will need a gun in their home for defense but should it happen it would sure be nice to have instant access to it. Having a gun one cannot reach is not better than having no gun at all.

However if you are one of the people that do, clearly you'd be better served with the pistol, at least until you actually had to use it.


When it comes time to use it one is better served by a weapon he or she actually has access to. They are better served by the pistol in hand than the uber ultra death ray in the closet upstairs or down the hall. There is no question I would rather have a long gun in a gun fight. Of course if I have time to go get a long gun I'd reach for any number of long guns before I took one of my 9mm carbines (I've owned two hi points). If it were to be something in the high points price range it would be a pump shotgun.

I bought a 995 for my 11yo god son. He is a novice shooter, but i can tell you that you'd not want to be anywhere near him with evil intent when he has a locked and loaded 995 on his person. Out to about 15 yards he can put bullet after bullet through the same jagged hole. At that range with a pistol, he's lucky to hit the target, honestly.

FWI I commented only on what I would want and I'm not 11 and posses the proficiency to score consistent hits at 15 yards with any of my defensive handguns. Yes a carbine is probably easier for a novice or even an experienced shooter but if one is going to keep a gun for defense they ought to develop the requisite skill sets to use it. Also, there is a world of difference between defensive shooting and the skills required and static range shooting. If you have never had the chance to do any "run and gun" type shooting it is an amazingly eye opening experience. One realizes very very quickly that being able to align the sights on a target is only one part that type of shooting and even that can be a very different ball game under stress.

If one's gun is just going to be a talisman to place in the closet to make one feel better "just in case", get whatever you want it probably matters very little. In sum, a piece of hardware is a poor fix to major software issues.

A long gun is a better fighting weapon but a handgun is in so rather important respects a much more practical defensive weapon. I suppose that is one reason that it is nice to own and be proficient with both.

valorius
August 6, 2010, 05:36 AM
"In sum, a piece of hardware is a poor fix to major software issues."

If you believe that philosophy then you can say the same thing about the pistol, or any defensive tool.

And let's be serious, those same 90% i referred to in my last post are going to leave their hi point pistol in a drawer, which is no better than them leaving their hi point carbine in a closet.

A pistol is generally inferior to a carbine in all ways except portability. So for the overwhelming majority of us who do not walk our houses at all times armed, there is no real practical difference between the two when viewed purely as home defense tools, except when it comes time to actually trade shots, in which case the 995 has the obvious prohibitive advantage.

If you're only gonna have one gun, a 995 is about 100x more gun than the vast majority of pistols. Let's face it, most people that buy a hi point aint gonna practice with it to the point that they gain any high degree of proficiency. Many if not most Hi Point owners are poor people looking for a reliable means of last ditch personal defense. They'll take it to the range, make sure it works, and then it will go in a drawer and sit there forever, maybe getting shot once every year or so, if that. That's probably true for most handguns and handgun owners in general anyway.

A shotgun is also a very solid choice, as you mention...unless you're a 5'2" 110lb female who has been to the range all of a couple times in your life, or an older person, or a younger person, or anyone sensitive to heavy recoil, then the compact, lightweight, low recoil (even with +P+ the 995 barely recoils) 11 shot 9mm carbine is a much better choice than the pistol or the shotgun.

Seriously, the 995 carbine is a slick little SOB, and the same length as a fully collapsed 14" M-4 carbine. For the average shooter, it is probably about 100x more lethal in the real world than a hi point pistol, or any pistol, and a hell of a lot friendlier to a lot of people than the savage recoil of a shotgun.

Me personally, i love a shotgun for home defense, i have a Beretta 1200FP 12ga semi for that purpose, but my 5' tall girlfriend has much different views. She loves my compact, light recoiling AR carbine. She, like my 11yo god son, can use a light recoiling carbine with surgical precision at real world civilian gunfighting ranges. With my P7 she can barely keep her groups in a 6" circle at 7 yards. She has terrible problems with limp wristing my LCP as well. She doesn't want to devote a big part of her life to getting good with a pistol. She has seen that right now, with her skill level, she can shoot quarters at 15 yds with a 995 carbine.(Or dimes with my AR) She can operate either well. Carbines don't give her problems due to her size like auto pistols do. A carbine inspires confidence (and fear in your opponent if you are seen to be armed with a rifle), and in the case of the 995 propelling 9mm's out of it's carbine length barrel, is highly effective. (My godson's 995 has demonstrated 100% reliability with 115gr +P+ Fed 9BPLE, 100gr+P Corbon Powrbal, 115gr+P Corbon Sierra, and even super hot 115gr+P Buffalo Bore Gold Dot JHP- any one of these loads would be devastating out of a 995)

Discounting CCW, there is no way on earth that a Hi Point pistol would be even remotely as good a choice for my GF or other petite women, or many frail older people, or most smaller kids that are of an age to learn to shoot and help the family in a defensive situation, or people with medical ailments that affect hand strength, or a perfectly healthy grown man in a SHTF or survival or enemy invasion scenario.

So if i could only chose one gun, and it said hi point on the side of it, it would be a 995.

LOL...next batter! ;)

Kimber.45
August 6, 2010, 07:58 AM
Agreed that you could certainly carry a Hi Point pistol if your wardrobe and the weather allow for it, but if you had an 18rd Ruger SR9 at your disposal, you would not consciously choose to carry a Hi Point over your Ruger except in very unusual circumstances.

It's like a Chevy Cavalier. You can off-road or race a Cavalier, but why? God invented 4x4's and Porsche's for a reason. Just as he invented Cavaliers for a reason.

All i'm saying is that while the Hi point serves a very useful niche role, it is just that: A niche weapon. On it's own merits it is not competitive with other niche weapons unless you are placing an over-riding importance on entry cost.

To say that a Hi Point pistol is as good as a HK P7 for CCW, or as good as a FN Five Seven for battlefield use, or as good as a target pistol for target use, or as good for home defense as a 18rd Ruger SR9 as mentioned above is just not accurate. To imply that a person with a niche use like one of those i just mentioned would be as well armed with a Hi Point as they would with it's much higher priced competitors is just not reasonable, and quite frankly, is dangerously bad advice IMO.

A Hi Point can be pressed into service as a CCW piece, or a home defense piece, or as a target piece, or even as a battlefield sidearm, but it's going to be at a huge disadvantage to weapons that are designed specifically for those purposes. How can't it be? For what a Hi Point pistol or carbine is designed to be, it has NO peers in it's niche....it's niche being the cheapest possible entry price for a poor American to give himself a reliable means of multi-shot defense with a firearm.

To me, a $150 995 9mm Carbine offers a level of defense FAR in excess of the expenditure of cash required to own one, and is far more sensible a home defense selection if one can truly only afford a single firearm. Honestly i would rather have a 995 Carbine than a $2000 1911 for home defense/SHTF if it was my only firearm.
I do have the choice of carrying any of several guns and sometimes I do carry my Hi-Point over one of the others. The reason is that I have that option, I also live in a very low risk area. It would sort of be like driving a Porsche slowly over speed bumps in a gated community to carry my SR9 where I live.

I also never said that a HP was as good as an HK P7 or any other gun and especially for specialized guns as you suggest. I will venture to say however that a Hi-Point is better than those others in it's intended niche ( a weapon for those who cannot afford anything better), in other words, any gun is better than no gun or put another way: A hit with a $130 Hi-Point is better than no shot from a $2000 gun on a gunstore shelf.
Having no weapon to protect oneself is by far mor dangerous advice than buying a Hi-Point.

I also state once again, the Hi-Point can serve in various roles for someone who is of very limited funds. One cannot carry a shotgun or carbine around with them.

You seem to misinterpret what I'm saying. I'll attempt to make it clear.
1) I never said a Hi-Point was better than a shotgun for HD.
2) I never said a Hi-Point was better than one of the more expensive guns EXCEPT that it is better to have a $130 Hi-Point with oneself rather than a $2000 pistol in ones dreams or dealer display case.

There are many people who cannot afford Kimbers, HK's or even Ruger SR9's, Hi-Points give those people the means to protect themselves and gives people like me a chance to try them out for myself without any great loss if I didn't like it. I've had my Hi-Point for several years now and have no intention of getting rid of it. I accept it for what it is and I enjoy it.

Kimber.45
August 6, 2010, 08:02 AM
I wouldn't. If I only could have one gun I would want a pistol because it is easier to keep on my person at all times. Try carrying a long gun around the house all day it is a PIA and very soon you start just leaving it. Since I can not assure I'll have the opportunity to walk across the house to get it when I need a gun I prefer to have one I can keep on me.
I agree and this is a point I tried to make.
A lot of gun people have fancy guns and end up carrying small pocket pistols instead.
I wouldn't want to haul a long gun around all day.

Kimber.45
August 6, 2010, 08:05 AM
90+% of the general firearms owning public probably does not carry a gun around the house with them unless they heard a bump or bang or a crash in the night, or whatever else.

However if you are one of the people that do, clearly you'd be better served with the pistol, at least until you actually had to use it.

If you're one of the 90%+ (admittedly my own guesstimate figure), the 995 is a far more potent weapon than almost any pistol.

I bought a 995 for my 11yo god son. He is a novice shooter, but i can tell you that you'd not want to be anywhere near him with evil intent when he has a locked and loaded 995 on his person. Out to about 15 yards he can put bullet after bullet through the same jagged hole. At that range with a pistol, he's lucky to hit the target, honestly.
By your own admission your GS is a novice, give him time and instruction.

Hopefully he and your GF will always have their carbines close at hand when out in public. BTW, 7 yards seems a more realistic distance for SD shootings than 15 yards.

harmon rabb
August 6, 2010, 08:23 AM
The 995 is pretty sweet for what it is, I'll give it that. A buddy has one that I have fired. I can hit cans at 50yds with iron sights, no problem. With some +p+ in there, it would probably generate velocities in excess of standard .357mag out of a 6" revolver.

Lar1911
August 6, 2010, 09:23 AM
I wouldn't. If I only could have one gun I would want a pistol because it is easier to keep on my person at all times. Try carrying a long gun around the house all day it is a PIA and very soon you start just leaving it.

I am in the Army and have spent time in Iraq with the M16. You get use to having it attached to you all the time.

When I came home it was strange not having it with me.

Kimber.45
August 6, 2010, 10:26 AM
I am in the Army and have spent time in Iraq with the M16. You get use to having it attached to you all the time.

When I came home it was strange not having it with me.
I too used to carry an M16, a long time ago
Wait until you are a 50 yo civilian.

I'm looking forward to the next report. I don't expect the Hi-Point to shine but I hope to see it perform reasonably well.

Lar1911
August 6, 2010, 10:45 AM
Im a 49 yr old soldier

Lar1911
August 6, 2010, 01:29 PM
I was hoping for a smart ass remark on my age. ;)

valorius
August 6, 2010, 01:59 PM
Do they hold up the PT formation when your walker gets stuck in a crack in the pavement? ;)

I was a young infantryman, could not even imagine doing it at age 49. But i do agree, your rifle becomes a part of you.

Girodin
August 6, 2010, 03:15 PM
I'll reiterate what I believe is are the key parts of both my previous posts

1) "I commented only on what I would want"

There maybe special circumstances for some that change those parameters. We could come up with those all day. A carbine is not a good choice for someone with one arm like my friend, ah ha a pistol is the better HD weapon. Inviduals particular circumstances have little bearing on what I would want or what others should want.

2) "If one's gun is just going to be a talisman to place in the closet to make one feel better "just in case", get whatever you want it probably matters very little."

Lots of people do number two. I personally think it is a notch above having no gun (provided you at least know how to handle it safely) but it is light years behind having and knowing how to truly use a weapon and having access to it. I won't dispute that the percentage of gun owners that are adequately prepared to defend themselves with a gun is very low. Again just because lots of people do something doesn't make it a good idea.



A shotgun is also a very solid choice, as you mention...unless you're a 5'2" 110lb female

That describes my ex girlfriend pretty well. To paint the image she is much more into Prada than Colt. She is not a gun person at all but after spending a small amount of time to learn how to shoot could wield my defensive guns just fine including my 12 gauge (the adjustible stock was nice here because fit is more important than gauge in such a circumstance). She could shoot my 1911 and my various 9mm handguns. She could work the slides and do all the things some people think small women cannot. It is amazing what a little technique will do. My mother (another 110 lbs woman) was convinced she could not work the slides of an auto loader. Pinching the slide between two fingers and trying to pull with that hand she was correct. After adjusting her techinque those impossible to operate slides were easily racked.

Also I wasn't even that big (110) when I started hunting birds and was able to use a shotgun (including 12s). Again fit and learning how to shoot is more important than gauge.

That's not to say that a 12 gauge is the best option for such a person. A carbine might well be better. See point one above.

When the argument for a gun revolves around the following premises: The person wont learn how to use it or an alternative anyhow, it, or an alternative, will just sit in a drawer, the person is inadequately skilled to use a better option and refuses to develop minimal skills to do so, the person is unwilling to make available the alternative, etc. I don't think it is worth trying to convince such a person of better choices. The actual gun in hand is the least of such a persons concern if they are facing a threat to their life.

Kimber.45
August 6, 2010, 04:07 PM
It is true that one needs training and practice. It is also true that a better gun will not make someone a better shooter if they do not train and practice.

valorius
August 6, 2010, 04:29 PM
Sure you can train a small person to use any weapon, including an F-15 fighter jet. The problem is most small females have little to no interest in "Proper technique", practice, or anything of the sort.

Getting them to at least learn to shoot can often be like pulling teeth.

Most people are just not "gun people" in the same sense we are here. They buy a gun, shoot it a couple times, then put it in a drawer or closet and forget about it until they really need it.

All the women in my family are this way. They only even own guns because i or another male family member pestered them that they should not be defenseless. None of them enjoys shooting very much, but all of them own guns, keep them loaded, and can use them. Hell, my dad who is an ex cop is the same way too. These people are perfect candidates for 995 carbines (or similar weapons).

My brother and i, a long since moved away cousin, and my 11yo godson are the "gun nuts" in the family. Of us, my brother is really the only one that is in the "carry a gun around the house with you" mode. I prefer a layered defense, which negates the need for having a pistol on my person in my home.

And by the way, the Armed Citizen column in American Rifleman every month is chock full of countless stories of poorly or untrained individuals successfully using firearms for self defense.

I do not believe one needs to be high speed low drag with their chosen weapon to defend themselves effectively. I do not believe this because there are just as many bad criminals as there are poorly trained home defenders.

However, if you run into a really tough hombre, your decision to not train might very well cost you your keister, gun or no gun. If you are facing a guy like that, you're still way better off with the carbine though. Much more accurate, much harder hitting, much faster shooting, and as a last ditch defense, it can be used as a club. (though i doubt a 995 would stand up to much HTH action at all)

1911Tuner
August 6, 2010, 05:41 PM
And by the way, the Armed Citizen column in American Rifleman every month is chock full of countless stories of poorly or untrained individuals successfully using firearms for self defense.

Bingo.

The Hi-Point is a gun. That satisfies the first criteria. Have a gun.

It chambers a serious cartridge. That's the second criteria. Have enough gun.

It seems to work...and the third criteria is met.

That puts it way ahead of 911, a prayer, and a frying pan when The Beast is kicking the door down.

In nature, the she-bear with cubs is one of the most dangerous animals in the woods. A scared, armed woman home alone with her little ones is subject to pull the trigger without blinking.

If all that is desired is a pistol to keep around for a little extra security, the .45 or 9mm Hi-Point is entirely adequate, assuming that the owner can operate it and is willing to pull the trigger when the flag flies. Are there "better" choices? Of course. You can spend more money for a (.45)1911 or a
(9mm) High Power...but to what end? They fire the same cartridge. They strike the same blow.
Mr. Pigsnot McNasty won't be laughing on the way to the ER because you shot him with a Hi-Point instead of a Baer Stinger.

s2mason
August 6, 2010, 07:32 PM
To say that a Hi Point pistol is as good as a HK P7 for CCW, or as good as a FN Five Seven for battlefield use, or as good as a target pistol for target use, or as good for home defense as a 18rd Ruger SR9 as mentioned above is just not accurate. To imply that a person with a niche use like one of those i just mentioned would be as well armed with a Hi Point as they would with it's much higher priced competitors is just not reasonable, and quite frankly, is dangerously bad advice IMO.

A Hi Point can be pressed into service as a CCW piece, or a home defense piece, or as a target piece, or even as a battlefield sidearm, but it's going to be at a huge disadvantage to weapons that are designed specifically for those purposes. How can't it be? For what a Hi Point pistol or carbine is designed to be, it has NO peers in it's niche....it's niche being the cheapest possible entry price for a poor American to give himself a reliable means of multi-shot defense with a firearm.

I'd like to know how many "average citizens" that have conciously taken it apon themselves to be prepared for armed conflict, have suffered harm based on the failure of the gun they chose to defend themselves with.........?? Seriously............

akadave
August 6, 2010, 07:38 PM
I'd like to know how many "average citizens" that have conciously taken it apon themselves to be prepared for armed conflict, have suffered harm based on the failure of the gun they chose to defend themselves with.........?? Seriously............
While I cant site specific incidents. I have read about how people were either harmed or nearly harmed because of firearm failures.

Maybe you should have said those that were harmed because of the quality of the firearm? Then I have nothing.

1911Tuner
August 6, 2010, 07:43 PM
A Hi Point can be pressed into service as a CCW piece, or a home defense piece, or as a target piece, or even as a battlefield sidearm, but it's going to be at a huge disadvantage to weapons that are designed specifically for those purposes.

As to that...Farmer Joe's 16 gauge Fox Model B wasn't specifically designed for armed conflict, either...but it's fully up to the task of repelling boarders at the old homestead...and has done so countless times over the last few decades.

valorius
August 6, 2010, 09:46 PM
Farmer Joe's 16 gauge will indeed repel boarders in a pinch, but i am sure we both agree it would be a far less than optimal substitute for one of these in that role...

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/Spoons/e19b4467.jpg

BTW, having read many of your posts 1911 Tuner, you are one seriously knowledgeable dude. :)

1911Tuner
August 6, 2010, 11:44 PM
But if that Model B Fox is all he's got, it beats 911 and a prayer...

christcorp
August 7, 2010, 01:42 AM
Mason; considering that approximately 95% of all threats that were stopped with a firearm involved, did so just by it's appearance, (No shots were fired), I'd say that the numbers would be pretty low on your scenario.

Valoris; you are correct that a very large number of gun owners are ill trained or prepared to defend themselves with a pistol. That is why I ALWAYS recommend to a person; if they don't play on shooting at least once every couple months; that they get a REVOLVER. Preferably in the 357 magnum caliber. It has the largest selection of ammo of ALL OTHER CALIBERS: From 380 strength all the way to 41 magnum strength. Also; revolvers are strictly point and click. (Double action revolvers of course). And being the gun is in a drawer, closet, etc... chances of it getting dirty or messed up is slim to non. With a revolver, they don't have to worry about chamber a round; if they don't leave it chambered. They don't have to worry about magazines, safeties, or any likely problems. With the revolver, it's point and click. And if it doesn't go bang, point and click again.

And that is where people in these discussions, tend to be way off the mark with their opinions and recommendations. They think about how THEY would react or act; and they think everyone else should do the same. Or at least they should be thinking the same way. Well, they don't. Nor should they. Some couldn't give a fart about competitions, tritium sights, 18 round magazine capacity, extra magazines, what the FBI or local police shoot, or any other topic that occupies 80% of the forums. They want a gun either for "HOME" defense, occasional plinking/fun, or both. They aren't going to be shooting 1 or more days a month. Maybe 1 of 2 times in a year. They don't watch the outdoor channel. They aren't obsessed with guns like many of us are. They just want a gun that goes bang when they need it to, and it hits what they are aiming at. And because they don't plan on using it much, they want a gun that won't set them back a lot of money. And the hi-point fills this requirement perfectly. And believe it or not, this group of people I'm describing, is the overwhelming majority of gun owners. The sampling on this and other forums is LESS than 5% of gun owners in the country. There's approximately 200 million guns; this is skewed because many of us have a lot of guns. But roughly 40% of all households have at least 1 gun. And the vast majority of those are not regular shooters. If these people are smart, they'll buy a S&W or similar 357 magnum revolver. If they aren't smart, and want a semi-auto, then they should get what feels and shoots right for them. And if it happens to be a hi-point, more power to them. Even if it's a millionaire. Just because they CAN afford more, doesn't mean they have to or should. But again; the vast majority of gun owners in this country should be buying/owning 357 magnum revolvers. If they aren't going to practice, then that's the gun to have when you need one.

s2mason
August 7, 2010, 02:26 AM
But roughly 40% of all households have at least 1 gun. And the vast majority of those are not regular shooters. If these people are smart, they'll buy a S&W or similar 357 magnum revolver. If they aren't smart, and want a semi-auto, then they should get what feels and shoots right for them. And if it happens to be a hi-point, more power to them. Even if it's a millionaire. Just because they CAN afford more, doesn't mean they have to or should. But again; the vast majority of gun owners in this country should be buying/owning 357 magnum revolvers. If they aren't going to practice, then that's the gun to have when you need one.

Excellent point. I talked with a guy at the jobsite today that owns a HiPoint, and he fits your scenario perfectly. He owns one gun for HD. He's been to a range exactly 1 time in his life (last year when he bought his HP 9mm). This guy appeared like he could afford a variety of choices ( I make this statement based on the fact that we were having the conversation next to his F-150 Platinum Edition, that he was driving to tow his very large speed boat out to the lake for the weekend......). In any case I asked him why he chose the HiPoint, and he said because the safety was simple enough for him not to have to fumble around with it in case of emergency. I told him he could have went with a revolver, and he agreed that he could have. The range allowed him to shoot the HiPoint and a few different revolvers and auto's, and he liked the way the HP shot, and it's simplicity. He hopes it never comes out of the nightstand, and he has no interest in target shooting or anything else gun related. He just wants to be prepared if something goes bump in the night.

stickhauler
August 7, 2010, 02:59 AM
Excellent point. I talked with a guy at the jobsite today that owns a HiPoint, and he fits your scenario perfectly. He owns one gun for HD. He's been to a range exactly 1 time in his life (last year when he bought his HP 9mm). This guy appeared like he could afford a variety of choices ( I make this statement based on the fact that we were having the conversation next to his F-150 Platinum Edition, that he was driving to tow his very large speed boat out to the lake for the weekend......). In any case I asked him why he chose the HiPoint,

That may well be a consideration in why he sought a lower priced firearm, truck and boat payments ain't cheap.

valorius
August 7, 2010, 04:37 AM
Valoris; you are correct that a very large number of gun owners are ill trained or prepared to defend themselves with a pistol. That is why I ALWAYS recommend to a person; if they don't play on shooting at least once every couple months; that they get a REVOLVER. Preferably in the 357 magnum caliber. It has the largest selection of ammo of ALL OTHER CALIBERS: From 380 strength all the way to 41 magnum strength. Also; revolvers are strictly point and click. (Double action revolvers of course). And being the gun is in a drawer, closet, etc... chances of it getting dirty or messed up is slim to non. With a revolver, they don't have to worry about chamber a round; if they don't leave it chambered. They don't have to worry about magazines, safeties, or any likely problems. With the revolver, it's point and click. And if it doesn't go bang, point and click again.

Most of the womenfolk in my family have .357 magnum Rugers loaded with 125gr Remington SJHP, the full power stuff- for exactly the reasons you outlined above. (and also because you can tell if one is loaded at a glance if there's any lighting at all).

christcorp
August 7, 2010, 02:12 PM
It's nice when we know that all in all, most of us here are on the same page. What makes forums "Difficult"; whether it's a gun forum; ford mustang forum; computer equipment forum; college admissions forum; etc... is that forums are usually comprised of 90% geeks who are really into the subject matter as a hobby or major interest in their lives. If it's the mustang forum, they like working on their cars and spend a lot of time at it. For guns, they tend to shoot more often, have more than one gun, and have a deep interest. The other 10% of forum members, no matter the type of forum, came there because they have questions, concerns, problems, etc... They are simply looking for an answer. E.g. What type of gun should I buy for concealed or home. Once they find their answer, they don't spend much time there again. In the mustang forum: How do I replace the fuel tank sending unit. Once they've done it, they just go back to driving their car, and rarely show up at the forum again.

So, when we all chat on this forum and refer to the 3rd person; e.g. This guy at work, my brother, etc..., we have to determine if the needs of that person are strictly a gun they carry, shoot once a year, and clean once a month (or longer); or is it a person who will shoot 50-100 rounds a month, rotates different guns for different purposes, becomes proficient with their guns, etc... And the advice and opinions we give, need to keep that in mind.

My advice on getting and using a hi-point is not for everyone. As I said, the person who will never practice, keeps the gun in a drawer, and wants it only for home, I recommend revolvers. Matter of fact, if it's carry gun and they never practice, I recommend a revolver. If concealed is an issue, I don't recommend hi-point. If the person is into competition shooting, I don't recommend hi-point. But if a person says that they don't want a revolver, and they want something for home use in the night stand, then I have no problem recommending a hi-point. I don't however recommend keeping a round in the chamber. The hi-point is a true single action - striker fired pistol. I don't find the round in the chamber method very safe. But, for home defense, you have time. If you have time to get to the pistol, you have time to chamber a round. Concealed carry is different, but I don't normally recommend the hi-point for that. Then again, I don't carry my 1911A1 concealed, and ONLY carry my Sig P220 concealed in the coldest months when a lot of clothing on both the shooter and target are involved. And anyone paranoid enough to walk around their house with a pistol on them all the time, probably is the type who doesn't leave home without a pistol either. So they are in a different class of shooters.

Anyway, I think that's why there are so many disagreements on this forum. Not because we actually disagree, but rather because we are viewing the subject from different requirement and purposes of the individual. We have to keep in mind that what we use a gun for, may not be what another person uses a gun for. And while one person might ONLY EVER have a hi-point if they couldn't afford anything else, another might be able to afford ANYTHING imaginable, but wants a gun that they can keep stored in their garage, the drawer of the spare bedroom, or on their boat, or in their camping backpack. These are definitely scenarios where a hi-point over a glock, S&W, or springfield would make a lot of sense. Just because I can afford better, why would I WASTE my money on a $600-$800 gun, when a $150 gun will do EXACTLY 100% the same thing??? The hi-point definitely has it's place. And NOT just among those who can't afford anything else.

Hamsen
August 7, 2010, 03:08 PM
These are definitely scenarios where a hi-point over a glock, S&W, or springfield would make a lot of sense. Just because I can afford better, why would I WASTE my money on a $600-$800 gun, when a $150 gun will do EXACTLY 100% the same thing???

While my plan is to get something better later. Don't see myself
parting with the Hi Point either. I like to go hiking, camping and
I won't be taking a high priced pistol out on my adventures.

Kimber.45
August 7, 2010, 04:53 PM
While my plan is to get something better later. Don't see myself
parting with the Hi Point either. I like to go hiking, camping and
I won't be taking a high priced pistol out on my adventures.
I do have better and won't be parting ways with my Hi-Point anyhow.
I just happen to like my Hi-Point, it's that simple.

contender
August 7, 2010, 07:54 PM
Still wondering about the "throw-down" challenge that was in the first post of what has become 12 pages so far.

I've gone to the OP's listed site for up-dates and it appears that the "challenge" is either canceled or on the back burner as the last couple of entries have not been about the hi-point "throw-down" that has generated so much interest here.

i would guess the man is busy between work and other endevors......hopefully this "challenge" will continue...............if for no other reason than it is entertaining and inexpensive firearms rarely get much spotlight time in the gun rags or tv shows...

1911Tuner
August 7, 2010, 08:20 PM
Me too, contender. I think we'll hear a somewhat grudging admission that there's a little more to the Hi-Point than just a cheap date with a pretty face. :D

The truth is that most modern guns will do pretty well provided the crank at the bank has taken a little time to get to know his weapon, and has devoted a bit of trigger time to it in an honest attempt to see what it'll do in capable hands.

And as for Farmer Joe's shotgun...Joe's a farmer...not a gunfighter, and he has no interest in becoming one.

Joe bought the gun that fit his expected requirements. With his old Fox B, he can harvest Quail, Pheasant, Cottontails and Jacks as well as deer...and he can use it to keep the fox outta the henhouse, and the Cornatzer brothers outta the melon patch with the judicious application of a handful of rock salt. If need be, he can defend hearth and home with it pretty well, too. Not as well as with the Tactical Scattergun with extended tube and laser sights...but then again...Joe rarely has to face down any savage hordes out on the farm, and if he does...he's probably got a Garand and an old GI Colt stashed away somewhere. ;)

Maverick223
August 7, 2010, 08:39 PM
Still wondering about the "throw-down" challenge that was in the first post of what has become 12 pages so far.Same here. I'd really like to see this get back to the testing and leave the conjecture for afterwards.

1911Tuner, you sure have an interesting opinion of a "pretty face". :p

s2mason
August 7, 2010, 08:49 PM
That may well be a consideration in why he sought a lower priced firearm, truck and boat payments ain't cheap.

yeah, I'm sure that's how he's saving money......

s2mason
August 7, 2010, 08:53 PM
I do have better and won't be parting ways with my Hi-Point anyhow.
I just happen to like my Hi-Point, it's that simple.

That's probobly the case with most of us Hi Point owners.

1911Tuner
August 7, 2010, 09:30 PM
1911Tuner, you sure have an interesting opinion of a "pretty face".

Hey...If that Hi-Point is all ya got when The Beast comes through the door, it'll be the most beautiful thing you ever laid eyes on.

That old Model 58 Smith out in the safe has a few warts on it, but ever since the day it saved my ol' skinny from a pack of feral dogs...it's been purtier'n the Mona Lisa.

Maverick223
August 7, 2010, 10:07 PM
Hey...If that Hi-Point is all ya got when The Beast comes through the door, it'll be the most beautiful thing you ever laid eyes on.Very true. FWIW I always thought the Mona Lisa looked a bit masculine. ;)

1911Tuner
August 7, 2010, 10:15 PM
FWIW I always thought the Mona Lisa looked a bit masculine.

During the Rennaisance, she was the equivalent of Cindy Crawford and Sophie Marceau.

Hamsen
August 8, 2010, 12:08 PM
A Hi Point can be pressed into service as a CCW piece

I read a lot of posts about how a Hi Point is..bulky, heavy and not
good for CCW at all.

Are you really sure its that bulky and heavy? Next time your in a
gun store see if you can compare a C9 to a Glock, XD or Sigma.
The C9 is almost identical to the Glock 36, which is a .45 but they
are the same size basically.

Here's some other pistol weights for sake of the argument.

Beretta 92 (34 oz)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Beretta_92_FS.gif

Taurus 92 (34 oz)
http://www.taurususa.com/images/imagesMain/92SS.jpg

Hi Point C9 (29 oz)
http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/images/guns/C9.gif

Glock 10mm 20 (27.7 oz)
http://www.atlantictactical.com/mmCATALOG/Images/glock-20.jpg

To those guys who carry the Glock 10mm...the Hi Point is only
1.3 oz heavier :neener:

christcorp
August 8, 2010, 01:10 PM
Bulky, doesn't necessarily mean heavy. Bulky, at least in my definition, also refers to balance. Remember, the C-9 is a poly frame, with a massive slide on it. "Designed, because the gun is a Blow-Back design and not lock-breech." That makes the gun a bit top-heavy. So carrying it and handling it is "Bulky". Feels like you are holding a Makita Hand Drill.

Yes, my Sig P220 45acp and Kimber 1911 are probably just as heavy and physically similar in size. But then again, I am not a fan of carrying my P220 unless it's winter, cold, and a lot of clothing on. (Both me and the target). It's easier to conceal the P220 then. And I definitely want the 45acp under those conditions.

But my #1 reason I don't conceal carry my C-9 isn't because of the weight, size, bulkiness, etc... It's because it's a True Single Action Striker Fire pistol. Basically, once you rack the slide and chamber a round, the firing pin is totally cocked under spring tension. Yes, there is a mechanical safety that affects the sear, but I don't carry the C-9 with one in the chamber. I can't decock it, and I don't trust anything mechanical 100%. I trust a decocked hammer, not a striker fire under full spring tension. Then again, I do the same with my AMT 380 backup. I don't carry one in the chamber of that either.

However, with enough practice and familiarization, there is nothing wrong with chambering a round when you need it. Yes, there are those that are afraid that having to chamber a round is just one more thing that can go wrong. Well, if a person doesn't know how to properly chamber a pistol, then that's their problem. If the gun can't chamber a round properly when done manually, then it probably will have problems when done after each round. I am quite confident in my abilities. After all, it's me who is going to save my life or not; not the pistol. Guns don't save people, people save people. And for what it's worth, on the rare occasions when I carry a 1911A1 or variant, I carry it with a round in the chamber and the hammer down.

So if you define bulky as weight and size only, then you are correct. If you can carry a 1911A1, P220, or similar size pistols, then carrying a Hi-Point C-9 isn't too difficult. (The 40 and 45acp however is a REAL Makita Drill. Very long handle). But my bulky issue is because it's so top heavy. Love the gun, just not a carry gun. And for me, the main carry issue is the striker fire single action issue. But I would carry it if needed; just not with one in the chamber. But then again, that's me.

valorius
August 8, 2010, 07:13 PM
I agree with Christcorp that the ergonomics of the Hi Point C9 make it feel very bulky even beyond it's actual weight and dimensions.

Also, i do not think i would consider a M9 Beretta to be a good CCW choice either. It's a very large pistol.

okespe04
August 8, 2010, 09:22 PM
I owned a hi-point C9 for a while. It did exactly what it was designed to do and that's that. If you don't own a gun go buy one right now.

On a side note I found it to be an ugly piece of crap regardless of how well it worked so I traded it in on a ugly Glock 19 which I like much better.

Dionysusigma
August 10, 2010, 07:10 PM
Still waiting on the next update. ;)

Maverick223
August 10, 2010, 10:31 PM
Over two weeks and no update...or reply of any kind...I think i'm going to forget about this thread/test just like Justin. http://forums.nitroexpress.com/images/graemlins/smilies/general/wave1.gif

Readyrod
August 11, 2010, 07:17 AM
Check here folks: http://multigun.wordpress.com/. He is updating on his blog.

CajunBass
August 11, 2010, 08:10 AM
Over two weeks and no update...or reply of any kind...I think i'm going to forget about this thread/test just like Justin.

You know. The guy may actually have a life.

Dionysusigma
August 11, 2010, 08:34 AM
Check here folks: http://multigun.wordpress.com/. He is updating on his blog.
... which he hasn't updated in a week, and even then it wasn't related.

You know. The guy may actually have a life.
LIES! :eek: :D

Hamsen
August 11, 2010, 12:50 PM
I think i'm going to forget about this thread/test just like Justin.

Are you sure you want to leave? There may never be a Hi Point
thread again :D

Maverick223
August 11, 2010, 01:24 PM
You know. The guy may actually have a life.That may be, but i'd rather not squander mine sorting through dozens of replies with only conjecture and arguments about the merits and detriments of the platform only to determine that there has been no update. I think it is clear that he has abandoned the test, both here and on his blog. Can't say I blame him, he's probably tired of sorting through the replies too.

:)

valorius
August 11, 2010, 03:50 PM
I'm guessing that with 7,165 posts here, you've squandered quite a lot of your life doing just that Maverick. :D

christcorp
August 11, 2010, 03:50 PM
No one's forcing you to be here. I personally welcome Justin's tests and findings; no matter what they might be. And as said, it looks like he has a life. Nothing against your interest in guns, I too love them, but we all don't have the time to average 360 posts a month on this forum like you do.

Justin hasn't abandoned the test. He said a couple weeks ago that between some unexpected work and some plans he already had made, it might take some time. By all means, forget this thread for a while. Come back once a week; or better yet, visit his blog once a week and see if/when he updates.

Girodin
August 11, 2010, 04:00 PM
One would expect him to be faster with the gun he shoots regularly. That said, considering he is starting from a low ready with the high point those are pretty notable time differences.

Maverick223
August 11, 2010, 04:46 PM
I'm guessing that with 7,165 posts here, you've squandered quite a lot of your life doing just that Maverick.True, but there are so many other ways to squander my free time (which I have more of due to a decline at work right now). :D

valorius
August 11, 2010, 05:03 PM
Hey i got 20k posts on my favorite car forum that i've been posting at for years. I know your sickness well my friend. :D

CoRoMo
August 11, 2010, 05:11 PM
...it is clear that he has abandoned the test...
Dang. I wonder why.

Hamsen
August 11, 2010, 05:11 PM
Stardate 20938

Looks like we are up to 13 pages now :uhoh: was curious
if this is the longest Hi Point thread here? or is there another
one out there in the archives? :evil:

herohog
August 12, 2010, 01:17 AM
Dang. I wonder why. It was a joke. The guy is just busy. The real deal is posted on his blog. Drop in over there once and a while and you will know all there is to know about the test. All this here is conjecture and bickering over the best gun ever made. http://herohog.com/images/icons/smileys/beat_deadhorse.gif

valorius
August 12, 2010, 05:14 PM
All this here is conjecture and bickering over the best gun ever made.
Sorry for posting all the HK P7 pix then... ;)

Hamsen
August 13, 2010, 04:38 PM
Sorry for posting all the HK P7 pix then..;)

Never apologize for posting good gun pics :D

Back to the thread.. I personally don't care now how
this competition turns out now. The Hi Point hung with
the big boys and thats good enough for me. What other
gun thats NIB in the $150 range can do this? I think that
speaks volumes here.

valorius
August 13, 2010, 04:46 PM
My Godson had his 995 out at the range last night. The batteries burned out in his red dot, so he was just "guessing", and he was still shooting 1 to 1.5" groups at 10yds with his 9mm 995 carbine and Corbon 115gr+P Sierra JHP.

He fired 3 mags of it, no problems. All told he's got about 600rds of various hollowpoints through that gun, from subsonic 147gr to the hottest +P+, and it feeds and ejects it all without fail.

It's a great little carbine.

Justin
August 13, 2010, 08:01 PM
Hey guys, sorry for the delay. I wasn't able to get to the match two weeks ago, and missed last week because I was at the NRA Whittington Center competing at The Rocky Mountain 3 Gun Nationals (sans Hi-Point ;) )

I've made it to the latest match, and have updated it.

Ok, you guys have been pretty patient with me, so hereís an update for the Hi-Point Throwdown. I attended our weekly Wednesday Steel Challenge match and ran the Hi-Point against an M&P. Iíve also secured a holster for the Hi-Point as well. Click for the continuation of the Hi-Point Throwdown! (http://multigun.wordpress.com/2010/08/13/the-hi-point-throwdown-continues/)

Tim the student
August 13, 2010, 08:16 PM
Justin, thanks for the update.

W.E.G.
August 13, 2010, 08:18 PM
Good show.

Nasty
August 13, 2010, 08:22 PM
Thanks Justin...you continue to support the position that it's the shooter more than the gun.

I think a lot of *top* competitors can squeeze out the fine points of top tier weapons, but for most of us, any decently functioning and passably accurate firearm will do the job for HD.

I would say that the HP is both of those.

Dionysusigma
August 13, 2010, 08:51 PM
I also thank you for the update. :)

I am now starting to get the itch for a Hi-Point. :p

gatopardo
August 13, 2010, 11:13 PM
hi-points rule for accuracy, don't believe me? borrow one and check it out.
Not great carriers though, heavy and bulky to conceal,otherwise cool pistols and cool warranty, the hipoint forum sucks though, the moderators are trolls:mad:

Here is mine with glow-on.com night sights
http://ninjalawncare.biz/sensorycue/images/c-9ns.jpg

Girodin
August 14, 2010, 12:07 AM
Thanks for the update. I've found your results very interesting. Again, those time differences really are rather notable.

Kimber.45
August 14, 2010, 07:45 AM
hi-points rule for accuracy, don't believe me? borrow one and check it out.
Not great carriers though, heavy and bulky to conceal,otherwise cool pistols and cool warranty, the hipoint forum sucks though, the moderators are trolls:mad:

Here is mine with glow-on.com night sights
http://ninjalawncare.biz/sensorycue/images/c-9ns.jpg
I woildn't say that they rule for accuracy but they are accurate enough, as in most guns, they are more accurate than my skills allow.
I have carried the C9 on occasion and no worse than other guns that I carry though it is a bit wider than others.
There is more than one Hi-Point forum. I won't say anything about HPFF as I cannot say anything good but Hi Point Talk is a fun forum without the egotists.

Nice sights, I'm going to check them out.

JTH
August 14, 2010, 05:22 PM
Where's the 45 caliber Carbine that Hi Point said was coming out this month? I'd at least like to look at one. If they are over $300, I'd get another AK rifle or Draco AK pistol!!
JT

Wester
August 14, 2010, 06:28 PM
Website still has Aug '10 as the "projected" release date, who knows when it will really come out.

harmon rabb
August 14, 2010, 07:01 PM
Hey i got 20k posts on my favorite car forum that i've been posting at for years. I know your sickness well my friend

I have over 80k at my favorite car forum. :o

RX-178
August 14, 2010, 07:29 PM
I'm sorry if it sounds cliche by now, but my whole position on Hi Points from the start has been:

They work. Higher priced guns just work BETTER.

This whole Hi Point throwdown just seems to bear that out.

Handgunner
August 14, 2010, 08:10 PM
Where's the 45 caliber Carbine that Hi Point said was coming out this month?

I wouldn't hold my breath. ;)

sarduy
August 15, 2010, 12:37 AM
you mean the same carbine that was due to be released 4 years ago...? call them and you'll see the answer... "it's comming soon" next fall, winder, summer, spring...." you pick

valorius
August 15, 2010, 12:43 AM
I don't understand the delay. The .45acp is a much lower pressure cartridge than the 9mm or .40S&W. I would think a .45 version would be significantly easier to make, for that reason.

But then again, i am not a gun maker....

JR47
August 15, 2010, 02:54 PM
The delay may have more to do with production capacity than technical problems. High Point is selling guns about as fast as they can make them. Adding new tooling, then bringing in a new line, would slow production for a considerable period of time.

aryfrosty
August 15, 2010, 07:35 PM
I will certainly specify that my experience colors my opinions and that someone who might have have had A good experience might actually like them. You guys who believe that they are reliable might Google the words "Frangible Zinc" since that seems to be the bulk of the metal of the several I have handled...NOT fired. A shortcut might be that I could say that frangible zinc is also called "pot metal". Similar metals were commonly used by tinkers in the 19th and early 20th centuries because it had a low melting point and flowed well thereby lending itself to patching cookpots. Another use for this metal is in the manufacture of "replica firearms". I never really thought anyone would make something that fires ammo out of the stuff. One bad thing I see about it is that it breaks very easily and unexpectedly. I have personally seen 2 Hi-Point 9mms which fractured across the slide in the area of the ejection port...WHILE BEING FIRED! I won't own one and I would absolutely not stand on a firing line while another shooter was using one near me. I don't see this as being snooty or bigoted. I like my body with the current number of holes in it and don't wish to chance someone putting others in me without my let be. As I said, these are my opinions only and I would never say that anyone has to believe what I say. Anybody remember "Stallard Arms"?

1911Tuner
August 15, 2010, 07:58 PM
aryfrosty's observations are valid, and the failures that he mentioned are recoil stress fractures that that don't normally appear in blowback pistols...and they are a concern because the effect is the same as allowing the breech to open too early.

Because of the extensive use of zinc in Hi-Points, I've pretty much considered them to be of the "Carried a Lot and Seldom Shot" variety. There are more expensive pistols and revolvers that I also put into that category. Pistols that are considered to be of high quality, good design, and excellent carry pieces...but simply aren't durable enough to be put to hard use.

For those considering a Hi-Point as part of their home defense battery, it would be wise to bear these things in mind.

Onward Allusion
August 15, 2010, 09:26 PM
I went out and picked up a HP C-9 for grins and put it through its paces. Note that mine was not handed to me by a MKS employee. This is an off-the-shelf unit that I'd picked up for $150 OTD. I also purchased 4 other factory mags with the pistol.

Today at the range . . .
Out of 10 loaded mags shot (five separate new magazines) only ONE magazine did not suffer a failure to feed or eject. Of the mags that did jam, more than a few had more than one FTE/FTF. Almost every one of the FTE/FTFs could not be resolved through tap-rack-bang. Because of the design of the slide/ejection port, stovepipes usually required disengaging the magazine while holding the slide in the rearward position, as there is no external slide release/lock.

The ammo used was WWB, UMC Yellow Box, Brown Bear, & Silver Bear - each brand of ammo was used at least twice in two different mags.

The same ammo was used with a 5946 to ensure that the ammo was good. The 5946 had zero malfunctions out of 10 different loaded magazines.

- Groupings at 7 yards were more like 10" shotgun patterns - although every shot landed on the B-27 silhouette (by contrast, groups of 1" to 2" with the 5946)
- Cycling time was slow.
- Ergonomics was ok - The extended magazine made it easier to shoot -vs- the 8 round mags
- For a 9mm, it had snappy recoil
- Trigger was gritty and rough, even for a single action. This is coming from someone who thinks the Sigma's trigger is ok.

From additional research, it would appear that the magazines, like the pistol itself, requires a break-in period. Having to run through 250 to 500 9mm rounds before deeming a pistol reliable would cost the purchaser an additional $50 to $130 + tax and/or shipping, depending on ammo used.

Based on this unscientific experiment, I think that someone who could not afford more than a couple of hundred for a firearm & ammo AND had performed some research on the Internet would be crazy to buy a Hi-Point C-9.

For the same amount they would spend on the gun and break-in ammo, they can easily purchase an used S&W Model 10, a FEG PA-63, a NEW Armscor .38spl, or even a used Taurus 82 .38spl and be able to rely on it in a crunch.

But hey, I would never say that unless one can afford a Sig 226 they should save and wait. All I'm saying is that there are alternatives out there. RELIABLE alternatives that don't require 500 rounds of break-in.

valorius
August 15, 2010, 10:11 PM
Once you factor in the break in ammo, as you pointed out, you could be in used Ruger P-85 (and similar) $ territory....a used pistol which should require no break in at all.

liikeaboss
August 15, 2010, 10:37 PM
Thanks onward! Good perspective there.

Wildkow
August 16, 2010, 03:44 AM
Hi Points are Ugly/Fugly HA! if it saved your life or a loved ones life it would be the most beautiful gun in the world! :p

Wildkow
August 16, 2010, 03:50 AM
I went out and picked up a HP C-9 for grins and put it through its paces. Note that mine was not handed to me by a MKS employee. This is an off-the-shelf unit that I'd picked up for $150 OTD. I also purchased 4 other factory mags with the pistol.

Today at the range . . .
Out of 10 loaded mags shot (five separate new magazines) only ONE magazine did not suffer a failure to feed or eject. Of the mags that did jam, more than a few had more than one FTE/FTF. Almost every one of the FTE/FTFs could not be resolved through tap-rack-bang. Because of the design of the slide/ejection port, stovepipes usually required disengaging the magazine while holding the slide in the rearward position, as there is no external slide release/lock.

The ammo used was WWB, UMC Yellow Box, Brown Bear, & Silver Bear - each brand of ammo was used at least twice in two different mags.

The same ammo was used with a 5946 to ensure that the ammo was good. The 5946 had zero malfunctions out of 10 different loaded magazines.

- Groupings at 7 yards were more like 10" shotgun patterns - although every shot landed on the B-27 silhouette (by contrast, groups of 1" to 2" with the 5946)
- Cycling time was slow.
- Ergonomics was ok - The extended magazine made it easier to shoot -vs- the 8 round mags
- For a 9mm, it had snappy recoil
- Trigger was gritty and rough, even for a single action. This is coming from someone who thinks the Sigma's trigger is ok.

From additional research, it would appear that the magazines, like the pistol itself, requires a break-in period. Having to run through 250 to 500 9mm rounds before deeming a pistol reliable would cost the purchaser an additional $50 to $130 + tax and/or shipping, depending on ammo used.

Based on this unscientific experiment, I think that someone who could not afford more than a couple of hundred for a firearm & ammo AND had performed some research on the Internet would be crazy to buy a Hi-Point C-9.

For the same amount they would spend on the gun and break-in ammo, they can easily purchase an used S&W Model 10, a FEG PA-63, a NEW Armscor .38spl, or even a used Taurus 82 .38spl and be able to rely on it in a crunch.

But hey, I would never say that unless one can afford a Sig 226 they should save and wait. All I'm saying is that there are alternatives out there. RELIABLE alternatives that don't require 500 rounds of break-in.
I've heard Kahr PM9's take 200+ rounds per the factory to break in and feed properly. They sell for $600-$700 I don't think anyone here would consider any gun ready for CCW unless several hundred rounds have been through it? Am I wrong?

Kimber.45
August 16, 2010, 07:51 AM
My Kimbers had a break in period even though the Grand Raptor has been flawless since day one, the Custom II took a trip back to the factory to get things right.
My Walther P22 has a pot metal slide which did crack and was replaced.
Most Ak's are cheaply made, some use pot metal and laminates.
My SR9 went back to the factory for various problems (has been perfect since)
My Maks are hard to find ammo for and can't get parts.
LCP (another reasonably cheap gun) has been flawless since day 1.
My C9 went back to the factory for slide wear that was my fault (I didn't install the takedown pin all the way). Hi Point fixed it free and it is flawless with 115 gr ball ammo.

Various guns, various problems. The only two I never had issues with were the Grand Raptor and the LCP and as noted, even the GR had a recommended break in.

I might also add that Hi Point said they replaced my slide, barrel and a few other parts. In reality I think they replaced the gun and put my s/n on it as even the frame had flashing on it upon it's return and I had trimmed the excee off of mine.

Break in on a Hi Point?
Try shooting ball ammo, 115 gr it works for me. Also load the mag to capacity and let it sit for a week. Some people have said the mag lips need adjustment, maybe, but mine works after letting it sit loaded. There are two Hi Point forums that contain good information though HPT is not as overbearing and holier than thou as the other one.

I'm glad to see the Hi Point doing reasonably well and look forward to further updates.

christcorp
August 16, 2010, 11:57 PM
I only needed 2 boxes of ammo through a C-9 until it became completely reliable. Considering 9mm at walmart is only $9.97 a box (Federal), the extra $20 that people are saying for break in, isn't that bad. As mentioned also, I wouldn't trust ANY PISTOL for carry or self defense unless I've personally shot at least 200+ rounds through it. If all you're going to do is buy a pistol and a box of ammo, and put it in your night stand "IN CASE" you need it, then buy a revolver. But even if you buy a glock, HK, Sig, S&W, etc...; if you are going to use it for self defense, you are crazy if you haven't put at least 4-5 boxes of ammo through it. So the "SO CALLED" additional cost for breakin is a moot point.

Also, it has been documented about 4,398,509 times that WWB is not the most reliable ammo in a C-9 hi-point. And please don't argue that Every gun should be able to shoot all ammo. That is not reality. Every gun is unique. I have a Walther that will not under any circumstance shoot Corbon ammo. It physically gets jammed in the chamber. I don't hear people saying that Walthers suck.

No, the Hi-Point isn't really designed for the speed of steel shooting. And no, it isn't really designed as a carry gun. But as a home, garage, truck, camping, boat, type gun; it does a very good job. As far as zinc goes, I have no problem trusting it. Hell, half the people on this forum trusts plastic guns. And the ONLY guns I've ever seen with mechanical stress cracks were because of hot ammo. That was a Springfield 1911A1 and a Ruger Blackhawk. And I don't think anyone here considers springers or blackhawk pistols junk.

Point is, hi-points definitely have a valid place for many people. Those critical of them are usually looking at them from a very specific perspective. Meaning: As a carry gun; as a competition gun; needing a hi-cap magazine gun; etc... In other words, they look at what the gun isn't good at doing, and assume it must be just. Well, my porsche can't haul firewood out of the mountains. That doesn't make it junk. And my F250 can't take my family of 4 on a family vacation either. That doesn't make the F250 a piece of junk. But as has been shown by so many, the hi-point is a very reliable, dependable, and accurate gun, if used for what it was designed for.

jmstevens2
August 17, 2010, 01:41 AM
But hey, I would never say that unless one can afford a Sig 226 they should save and wait. All I'm saying is that there are alternatives out there. RELIABLE alternatives that don't require 500 rounds of break-in.

My Colt 1911 brand new did.

jmstevens2
August 17, 2010, 01:47 AM
My Kimbers had a break in period even though the Grand Raptor has been flawless since day one, the Custom II took a trip back to the factory to get things right.
My Walther P22 has a pot metal slide which did crack and was replaced.
Most Ak's are cheaply made, some use pot metal and laminates.
My SR9 went back to the factory for various problems (has been perfect since)
My Maks are hard to find ammo for and can't get parts.
LCP (another reasonably cheap gun) has been flawless since day 1.
My C9 went back to the factory for slide wear that was my fault (I didn't install the takedown pin all the way). Hi Point fixed it free and it is flawless with 115 gr ball ammo.

Various guns, various problems. The only two I never had issues with were the Grand Raptor and the LCP and as noted, even the GR had a recommended break in.

I might also add that Hi Point said they replaced my slide, barrel and a few other parts. In reality I think they replaced the gun and put my s/n on it as even the frame had flashing on it upon it's return and I had trimmed the excee off of mine.

Break in on a Hi Point?
Try shooting ball ammo, 115 gr it works for me. Also load the mag to capacity and let it sit for a week. Some people have said the mag lips need adjustment, maybe, but mine works after letting it sit loaded. There are two Hi Point forums that contain good information though HPT is not as overbearing and holier than thou as the other one.

I'm glad to see the Hi Point doing reasonably well and look forward to further updates.
HPT ? I know HPFF.

valorius
August 17, 2010, 02:23 AM
I put the ATI stock on my Godson's 995 9mm carbine for him tonight for his birthday.

What a nice stock!

Super solid feel, and it makes the gun look and feel far more serious, and a good deal handier. Now i want one!!! :D

Kimber.45
August 17, 2010, 12:30 PM
HPT ? I know HPFF.
http://www.hipointtalk.net/index.php

s2mason
August 17, 2010, 08:53 PM
aryfrosty's observations are valid, and the failures that he mentioned are recoil stress fractures that that don't normally appear in blowback pistols...and they are a concern because the effect is the same as allowing the breech to open too early.

Because of the extensive use of zinc in Hi-Points, I've pretty much considered them to be of the "Carried a Lot and Seldom Shot" variety. There are more expensive pistols and revolvers that I also put into that category. Pistols that are considered to be of high quality, good design, and excellent carry pieces...but simply aren't durable enough to be put to hard use.

For those considering a Hi-Point as part of their home defense battery, it would be wise to bear these things in mind.

Tuner,
With all due respect to your point, it appears that the overwhelming majority of actual Hi Point owners claim to have put thousands of rounds through their respective pistols, and claim to have experienced an extrememly low failure rate. My own conversations with other HP owners, and gun store employees seem to bear this out as an accurate assessment. It would appear that whatever the composite material make up of the parts they use is, they do not have an abnormal or dangerous wear pattern. That's not conjecture. I'd say it's as close to fact as can be claimed.

1911Tuner
August 17, 2010, 09:01 PM
With all due respect to your point, it appears that the overwhelming majority of actual Hi Point owners claim to have put thousands of rounds through their respective pistols, and claim to have experienced an extrememly low failure rate.

Regardless, it's still something to keep an eye on. Any time we deal with a casting, there's a chance of voids in the metal, and a zinc casting doesn't have nearly the tensile or shear strength of steel. One slide may last 10,000 rounds, and the next one in line might bust with less than a hundred. I advise a close inspection for cracks in the breechface area on machined barstock slides every 10,000 rounds. Inspecting a hard use gun for signs of impending failure is part of the program. Every thousand rounds for a zinc casting wouldn't be unreasonable, and it could save an eye.

Deltaboy
August 17, 2010, 09:09 PM
I will certainly specify that my experience colors my opinions and that someone who might have have had A good experience might actually like them. You guys who believe that they are reliable might Google the words "Frangible Zinc" since that seems to be the bulk of the metal of the several I have handled...NOT fired. A shortcut might be that I could say that frangible zinc is also called "pot metal". Similar metals were commonly used by tinkers in the 19th and early 20th centuries because it had a low melting point and flowed well thereby lending itself to patching cookpots. Another use for this metal is in the manufacture of "replica firearms". I never really thought anyone would make something that fires ammo out of the stuff. One bad thing I see about it is that it breaks very easily and unexpectedly. I have personally seen 2 Hi-Point 9mms which fractured across the slide in the area of the ejection port...WHILE BEING FIRED! I won't own one and I would absolutely not stand on a firing line while another shooter was using one near me. I don't see this as being snooty or bigoted. I like my body with the current number of holes in it and don't wish to chance someone putting others in me without my let be. As I said, these are my opinions only and I would never say that anyone has to believe what I say. Anybody remember "Stallard Arms"?
So, we have all seen youtube or pics of glocks going KA_BOOM!

1911Tuner
August 17, 2010, 10:05 PM
So, we have all seen youtube or pics of glocks going KA_BOOM!

A little different kinda kaboom there. When the Glocks do it, it's always been due to a burst case, with the force directed downward into the magwell. Unless sympathetic detonation of stored rounds occurs, any injury is usually confined to the hand.

If a slide separates under full recoil, you get to find out how long it takes a surgeon to remove it from your face.

I've seen steel slides on locked breech pistols crack in the port area adjacent to the breechface. It normally takes tens of thousands of rounds, but it does happen eventually if the gun is shot enough. Unusual for a blowback pistol to crack there because there's no resistance from the barrel, and if it's been noted in a Hi-Point, it indicates that the slide bears watching.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. These guns aren't designed to take the beating handed to an all-steel gun. They're fine for the niche they fill, but they fall into the category of "Carried a lot/Seldom shot" and it doesn't matter to me that some of them have endured 10,000 rounds without failure. They're not made of steel...and the slide is the most critical part because it makes up the breechblock.

FWIW, I also put Colt's LW Commander...the Star PD and BKM...SMith & Wesson's Model 37...and the Charter .44 Bulldog in the same class...at least for my uses. Everyone else may do as they wish, but like with any other caveat...Be prepared to face the consequences of ignoring sound advice.

The Hi-Point fills a niche, and fills it adequately...but used for a common beater, it very may well bite if the owner neglects to perform periodic inspection.

Nasty
August 17, 2010, 10:12 PM
Umm...the Charter Bulldog Pug in .44 Special I have is stainless steel.

Where are you getting that it should not be fired often?

While I don't expect it to last as long as say my S&W 696, I have several thousand rounds through the pipe so far with no issues whatsoever.

You're comparing stainless steel to zinc castings now?

JHK94
August 18, 2010, 12:11 AM
Umm...the Charter Bulldog Pug in .44 Special I have is stainless steel.


I believe that the frame on (at least the older ones....I dunno if something has changed recently) those is alloy, not steel. That's why they are so light.

jmstevens2
August 18, 2010, 12:23 AM
Tuner,
With all due respect to your point, it appears that the overwhelming majority of actual Hi Point owners claim to have put thousands of rounds through their respective pistols, and claim to have experienced an extrememly low failure rate. My own conversations with other HP owners, and gun store employees seem to bear this out as an accurate assessment. It would appear that whatever the composite material make up of the parts they use is, they do not have an abnormal or dangerous wear pattern. That's not conjecture. I'd say it's as close to fact as can be claimed.
Another thing is, don't confuse the carbines and pistols, they are totally different animals. I don't carry my pistols, actually I seldom shoot them, but the carbines, it is a great weapon and is next to my bed.

s2mason
August 18, 2010, 12:40 AM
Inspecting a hard use gun for signs of impending failure is part of the program. Every thousand rounds for a zinc casting wouldn't be unreasonable, and it could save an eye.

Point taken, but I still don't equate the actual failure rate to be markedly different than other pistols. In any case, I'd hope anyone putting that many rounds through their pistol would be wearing safety glasses:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

s2mason
August 18, 2010, 12:44 AM
Another thing is, don't confuse the carbines and pistols, they are totally different animals. I don't carry my pistols, actually I seldom shoot them, but the carbines, it is a great weapon and is next to my bed.

I'm well aware of the difference, but hey.....thanks......I guess:confused::confused:

Nasty
August 18, 2010, 06:35 AM
I believe that the frame on (at least the older ones....I dunno if something has changed recently) those is alloy, not steel. That's why they are so light.

Nope...the Bulldogs have always been carbon steel or 400 series stainless. No zinc, no aluminum, no plastic.

Hamsen
August 22, 2010, 12:57 AM
I was browsing the Hi Point forum and saw someone
found a way to add optic sights to his c9.

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/70/l_eef58653853849adab67fd4ad4d21ec3.jpg

http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/119/l_2459a8ffb7df47dea74742d30cd0a422.jpg

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/145/l_0fc6f9f0a76040b4bf1d03554fbfdd2f.jpg

http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/127/l_40bf908f3229477c8d4cdb18f4160a8d.jpg

Think he might have screwed up his rear sights though.

Dionysusigma
August 24, 2010, 01:27 PM
So... is the reviewing process over, then? Nothing new from Justin, either here, or on his blog. :confused:

christcorp
August 24, 2010, 07:07 PM
But hey, I would never say that unless one can afford a Sig 226 they should save and wait. All I'm saying is that there are alternatives out there. RELIABLE alternatives that don't require 500 rounds of break-in.

My Colt 1911 brand new did.
I little bit of exaggeration, I think. I don't see people talking about requiring 500 rounds of breaking in a hi-point. And as I already mentioned, if you don't plan on putting at least 3-4 boxes of ammo 150-200 rounds through a NEW TO YOU gun that you plan on using for self or home defense, then there is no sense discussing this subject. That is totally irresponsible to yourself and those who you're intending on protecting. I don't care if it's a glock, Springer 1911, colt, Sig, or H&K. That SAME 200 rounds you are using to test the gun, accuracy, becoming accustomed to, etc... can double as the same "Break in" ammo required. Matter of fact, most individuals don't even need 200 rounds to break in. So this whole think about spending money on "Break in" is pure B.S. If you're not shooting 150-200 rounds to get accustomed to the weapon and determine your capabilities and accuracy with it, then there is no debate here. That's purely irresponsible.

s2mason
August 24, 2010, 07:28 PM
I little bit of exaggeration, I think. I don't see people talking about requiring 500 rounds of breaking in a hi-point. And as I already mentioned, if you don't plan on putting at least 3-4 boxes of ammo 150-200 rounds through a NEW TO YOU gun that you plan on using for self or home defense, then there is no sense discussing this subject. That is totally irresponsible to yourself and those who you're intending on protecting. I don't care if it's a glock, Springer 1911, colt, Sig, or H&K. That SAME 200 rounds you are using to test the gun, accuracy, becoming accustomed to, etc... can double as the same "Break in" ammo required. Matter of fact, most individuals don't even need 200 rounds to break in. So this whole think about spending money on "Break in" is pure B.S. If you're not shooting 150-200 rounds to get accustomed to the weapon and determine your capabilities and accuracy with it, then there is no debate here. That's purely irresponsible.

You got that one right..... What difference does it make whether the gun cost $10 or $10K? Break in and assimilation are NECESSARY in any context. To think an HP requires more "break in" than another gun, based on the context the poster was using, is irresponsible and just plain ignorant.

1911Tuner
August 24, 2010, 07:34 PM
Break-in for what purpose? To seat everything and knock the rough edges off...sure.
In hopes that any functional issues will correct themselves and make the gun reliable...

Sheepdip.

The gun was designed to function. If it's designed and built correctly...it will function. It doesn't have a choice. It's a machine.

christcorp
August 25, 2010, 06:26 PM
Definitely true tuner, but in that "Seat everything and knock the rough edges off" part, different guns will take a different number of rounds. The first Hi-Point I bought, took about 3-4 magazines full before there were no more ejecting problems. A kel-tec I have, that was brand new, needed about 50 rounds before there were no more feeding issues. A brand new Springer 1911 had about 5-6 stovepipes in the first 4-5 magazine full. After that, it worked perfectly. Each gun is different. If you think these "Issues" with feeding or ejecting are "Functional Defects" and should never be expected in a new gun, I will most definitely, but respectfully, disagree. I've been shooting for about 40 years. For 20 of those years, I worked part time in CATM in the military. We worked on countless of brand new, out of the box weapons. M-16, 1911, m9, etc... To say that none of these guns didn't require some rounds through them to sometimes take care of feeding or ejection issues would be very naive. Does every single new gun in the world require a break in period to work out ejection and feeding problems? Definitely not. And there are PLENTY OF PEOPLE on the hi-point forums who will specifically ask about the "Break-In" period, because they DIDN'T ENCOUNTER ANY functional issues from shot #1. You logic would therefor apply that a brand new car can specifically start off out the lot doing 80mph on a 1500 mile trip. Yes, it most likely will. But no manufacturer recommends to do that. Yet, it's a machine. If you buy a new gun, and you don't encounter ANY feeding or ejection issues from day one, then that is fantastic. But if you do encounter some initially, that is not unreasonable. And those "rough edges" you speak of, many times in the reason for ejection and feeding issues. And I've seen this in at least 5-6 TOP NAME firearms. Colt, Glock, Springer, Sig, and HK. Probably more, but I have seen first hand on guns of these manufacturers where the first few magazines may be questionable.

And that goes hand in hand with my 2nd point. You should automatically be putting 150-200 rounds through ANY new gun, simply for familiarization and accuracy training. And if a person ISN'T doing that, then I believe they are being irresponsible. And if you are training/familiarizing/etc... with 150-200 rounds, then those first few mags or so should take care of your break in as well as learning the recoil and such. So the break in issue, really isn't an issue. Of course, if after say 50-100 rounds, that pistol isn't operating as reliable and dependable as designed, advertised, and expected; then there's most like a problem that needs to be addressed. And while I don't have a firm number of exactly how many pistols I'd shot that took a few magazine worth of shot ammo to take care of feeding and ejection issues, I will say that it's not that uncommon. Then again, I can honestly say that I've shot/tested/worked on more than 500 pistols and rifles.

Ex
January 15, 2011, 08:22 PM
I hear so many opposing comments on Hi-points. As said previously, most are from price tag snobs, or people who have never owned one.

I own 2 Glocks, 2 Rugers, a Sig, an American Derriger, and a High-Point C9. Yes, HPs are ugly. The stock rear sight was replaced immediately with a machined adjustable model.

Is it reliable? Very. Now have ~700 rounds through it. 1 round from each of the first 4 mags failed to move up the ramp correctly into the chamber. (My Sig definitely did this, but with 7 out of the first 80 rounds).

Since the first 4 mags, it has been rock solid and not missed a lick. My replacement rear sight was machined by a local guy who does it for fun and hobby ($30).

Do I like my Glocks better? Yes! Would I consider buying another High-Point? Yes! There are lots of pro-HP comments in this thread from people who own/use them and have presented sound reasoning for their positive comments regarding HP.

Bottom line, you want a pistol that will absolutely never have a mis-feed? Get a wheel gun!!!! Otherwise, actually try a HP before spouting about how bad they are!

Have included photos of the replacement rear sight and the polish job (photo swiped from the guy I got the idea from lol).

End rant!

Justin
January 15, 2011, 09:07 PM
So... is the reviewing process over, then? Nothing new from Justin, either here, or on his blog.

Unfortunately, the test, along with most of my regular shooting, had to go on hiatus due to a rather large freelance motion graphics/ video editing gig that fell out of the sky and in to my lap. From late August to early November I was basically working 80+ hour work weeks with very little time to get to the range.

The time I did spend at the range was almost all rifle shooting.

Then I had about two weeks off, and got called for yet another freelance job, plus I was in the throes of finishing up some projects at my regular work.

Long story short, All work and no play make Justin a dull boy.

In regards to the Hi-Point throwdown, I do plan to revive it as summer approaches and there are more matches to attend.

FWIW, I did opt to purchase the gun that was sent to me for T&E.

mcdonl
January 15, 2011, 09:13 PM
Justin, GOOD FOR YOU!! It is good to hear success stories in such a turbulent time. Fun will also be there, take the work when you can!!

Leroy

Justin
January 15, 2011, 09:51 PM
Thanks! I'm really hoping that this leads to further freelance opportunities with both this outfit and others.

jmstevens2
January 17, 2011, 02:25 PM
I little bit of exaggeration, I think. I don't see people talking about requiring 500 rounds of breaking in a hi-point. And as I already mentioned, if you don't plan on putting at least 3-4 boxes of ammo 150-200 rounds through a NEW TO YOU gun that you plan on using for self or home defense, then there is no sense discussing this subject. That is totally irresponsible to yourself and those who you're intending on protecting. I don't care if it's a glock, Springer 1911, colt, Sig, or H&K. That SAME 200 rounds you are using to test the gun, accuracy, becoming accustomed to, etc... can double as the same "Break in" ammo required. Matter of fact, most individuals don't even need 200 rounds to break in. So this whole think about spending money on "Break in" is pure B.S. If you're not shooting 150-200 rounds to get accustomed to the weapon and determine your capabilities and accuracy with it, then there is no debate here. That's purely irresponsible.
If you notice the time that that was posted, ammo in that quantity was hard to get. And with the amount of firearms and pistol use that I have, 100 rounds to see that it works is more than enough, unless it is a bizzare firing system.
I own all if the firearms that HiPoint makes with the exception of the C9 and .380. The pistols I just do not care for. The biggest problem I have had is the Viral attitude of many of the HP owners that I have come across. Many buy it for the right reasons and are fine, there are some that buy them because of the price and are straight up dirtbags. I will not go to HiPoints forum any more because of the caustic attitude the majority of the vocal ones have.
I am not saying HP owners are dirtbags, most are not, but many dirtbags and wannabes buy them because their allowance from mommy limits what they can invest. They make the guns look bad when the gun did not deserve it. Grown ups like them because they are a good plinker or truck gun that will take a beating.

1911Tuner
January 17, 2011, 04:52 PM
if you don't plan on putting at least 3-4 boxes of ammo 150-200 rounds through a NEW TO YOU gun that you plan on using for self or home defense, then there is no sense discussing this subject.

You'd probably be shocked to know the number of people who have done just that.
I'd be afraid to hazard a guess how many Smith & Wesson Model 10s that were bought...fired 6 times...and left in a nightstand for years or even decades without firing another shot, and...when and if the moment of truth came to that house...performed just fine.

Ditto for the number of (Name the pistol/revolver) buyers/owners who have done the same thing.

Hard for active shooters to grasp, but there are a lot of gun owners out there who really have no interest in the gun other than as an emergency tool. They don't care to go shoot it, and they don't have any desire to cut their split times or learn to speed reload. All they bought it for was to have on hand in case they needed it.

Deltaboy
January 17, 2011, 09:00 PM
Glad you got some solid work Justin ! Get back to this test of Hi-Points when you can.

If you enjoyed reading about "The Hi-Point Throwdown" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!